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I have been reading through some threads and found some interesting discussions that got me thinking about something, and I was wondering if anyone else has thought about it.

I seem to be more at peace, more open, by coming to the realization that people are inherently "disappointing" and that this is OK.
Of course, I have thought about this, in the past, with undertones of anger and sadness.

There is a female T that I have seen twice (I can't afford to see her right now, but if I did, it would be once a month at most) ...that said the same thing, almost out of the blue: "People are disappointing. It's natural". I felt some grief, but I also felt lighter somehow. I have met a few people with loyalty and integrity, but much of it comes down to what was discussed in depth on the post about the word CARE. (which was a VERY interesting conversation!)

Do people really care? Do I care? How much care am I capable of? And how many people have I disappointed? How separate are we, as much as people talk about us being "ONE" entity?

Hard to explain. It sounds cliche, but I have accepted the impermanence of most things, (this is not to say that I'm not still attached to some of the most silly things) and I am starting to feel that being alone isn't so bad. I'm not feeling as lonely. I don't seek as much external acceptance. It's more of an inside job. I'm not saying that I was overly-dependent on others in the recent past, it was the opposite- I was so used to being alone and independent that it became a preference. It still is, largely, my preference.

I'm not saying that this is good or bad. I don't think that there is any right or wrong way to go about finding one's place on the continuum between attachment and detachment. But I am finding that detachment (in the good sense, the more Buddhist sense) suits me well. At least, I think it does.

If I want to be honest with myself, I'm not entirely sure that I won't ever feel the same depression I felt a few years ago, which was based on a rather large feeling of loneliness, despair, futility, and death. As in, when I stop moving/working/distracting, I fall into a "IS THIS ALL THERE IS??? WHY DO I WORK SO HARD?? Fuck this all.. I'm exhausted..." funk. I can't guarantee that this won't hit me again like a ton of bricks, particularly if I am not constantly distracting myself with my work and with sports. Of course, I'm doing all the "right" things- yoga, meditation, getting out in nature, etc.

But sometimes life is just what it is, darkness happens. And I don't want to make the same mistake I made with Ex T- who saw me as someone completely different from who I really was, lacked a fundamental respect for me as a separate person, and clearly projected onto me. But I also was seeking sort of "union". Even with clear boundaries, many people seek out this "union". I actually went into therapy to learn how to truly be alone and accept it, but instead got pulled into a big "attachment game" and now feel that it is time to focus on my original goal: to be at peace with myself, to know that the only person I can rely on is myself, but still be able to give, and know that this is NOT a pathology, but the way I choose to live.

Now here is the odd part: At times, I also desire to feel certain "bond" with a person (not necessarily a T) simply because we are able to recognize and respect each other as separate individuals, but also create a synergy based on what we both bring to the table.

Has anyone ever felt this way?

And how have you adjusted your expectations?
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Hi number9,

Interesting post. Hope I am reading you correctly. It seems like you are saying. . . therapy has been a disappointment, and you suspect it's because people are inherently disappointing, and you think that there are other, maybe better, ways that you can attain your goals for healing and growth (or at least finding a measure of peace and acceptance) without therapy?

I think I would tend to agree. There are a lot of ways people can heal. Relationships are one of them. Good relationships can be healing and growth producing, attachment is part of relationship, and therapy provides an opportunity where all of that can develop. However, it appears to be the sad truth that navigating the world of mental health professionals can be a mine field. It can be good, but it isn't always. I wouldn't fault anyone for choosing to avoid it altogether.

Just some thoughts. Let me know if I'm totally misreading you.
Hi heldincompassion:

Nope! good thoughts. There is a lot to the message, lots to explore, would be fun to hear about it from all here, or more from you.

Overall, I'm feeling lighter and happier being alone, and I hope it will last. Flying without a safety net, feels ok, but it really is an odd feeling that I can't think about for too long. It's like walking on a tightrope above the Grand Canyon.. I'm better off just putting one foot in front of the other than looking down. And of course, nobody can help me on the tightrope, it's all me.
Number9,
Acceptance of oneself and relying on onesself is the goal. What is it I always hear people say "you can't be there for others until you're first there for yourself" or something to that effect. I know you've got the right idea and you are essentially living it outwardly but maybe you haven't fully realized it inwardly...we are all blind to some extent/enough to our inward stuff I believe that we often can't fully realize who we are.

You already knew yourself better when you went to that male T who verbally abused you but I think you needed to just be heard and validated but he assumed other stuff...as I'm told "you know yourself better than anyone" which is true. You were wise to save yourself...sometimes T's have the same agenda for everyone in the beginning but the male T you saw was not willing to see that so maybe he is the one with the pathology and he couldn't see beyond "one size fits all"...just my opinion.

My very best friend are that way "recognizing and respecting" each other as individuals. I had to adjust my expectations because she is extremely down to earth and everything you would want in a friend...and when I first met her in the 97' I guess I was not recognizing the opportunity...luckily though I was in therapy with a male at that time and learned a lot and was thankful for it because I would have missed out on the best friendship ever had I not seen "my" issues that were "young."

Anyways, just my two cents! Number9...this is a really good post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Hopeful
Number9

quote:
I seem to be more at peace, more open,


So great to read this.

quote:
Now here is the odd part: At times, I also desire to feel certain "bond" with a person (not necessarily a T) simply because we are able to recognize and respect each other as separate individuals, but also create a synergy based on what we both bring to the table.

Has anyone ever felt this way?

And how have you adjusted your expectations?


Are you asking if you can balance your desire to bond with more realistic expectations that you will probably be disappointed?
Hi number9
Its only today I saw your OP [opening post]
I have to say I do see what you are saying about some T's doing their own thing and drawing you in to a set up they think well work for you only to get to see you in the wrong light. At lest that is one way I interpret what you write. Also I have to say I am very happy you are finding some peace with your life. Its true that when we find some one like a T who will talk straight out to us we offten find what they say to be true. people are dissapointing that is true.
Latstly i too would like to bond with certain people but alas have too many issues to iron out
Anyhow best off luck
ND
quote:
Overall, I'm feeling lighter and happier being alone, and I hope it will last. Flying without a safety net, feels ok, but it really is an odd feeling that I can't think about for too long. It's like walking on a tightrope above the Grand Canyon.. I'm better off just putting one foot in front of the other than looking down. And of course, nobody can help me on the tightrope, it's all me.


Maybe you are feeling the slightly scary sense of intoxication that comes from realizing you are free to interpret your own experiences in your own way? After working with the invalidating and poorly matched T you have I could imagine that could be felt as quite a relief! I know I've felt similarly when I've pulled away from relationships where people were distorting my perceptions. There is nothing more crazy making.

I think with a good T, or at least one that is a good match, you have the sense that they are helping you to see more clearly even when they are confronting you on stuff. It's too bad that there can't be a guarantee the relationship will shake out ideally before it starts. :/

These are just some thoughts loosely inspired by your post. Please disregard if they do not apply. Smiler
Hopeful:

quote:
You already knew yourself better when you went to that male T who verbally abused you but I think you needed to just be heard and validated but he assumed other stuff...as I'm told "you know yourself better than anyone" which is true.


Yes. That was the essence of the healing I needed. To be recognized, seen, validated, to feel as if I had an ally

Liese,

quote:
Are you asking if you can balance your desire to bond with more realistic expectations that you will probably be disappointed?


Yes! Very much so. This goes beyond relationship difficulties. My Ex H and I just grew apart, and there was much grief. Watching my mother grieve my father's death... she too, chooses to be alone. Friends move away, people die, move on, or we fail to live up to THEIR expectations. I'm sure there is more here... but basically, I feel as if I'm 46 going on 86 at times. I guess I can't deny that there is some sadness attached to it as well...


Nigeldaniel:

quote:
I have to say I do see what you are saying about some T's doing their own thing and drawing you in to a set up they think well work for you only to get to see you in the wrong light.


The whole thing did feel staged and dishonest, in retrospect.

Do you think it is possible to bond with people knowing that it is probably going to be impermanent anyway? (Also knowing that I don't know what your "issues" are Smiler

Wow, I can't even go to a wedding right now. It seems like a false promise, a fairy tale sold to young women (and men). I don't mean this to sound bitter, and of course, I don't mention this often. But.. nothing lasts forever. To say that anything is going to last forever is unrealistic. My mother and I had a good discussion about this. Still, it is a philosophical debate, not an absolute truth.

TAS: Thanks! Thoughts?

HIC: THAT is an interesting way to put it! Hmmm. yes, perhaps a bit of intoxication! The feeling is particularly potent for a person who values freedom as much as I do. Having one's perceptions distorted really does suck, for lack of a better way to put it. Feels a bit like a violation.

I don't allow therapists to confront me, especially now that I have learned so much from my therapeutic experience and from the research that I have done. They can give me their opinion, but confronting, to me, is really about someone imposing their own "stuff" onto me. I'm me, the other person is separate and confronting is appropriate only when someone is crossing a line or boundary, hurting or harming another. But, again, that is my truth, not The Truth.

So when I think about how we are all one, as human beings, it makes sense. On the other hand, the more I contemplate separateness, the more sense it makes. Not in the sense of keeping the ego intact.. (and what is SO bad about that, come to think of it? Hmmmm) but in being at peace in recognizing that others are not extensions of ourselves, and being able to enjoy others for who they truly are.

Also, I believe that this is an essential place to get to in order to prepare for death. edit: the natural, inevitable kind

I think a lot. Smiler
quote:
There is a female T...that said... "People are disappointing. It's natural". I felt some grief, but I also felt lighter somehow.

This has been something I've struggled with the last year or two as well, and acceptance is something I have been working on. It's not easy for sure.....some of it for me has had to do with the pervasiveness of the McFriendship culture, like facebook friendships, etc. where catching up with long lost friends many times takes the form of a solitary wall post with little to no meaningful interaction (and then ignoring any and all messages).

What I've tried to do, is just be thankful for the positives I've gotten from those relationships, however fleeting, or superficial they have seemed to be. It has helped to reduce the sting of some disappointing interactions (in person and on fb), but it's not easy, and I'm a long ways from being able to say that I can give other people advice on how to do that.

The synergy you mentioned is something I've felt before, but only rarely after college. And I think it's very normal to want that! And yes I firmly believe we can bond while acknowledging that the bond will probably fade or be broken. I also think that it's just easier for some people to form these types of bonds than others (and be ok with their fleeting nature), and that I'm probably not as good at it as others. Maybe it's a skill that needs developing like other skills.
This is so cool.. I completely forgot about how I feel about FB and McFriendships (LOVE that term!) as well as how difficult it is to connect with anyone these days.

I'm not ready to give advice either, I hear you. My positive thoughts are not constant, not by a long shot. Still convincing myself.

quote:
The synergy you mentioned is something I've felt before, but only rarely after college. And I think it's very normal to want that! And yes I firmly believe we can bond while acknowledging that the bond will probably fade or be broken. I also think that it's just easier for some people to form these types of bonds than others (and be ok with their fleeting nature), and that I'm probably not as good at it as others. Maybe it's a skill that needs developing like other skills.


and this.. is exactly the kind of substantial "stuff" I like to think about and talk about and discuss with others. Let me give that some more thought... I want to say more than just "I'm totally with you there!"
((((NUMBER9))))

quote:
Wow, I can't even go to a wedding right now. It seems like a false promise, a fairy tale sold to young women (and men). I don't mean this to sound bitter, and of course, I don't mention this often. But.. nothing lasts forever. To say that anything is going to last forever is unrealistic.


I've often felt the same way. Until recently, I haven't been willing to even contemplate getting attached to other people. It's not something I'm working towards but am more open to. Maybe it has to do with finally grieving all my unresolved losses. I don't know. Or maybe it's all those meds! LOL!

But just wanted to reach out to you because I know how awful it feels to feel as though you just couldn't tolerate another loss. At least, that's what I am guessing you are feeling.
quote:
in being at peace in recognizing that others are not extensions of ourselves, and being able to enjoy others for who they truly are.


Also wanted to say I like how you phrased that and agree that it is probably an essential place to get to before The End. If we haven't learned to differentiate, departure could be felt as terrifying but we know from countless examples that it doesn't have to be that way. Good thoughts, if a bit sobering. I hadn't really considered that aspect of separation/detachment before.

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