((((((BB)))))) I'm sorry you haven't heard back yet. It's so hard when feeling T doesn't care puts you back in that helpless, unloved child place.
Thanks STRMS-
here where I am, the government pays for social workers, so you can get one to come into your house even if you are not low income, and give you help- and some are T's. It just feels yucky to me.
here where I am, the government pays for social workers, so you can get one to come into your house even if you are not low income, and give you help- and some are T's. It just feels yucky to me.
thanks yaku. it is hard. I feel scared and alone and I feel bad for my kids as I'm not much of a mom to them lately.
quote:Originally posted by blackbird:
Thanks STRMS-
here where I am, the government pays for social workers, so you can get one to come into your house even if you are not low income, and give you help- and some are T's. It just feels yucky to me.
Ah, interesting. I didn't know that. It's okay to need help even though I understand it isn't the way you would choose to go about it.
yeah, I know- there is just something about the way it is done that seems so boundary-violating. *My* boundaries.
BB - I understand about the needing explicit permission. Even if I have something I desperately want to talk to T about, I can't bring it up. I have to write or hint about it and then if HE brings it up, I feel I have permission to care/talk about it. Perhaps you are struggling with the same thing. I have a hard time even disagreeing with concepts my T brings up. Not that I disagree and can't tell him, but I just feel whatever I thought/felt before he gave his opinion is wrong and he is right. I have identified this to T and I think he has changed how he communicates with me as a result to try to lessen my identity merging issues (I don't know if that's what they are, but that's what popped into my head). Maybe you should bring this up to T directly and tell him you are going along with things, because you're struggling to even have your own thoughts about what is best for you and not because it feels like it is working for you.
thanks Frosty, I think he is not responding because he is too busy, and because I've overused email, although he never has said that, and I told him not to respond as I could not afford to pay for a response. The last email cost me almost 40 dollars for 15 minutes of his time. If my h finds out he will not be happy.
He probably wouldn't care what I did, be disappointed in me or not, it's all up to me what I do, he won't guide me- which feels like what they call a reenactment of past wounds. Maybe the truth is that I would be disappointed in myself. I guess I've always assumed that doing the hardest thing for me is what is the best and most loving thing. I can't take the self-hatred I would feel if I did it differently.
He probably wouldn't care what I did, be disappointed in me or not, it's all up to me what I do, he won't guide me- which feels like what they call a reenactment of past wounds. Maybe the truth is that I would be disappointed in myself. I guess I've always assumed that doing the hardest thing for me is what is the best and most loving thing. I can't take the self-hatred I would feel if I did it differently.
thanks Yaku, you are very wise. I should try to communicate that to him sometime. I appreciate it. My H is up now, I have to go. Thanks everyone. Sorry to be a drain, not much to give right now.
BB
BB
quote:Sorry to be a drain, not much to give right now.
You are most emphatically NOT a drain. You are giving so constantly, I don't think you realize that you are doing it. It must be like breathing to you! Boy, do we struggle with the same things. I won't ask you to take care of yourself...just, if you can, please allow yourself to be taken care of, even if only by your Father God, who we can only approach in the reality that we are unable to give Him ANYTHING except surrender to the reality of our need for Him. ((((((((((((((((((BB))))))))))))))))))
(((((BB)))))
I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said BB, just sending good thoughts and lots of hugs your way today...
I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said BB, just sending good thoughts and lots of hugs your way today...
whoa, I do find that to be quite the price for an email... something he can do from any location on such flexible time... argh...
I'm so sorry for the pain you are in. You are not a drag at all.
Why do you think you think that you have assumed the hardest thing is the best thing? (oh, I say this knowing I am so terrible at being kind to my own self - and I'm not entire sure why myself.)
You deserve kindness, grace, love, care, compassion... You are not a drain at all. Maybe see this as a chance to receive some care and compassion on the forum without *needing* to give back. (and you do give back much, even by sharing your own battles, and you have given much.) Unconditional care it one of the hardest things for me to accept for myself from anyone.
One thing that helps me get through a
"loss" in a relationship, in closeness, or attachment, (or even an entire relationship), is to connect with other relationships. I think it's kind of somewhat like that idea that when a dog dies, sometimes people tend to get a puppy right away... Ok, Ts are way different than puppies and dogs, but it's the idea that the need is still there. Your need to connect, to be known, to be cared about and guided, like your T does, is still there, and maybe, while you sort all of this out with your T, you can reach out (like you are to us) and connect with people and get a small amount of that need met along the way, or at least lighten the load a little? Maybe a local T would help just temporarily, just as a place to connect... I dunno...
We have the social workers in our area too - I tried a T once who came to my apartment. It was just way too much. The worst part was that I couldn't just leave the appointment early! I was already home!
But maybe there might be a local T that could help fill in a small amount of the gap in the meantime. And friends, us! keep reaching out.
no need to respond, my post is probably totally off the mark anyhow.
but thank you for leaning us on. you give us a gift when you do that and share your battle and struggle. I dunno how to explain it, it just is.
keep posting (if it helps) and keep hanging in there.
thinking of you and praying for you,
~jane
I'm so sorry for the pain you are in. You are not a drag at all.
quote:I guess I've always assumed that doing the hardest thing for me is what is the best and most loving thing. I can't take the self-hatred I would feel if I did it differently.
Why do you think you think that you have assumed the hardest thing is the best thing? (oh, I say this knowing I am so terrible at being kind to my own self - and I'm not entire sure why myself.)
You deserve kindness, grace, love, care, compassion... You are not a drain at all. Maybe see this as a chance to receive some care and compassion on the forum without *needing* to give back. (and you do give back much, even by sharing your own battles, and you have given much.) Unconditional care it one of the hardest things for me to accept for myself from anyone.
One thing that helps me get through a
"loss" in a relationship, in closeness, or attachment, (or even an entire relationship), is to connect with other relationships. I think it's kind of somewhat like that idea that when a dog dies, sometimes people tend to get a puppy right away... Ok, Ts are way different than puppies and dogs, but it's the idea that the need is still there. Your need to connect, to be known, to be cared about and guided, like your T does, is still there, and maybe, while you sort all of this out with your T, you can reach out (like you are to us) and connect with people and get a small amount of that need met along the way, or at least lighten the load a little? Maybe a local T would help just temporarily, just as a place to connect... I dunno...
We have the social workers in our area too - I tried a T once who came to my apartment. It was just way too much. The worst part was that I couldn't just leave the appointment early! I was already home!
But maybe there might be a local T that could help fill in a small amount of the gap in the meantime. And friends, us! keep reaching out. no need to respond, my post is probably totally off the mark anyhow.
but thank you for leaning us on. you give us a gift when you do that and share your battle and struggle. I dunno how to explain it, it just is.
keep posting (if it helps) and keep hanging in there.
thinking of you and praying for you,
~jane
Beebs, I'm so sorry for you that this is all going so badly right now. It is a very difficult spot for you. I feel concerned for you, and I don't know what to suggest to help.
I know that if I were a T and a client told me not to respond to an email, I would not respond, even if I cared, even if I thought it was important - because once that is said it would actually be a violation to respond. This is not a punishment. It is essential that clients know - deep down, consciously and unconsciously - that their articulated wishes will be respected - even if they feel conflicted.
(An example - my T has been very careful with our EMDR to tell me that if I want to stop, I say "Stop", and I can hold up my hand too. This means I can say "I feel like stopping" or "I don't like it" or "I wish I could go home" and he would check that, rather than assuming I mean "Stop". This gives me freedom to have and express conflicted emotions, while also being clear about my choice.)
But this bind is so tight also because he has established this boundary with the emails. And I think it is a shame he has been wobbly on that boundary in the past, because it leaves you unsure about whether he will be wobbly about it again, and unsure if there is anything you can do or say that will make a difference.
I think you have to assume that the boundary is now firm. And it feels intolerable, and I am actually really pleased to hear you say "I can't live like this anymore, I have to do something different." I quite agree. I don't know what the something different is, but this is a really important recognition. You shouldn't have to live in this terrible pain, and I am *very* glad to hear you say "no" to it, and to begin to think of what next.
I was confused about the social workers too - are the Ts you contacted the same as the social workers, or different? Is the money too much an obstacle to see those local Ts?
Love,
Jones
I know that if I were a T and a client told me not to respond to an email, I would not respond, even if I cared, even if I thought it was important - because once that is said it would actually be a violation to respond. This is not a punishment. It is essential that clients know - deep down, consciously and unconsciously - that their articulated wishes will be respected - even if they feel conflicted.
(An example - my T has been very careful with our EMDR to tell me that if I want to stop, I say "Stop", and I can hold up my hand too. This means I can say "I feel like stopping" or "I don't like it" or "I wish I could go home" and he would check that, rather than assuming I mean "Stop". This gives me freedom to have and express conflicted emotions, while also being clear about my choice.)
But this bind is so tight also because he has established this boundary with the emails. And I think it is a shame he has been wobbly on that boundary in the past, because it leaves you unsure about whether he will be wobbly about it again, and unsure if there is anything you can do or say that will make a difference.
I think you have to assume that the boundary is now firm. And it feels intolerable, and I am actually really pleased to hear you say "I can't live like this anymore, I have to do something different." I quite agree. I don't know what the something different is, but this is a really important recognition. You shouldn't have to live in this terrible pain, and I am *very* glad to hear you say "no" to it, and to begin to think of what next.
I was confused about the social workers too - are the Ts you contacted the same as the social workers, or different? Is the money too much an obstacle to see those local Ts?
Love,
Jones
Thank you so much for tall the amazing support. I'm overwhelmed by all of your kindness, and all of your compassionate responses.
I want to come back and respond, as best I can, but for now I am going to try and sleep because I it's been a real long day.
I am doing much better, although still mentally confused, emotionally I am very fine, just because my T did write back to me, a short email assuring me he is not angry with me and will respond in a couple of days. I feel like a *completely different person* since reading that email- it is so strange. I feel fine now, just fine- knowing he isn't angry, and hasn't forgotten me. Truly fine. So I need to think. how many more times do I want to go through this agony, and what was it again that I was so upset about?
I will be back to respond to your such compassionate posts, I thank you as I was really in agony and could not have got through it without you guys- and let you know what happened with the other T's I contacted with just a short list of questions. Thank you for telling me I wasn't a drain, because I really thought I was being.
Love you all,
BB
I want to come back and respond, as best I can, but for now I am going to try and sleep because I it's been a real long day.
I am doing much better, although still mentally confused, emotionally I am very fine, just because my T did write back to me, a short email assuring me he is not angry with me and will respond in a couple of days. I feel like a *completely different person* since reading that email- it is so strange. I feel fine now, just fine- knowing he isn't angry, and hasn't forgotten me. Truly fine. So I need to think. how many more times do I want to go through this agony, and what was it again that I was so upset about?
I will be back to respond to your such compassionate posts, I thank you as I was really in agony and could not have got through it without you guys- and let you know what happened with the other T's I contacted with just a short list of questions. Thank you for telling me I wasn't a drain, because I really thought I was being.
Love you all,
BB
quote:I feel like a *completely different person* since reading that email- it is so strange. I feel fine now, just fine- knowing he isn't angry, and hasn't forgotten me. Truly fine.
Isn't this amazing? All it takes is one short email, one voicemail, one message and we're instantly better. At least that is how it worked for me the other day when I was agonizing over a phone call. Kind of makes me feel silly for agonizing in the first place!?!
Congrats, BB. Glad you are able to release some of that tension!
I'm really grateful for the support, Yaku, Monte, R2G, Frosty, Jones, JD-everyone- did I leave anyone out? And all the previous support, as well. this thread is getting really long, so I don't want to leave anyone out, but just to let you *all* know as a group that each response here is really valued. It's been a really hard time, and I know it will continue that way, yet again but for now I am feeling better, as I say!
JD, Jones- and STRMS- gosh, I really appreciate everyone's input. JD, your reply so compassionate really helped me, thank you so much. I'm feeling really validated that you agree about the social worker. There is something about it that makes me feel deeply uncomfortable. Personal space and all of that.
Jones, I think my T will probably continue to be wobbly on this charging for every email boundary.. what choice have I given him? He professes care for me, care means that you communicate, I can't afford to communicate which I've told him, yet- I've also told him that while I can't afford to communicate, if he doesn't it means that he doesn't care- and all of that conflicting stuff is true. All of this- insisting he charge me for every mail- for valid reasons, while telling him that I can't afford to schedule sessions or email. Also true. I have a deep problem around the issue of payment, that is hard to articulate. while I wouldn't accept his care for free because I care about him and it wouldn't be fair to him, I also can't seem to accept it as caring when I have to pay to talk to someone that I need so badly, and can't afford to talk to.- it's areal catch 22, and I see my T as managing with this as best he can. I don't think he knows what the solution is. I mean- the answer is, of course to talk openly to my T about all of these issues and problems- which I cannot afford to do- there *is* the problem. Any insight from you or anyone on the issue of needing to talk but being unable to afford to talk- greatly appreciated!
The other T's I contacted, of 4 only 2 got back to me. Neither of them are affordable- one for emotional reasons, the other for financial ones. One responded curtly to my 4 short questions, saying "you ask a lot of questions." About what her policy on between session contact is with this: "I do not know what you mean by this question." The rest of her email seemed really, just *scary. so scratch that. She made me feel like a creep for contacting her. projection maybe, but I'm *not* going there, even though I can get 50 dollar sessions by going to her intern- which is considerably less than half what my T charges. The other guy was really kind and personable, and compassionate in his response- he said I can call him with questions whether I am or will ever be a client or not. And he allows between session contact, by phone, but helps his clients to work on other ways. He says that the single most important concept in therapy is attachment and teaches it. And that through it clients learn to self-regulate, which I really do not know what that means. He explained briefly his take, which is slightly different from my T's, I *think.* But again, he's not cheap, so, no- never mind. If I could continue to pay for expensive individual therapy, then I would think I should stay with my T, right? even if it is on the video conference. I don't know.
arrrg.
The most I would do with that guy, I think- is go for a consult, to see what he thinks about my situation with my T, if there is hope to progress here with my T or not, or if I am crazy to keep trying something that isn't working that great at times. My T is seems unwilling to help me with this question, except to say it is hard to say, I think you can become tangibly better, but we do not know for sure.
All that being said- it is still my T I need. His unique perspective feels like the air I breathe. I'm realizing the issue also, is that I very well may need my T and his specific approach- and his understanding of me, and my spirituality- but the lack may just be because of not meeting him in person. There are a lot of factors all in play here. I'm mentally confused about all of these different complex issues, and how they are affecting my decision to stay with my T and make progress. I'm not sure how to sort my thoughts, and that does put me in a fairly helpless position, where I am following, perhaps, the path of least resistance, since I seem to lack proper self-motivation or understanding of what is really going on in my situation. But I don't know. I really don't.. I sit down with pen and paper to try, figure it all out, and I draw a blank. It feels like an impossible math problem or something, all tangled up that I don't know how to sort because I lack the thinking skills. I don't mean I think I'm stupid- I just mean that my thinking gets disorganized, and I really do need help to sort it, but my T doesn't seem to believe that.
It does concern me that my T says to my H that he would save piles of money in counseling for me, if he would just learn how to listen and open his heart. I'm still not sure that even the most radical love of my H would help me, except with the here and now stuff- but not with learning about my unhelpful patterns and how to deal with being alone, etc. Unless my T just meant, that the counseling process wouldn't take as long, if my H was more forgiving- or something like that. idk.
Sorry this is probably kind of hard to understand. I should spend some time to clarify it so that it's more understandable, but I don't have energy right now.
so- that's my update- sorry to go on and on!
BB
JD, Jones- and STRMS- gosh, I really appreciate everyone's input. JD, your reply so compassionate really helped me, thank you so much. I'm feeling really validated that you agree about the social worker. There is something about it that makes me feel deeply uncomfortable. Personal space and all of that.
Jones, I think my T will probably continue to be wobbly on this charging for every email boundary.. what choice have I given him? He professes care for me, care means that you communicate, I can't afford to communicate which I've told him, yet- I've also told him that while I can't afford to communicate, if he doesn't it means that he doesn't care- and all of that conflicting stuff is true. All of this- insisting he charge me for every mail- for valid reasons, while telling him that I can't afford to schedule sessions or email. Also true. I have a deep problem around the issue of payment, that is hard to articulate. while I wouldn't accept his care for free because I care about him and it wouldn't be fair to him, I also can't seem to accept it as caring when I have to pay to talk to someone that I need so badly, and can't afford to talk to.- it's areal catch 22, and I see my T as managing with this as best he can. I don't think he knows what the solution is. I mean- the answer is, of course to talk openly to my T about all of these issues and problems- which I cannot afford to do- there *is* the problem. Any insight from you or anyone on the issue of needing to talk but being unable to afford to talk- greatly appreciated!
The other T's I contacted, of 4 only 2 got back to me. Neither of them are affordable- one for emotional reasons, the other for financial ones. One responded curtly to my 4 short questions, saying "you ask a lot of questions." About what her policy on between session contact is with this: "I do not know what you mean by this question." The rest of her email seemed really, just *scary. so scratch that. She made me feel like a creep for contacting her. projection maybe, but I'm *not* going there, even though I can get 50 dollar sessions by going to her intern- which is considerably less than half what my T charges. The other guy was really kind and personable, and compassionate in his response- he said I can call him with questions whether I am or will ever be a client or not. And he allows between session contact, by phone, but helps his clients to work on other ways. He says that the single most important concept in therapy is attachment and teaches it. And that through it clients learn to self-regulate, which I really do not know what that means. He explained briefly his take, which is slightly different from my T's, I *think.* But again, he's not cheap, so, no- never mind. If I could continue to pay for expensive individual therapy, then I would think I should stay with my T, right? even if it is on the video conference. I don't know.
arrrg.
The most I would do with that guy, I think- is go for a consult, to see what he thinks about my situation with my T, if there is hope to progress here with my T or not, or if I am crazy to keep trying something that isn't working that great at times. My T is seems unwilling to help me with this question, except to say it is hard to say, I think you can become tangibly better, but we do not know for sure.
All that being said- it is still my T I need. His unique perspective feels like the air I breathe. I'm realizing the issue also, is that I very well may need my T and his specific approach- and his understanding of me, and my spirituality- but the lack may just be because of not meeting him in person. There are a lot of factors all in play here. I'm mentally confused about all of these different complex issues, and how they are affecting my decision to stay with my T and make progress. I'm not sure how to sort my thoughts, and that does put me in a fairly helpless position, where I am following, perhaps, the path of least resistance, since I seem to lack proper self-motivation or understanding of what is really going on in my situation. But I don't know. I really don't.. I sit down with pen and paper to try, figure it all out, and I draw a blank. It feels like an impossible math problem or something, all tangled up that I don't know how to sort because I lack the thinking skills. I don't mean I think I'm stupid- I just mean that my thinking gets disorganized, and I really do need help to sort it, but my T doesn't seem to believe that.
It does concern me that my T says to my H that he would save piles of money in counseling for me, if he would just learn how to listen and open his heart. I'm still not sure that even the most radical love of my H would help me, except with the here and now stuff- but not with learning about my unhelpful patterns and how to deal with being alone, etc. Unless my T just meant, that the counseling process wouldn't take as long, if my H was more forgiving- or something like that. idk.
Sorry this is probably kind of hard to understand. I should spend some time to clarify it so that it's more understandable, but I don't have energy right now.
so- that's my update- sorry to go on and on!
BB
BB, I'm really sorry you haven't had better luck with the 4 T's you've contacted. I agree that I would be scared of that one who said you ask a lot of questions. What was her point? Is she threatened or annoyed by that? Yeah, I'd probably stay away from her. And I agree that if the other guy who sounded much better is just as expensive then it takes away a big part of why you would want to switch. How long has it been since you contacted the two who haven't yet responded? It is possible they might still get back to you, right?
I don't have any helpful solutions for your conflict on the expensive email & therapy charges. I just want to say that it would be really hard for me too. My T doesn't charge for texts, and she probably charges half what your T charges for sessions, and yet the money issue can still get in the way, at least in my mind. Like you, I wouldn't want to take advantage of her by expecting drastically reduced or free sessions. And yet I also say to myself that I can't afford twice a week even though we've agreed that is what is best for me right now. Since I see her as a parental figure, I hate the concept that I have to buy her care because it makes it seem fake or forced, not real. Mostly I try not to think about it. Not a good answer for you, sorry!
I don't know what to think about your T's comment to your H. It seems protective of you but also over-simplistic. What does H think about that comment?
I don't have any helpful solutions for your conflict on the expensive email & therapy charges. I just want to say that it would be really hard for me too. My T doesn't charge for texts, and she probably charges half what your T charges for sessions, and yet the money issue can still get in the way, at least in my mind. Like you, I wouldn't want to take advantage of her by expecting drastically reduced or free sessions. And yet I also say to myself that I can't afford twice a week even though we've agreed that is what is best for me right now. Since I see her as a parental figure, I hate the concept that I have to buy her care because it makes it seem fake or forced, not real. Mostly I try not to think about it. Not a good answer for you, sorry!
I don't know what to think about your T's comment to your H. It seems protective of you but also over-simplistic. What does H think about that comment?
thanks MH-
Yup it's only been a few days, so definitely possible I will hear back. I have a feeling that one is slightly cheaper than my T and the other is probably about the same, but you never know unless you ask, right?
Yeah, the money thing. I used to not think about it, until this whole marital therapy thing, and not being able to afford having contact with him anymore forced it out into the open again in a big way. We'll see if he responds to my eeek
question addressing this issue or not. Talk about pushing.
Well, MH, if I was comfortable enough with my h to introduce that kind of a conversation, then I wouldn't probably be in marital therapy in the first place. I have a really big fear that in introducing this concept to my h, my h is now just being nice to me and forgiving in the hopes of saving some money. I always think that my h is secretly and covertly finding some way to exploit and use me, or to neglect my needs. I have no way of knowing whether these are projections or accurate reflection of reality. T says the only way we can find out is by doing the marriage counseling and explore these kind of questions.
aarrrrgh. confusing.
BB
quote:It is possible they might still get back to you, right?
Yup it's only been a few days, so definitely possible I will hear back. I have a feeling that one is slightly cheaper than my T and the other is probably about the same, but you never know unless you ask, right?
Yeah, the money thing. I used to not think about it, until this whole marital therapy thing, and not being able to afford having contact with him anymore forced it out into the open again in a big way. We'll see if he responds to my eeek
question addressing this issue or not. Talk about pushing. quote:I don't know what to think about your T's comment to your H. It seems protective of you but also over-simplistic. What does H think about that comment?
Well, MH, if I was comfortable enough with my h to introduce that kind of a conversation, then I wouldn't probably be in marital therapy in the first place. I have a really big fear that in introducing this concept to my h, my h is now just being nice to me and forgiving in the hopes of saving some money.
I always think that my h is secretly and covertly finding some way to exploit and use me, or to neglect my needs. I have no way of knowing whether these are projections or accurate reflection of reality. T says the only way we can find out is by doing the marriage counseling and explore these kind of questions.aarrrrgh. confusing.
BB
BB - as someone who (for some reason) is forcing herself to share with H almost every little detail about how I feel...I can definitely say it's not easy. It makes my projecting worse and sometimes confirms my fears. BUT, it also allows me to feel, "Hey, I gave it my absolute best," and if he can't accept me for me (the me I am now, not the one whose only desire was to please everyone else), at least I know it's not because I didn't try. It might not feel good in that I DO feel rejected, but it also feels a bit empowering. Or, I am realizing I have a lot more power in my relationship than I ever allowed myself to exercise, because of my compulsion to sacrifice myself into being "acceptable" to others. It's straining, but also I can feel proud of myself for it (when I'm able to escape my self-loathing for a period of time). 
I used to share all my thoughts and feelings with my h. I learned that it is not a good thing for me to do, as he gets absorbed into me. What I am looking for now is for my h to become his own person, and not need me to make him feel ok about himself. I want it to become a strong and loving adult relationship. Right now that means ignoring a lot of my h's pleas silent and not so sielnt, for me to be dishonest or fused into him. I think...but that's me. My h is...different from most men.
Very.
Very.