Hello Kashley.

It makes me sad to think you’ve been seeing your T for so long and haven’t been able to acknowledge that actually, yes, there is a relationship there. But I do get what you mean – there are times when I look at my various Ts and feel like I’m exhibiting monumental hubris daring to think that there could be any kind of ‘relationship’ between me and them, how dare I even dream that a T could WANT there to be a relationship between us let alone encourage me to form one

Emotionally I still operate on that level, but rationally, as you are describing, I accept that the therapy DOES work mostly around establishing an open trusting relationship with T and so I’ll make myself talk about ‘us’ and bring in stuff that bothers me or makes me feel good about how T is relating to me. It’s really hard and every time I do it I go away and get super paranoid. Which I then make myself go back and talk about

I’m not sure I’ve understood your post totally though, your thread title seems to indicate that you feel the relationship you do have with T feels wrong, that the relationship itself doesn’t feel right? Or am I misinterpreting here?

Anyway, of course I’m going to say the inevitable, that if you can screw yourself up to do so, try and talk to T about this Even if you broach the subject really obliquely, say, bringing up the idea of the ‘therapeutic alliance’ as an intellectual question, something like that...

(((( Kashley ))))

LL

p.s. I could go on at length about all the shame in me and my internal beliefs about not deserving and how daring to think in terms of 'us' when it comes to a T is such a hugely narcissistic and evil thing about me - but didn't want to write a huge reply. If that's what you're feeling though, I certainly relate and could talk more about it if you wanted to know that actually yeah there are others out here like that

((((KASHLEy)))))

It feels scary because it IS scary. I had been seeing my T for 3 years (although at the time every other week) before I could broach the subject with him. And it got to the point that it bothered me so much that it was either I bring it up or I leave therapy.

It was the same for me, no matter how much I knew intellectually that this was "the work" and "the fruit" of therapy, it still felt wrong and bad and everything else.

It's actually taken me a long time to let myself believe that it is a real relationship. And, so even after the initial conversation, it has taken many many conversations for it all to sink in and for me to feel secure.

So, go easy on yourself. Of course, my advice would be to bring it up. But you already knew that.

xoxo

Liese

quote:

But I feel so paralyzed by it! It feels like a crime to believe that I have any sort of relationship with her, and I don't know why. It feels wrong to talk about whether I trust her or not, whether I'm mad or not, whether I'm afraid of her. It's almost like I'm scared to admit she even exists even though I'm paying her to be there.

(((((Kashley))))) Not only can I relate, I've lived it. I was always conscious of my deep desire for a relationship where I could be fully known and wanting to be loved because for so long I really believed that ANYONE who got to know me well enough would leave. What I wasn't conscious of, but surfaced as I tried to move closer to my T was the absolute terror involved in moving closer to someone.

My T and I over time due out a very pervasive dynamic. There was a stage in my life where the only care and tenderness I could get from my father was always a precursor to the abuse. So I would be driven to him by my (normal and healthy) needs, but in the end, every time, I would be betrayed and end up hurt. I often used to disassociate so that I wouldn't retain the "bad" part and could keep my "good" father.

But what it felt like was "my God, how can I be so stupid to keep doing this, I end up abused every time but I can't help it." You can see where all kinds of judgemental messages developed. That I was responsible for abuse because I moved towards my father, that I was weak for giving into my needs, etc. It also fed the feeling that as soon as I relaxed and actually let myself feel good, the blow would fall and I would lose whatever I cherished. I still fight this one.

Because of this a LOT of shame built up around my needs for relationship and for asking for the comfort I needed. Shame is the strongest deterrent there is for human beings, so when we are attempting to avoid a behavior or feelings, they often become wrapped in shame.

I'm not sure if this fits for you, but I am wondering if you're sense of shame that you are doing something wrong by even acknowledging the relationship goes back to being betrayed in a close relationship? If you're experience in early life was of being hurt in close "caring" relationships then it WOULD feel dangerous to recognize this one.

I also found a dynamic in which expressing my needs or feelings would get me abandoned (I think my feelings were too threatening for my mom so she'd disassociate effectively leaving me on my own) or punished (my father only allowed room for his needs). So I learned to keep my feelings and needs to myself because expressing them got me into trouble. Again, this carried over into all my relationships. So for you to express your feelings about your T would be to make your needs and feelings known in the relationship and that may be a very scary thing for you to do. And if you actually acknowledge you need it, it will be taken away.

So you have to consider the source, but you sound really normal to me. I'm sorry, these are difficult feelings to negotiate. And here's the worst part, the only way to break this shame is to do exactly what it's telling you not too. Despite how terrifying it is, you need to express all of this to your therapist. If this is based on your experiences when young, the only way to work through it is for you to do the terrifying thing and open up about your needs and feelings and be met with a different response. From everything you've ever said about your T, I believe you're in safe hands. But despite what you know cognitively (that she's safe), on an emotional level, she's going to feel anything but. This is the hellish bind my T often referred to and what makes healing from these kinds of injuries so difficult. But you're going to be OK, Kashley. You have been very courageous and working really hard and you'll continue to do so.

AG

Thanks for the responses.

LL,

Sorry if what I wrote was confusing. Both things that you are talking about feel wrong - it feels wrong to both have the relationship AND acknowledge it. And I guess what I mean by acknowledgement is that I'm afraid of admitting that the relationship exists both to myself but, more importantly, to T.

I relate a lot to what you're saying about the shame in thinking about things in terms of 'us'. I guess one small step I've made since I started therapy is admitting that T is even in the room and interacting with me. It was several months into therapy before I could even say 'you' in referring to my T! There's a huge amount of shame there when it comes to this stuff. Feel free to reply with more if you'd like, but of course know that you don't need to if you don't want to.

Liese,

Yes, I'm feeling like I'm at that same point where I either need to face this or just stop therapy. Maybe my T would disagree, I don't know, but it feels like this is something I just have to deal with. It would be so hard for me to broach the subject if I were only seeing T every other week. I'm in the midst of something like that right now where, because of several things, it was two weeks between my last two sessions and it's going to be nearly 2 weeks between my last session and my next one. It's easier for me to convince myself that there isn't a relationship at all when we have breaks like this. Thanks, Liese. ((hugs))

AG,

I relate to a lot of the dynamics in relationships you're talking about. It's so complicated - it's like navigating a maze with traps everywhere. I'm starting to realize there's terror there for me as well. A few weeks ago my T and I realized (well, I'd been partially aware but hadn't fully realized until then) that several of the plants in her office were triggers for me, so she took them out. And that's been a huge thing that we've been talking about because of not only have a need known (and met! ) but it makes me more known to her, and that's just terrifying. A part of me is still waiting for the other shoe to drop and for something bad to happen because a need was identified and met.

Yes, it's possible that the shame stems from betrayal in a particular relationship, although I'm really fighting believing it.. It makes sense to me, intellectually, that that is why this is so scary. Well, a lot of things make sense to me intellectually! But to really *own* the explanation of why - well, that's the even scarier part. One thing I'm realizing in talking about this is that along with huge amounts of shame wrapped up in this, understanding WHY I'm so scared of my T and the relationship and what comes with the relationship will make it very hard to keep up the denial that I've been ruled by. It seems like such a 'duh' kind of thing now that I write it out. It's funny that denial can blind you to some of the most obvious things.

Gosh it really does feel so terrifying. I think I also just wish there was a way to be able to move closer to T without having to toss lovely denial out the door at the same time. It feels like one heck of a leap to take. With about 10 days until my next session, I hope I won't lose the motivation and courage to talk about this. Thanks, AG. ((hugs))

((((Kashley))))

Be gentle with yourself hon. Denial serves an important purpose by allowing us to function until we are ready to know something. I remember being poised in that place and so uncertain. I know it's scary. And it one heck of a leap and if you can't do it next time, that's perfectly ok. You'll do it when you're ready and have enough strength. When its safe for you to do so. If what you are afraid happened really happened then it came at you too fast to cope with. You don't have to do that now, you can move only as fast as works for you, there is no rush. No one is going anywhere.

AG

Thanks AG. I do tend to rush...I know it stems out of the fear that if I don't do everything right then I'll be abandoned. But I know I'm pushing myself more now because in about 10 months I'll be moving for grad school (don't know where yet, but it won't be where I am now). So I feel like I'm on a countdown with my T, and I feel a pressure to make it worth it or else this 'relationship' is meaningless like every other one. At least that's what it seems like.

quote:

A part of me is still waiting for the other shoe to drop and for something bad to happen because a need was identified and met.

Boy do I know this one well... that is how I've lived for so long, and the patterns that I'm used to... similar to what AG mentioned about the good always being followed by the abuse... Same thing that I worried about for ages with my T - she was and is always so patient and even and compassionate, so when is that going to change? She's so willing to work with me on anything, when is she going to pull the rug out?

What I've slowly learned is that she isn't going to do that. Yes, the relationship is incredibly strange and rather surreal, but it IS a relationship. And as hard as it is to talk to her about "her" it has to happen. I even asked her once "what it is like having so many people talk to you about you?" and she just laughed. She says it's all in the training - she knows how to handle those conversations because it's a part of her job. She equated it to teaching for me - I couldn't tell you half the stuff I do with my students because I do it automatically, it's what I've been trained to do. Well, Ts are trained the same way - they deal with things pretty regularly that we try to avoid.

Wishing you luck and sending you hugs... ((((Kashley))))

(((((Kashley))))) I really feel for you, honey- it must be so difficult to think your counseling is ending in ten months time. I'm hoping that there will be some way found for you to stick with your T. In the meantime, try not to go more quickly than you feel able to, since that's going to be counter-productive anyway. You simply can't put a rush on your healing or get it "done" within a specific timeframe. So think of this time as one step in your journey, and give this one step your all, but without rushing. You know there will be another step, later, but for now, this is where you are.

(((((Kashley))))

I understand about acknowledging the relationship feeling wrong. I deal with that in most of my relationships, and it was much worse with Guru T. It takes time to get over such feelings, and feel more "real." Big hugs to you,

BB

((((kashley))))

Oh, that difference between intellectually knowing something is good to do and actually being able to do it... is huge for me too when it comes to this subject too. I get very scared to talk to my T about the relationship at all. I tend to disappear, numb out, when she does... and that happens when she so much as says thw smallest comment about it. And for me to initiate talking about it? I haven't been able to do that yet. I keep trying, but clam up every time. Even after all the time I've been in therapy with her, I find it to be THE most difficult thing to even THINK of talking about with her...

My T said once about denial that it is a wall that helps us manage pain, and it doesn't have to be all taken down at once. I tend to jump full into things a lot too.

I have lately been writting to my T, and just last week wrote eomsthing I wanted that was simply about wanting her nearby. It was huge for me to give it to her, and I pretty much numbed out when she started to respond (and very kindly so) but she helped me re-ground and said that she knew it was hard to communicate what I did, and she just wanted to say it was very ok, and that we didn't have to talk about it any further than I was ready. That was so helpful for me. I am guessing your T likely knows it is hard for you too and would probably help you walk through talking about it. And yet, I find it a terrible bind to try as ask my T for help talking to her about the relationship itself.

I wish I had any words of real help or comfort. I just wanted to say that I really can relate... and remind you, like others, you are so not aalone in this at all...

~ jane

Kashley,
I certainly understand the desire to push when the clock is ticking down like that (I have spent all 25 years of my therapy impatient with my progress ) But I have to agree with Beebs that trying to move too fast actually slows you down.

quote:

I feel a pressure to make it worth it or else this 'relationship' is meaningless like every other one. At least that's what it seems like.

I also want to assure you that it won't be wasted or meaningless. It was really scary for me when my first T told me she was retiring as we were definitely not done yet. She had decided to go back to school and pursue a different career (for very good reasons, I actually was very supportive of the move she was making). And I remember that feeling of is this all going to go to waste?

But you know what happened, I went on to work with my T and finished healing enough to leave regular therapy (a day my insurance company had despaired ever coming to fruition ). But there would not have been the healing that I did with my second T without the work I did with my first T. The truth is that the progress you have accomplished and the growth you have
acheived are part of you. And despite how impossible it feels, you can go on to work with another therapist and it will not be a "reset" to the start, but a progress onward from where you are now.

All that said, I do know it is painful and difficult to have to leave a therapist before the work is done. But I also know that you are strong enough to face it and still be able to go on and heal.

AG