HI DF and BG,

What great suggestions! I love coloring. I'm going to try them. Do they ever tell you if it'll go away eventually?

Oh DF, I'm so glad to hear that some things do get less and less activating. It gives me hope. I guess the other things you still find triggering, you'll just still have to work on until they don't anymore, yes????

It sounds like you did some really great work in the last 6 months. Was that with the DBT? Or the other T? Or both? You really like that DBT?

HI AG,

Thanks for you post. I'm glad to hear that you handle it so well now. It really gives me hope. I guess I am just at the point where it's coming to consciousness. And I'm finding the emotions crippling. I think I used to just be depressed all the time so it's good to know that I'm really just reacting to certain situations and that I'll be able to identify them and hopefully control them.

HI DF,

Any chance you could still do the DBT? Or is it out of the question? Is it basically a mindfulness therapy? And how are you doing today? Any better? Do you hate Sundays?

Hi DF,

Yes, I hate the weekends generally. But mostly because my husband is home and does nothing around the house to help out with the kids. He doesn't take responsibility for anything and I'm realizing how angry I am about it. So I tiptoe around the house on weekends trying to avoid him. I actually like the weekdays better. Right now anyway. Maybe someday I will like weekends better, after I resolve issues with H.

Feeling a little less activated now. Just came from T. Very anticlimatic. I don't know what I was expecting but he's not really elucidating things for me.

Liese... I'm sorry that you have been feeling so activated lately. It's a hard thing to have to handle. At some point with old T I learned to use mindfulness to help me at times with the activation... although at the end when he was acting so scary and weird nothing helped me. I was too terrified to control my emotions surrounding his threat of abandonment.

Funny... I used to LOVE Sundays when I was with oldT because I saw him on Monday afternoon and Sunday night I would plan what to wear and what to say and what to bring... I always brought articles, books, pictures, whatever... to ease our communication and allow him to know me better and to understand where I was or what I was thinking about. Then... when I was terminated I would become very depressed on Sunday night... even now that I see new T on Monday it's still very hard to deal with.

Liese... can you talk a bit more about what happened in therapy today? I was thinking about you and how you were doing. I had a good session with newT which I will post about later. They are all calling me for dinner now so I don't have time.

Be back later
TN

Hi TN,

Thanks for asking Tn. I am glad will be looking for your post on your session today. I'm glad it went well and you are liking new T.

So, I've really been a mess. Had a bad night last Wed into Thursday. Just my usual abandonment issue stuff, I guess. Called T Thursday. It was nice to talk to him on the phone. Actually, usually I'm very nervous on the phone and this time I wasn't as nervous and he was very soothing. So it really helped. But asked him on the phone if I was borderline and he said we'd look at the book today. So I was anxious about that all weekend. After I talked to T on Thursday night, weekend was okay, except for Sunday when my husband lost his cool with my 11 year old. It really activated me. I felt traumatized all day.

So, I guess I just thought I'd go in there today and start crying and tell him how much pain I've been in. And, I couldn't do it. I go in and with a straight face and no emotions, we talk about the problems with my H and we talk a little about how much pain I was in. And, then we go over the manual, one at a time. I'm guessing abandonment is huge for me by the way I reacted when he didn't call me about a month ago - when I sent the letter. So we touch on the abandonment stuff. We say I don't make frantic attempts but maybe pathetic attempts not to be abandoned. And the list goes on. And he gets to the impulsivity stuff and doesn't even make eye contact when we get to the sex stuff and then says, well this isn't a problem. (well, I guess hubby and I haven't done it in a while, so in a way it's true) but then I say, yeah, but I wanted to sleep with my neighbor a month ago and he says, who doesn't want to sleep with their neighbor? But you didn't do it. You may have these thoughts, but you're not carrying them out.

So one by one, we knock them off. And I ask him well, what was that all about? When I reacted so badly when you didn't call me a month ago? And he thought about it and he thought about it and then he said, well I guess in some ways, I'm giving you what your H isn't giving you. And you felt abandoned by me. Or you felt I was inaccessible. And, I say, yeah, well that's true.

Then we talk about the dissociation. And he tells me that he doesn't think I do this because it would mean that I wouldn't remember say, like 2 years from my life. And then he says, well there is numbing but I don't think you do that. And I'm like, well, I think I do do that. It happens all the time. But I didn't tell him it happened all the time. And, then, I mentioned how I feel so wierd all the time and I'm very reactive lately. And he says I'm dealing with a lot right now because I'm dealing with the issues in my marriage.

And, I tell him that I was worried about early-onset alzheimers and my memory is so bad ... and he said it's from stress.



So I'm feeling a little deflated because I think I'm going to go in there and get all emotional and get out all this hurt that I'm carrying around and it doesn't happen. And he just kind of acts like I'm normal, see, no personality disorder for you, just anxiety and depression. But we've never talked about the rape. So, I'm reading what you guys are writing about PTSD and wondering if I'm making it all up in my head or if he's just being coy with me and waiting for me to bring it up. Maybe he really doesn't remember. If I just had anxiety and depression, would I have reacted the way I did when he didn't call me? Do people with anxiety and depression also suffer from abandonment issues? Do I just have really bad social skills and so can't make the connections with people that I need to and that's why I suffer from abandonment issues??? Because I'm always hooking up with the wrong people??? Anyway, I just found the whole session very dissatisfying and I'm feeling very angry with him, actually, that he's not saying something like, "you're acting like someone who has suffered a trauma" because I don't want to feel like I'm just making this stuff up. Does any of this make sense? And why can't I open up emotionally when I am with him??? I was crying on and off all weekend.

And, so he kind of makes me feel like I'm normal and I'm almost feel like, why am I in therapy if I'm so g**da**** f***ing normal??????

HI Tn and everybody out there in forum land, (do you remember like tv land?)

Anyway, just realized that I'm getting all pissed off at him because I feel like he's denying me my trauma. Is that the stupidest thing you ever heard?

Wow, Liese, I can understand why you are feeling so mixed up right now and probably very frustrated by the session.

Did your husband getting angry with your 11 year old activate you because it brought back some old memories of your childhood? I have a really hard time when my son and my dh get into arguing. It really makes me crazy because it reminds me of the past when everyone was always arguing in my house. So I was just wondering. You don't have to say if it makes you uncomfortable... just something to think about.

WARNING...THIS COMES FROM SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT LIKE CBT THERAPY FOR C-PTSD********


As for your T... it seems like instead of asking you about what you have concerns about and talking it through he sort of minimized every issue you tried to approach with him. I could be wrong and I know you are attached to him and really don't want to upset you but... a CBT T is not going to want to see BPD or even complex PTSD in his patients. Because that would mean you would really need to delve into the past and I don't think that is his thing... his area of expertise. He would rather think the deeper issues don't exist and avoid them and focus on anxiety and anxiety relief. This is where oldT and I bumped heads a lot. But because I was pretty sure of what was going on with me and I had the support of a wonderful and knowledgeable friend to back me up... I was able to drag my T into the psychodynamic arena. But it was clearly outside of his expertise and he was in over his head. I was swimming for both of us and I know this now. He was wonderful in that he could stablize my emotions because of the attachment and the really strong connection we had... and I know he felt connected to me too... that part was very real. And my oldT DID say he was both psychodynamic and behavioral (not specifically CBT though).

As for the other stuff... he just assumed intimacy with your dh was just fine and you didn't actually sleep with the neighbor just thought about it so that does not count. Huh? I have seen Ts really threatened by a patient who is attached to them AND having issues within the marriage. I had a friend whose T told her if she got divorced he would stop seeing her. She had attachment issues but never acted out towards him or made advances on him. He just couldn't handle it.

Abandonment is huge in both patients with BPD and complex PTSD. Some of us were physically abandoned and some were emotionally abandoned in childhood. We fear it in everyone we care about. You reacted badly last month when he didn't call because you do have abandonment issues and it sound like (I could be wrong so just ignore this if so) you have an attachment injury which makes it so hard to move closer to someone because that just signals danger and we want to run. But if we move closer and they don't react in a positive way (you wrote the letter and he didn't call) they we start to freak out (in clinical terms it was emotional dysregulation).

And so your T pronouces you with anxiety and depression. Ask him where he thinks this comes from and why? People don't just wake up one day with depression and anxiety. There is a root in the past and if it's not worked through it remains and comes back again. Oh and his comment about giving you what your dh is NOT giving you was really wrong. He was sort of giving you what your parents/caregivers did not give you in childhood. What you are struggling with MOST LIKELY has its roots in childhood development that did not happen the way it was supposed to.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with his view on dissociation nor with telling you that you don't numb out. How does he know this? Did he explain it?

I'm really sorry if I'm being hard on him but I hate that he did not validate how you were feeling and what you are struggling with. The reason why you are always hooking up with the wrong people has nothing to do with bad social skills it is what is called "repetition compulsion" which is being atracted to the same people who are not good for us in order to replay our childhoods and make things different this time around... to fix it. And in this way somehow fix our childhoods.

Liese, I don't think you can open up emotionally with him because he has not made you feel safe enough to do so. You need to feel a lot of trust in him and feel safe enough to cry and be vulnerable in his presence. This is very hard to do and takes time and a constant build up of trust. You test him at times but he does not really pass the test with enough conviction to make you feel safe. Does any of this make sense to you? I hope I'm not upsetting you by writing this and I should put a disclaimer on top saying that I don't like CBT therapy for those who are suffering from complex PTSD or BPD. I think it has it's place and works in some areas and with some issues but for trauma one needs a good psychodynamic T who is not afraid of the past and who knows the process. My oldT could not do this. My newT is really good at this and I'm already feeling safer with him after 10 sessions.

Please disregard anything that does not ring true for you. After all I don't know your history nor do I know your T at all. I'm just going by what you tell me. It sounds like he disappointed you today and confused you even more. I will try to find those articles that explain c-PTSD so you can have something more "official" when you see him next.

Hugs to you
TN

Hi TN, I started to reply but my computer started freaking out and my post just disappeared!!! Oh well.

Thank you so much for understanding and validating my feelings. I couldn't really get a handle on why I felt so frustrated. I mean, it should be a good thing that I don't have borderline, right? And, i should have felt really good. although what I was playing in my head ahead of time about the session is that I would be able to ask if I could come twice a week or at least phone in on thursdays since I have such a hard time on weekends. He doesn't give me anything and makes me work very very hard for what I want. The only concession he made recently was with the "not caring about me stuff" ... he finally offered that he does care about me when I said he's making me jump through hoops and I have asthma. Because, he's trying to get me to ask for what I want. And it's soooooo hard to ask for what I want.

So maybe I felt frustrated because if I don't have full-blown borderline, then will I feel entitled to ask for what I need? Which are the extra sessions and support? He did validate that I am going through a lot right now. At least twice. Why isn't that enough? Because I want him to offer it. God, I hate when he makes me ask for things. Why does he do it????? I hate asking for things!!!!


TN, after I had the bad reaction to him not calling me, I told him that I forced myself to go back to the early 80's and his response was that I was going too fast. So, I took that to mean that eventually we will go back to the early 80's. (time of the trauma) And he has said, with the serious face, that if I need to talk about anything with him, I can. So, I don't feel that I can't talk about it. Maybe I'm waiting for him to lead me there. Or maybe I'm waiting for him to do the "trauma work". To have a distinct phase. I do feel so crazed since the letter incident and he thinks I've made tons of progress since the letter incident. So there has to be a connection between me feeling abandoned by him and all this asserting myself with my DH that he thinks I'm doing.

As for the trauma feelings I had when my DH and 11 year old were fighting, I couldn't really connect it to anything specific, though he did pin her down for a second. He's never done that before. I was really upset about that and it was all over a stupid pair of shorts that no one wanted anymore. (GIVE THEM TO GOODWILL. WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?) I was pretty traumatized all day and we took the kids to get the Christmas tree. I was really disconnected from everyone. I couldn't tell if they all felt traumatized by what happened. Everyone just kind of seemed normal. I did tell my Dh how upset the whole incident was and that he was damaging the 11 year old. And, that my children are going to come first. My T gave me some referrals for my DH which i passed along to him. My gut is saying if he doesn't make an appointment soon, I will have to ask him to leave. I can't have my kids growing up like that. There's no reason for it. My H is a good guy but as I've said on other threads, had the childhood from hell. I told him this morning that he'd have to be a superman to come out of it without scars and there is no shame in recognizing your issues. But if he refuses to work on them, my kids are and always have been my first priority.

So, I guess a lot is going on, huh TN? It's a big deal. My mother thinks my DH walks on water. Will anyone really understand if I have to ask him to leave? Well, my T will. He keeps telling me he knows how much I love my kids. That's really nice to hear.

I did ask my T why I felt so traumatized by the whole incident. And, after telling me that it was pretty serious, he also said that it could have reminded me of something that happened to me in the past. But I just shook my head in agreement. I did have a brother that was a little out of control growing up. He did beat me up a couple of times when my father was away, which was 50% of the time as he travelled for a living. I think he took over a parenting role. And my mother let him, I guess she was overwhelmed. But maybe it was more than that. He had wicked anger. He axed his bedroom walls down when he was supposed to be babysitting my sister and me. And then my Dad told us, he was just putting up new sheetrock, that's all. Nothing to worry about. Nothing at all!!! I guess because I was the youngest I didn't know what it was all about but my sister told me recently that the reason he axed the walls down was because he was mad my parents would lend him the car.

I guess it could have affected me so much because of the rape trauma. But, like I said, I couldn't connect it to anything specific. I just feel like my whole nervous system is in a constant state of arousal since a month or more ago now when T didn't receive my letter. Which is now curiously leading me to be more assertive. I know there is a therapeutic connection. I just haven't figured it out yet. You, TN?

I guess it would be nice to have some kind of timeframe for when I might be feeling a little more normal. I would like to look for a job in April and would like to have my head on fairly tight by then. So, I would like that from him. Or is it all going to be dependent upon my DH and if he goes for help and then we have to take it from there???? I need to look for a job in case I have to ask him to leave. I guess this is really a reality.

Wish I could sleep! Not doing much sleeping lately!!! I used to sleep too much. That's when I suffered from depression. I think now I'm suffering frome extreme anxiety.

Hi, Liese...I'm not really sure about what it means to be activated.



AG said:

quote:

Activation is a weird arc. It takes a LOT of work to become conscious that it's happening, so you're halfway there. Once it is happening, it can be a useful tool to point you towards what you need to work on. And it continues to be a useful tool to understand yourself even after you have it under control so to speak.

hm, how do you become conscious that it's happening...I always doubt myself. I sounds like you are making progress in this area, at least you know what you are feeling, and aren't doubting it or shoving it out of awareness...that seems like a plus.

Gosh, idk...my T is very far from CBT oriented, I have heard him say that he disagrees with CBT because it doesn't go to the roots of the problem. But he handles everything in my therapy very much like your T does. He seems to always downplay my "issues" and is really against the idea of specific diagnoses. He has to give me a diagnoses for some tax stuff, and gives me the least diagnoses he can, I suspect. I could recognize everything you said, I've even asked him the same questions, and his response is always that there is nothing wrong with me, and that once I can accept that fact, etc. and etc, I will begin to feel more normal...and all of this does feel like "shutting me up." My T says confusing things about talking about the past. He says I can tell him anything, talk about anything. But I sense some kind of embargo on talking about the past, even though he has said that it needs to be talked about because if the past is living on in the present...and that he understands how confusing this is." It always feels like my T is saying "You must talk about the past- but don't talk about the past." there is some kinda lesson here that I'm not getting. I don't understand what he is trying to do or get acrss, so I avoid talking about the past very much, even though it does affect me. Like you, I want him to lead me there, make it "ok" to talk about, because I don't feel like I'm allowed, or that it will be taken seriously... ohhh, I don't know what I'm trying to say. I just know my T is against CBT and has handled things the same way that yours has, at least from my understandeing and what you've written here. Maybe my T is off-base, but I really don't know, all I can do it hope that he knows what he's doing, or, leave him for another T, or quit therapy altogether. So far I've been sticking with option 1.

Sorry you aren't sleeping much...that is a bear, espcially when you have small ones who need you. I get how hard it is when husabnd won't help around, and is impatient and angry with kids, or doesn't handle things appropriately. My little girl was throwing a huge full-blown fit one day after I had handled something poory to begin with. I was trying to let her be angry, and get it out of her system, telling her it's ok to be angry we love you, but you can't hurt people when you are angry, you have to take it out on something that won't get hurt." My husband steps in and tells her to go to her room. I kinda flipped because isolating her for her anger was the worst possible thing he could do to her in that moment, really, really abusive, (in my daughter's case, as she hateds to be alone)without him even knowing that or getting it. I just said "No, we are not sending her to her room." He complied. then I worry about my kids growing up without strong sense of "daddy" either, because I've undermined his authority on this issue so many times- so I just can't win. But I can't let him do that to her...I just can't. Have you tried talking all this over with your dh without the anger? My husband isn't able to hear my words or accept them when I am angry, he just gets more angry and removed. So for the sake of my kids I have to speak very gently, and clearly, without anger at him, or I will not be able to make my points about proper child-rearing, and he will just get angrier at the children for my disagreement/anger. I hate that I have to "teach" him and treat him so gently like a child at times- it would be nice to have relationship where we could agree and be two adults about our kids- but in ways, for the sake of my kids there is no other way, since I am the one with the knowledge. Also, my T has even encouraged me to give my husband an ultimatum, that he has to go to therapy with me. If you can get your H to go with you sometimes, then he might become more open to doing his own separate work if he sees some positive results that benefit him....

hugs, for you Liese...it's a hard road...I know it's hard not to know when you will be feeling better. I had a timeframe of being "better" by the begin of this year, because I had a project in mind for one of my kids that I *needed* to do...and it hasn't worked out all that well, after all. But, we will get there...better to be on the escalor going in the right direction, even if you are turning around and moving back a few steps at atimes, at least the staircase is taking you gradually upwards..

Love,

BB

Hi Beebs,

thanks for the reply. It was so hard to write about that stuff. Usually I keep my feelings a secret. My friend was here visiting recently and we talked a lot about the problems between my husband and I and so I texted her about what happened over the weekend. And, she called immediately. And, when i saw her call, I thought, oh god, why did I tell her??? Now it's real. I guess I think when I keep it to myself it's not real. But once it's spoken and someone reacts to it, it's different, Huh?

My T does sound a lot like yours. And, My T's training is CBT but true CBT is short-term, I think. Not sure. But he seems willing to go the distance with me. I do think he wants me to ask for what I need Beebs but it hurts sooo much. I admire TN's stregnth in this area. Why does it have to hurt so much?

Beebs, have you ever had a panic attack? I don't know if you have. But when I've had panic attacks, it's a full-blown adrenalin rush. The adrenalin is flowing up and down my spine and my head throbs and sometimes I feel like I'm going to throw up. When my T didn't call me a month ago (it might be more than a month now) ... Beebs, I was in bed, almost catatonic with my eyes being pushed closed. I had a complete and total fear resposnse. Since then, been feeling better but still feel that adrenalin and I seem to get pissed off much easier than before. I guess that's what I mean when I say I'm activated lately. I think I've been suppressing all my anger. But I don't seem able to anymore and it's not because I've made a conscious decision suddenly to be more assertive. All of which my T thinks is a good thing because I think he thinks I need to be way more assertive and there was a reason ( I guess the fear of abandonment???) that I wasn't being assertive. So things that a normal spouse would point out to her DH, I keep my mouth shut about.

I know what you mean about the parenting stuff. My DH wouldn't dream of picking up a parenting book. Doesn't seem to care less about his style and how it'll affect the kids. I guess I'm getting tired of doing all the work. For a while, I think I liked it that way. The mothering was my thing. My domain. But now I see that they need him too, especially my son, who suffers a little socially and needs a strong positive male role model in his life and doesn't really have one in my husband because I'm not sure how PRESENT my husband is when he is with us. He's always watching tv or reading, etc. But developing a relationship with the children? Not really, unless it's sports-related. But it would also be nice for me, to know I can leave or go out and we'll be on the same page. I'm just wondering if our goals are the same anymore.

wow, Liese, that sounds like a really difficult thing to go through. I can't say that I have ever expereinced a reaction like that. I have Unexplained palpitations and shortness of breath, sometimes I get this kid of weird gasping feeling that feels like I might be dying, but I have no emotions associated with any of this- it's just stuff that kind of happens to my body from time to time, and that I don't really pay much attention to, until I started thinking about it lately. I'm sorry you had to go through such a terrifying experience, and what's worse, it sounds like you were alnoe with it? (((((Liese)))))

You are getting there...it takes time. I wonder about if a trauma T might serve you better at times, but gosh, I don't really know your situtaion, so take that with large grains of salt. I get that it would be hard to have two T's, and that ditching the one you are with feels next to impossible, gosh the whole thing is so confusing. Keep on plugging...you are making progress. Fwiw, my T seems to think the same thing that yours does about me not getting what I need from my marriage and he is always trying to teach me how to ask for what I need, so that it will translate into my marriage. And yes, it is awfully hard to ask, awfully painful..I have some kind of real problem with that myself, so I relate very much.

hug,

BB

thanks for the support Beebs. I sometimes wonder if I should go to a trauma T also. If you google trauma, though, CBT is one of the therapies that is listed as being effetive. I will just have to push him a little more. I agree with Tn about his mischaracterization of why I freaked out when he didn't call me. I do believe TN that he is my attachment figure. Why wouldn't he just tell me that??? I guess I can ask him. Sometimes I wonder if he's testing my knowledge because I downplay how much I know. And, I test him to see what he knows. He'll ask me questions and I just say, I don't know. When I do know but at the time, I think I'm being really honest with the I don't know answer. I'm just not confident with my answer. I'm not confident challenging an authority figure, I guess.

TN, I like the way you are protective of me. It feels like the big sister I never had. (Well, I did have a big sister - just not a protective one.) It feels nice to be protected. I do listen to your concerns and if I have to find a new T, I will. I do like him quite a bit and think he's very smart. I also think he keeps his shit out of the room. I used to cry in front on him. back in the beginning, when I first started. But I can't anymore. Maybe now that the relationship has become more important. Well, and also, there's all the transference issues. My father was ALLERGIC to emotions. Emotions = loss of love. so there could be transference going on there. And my father was my attachment figure. Yup, I was dysfunctional daddy's little girl.

But thanks again, TN. It really is heartwarming. It brings a tear to my eyes. You know, one of those hard-to-come-by tears.

Yup, TN = smart cookie.