Hi Echo...I'm sorry you are struggling with deciding who you will chose as your next T. As for the advice. Whenever my T goes into advice mode we end up in a disruption. I usually tell him to stop the CBT because I don't like it. I finally yelled at him one day that I don't want his advice, I don't want him to fix things or to SOLVE all my problems. I just want him to LISTEN to me and to hear what I have to say. I need him to be there to witness my pain and my grief and my frustration and to just LISTEN. I know that by doing that he felt that he was not actively doing anything to help me and he wants to do that more than anything. I know he hates to see me in pain but I finally convinced him that the pain is unavoidable and that if he is with me I can deal with it. Well, he has tried and we have given it time and I think he is finally noticing the positive that has come out of it.

The thing is that my T is also a psychodynamic therapist but he would keep switching out of that modality and into CBT and when he would do that we would end up in a bad place. When he stays psychodynamic things go so much better betweeen us and I think he's finally seeing that.

And so... I totally understand what you mean about your ex-P and all the advice. It would sure shut me down if all I got was advice from him that i could get from a self-help book and be done with it. Maybe this works with some issues that people have but I don't think CBT is a long-term solution for attachment disorder or complex trauma/PTSD. For that you need psychodynamic therapy for lasting changes.

Just my opinion.

TN

From what I understand about therapy, and what I've experienced, therapists should never give advice. And I totally agree. I see it as an abuse of power, because we're coming to them for help to sort out all of the crap in our lives - we already know (in most cases) that they have the means to help us get the answers we need to find, whether we like those answers or not. But we always have to reach those places by our own doing, from our own work. A therapist giving advice seems like a short-cut to me, and we don't get the experience of the journey. However cliched that sounds. No matter what ends up happening with your marriage, it should ALWAYS be a decision that you reach and not an answer that your therapist gives you. What are you supposed to learn about yourself if someone tells you what to do? And you don't know exactly why you're doing it? It's like following the instructions to put something together, and you're sticking nails in places that don't seem like they hold anything together at that time. We have to understand why we put things in certain places.

I think it's very good that you feel safe with this T. With my new T, in the second session, I was very close to crying and I never got remotely close in any therapy before. Well, once I did, but I nearly had a panic attack. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I understand how comforting it is to feel safe enough to do that. It was a major indicator to me that my T would be able to help me. But I can't help but be totally turned off by your T's attempt to give you such major advice. That seems like a huge, huge red flag. Can you maybe talk to her about it in the next session? Ask why she felt she needed to tell you whether to get divorced or not? Especially considering you never even asked her.

Sorry you're struggling with this, Echo. ((((Echo))))

Ok, so am I hearing correctly that this advice-giving habit isn't par for the course in therapy? It's part of the "directive" style associated with CBT?

Those of you with good Ts that you like: they don't give you lots of specific advice?

Hi Echo,

Wow, I'm kind of dismayed at all the advice this T is throwing at you. Especially because it sounds like she's such a good fit for you otherwise, in being comfortable enough with her to cry already (very important to feel safe enough for that!).

One thing that came to mind...don't know if it's helpful...just trying to understand where she might be coming from...I wonder if lots of other patients go to T's seeking a "quick fix" so that they start assuming that is what everyone is looking for? Not that it's your job to figure her out. Just wondering.

But I agree with everyone here, Kashley summed it up nicely with "What are you supposed to learn about yourself if someone tells you what to do?" You are looking for a deeper change, not simply treatment of symptoms. I wonder if there is a way you could broach this subject with her. Kind of scary right off the bat, maybe...if you do bring it up, I hope you get a positive response. Unfortunately it seems that when we mention to T's that we want them to do things a different way, sometimes the response is not what we'd hoped for......and that sucks.

But to answer your question, my T never gives me advice, ever. Sometimes to a fault. When I first started looking for a couples T again, I asked her twice if there was anyone she would recommend, and she said she'd think about it, but never got back to me. Eventually I found this couples T that we're seeing now. When I mentioned to her that I'd made an appointment, and who it was with, she said "oh, I've heard good things about them...I have a friend who works there. Whenever someone asks, I always recommend them or this other clinic." I remember thinking, huh. I wonder why she didn't say anything to me the two times I asked. But I didn't really mind, I guess, I like that I found it on my own.

Good luck, Echo...keep us posted!
SG

Echo,

I'm sorry you are having doubts when this T seems to right in the other ways that you need.

I agree with SG in that I think approaching this with her might be a good idea. What I'm thinking is that she might back off if you bring it up or at least it might be a good jumping off point to explore your feelings about being told what to do and not feeling like you've been free to make your own decisions.

My T has given me advice. I will also say that at times it has pissed me off! In the beginning, she would not stop suggesting that I take meds. It finally came to a point that I said, "I have thoroughly researched my options and weighed the pros and cons of taking meds. At this time, I have chosen not to take traditional medicine. I don't expect you to agree with me, but I do expect you to respect my decision. Please don't bring it up again." She hasn't. In general, she does not give advice but every now and then she will throw out some sort of suggestion or anecdote. However, she almost always says to take it or leave it. If it helps great and if it doesn't sound right then disregard.

I hope you find somewhere to land with this that feels right. (((((echo)))) Good luck!

echo

This is a hard one for you. The advice giving is not something I've personally experienced in therapy - in fact quite the reverse! My T will only ever offer suggestions of things I COULD do IF I want to....she wants me to work stuff out for myself and for me that is better in the long run, but I do secretly wish sometimes she'd just tell me what to do!!

But really, I wouldn't like being told what to do by someone, especially one that I'd only just met to boot. That would set alarm bells ringing for me. But it's hard for you because in other ways she seems good

quote:

She is nice, and very engaging, listens well, feels very safe to me (I have cried in both sessions, and I have never cried in therapy before!)

all good qualities and I like the fact that you instinctively felt safe too. But if it got to you so quickly at the start then I wonder if it might only escalate further as she got to know you better and had more and more advice to give.

I don't thjink it's a CBT thing, as that's still getting the client to solve the problem using cognitive and behavioural approaches. I had some CBT and for me it was quite directive in its method but still made me do the work.

I am so sorry for your struggle. Please let us know how you are doing and how and what you decide, if you can. (((echo)))

starfish

Hi, echo- sorry that finding a T is so rough. I guess I have my probs with my T or maybe, the nature of therapy in general, but I have to say that my T's lack of advice-giving has really been a source of frustration for me at times! I know why he doesn't like to advice me, but I still long to just be told what I am supposed to do/say/think. I long for some guidance, I guess. So I think it is so great, you do not want advice, actually want to find your own path is something- for one thing- and for another, I do not think T's generally give a lot of specific, direct advice. The one exception my T seems to have made, is when I have asked for parenting advice, he gave freely. But only when I asked first, as I remember. And, the way he has approached that with me, has really endeared him to me greatly, because I desperately needed to be taught and guided in this area, for real. I still do, and honestly I've improved as a parent but only specifically as a result of my T's help and guidance. I have issues with parenting, I guess. I love my kids dearly, but I can't always "feel" it because of crap from the past. this area happens to be a passion with my T, so he really helps me there, and is actually quite forceful about his beliefs- in this one area only- which has been very helpful to me, personally.
As far as being interrupted while (trying)to be speaking...my T used to do this, in fact it was annoying but also a relief because I got to stop talking- but over the past few sessions he has corrected this almost completely, by himself. I never told him it was making things difficult.
My T once said he doesn't think CBT goes enough to the roots, or something like that.
Well, this is my experince, hope it gives you some input to help you in your search/decision. I hope you are doing ok, Echo...

May I just add, nice to see you post, LL!

BB

To answer your question:

Actually, in my last session, I went into it slightly hoping that my T would give an inkling of preference toward whether I should join another therapy group or not. As I expected, I left the session having absolutely no idea if she thought it was a good idea for me to do it again. Even though I kind of wish I could have gauged some sort of opinion from her about this, I'm still so glad that she didn't show any preference, because it slightly reduces my fear or being judged. Or, openly judged at least.

Granted, I've only had 5 sessions with this T, but I can't recall her ever giving me advice. I tend to have a horrible time remembering my sessions after a few days, but from what I can remember she never has. I think I've spent my whole life following people's advice (sometimes it doesn't even have to be verbalized - non-verbals can be very telling), and I think it's a huge part of my therapy to learn how to be confident in my own decisions and this means that I have to truly know why I am making those choices.


Hang in there, Echo, and please let us know how everything goes, what you decide, etc.

I got an email from her yesterday afternoon with all this information about Asperger's, cut and pasted from a site for spouse's-of-Aspies. Apparently she thinks my husband is on the autism spectrum, even though she's never met him and he's never been diagnosed with it. Personally, I think his social awkwardness is due to his being an arrogant prick, but what do I know? (My ex-P thought he had Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder.)

I think I'm done with this whole therapy thing. I know what I need to do. I'm tired of being treated like I'm too incompetent or fragile or whatever to manage my life. And I'm so TIRED of worrying about my husband and trying to make HIS life easier and understand HIM. What about me?!

Yeah, I'm definitely done with therapy.

((((echo))))

That does feel like an overstep on her part for sure. It isn't her job to diagnose or try to "fix" your husband. I'm sorry that this whole process is so hard. You sound so defeated and frustrated.

I know this might not be the right thing to say at this point, but I still wonder about the utility of going to this T with this anger about her advice giving and saying what you said here. You are NOT fragile or incompetent and you don't need someone to tell you how to run your life. It might end up being a good experience with this T. If it isn't then you haven't lost anything more than you have at this point. I'm sorry if I'm overstepping by saying this. I really do feel for you.

Maybe I will email her.

I'm realizing I don't have the time or energy for all this right now. I'm getting more depressed the harder I try.

quote:

Originally posted by echo:
Maybe I will email her.

I'm realizing I don't have the time or energy for all this right now. I'm getting more depressed the harder I try.

Yes, the irony of having the least amount of energy and resources to deal with stress being the exact time that you need that energy in order to reach out. I think emailing her is a great option. I'm sorry this is so hard.

Echo, if you feel good about the T#2, the one that you cried with, maybe if you tell her, that you don't want her to give you any advices, that you didn't feel good about her trying to give you an advise. She make take this into consideration and not do ithat in the future?

I mean that maybe since she does not know you yet, she is not very well attuned to you and maybe sometimes we need to tell them what we need.
To be honest, I feel like I am giving you advise now. Eeeeek!
Well, I actually just did.

No worries, Amazon! lol.

I was going to cancel my appointment for this week, but a friend offered to come over and watch my kids and encouraged me to keep the appt. She's coming from another town an hour away to do this favor for me. I am very lucky to have friends.

I'll be sure to bring up the whole advice-giving problem. If she says that's what her style of therapy is all about, I won't go back.

That is great Echo. I'm glad that you have a good friend to help you out. I hope that your T is receptive to talking about the issues you have with the advice giving. Hopefully it will end up being a productive session and she will be able to find a different path to working with you. Please keep us posted!

Echo, so how was the session?
Did you find the right T?

do post, echo, first sessions are such a drain. hopefully yours went well.

i had one yesterday with T3, and suddenly just had to leave...toooooo much!! 'flooding' i think they call it??? ew, i was so gone, trying to be polite, but gone.

do you think she/he can help? did you feel better or worse afterwards?? that is something i always measured, after every visit, especially a first, not that one will feel better after a major 'dumping'....many times i had to sit in my car for twenty minutes or so to just recollect to reality.

let us know your thought!?? hope it is a good fit!!!

Yes, I hope the session went well. I'm anxious to hear about it.

Hi Echo,

How are you? Been wondering how your session went...I'm guessing not too good, because you haven't posted since. Just wanted to send some hugs your way {{{{{echo}}}}} but no pressure to respond...just know that we are here for you if you need to talk.

SG

I have also been wondering how it went, and hoping you are doing ok, echo....

BB

I'm okay. I decided to stick with the therapist. She's been really accomodating with scheduling and she's a good person. She's backed off on the advice-giving, after I told her that I got the email about Asperger's but didn't think it was relevant since my H isn't the one in therapy. Maybe he has it, maybe he doesn't; either way there is nothing I can do about it!

I'm just taking a break from the online world right now and trying to be productive (keep busy to avoid my hopeless thoughts) in real life. Thanks for asking after me.

Great to hear from you! I hope things continue to go well with the new T and she keeps a lid on the advice giving.

Hope to see you back around when you are ready.

Hi Echo,

I'm glad to hear that you've stuck with this T. I hope things continue to get better and that she keeps listening to you. I've been thinking about you lately, so I'm glad to hear you're doing alright.

Take care, Echo.

echo, glad it is hopeful. and yes, i understand about the time spent here. i feel a bit guilty about it, but sometimes find it so helpful, it is a balance, like everything in life, and i'd like it to ALL be black and white...my eternal struggle. i like your attitude about the aspergers,and controlling what you can control, like the serenity prayer...

wtg, echo. and I hope to get where you are with internet use. you sound peaceful about your decision.

BB

i guess i am the minority here (as i am so often in life) but I WOULD SURE APPRECIATE SOME BLASTED ADVISE IN THERAPY!! i have HAD it with figuring it all out ON MY OWN!! see where that has gotten me!!!!

anyone with me here???

Hey Jill,

I know that I have often found it easier to get advice, and to get advice from my therapist WOULD make things easier in the short term...but there's a reason why therapy is so dang hard. If you have the right T, they are there to empower you to make your own decisions. They rarely tell how how hard that process will be, though.

Just last week, my therapist was telling me why something could possibly be beneficial to me, but she was very careful to point out that it was my decision, that she wasn't telling me I needed to do this or that, etc. But, and I told her this, all I heard was my mother telling me that I need to do this or else I'll just be making myself miserable for no reason and it will all be my fault. Giving advice makes things right or wrong - if not in both the eyes of your T and your own view, it at least makes it seem like, to you, that your T will think you did the "wrong" thing if you don't follow their advice.

Anyway, I hope that sort of clarified my view on the whole advice-giving thing. It's hard for me to see when someone is NOT giving me advice, so it's refreshing when my T doesn't do it. I hope that makes sense.

k, yes, it does make sense, and i know it is right and i appreciated 'your advise' (hee hee, but i am so blasted TIRED of figuring everything out on my own, i just 'wish' someome (my parent's) would give (have taught me how to think healthily) some advise...but i know it is up to me....i am still DEEP in the wishful thinking days, and the writing is on the wall!! those days never really were, and are certainly never going to be!

THERE!! i think i just said it!! compacted all my prolonged therapy into one remark that you, K, prompted!!

AM I DONE YET?????? (someone, quick, give me some advice, am i done!!) hee hee...no, i feel i need to further support financially the industry of psychotherapy!!! wish i could buy stock in it!

agh!! (jill runs off screaming with her hair standing on end!!)

Jill, I fought and raged for long months (internally) against my T's lack of willingness to guide me. I have always longed for someone caring to take me by the hand and show me what to do to improve my life and my les-than-healthy way of functioning. It would feel so good if someone could do this for me. and, for myself, I really do need some help and guidance in this area making it doubly hard. Maybe you are the same. My T has said that for him it is a balnce between helping too much and not enough. Maybe noone ever taught you what to do, or gave you guidance and help as a child. I know that is the case for me. So now when someone shows me how to do something in a caring and kind way, it hooks me emotionally in a very powerful waay. Yet, I must learn that though in so many ways I am still achild with a child's needs and thoughts, I however must become a person who is capable to figuring some things out for myself. It is so lonely and painful, in the extreme- to be a "child" with an adult's responsibilites and an adult's life. And I really do understand where you are coming from with this. Perhaps some of us really do need a little bit more nurturing and guidance in order to get to the point where we can do a bit more for oursleves. I'm not sure about that, since I take all my cues from my T, and he doesn't seem to think so. Or at least in past didn't seem to think so. I find this issue very painful and confusing. But I want to get to the point where I can at least accept what I need to do.I think my T has maybe, made a comment or two about how old I am inside or something like that (I was pretty spacy, so it is a very vague memory) and I'm not sure what he meant by that. I would need a lot of explanation and "guidance" to be able to get to the point where I fully understand what he really meant by that.

But yes, I too want someone to "show me what to do." I think it realtes to the needs from the past that were never met. I'm not sure, if the need to be guided can be met in the present or not...perhaps someone with more knowledge than I can weigh in here. I like what Kashley said, but I don't fully understand it.

BB

BB, yes, you got it!! i think my parents had no clue what to do with us, and just 'let us find our way'...and look where we are!! at least i am on here, my schizophrenic sister charted a different path...but yes, a clue would be nice!!

i function fine, and 'present' well, but y'all all know the truth better than even i do at times. it helps to have y'all understand, and BB, you hit the nail on the head!! you ALL do, i wish y'all all lived right next door! (that commment reminds me that two shrinks, psychiatrists, told me i am, one said four, one said five....thanks alot buddy!! but they cashed my check just like i was an adult!! )

grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! jill is still mad and wishes she could just play and color and not have to dadgum FUNCTION like an ADULT all day!! my husband does nurture the kid in me, i realize....last year he let me get a bunny! mom woulda never allowed THAT!!

You know what Jill I think I’m going to join your minority group.

I’m not so sure I want outright advice from a T (as in telling me what to do) but I certainly want a whole lot more in the way of guidance and direction (BB just as you are talking about). At the least I need to know that a T has a pretty good overall idea of where I want to get to and how to help me get there - and that means explaining to me the sorts of things they think I could be doing in order to get there, not this detached expectation that somehow in endlessly rabbiting on to an uninvolved talking head I’ll miraculously discover it all for myself. I’ve had absolutely ENOUGH of the fofo method that just about every T I’ve ever met practised (fofo = f*** off and find out for yourself).

For instance, if I hadn’t stumbled across this forum I’d have never known that how I was feeling in response to what happens in sessions not only can be brought to sessions and discussed but that in fact such openness and honesty is a vital part of the therapy itself. No therapist I’ve ever met has bothered to say something like - it’s important that you also tell me whatever you feel or think about what’s happening between us. Had I not read the amazing posts on this forum I’d still be in la la land feeling crap about how sessions were going and believing it was all a problem I had to deal with by myself (read: I’m doing it all wrong, it’s something wrong with me.)

I would also appreciate a T actually making suggestions about things I could potentially do to deal with real life situations that might be bothering me - not necessarily telling me what to do but pointing out options I have that I might not have thought about. (This is actually non-existent because I never do bring actual real life situations that need resolving to therapy - but I’d like to think that if I did, a T wouldn’t be afraid to suggest a range of ways of dealing with it and letting me work my way through those suggestions.)

And I find that a lot of therapeutic approaches (or is that just certain types of therapist?) actually do in a subtle sort of way shower me with ‘advice’ - of the pointing out ‘therapeutically’ how what I say do think and feel is pathological.

Example - Me: I can’t feel my own feelings. T: Yes you can, you are choosing not to. Everyone has a choice

To me that is a very insidious form of ‘advice’ - not only did it negate and invalidate my experience but it also told me in a sneakily covert way what I should be doing. (Lol the sort of thing CBT types are very good at - though that particular comment came from a supposed person-centred therapist.)

I’ve been accused by a couple of Ts of being ‘controlling’ in sessions - and that really winds me up because I’m actually waiting for the moment that I can trust a T to know what they are doing so that I can (heaving a huge sigh of relief) give up having to be so endlessly in control. What they seem to be doing is expect me to just let go but without giving me the guidance (advice?) I need to feel safe enough to be able to do so.

So yeah while I would be pretty miffed at being given straight out advice about what to do I nevertheless would like a whole lot more active involvement from a T in the guidance/direction/suggestions department.

LL

BB, Jill

Sorry if anything I said sounded invalidating or whatnot. I suppose my aversion to advice comes from people who have given me advice either for a short amount of time or for a long while, do so under the guise of caring, and then leave. Emotionally, physically, or both. It's kind of been conditioned in me to shy away from advice, because it seems to me like it's only ever been used by others to subtly tell me that I'm not good enough, that I need to change (and do so their way) so that they can accept me. And it also scares me, because I wonder, "What if I can't do what they're suggesting? What happens then? Will they leave? Get mad? Both?"

Ugh. I probably need to take a step back. Feeling a little triggered. Doesn't help that I just had a session a few hours ago and untangling insurance issues took up literally half the time.

Oh, no, Kashley, what you said was not invalidating, it is just I couldn't seem to understand it. My problem my defences, not what you said,a t all. It happens a lot on the forum, I just blank stuff out. I love AG's posts, but I have much to learn, and often can't understand them, either...not because they are bad, obviously, I just am not always "getting it." For whatever reason. I'm working on it though! how ya doin' jilly?

BB

Hi. Me again. I had another appointment yesterday (on a Saturday - kinda random) and we talked some more about the advice-giving. It came up during a general discussion of what frustrated me about my ex-P, and what went "wrong" with therapy. She kept saying things like, "If you find yourself feeling that way with me, will you tell me? I want you to know you can tell me if you're irritated with me." It was nice to hear that, and nice to get it out upfront what I don't like in therapy, so she knows to avoid it.

We also talked a lot about "The Attraction Issue", as ex-P called it. It's such a relief to be able to discuss that openly, and while I still feel humiliated and embarrassed talking about it, she totally normalized it for me. She said considering the relationship I have with my husband, and how lonely I've been, and all the positive traits in ex-P that I admired, it would be crazy to not fall in love with him. I appreciate that she used the word love, and acknowledged that I am in love with him and that this is not bad or weird or crazy or "fake" or whatever. (For the record, he never implied any of those things, either. I just wouldn't like to hear someone telling me that "it's not real" because I don't really know him, etc.

We talked some about why and why not a relationship outside of therapy is not possible with him. She wanted to know what I thought about it, and didn't put words in my mouth. I was able to verbalize what is going on in my logical brain ("it's impossible and won't happen") as well as in my emotional brain ("but we're meant to be together!") and once again, she validated that both of these ideas are completely understandable and normal.

T is going to be emailing me an article to read and an exercise to do to help me work on this transference thing. Some Jungian stuff about him being my "shadow" person, etc. There's an art project I'm supposed to do after I read the article. Woo-Woo Alert!! Not my type of thing, normally, but I'm trying to keep an open mind. I'll let you all know when I get the email.

OK, one more thing. She's loose with the boundaries and I'm tempted to bring it up. Talks a lot about her kids (young adults) and personal life, just in passing. Why do they DO THIS?? I'm wondering if this is a regional thing - people here are just super casual in general.

Hey Echo,

I'm so glad that you are feeling a little better about your T. I can hear that you still have some reservations about her, but at least she's encouraging you to be open with her about the process. I have to say that I think I would be a little put off if I had to do an "art project" after reading an article. I'm OK at art...not great, just OK, and so I need to feel inspired to do something artsy in order to do it. I wouldn't want to feel obligated to do any sort of art, either. But that's just me...I applaud you for keeping an open mind about it.

As far as self-disclosure...does this take away a lot of time from the therapy hour? I've had 8 sessions with my T, and I've only just found out her age and that she is a mom. I knew she was married from the wedding band, but not from her telling me! Ha. She's told me a couple stories about herself, but it always pertains to moving forward with my therapy and not just a story in passing. I would bring it up with her if you feel it is taking away from your therapy. And if it makes you feel shaky about boundaries in general with her, I would definitely bring it up. It sounds like she would be willing to accomodate your concerns and adjust accordingly.

Great to hear from you, Echo!