i guess i am thinking that i tell her that i really want to work through this situation, to understand why i get that way, why i let several small things that happened accumulate into one giant bomb exploding thinking she doesn't like me. and that it is my fault for being too sensitive (which i admit i am quite sensitive) to issues like the lights always being on despite me asking twice about it, to me not liking her telling me, rather forcefully for what i deem necessary to 'write this down', to her telling me when i was talking in metaphor to telling me to not do that. to me sharing alot of painful stuff (i was not upset when doing it, i had the stiff upper lip going) and her not reacting with empathy (or at least as i perceived it).

y'no, i can handle her having an off day. i wonder whether SHE can handle admitting she was off that day. or will, like i am so used to and expecting, will it be another (like my parents) denial of my feelings being real, that i imagined the lack of attunement...etc. y'no, this is JUST HOW PEOPLE LIKE US LEARN TO NOT TRUST OUR FEELINGS OR BELIEVE THAT FEELINGS ARE REAL....BY AUTHORITY FIGURES DENYING THEIR REALITY...enough years of this, and one becomes quite detached from oneself.

is THIS the direction she will take it??? subltly defensive?? 'my fault' for not addressing these things as they happened?? (i was too afraid)

can she admit any part in this 'miss of a session'?

it will be real interesting.

i don't want to go in defensive. i guess, i answered my own question...i want to go in and try to work through my feelings and how i expressed them (granted, not the most eloquent way, i know, not even eloquent for a five year old...too much snot!!) i need to learn those 'interpersonal effectiveness skills' big time. i do see, i let things mount up and then they get really big and i fall apart. i tippy toe through minor issues that i fail to address, and then, i don't blow up at them, i fall apart IN FRONT OF them. my style...passive and helpless, rendered helpless by tears and searching, i guess, for pity. YUK! jill

oh, how the truth hurts.

DF, thanks for your swift response. yes, i bet that was an awkward situation.

i think it is interesting that she wasn't INTERESTED in hearing your apology. that is kind of nice, you know, takes the human/social situation OUT of the room, which is good, t appears bigger than to let that situation drive a wedge. good t, i think.

y'no, that has always been my way, i walk into a room apologizing for being late or early or fat or thin or whatever i can self-criticize, but, i feel that in therapy, i should not have to apologize...yes, if i had called her a big fat beast, that would be one thing. but, i don't think i need to apologize for my feelings to her. i say this, all thinking strong and all, but will probably just be SO WANTING TO DISAPEAR INTO THE WOOD WORK that i will pull my usual card and walk in apologizing.

takes the defensiveness of the other one down, too, so that is always good. just always at MY expense, which is NOT good for me. but, being always self-sacrificing, that is my usual style...

thanks df, jill

HI Jill,

I've often wondered myself, what is it about therapy that makes me so needy? I hate feeling so needy and like a five year old.

quote:

what do YOU say when you come in after a really bad, and rare, midweek crying hysterical phone call???? (assuming you have had one!)

Yes, actually there’s been many! I hate to disappoint, but I don’t really do anything... It’s just like any other session.

quote:

do you walk in apologizing??

Apologize for crying?? No……

quote:

embarrassed and hiding behind your hands??

If you feel embarrassed then I guess you could do this.

quote:

as if nothing happened??

If you want. You could talk about something else for a while and then lead into the issues you were talking about on the phone. I don’t think you necessarily have to bring up “the phone call”, just discuss your feelings around her not liking you- cus those are important.

I’m sure it will be okay, Jill.

Hi Jill,
I just want to encourage you that I lost count of how many hysterical phone calls I made to my T. OK, I'm going to tell you about my most embarrassing in the hope that you will feel better about how you're feeling. You know that my husband and I saw my T for couples' counseling. Now I love to make people laugh, it can actually be quite important to me and one of the the things I loved about my first T was being able to really make her lose it. So my husband and I go to a couples' session and my husband made a joke and our T really cracked up. In my perception, more than he had EVER cracked up at one of my jokes and it was just this really visceral sense of connection between him and my husband.

I was consumed by jealously. I'm talking total insecure meltdown, convinced that my T couldn't stand me, liked my husband better, both of them wanted to get rid of me... I'm sure you can imagine.

I ended up making an emergency call and when he called back and I tried to tell him how I was feeling I started crying so hard he had to tell me to breathe (seriously, I mean it. "Remember to breathe. Breathe AG!") When I could talk I told him how I was feeling and just how utterly stupid and pathetic and immature I felt for feeling that way. His reaction? He was incredibly impressed I was willing to talk to him about it, that the jealously was how I was feeling and it was the right thing to do to talk about how I was feeling. And that he could understand in light of my background why my connection to him might feel threatened by his sharing that moment with my husband but I didn't need to worry, that we were good.

It was rare that I didn't contact him between sessions, especially at the height of our work together. And if we had a tough phone call, he would usually open up with something like "so it sounds like you're having a hard time" and we would talk about the call and sometimes I would tell him how it helped, but either way we could go on to talk about my feelings.

That's what we're there to learn. To feel and own and express our feelings. You don't need to be embarrassed about them. That doesn't mean you won't be mind you, you just don't need to be. I spent a lot of sessions with my face buried in my hands, trust me. Just be as open and as honest as you can manage about how you're feeling.

quote:

y'no, i can handle her having an off day. i wonder whether SHE can handle admitting she was off that day. or will, like i am so used to and expecting, will it be another (like my parents) denial of my feelings being real, that i imagined the lack of attunement...etc. y'no, this is JUST HOW PEOPLE LIKE US LEARN TO NOT TRUST OUR FEELINGS OR BELIEVE THAT FEELINGS ARE REAL....BY AUTHORITY FIGURES DENYING THEIR REALITY...enough years of this, and one becomes quite detached from oneself.

This is the kind of area that can be REALLY difficult for us. From what you say here, I can hear that an authority figure telling you your perceptions are wrong, or denying something they are obviously feeling is a deep trigger for you. I know it is for me, I spent way too much of my childhood being lied to and having reality denied. The legacy is that it can be hard for me trust my own perceptions. I asked my T about it once and he told me "you have to ask." So I understand your anger against your T if you are correct and she is denying her reactions. BUT, I think you need to be aware that you are making assumptions based on what has happened in the past. Your FEELINGS are telling you that she's lying and she can't handle admitting she had an off day. But can you consider the possibility that she wasn't? That you were so sure of the reaction that you were going to get that you saw it in her? Ask her, ask her how she felt and then try trusting her answer. There were so many many times I was convinced that my therapist was angry or frustrated or fed up when he really wasn't. I would literally see it because I expected to. If you really cannot trust what she says when you ask her how she was feeling then you either need to stop and work on the trust or you need to find a T you can trust.

One of the really brilliant aspects of therapy is that we can learn to trust our perceptions because we should be able to ASK our therapist about our perceptions of them and always get a truthful answer.

I called my T once in the evening and although he said all the right stuff, I got a really strong feeling he was incredibly frustrated with me and just wanted me OFF THE PHONE. I ended up writing him a Tolstoy length email asking if he was getting burned out or hitting compassion fatigue with me and if we needed to take a break?

On the other hand, I realized that it might be me just imagining something. But if he was upset, I wanted know because I wanted to be able to trust myself, and that I would rather be honestly hurt by him then have him lie to me.

His answer was awesome. He said he was kind of rushed, and understood how that might come across as irritated but he wasn't. And that it was always good to ask if I thought he was upset in any way.

So he confirmed that my perception was correct in that I really did pick up on something coming from him. It's just that it didn't mean what I thought it meant. And that made all the difference in the world. So ask her.

AG

liese, i'm with you, i hate being five! i didn't like it then, and i don't like it now!

mac, well, i am not one to ignore an elephant in the room, so i launched on in...before i sat down. yuk, no social graces...

ag, good to know i am in good company here!! you hit on something, the trusting my own perceptions bit...she says i was mindreading her response, and judging that she would feel like I would feel, were she...me. you know though. i will say, i think i am dealing with a good therapist, BUT, one not so finely tuned into feelings...a bit too much both feet on the ground. so, i was in part, right. not that she didn't like me (although you can never get a straight answer on that question...just doesn't suit their business) but, she is just not so sensitive as one might expect.

what you said about asking them what their perceptions are...true, but really...do you always expect to get a truthful answer?? i don't. and i think that is just realistic.

i said i was 'too sensitive'...and it is true!! she curbed that, and i can't expect her not too...'you feel emotions strongly'...something like that was said in response.

your quote: "But if he was upset, I wanted know because I wanted to be able to trust myself, and that I would rather be honestly hurt by him then have him lie to me."

yes, i WOULD rather that, and i meant to state just what you said to her...

i like how your t admitted what truth there was to your perception of him being rushed, at least. that is truthful.

she did nothing wrong today...other than, can you believe it...she didn't have the lights off!! that told me she is just not too sensitively tuned. i don't think it was intended to be hurtful to me...and, at least right now, i am not feeling too hurt. early in the hour i kind of looked around, and then up, saw the lights, which i knew were on, and kind of silently winced. she did pick up on that and asked me if i wanted them off. geez, do i need to hit her with a '2 by 4'??? she turned them off and said something about it. i guess i just was in a bit of disbelief that she forgot, so i was in my usual clandestinely stunned orbit.

anyway. thanks all for responding.

the rest of the session went fine, i guess. told her i have a major trigger with not feeling like i 'deserve' to be there, that other people have REAL problems...she said mine were real to me.

i think she did fine, as well as could be expected i suppose. nothing particularly healing, but, i think she understood me better. wanted me to not call 'it' the five year old, but to embrace 'it' as a part of who i am. i told her i need my stuff 'normalized' a lot, and it really helps when she does that. she seemed to take note. i told her i don't know what IS normal...do all people have meltdowns?? REALLY??? told her i need to not let these things build up so that i get triggered and take these random perceptions all the way down the road to a trainwreck.

she agreed, and 'checked in with me' at the end to see if there was anything i was not bringing up. i told her that i would like an HONEST opinion (not all therapist-approved) of where i am...she agreed to the borderline tendancies, especially regarding attachment. and one other, i forgot, but, that's it.

i told her i have accepted that my sister and mom are mentally ill, and that helps take the pressure off of me to always try to fix things with them and make everything better for everyone...that that task is a bottomless pit. it also releases some of the guilt i feel that i CAN'T fix it all and make everyone, including me, happy.

she wanted to talk about the parent thing more than i did. i wanted to talk about me, and how and why i do this to relationships, especially ones i feel dependant upon. we addressed that some, but it is funny. seems all t's are SO UNCOMFORTABLE talking about the here and now relationship. and their diversion of it just makes me want to talk about it all the more. kind of a transference deal, in that i wanted to talk about my relationship...what i MEANT to my parents...it was always unknown...no spoken love, mixed non-verbal messages...clothes and money, but no reassurance or encouragement...ridicule and 'good natured' humiliation. so, this is old strings. and i can't expect them to be full of 'how i feel about you' stuff. i don't know. it just seems unquenshed. and unspoken, and ambiguous. and ever changing...depends, i FEEL, on 'how did i DO that day for them'...yes, this is a bit exaggerated, but, kind of depicts the feeling. i guess, "conditional 'like'"...(as opposed to unconditional love)...

does that make sense??

why, i ask myself, do i have to be liked?? y'no, i think i am getting over that a bit more, though.

i have given myself permission to be my introverted self, as opposed to the extrovert it seems everyone (my mom) wants to be. we talked about that some, how 'peopled' my life is. told her peopled enough. i like those i like, and who pass the fine test of whether they are trustworthy. whether they are safe. and, i am putting her through some hoops.

i think, bottom line, she is safe. she is not terribly compassionate.

how would a t show compassion, though? i answer this, that one would FEEL it. they wouldn't have to show it. it would be FELT. well, i don't really feel it. maybe i am a tough audience. probably so.

i'll finish this out, not a prolonged finish out, but, get the skills bit. she is not the analytical type i crave. she doesn't seem to keen on the unconscious, and, funny, really picked up on a sarcastic comment i made last time about a 'death plot' on my mom. really, it was a joke. (been reading too much freud lately), but she, i guess, has to take that stuff seriously.

she doesn't like me, i know. but, it is ok. she probably doesn't hate me either.

i don't think she hung the moon.

really, she just doesn't blossom with compassion. i would think compassion would have to be pretty high on the list of characteristics of a good t...maybe not, they can't curl up and cry with you, i know. but...."dry"??? (i apparently called her that last time, she commmented...i didn't even remember that barb!)

yes, she is dry. forgets to turn the lights off before i come in...

really,

how LITTLE would that have taken her to remember, and how MUCH that would have meant to me....

i wonder if some of it was intentional. if they are not off next time, i am going to ask her that, as it puzzles me. is it intentional to 'show' me something?? to make me ask??

what do you think?

seems kind of RUDE to play games with me about that.

y'no?

anyway, sorry for the rambling if anyone is still there!!

jill

hey DF. thanks for asking. i haven't been posting much on my deal lately. seems all are probably sick of hearing it. i know i am!

major blood-letting in dbt this week. got off my meds, and i just don't function well without them. realized when i saw a squirrel run across a busy street (and not get hit) and the fear and bracing i was feeling, to the point of big tears and a major u turn to go back home for fear of panic, that, i need my meds. effexor 75.

worst session yet. i let it all out. and somehow she made me feel somewhat cared for. i am sure i project a bunch of horrible shit on her. but, she stays pretty steady and said something really nice that made me feel better.

i had very little guard up, and perhaps it was good. she said for sure i will probably need meds all my life. that was not the good thing. she said something about..'for the record, i think you are not hateful'...as i was accusing her of thinking i was, because i want nothing to do with my mom.

projection.

she corrected it, and this time, i believed her. altho i maintain that she thinks i am ridiculous. i am, i know it, a squirrel sent me to bed, and it didn't even get hit. geez.

so, i am somewhat patiently waiting for the effexor to kick back in.

typical deal, i take it for a month. feel better, think i don't need it, reduce it slowly, then melt down.

at least she saw me at this state which could only help her knowing me better.



how are you?? i know the holidays are triggery for you.

i hate that i don't keep up too well, but, my brain capacity has been challenged lately.

thanks for asking, and, as for where we are. we aren't real 'planned out'...like i thought we would be. i need interpersonal effectiveness skills, and some ways to work through this abandonmnent stuff, so, that, i hope, is coming. IF i can not be in breakdown mode....

xxoo, friend! jill

Hey Jill - great to see you again, been missing you. No, not sick of hearing 'your deal' though I often come up short of useful things to offer in response - still love that you post and feel comfortable here (at least, I very much hope you do).

love,
Jones

oh, jones and df. thank you so much for caring. i haven't disappeared in a pouty way, idk, just more of the same, so what is the point. y'all make me feel cared for. and no, you are not out of line, df. yes, i told her, almost screaming and crying that i HATE coming here, i feel she thinks i am an idiot.

i am sure we will address that next time.

for some reason, and in a good way, she hits all my buttons. they all hurt SO MUCH, but, i guess they need hit. she prodded some thing up that i have never discussed. i told her, but told her i don't want to talk about it endlessly. i reallize i paint a different ending to things that hurt...this, my childhood, many painful years...and i gather this leads to me not knowing who i am. i believe the lies i tell myself, and this whole process of self confessing to the pain really stinks.

i guess this was the first time i felt any compassion from her. and i really needed it.

she is not floating full of compassion, but she gave me some right in the nick of time. i wish she had more to give me. i am a dry sponge for someone to be nice to me, and let me cry. i just want to go and cry and have her be nice to me, for hours and hours and hours. sounds ridiculous i know. geez, $125 an hour to cry and have someone say 'there, there'...i told her many, many times how hopeless i feel. my language mostly began with the f word. i didn't restrain it at all. i sounded like a sailor on their deathbed. i cried, boohoo'd, cussed, said it was hopeless, told her i didn't believe her saying it wasn't coz 'what else could she say??? yea, pal, it looks pretty bad, double up on the effexor and maybe you'll get hit saving a child from a train and die a hero?' y'no? of COURSE they have to encourage. i told her she was in a no win situation with me. she didn't seem really frustrated. maybe, kindof happy that i was getting to the bottom of some of my crap, and throwing it out there. rather than all my flipping pretense i usually try so hard to bring to the table.

the plot thickens.

i told her i want to quit every time, and i was only coming because she said i should, and i was trusting her, for the time being. she told me, after much pressing for a number, a year of therapy. a lifetime of meds.

all i had to reply was my favorite word.

jill

and df, i know ending this t is really hard, like walking in the dark with out a handrail, i presume. but, i am so glad you reached out and made some plans for the holidays. THAT is HUGE!!! don't you think??? i am proud of YOU!!!! and your compassion for me, you are rounding out to be a really put together person, my friend!! XXOO

Df, no, she is not the 'there there' type either. haven't found one of those yet, but i'd pay big bucks for it if i did. i feel most of them think i am a princess, and feel no compassion for me. this was the first time i felt sincere compassion/kindness from her. really. the first. the rest has been just the nice way they 'have to' put up with me, with one eye on the clock.

i am glad you are in a small dbt group. i don't know why i wasn't put in one. i think possibly, since i dont sui. or si, she thought it wouldn't be appropriate. and ALERT SI, i have wondered at times if there was some relief to be had that i wasn't exploring. but, i refrain, to not make matters worse. but, i think of stuff that....anyway, no good coming here so i'll quit. but, i am glad you are in a group. i think that would be so nice, and that the other members can affirm you in ways a t can't...you know?? t's can't say too many nice things, in the 'i like you' realm.

yes, something so healing about our favorite word. so gutteral. so harsh. so precise.

i don't know how it translates into other languages, but, quite ineffectively i am sure!

thanks for the compliment. you ARE right there with me it sounds!! jill

trigger alerts...daterape, csa...

ok i am just rambling, as i have alot to think through, and no place to do it but here. i have thought of calling my dbt gal, but it is a weekend, and really, it can wait. but, i revealed something to her this week that i have always dismissed in my brain with a 'false ending', as i do so many things that are too painful to believe the truth. i create a lie, and believe it, and anchor onto it, and don't 'go in that door' anymore.

daterape, a long time ago. the lie? i got away. the truth, i didn't, i went numb, afraid i would be killed, and i choose always to believe that. the truth, my mom, the only one i told, told me i deserved it because of how i dressed. i believed her, and this was just another layer of shame and guilt and 'badness' i believed, just another small chink in the armour, really. so, it wasn't daterape, i was bad, and a tease. so.

now, i see, intellectually, how that was wrong. it wasn't my fault. i was paralyzed in fear and went numb and dissociated to stay alive. old pattern. so, i am ok.

but, i trully think it is hopeless to EVER get the chinks back in place in my armour. at my age. denial, ok, is an immature defense mechanism, i read. so, backing out of denial into what. intellectual acceptance?? but, does that fill in the gap??

and with the holidays, i can't get my hands on enough therapy right now to enjoy them, and with kids out of school, this is just another year of holding on through the holidays, to get to the other side. all the while, going to parties and pretending, as i have all my LIFE, that everything is ok!!!!!!!!!!!!1

why can't i just go have a meltdown somewhere???????

truth is, i don't even know how to have a meltdown. i don't know how to do anything but lie to myself and to others that everything is allright.

story of my life.

and, a part of me is mad at her for pulling it out of me. details trivial, but, NOW it is real. and i don't want to HEAR that that is the first step to healing...

i am SICK of the blood letting.

i hear in patient is really tough, and i think i can hang on, but, i am so tired of skating on thin ice.

and i don't know that compassion is her game. and all i want is SOMEONE to be nice, REALLY NICE, to me.

to ME!

jill...broken and spent.

Hi Jill
I just wanted to say how sorry i am as well, feeling like you deserved to be raped is torture, and 'blood-letting' is an apt description.

I hope it is like surgery and that the pain lessens quickly for you.
Pandora

thanks df, y'no, the thing is, i HAVEN'T been worrying about this for ever. it was forgotten, but only recalled when i started pondering why i am so resistant to social hugs from men. i stand ten feet away with my arms closed. then, big dawning, i thought, oh yea, i wonder if that had anything to do with it. figured it did, but only when she kept pushing my mom at me did i feel the need to more deeply explain my hatred. and, i was mad at her yesterday for making me tell her, not really made to, but, creating a big elephant with not telling her. and suddenly, it became real. the shame, the guilt. the me=bad.

pandora, thanks. yes, bloodletting so aptly describes therapy to me. i feel weak, and drained, and tired. not physically only, but just weakened entirely, as if half my blood is gone.

pf, so, is that where one goes? into a corner? i may try it. i had some good tears yesterday. deep sobbing. and instead of feeling broken, i felt entitled to them. so, maybe that is good. and, for someone to be really nice to me. my family is, but why is that not enough. i need a t to be. and not this blank icy-ness i feel. but deep, human empathy. deep sincere compassion. i just don't invoke that in people i guess. my walls are too thick most the time, i guess people don't think i need it. but her telling me she didn't think i was hateful was the nicest most restorative thing she has ever said. the first heartfelt comment i grasped. not to say she hasn't had more, but the first one i FELT.

i'm going to tell her some version of that and plead for more empathy and compassion. don't we learn first from a caregiver before we learn to provide it for ourself?? i can't do it til i learn what it looks like, and feels like. do they not get that??

thanks all, jill

pf, right now i am too absorbed in my own pity party to read others. i am sorry, i will look for it. but, i am glad to hear that you were able to pull a wall down and to get the reaction your body needed. i don't know that dbt is the place for compassion and empathy, but that is where i am, and i really hate to make another change, and with borderline stuff...abandonment, predominately...intense emotions, well, it'll just have to do. i wish i could just tell her i need her to be really nice to me, to care, to empathize, to be compassionate. to know that i have a hard time feeling it, or believing it to be true. but, somewhat, if i have to ask, then i will even be more skeptical that it is true. then i ask, WHY DO I NEED THIS FROM A STRANGER!?!?!?

why isn't it enough that my family loves me?

do i have to conquer the world and get everyone to love me?????????????

c'mon, jill.

anyway. i'll look for your post, but i appreciate your telling me it worked for you to relate this to your t. what 'mode' of t does your t practice??

thanks, jill

pf, you have a point, maybe my fear makes her feel she needs to back off. and not come on too strong. like approaching a cat.

while that is somewhat true, dang it, i have NEVER had a caregiver nurture me. NEVER! (i am sure i am in good company!) i just want emotionally hugged!!!!!!!!!!!!!

how much extra i$ that?? jill

Jill, I think it's hard for you to ask her to be nice to you because in the past you've asked people for what you need and they rejected you and said no. (Maybe?) You're trying to protect yourself from being hurt again by telling yourself in advance what their reaction is going to be. (Wow, did I pay attention at my last session or WHAT? )

I don't think it's strange at all that you're scared to accept hugs from guys. I was assaulted 26 years ago and I couldn't get away either (even if I had wanted to but I was frozen with fear anyway) because it was at night and I didn't know where he drove me. And even now I won't go anywhere without directions no matter how close the place is, and I'm terrified of getting lost when it's dark outside even if I know where I'm going. My parents had always said to wait till you're married to have sex so I didn't tell them what happened but they found out anyway because I got pregnant. And they still act ashamed of me. But I realize that's their damn problem. Nobody asks to get raped. I think your T would react with so much compassion if you talked about it.

I'm having a hard time with enjoying the holidays myself so I don't really know what to say about that. I'm just trying to find some little aspect of it that I really do like and keep that in mind when someone/something bothers me.

~D.

Hi Jill
I think that the yearning for kindness is so that you can experience what it feels like to be truly loved and accepted. You can't do it for yourself and it is almost like most of us need someone, other than a family member, someone outside,or better yet a professional to show us so we can feel it and recognise it and hopefully go on to do it for oursleves. Sadly sometimes even when people are being incredibly kind we just can't see it because we don't actaully believe it is possible to be loved or accepted or that we deserve it.

Maybe that is why the first step is accepting our own feelings and then verbalising them to the best of our ability and engaing in some kind of a conversation around how we feel. To me it seems so important that you acknowledge your yearning for compassion even just within yourslef. By doing what you are doing, posting, questioning you are already on some deep level being kind to yourself and hearing your own voice. It is a really big step in the right direction to be saying out loud, i want care and kindness. You deserve it and i hope you are able to get it from your T.

Debbye
I am very sorry to hear what happened to you, it must have been incredibly difficult especially without the support of your parents.
Pan

debbye, yes, you are right on. asking someone to be nice has never gone well. usually i cry, to i guess, subconciously, beg for mercy...not very adult...

pf, yes, a family member seems 'biased', and i feel like i need a merciful judge. never had one, in real life. someone who knows me, doesn't love me, but feels i am worthy of compassion. is that the role of a therapist at times???

pandora, i think you hit on something. y'no? i can't even really perceive kindness, i am too suspicious. so, it has to be really overt for me to recognize it at all. this may be the best way to lead in to what i need to request, without putting her on the defensive. like being 'hard of hearing'....they are going to have to speak louder for me to hear (their compassion) coz it just doesn't register unless it is screaming into my ear!

all, thanks for your input. i guess i feel like i just added another year onto my therapy bringing up this issue of the d.r., i REALLY don't want to focus too heavily on this. just the 'can of worms' a t expects to hear. i can tell they always 'fish' to see if my guilt and 'badness' stem from an abortion, or something. which it doesn't. thank you Lord. but, this is just the kindof hook they like to hang their hats on and seize. and really, it is significant. but not the DEAL. the DEAL is the message i got loud and clear from earliest childhood, that i am BAD. DIFFICULT. TOO SENSITIVE.

THAT is the message i need to erase, the 'cause', so to speak...these other things are the 'effect'...

let's work on erasing the cause, rather than blurring out the effect, as, with the cause still present, there will just be a long line of effects, past present and future, that will have to have on-gong maintenance to ever live right.

does this make sense??

ok, jill ...

learn this,

jill is NOT bad. that's it! just learn that. jill is good, makes mistakes like everyone else, but, jill is GOOD. a better than average wife, mom, friend. she has her quirks, she fears abandonment, she is sensitive, but that has it's merits, too. she is shaped the way she is shaped, and it is good. there is no need to groom her, c'mon, jill, learn and accept this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

agh! maybe a tatoo in my palm to remind me.

guys, you wouldn't believe the medicine stream my poor liver has had to deal with. poor jill's liver!!

thanks pals, if anyone is still reading my rambling!! .)

UNREAL! i enter nicely. say i feel better. apologize for my 'potty mouth', she says that she didn't notice. (huh??? when a patient is full of tears and says f*** 50 times in a one hour period, and you don't notice?? either a lie, or a very untuned in t).

she asks me about friendships. (i mention daterape last time and this elephant is avoided). we talk for awhile about that, i explain that i was so deranged saturday that i nearly had a wreck at three intersections in a row, people were honking at me, i was going really slow, driving, dissociating maybe?? feeling nauseated and bewildered. and that THAT is my concern, not my social life.

why the bewilderment she asks? (uh, reaveling daterape for the first time in my life after 20+ years to her left me bewildered). i told her i felt alone, no one to talk to as i won't burden my husband with that issue. she seems to 'get' that. we talk for ten minutes, then she seems to not know what the lonliness i was feeling was about. i impulsively say 'don't play dumb with me'...she has a neutral reply, i quickly say 'i am sorry, was that mean?? i don't intend to be mean' we laugh, she says she doesn't know, i explain what i explained above, that i feel incredibly hurt that she wasn't following and i was ten minutes into the conversation and she is lost (and doesn't ask). she said she has a few ideas about what i mean, i tell her to go with her strongest one. she doesn't 'get' me. i explain DATERAPE! and withdraw, churning the past few minutes in my head. should i tell her how hurt i am??? she asks what is going on, i tell her if i speak i will be cruel, and i don't want to be cruel. she says she can handle it. i tell her how hurt i am that she doesn't know what i was talking about, that i feel very 'unknown'. very hurt. very sad. very bad.

i had previously told her how much it mattered that she turns off the lights, how much it helped me when she told me last session she didn't think i was hateful, that i called her this weekend and just hearing her voice soothed me. i feel like a little girl who tells her mommy she is pretty, and she loves her, then her mommy forgets the childs favorite color. jilted.

it was a bad session, and the previous one was bad.

she says i talk in 'code', and that she WANTS to get me.

i don't know. i told her i am just another hour on another day, and her forgetting things hurts. i know she didn't forget it, but she just didn't follow me. she says therapuetically i need to bring it up, if she did, it would be met with resistance. i feel it is an elephant in the room, ignored.

i fell apart. bawling. can't afford to think i am striking out again therapist-wise.

i told her there is some fatal flaw in my character that just doesn't invoke compassion. that doesn't invoke empathy. niceness. that maybe i expect too much in people, and am constantly disappointed that what i so readily give others, is not returned. niceness, compassion.

my standards are just too high. she agreed that a t should be 'in tune', then the comment of how i talk in code. i said i am an open book, i have no more depth that what i pour out every week, and it apparently isn't enough for her.

honestly, i think she is reserved, not terribly empathetic. a bit cold, unattached (which you would need to be somewhat to work in dbt/borderline stuff, to not take their 'hits' personally).

i don't know, i just can't believe this. i have tried so hard. i hate to quit, but, empathy is what i need to feel.

she is the end of the road for people like me. borderline stuff. i don't have it in me to start again. i feel like i need to continue with her. back off of my needing to feel liked/loved. know that is unrealistic. get the skills. maybe the warmness will happen, maybe not. but, surely she can teach me more skills. my heart just needs to not be so open for rejection. so begging for connection.

i may send her a nice letter stating some of the above. attach the complex ptsd article tn posted, about how we need empathy. ask her to read it, and to see if we can continue. i need the skills, maybe i can do without the empathy.

i want to get to the end of this stuff. maybe i just expect too much compassion. i am so compassionate, and i assume others are. but t's need to keep a distance, and can't have bleeding hearts for all their patients or they wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning. i need to get more logical about this. this is a service, and she is not my mother, or my friend, or my substitue mother. learn the skills, jill. don't have your heart so vulnerable and so easily stung. accept humanity and at times, errors. don't take them so hard.

how i wish she could be honest. or was she?? did she really not 'notice' 50 f words in an hour?? seems odd.

give her a break jill, back your heart down. get your love met at home. learn the skills. GET YOUR HEART OFF OF YOUR SLEEVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oh, friends. i had wished so much for a healing session. right before Christmas, another boot in the jaw.

i have poured my heart out, i have tried so hard. she said she knows i 'have done my best' which i read that my best isn't enough for her to connect to me. i 'talk in code'...well then, she needs to SAY when she doesn't know what i mean. don't let me go on for twenty minutes feigning connection to have it erupt in a major disconnect!! i feel foolish!!

advise??

xxoo, sad jill

Hi Jill,

Forgive me- this will be short, because I'm really not in the best of places. But there's just something I want to say, something that I've noticed. And it's going to be a lot more straightforward than I normally am.

I think, Jill, that you should try and drop all of your labels. Attaching these diagnoses to yourself (whether you have them or not) creates differences between you and your T, when a huge part of therapy is finding the similarities - finding out that you're not "bad", you're a person deserving of kindness and compassion like everyone else.

Also, I get the feeling that you are aligning yourself (please forget all of this if I'm completely wrong) with what Borderline or C-PTSD patients are supposed to do/say/feel. Again, that is not to say that you may not have these things, but you need to follow what symptoms YOU feel. Try not to list your symptoms and match them up with those of a diagnosis. If I've learned one thing in therapy so far, it's that I need to listen to what *I* feel, and not what I think I'm *supposed* to feel.

quote:

she is the end of the road for people like me. borderline stuff.

People like you... what about YOU? Jill? I am all for you asking for what you need, especially empathy - if you do not feel you are getting it. But try and remember to ask for only what you need, and not what Borderline patients need or what they tend to ask for.

quote:

unattached (which you would need to be somewhat to work in dbt/borderline stuff, to not take their 'hits' personally).

I get the feeling that, in finding the differences between you and your T, it may be hard to see that maybe she is giving some of the things you want (and deserve), but you're not able to see it or feel it. Kind of like having blinders on. I know that I do this some, and I'm sure most others can relate as well. That being said, who am I to know whether or not she really IS unattached? I don't know - only you can know.

Ha, I'm normally not quite so upfront (I'm deathly afraid of making anyone angry or upset with me), so take all of this with a huge grain of salt, and feel free to discount every word. I just wanted to comment on some things I've noticed.

Take care, Jill.

Hi Jill
I am sorry you are in so much pain and that your session was so awful. I would like to share with you what my T said to me about the 'feigning connection'. One day in a rather childish fit of temper when my husband didn't understand what i was trying to say, i said to him that at least my T always understood what i was saying. And my DH said to me are you sure, he probably doesn't but just doesn't say anything. I was horrified at the thought and duly went off to my next session and asked my T.

I have convoluted and sort of zigzagging logic and my T gave a shrug and said that often he got lost but as long as i seemed to be understanding myself or was making sense of it he would leave me to figure it out. Sometimes he said, after a while he would pick up a thread and be back in the conversation but other times he said he never did. Occasionally if he was really lost he would ask but he preffered to let me continue with my own process.

Now i have no idea if your situation is the same or not, my T is CBT and not a man with many overt emotions or a particularly caring demeanour. But he showed his kindness to me in so many ways and one of them was giving me the space to figure things out and make sense of them for myself. It was the greatest gift he could offer me.

One thing i was wondering is if you have a clear idea of what the compassion you are needing looks like? If it is just a black hole of pain inside you sometimes no matter what anyone does for us it just disappears into the darkness. So what does it look like, is it to be understood, cared for, loved, valued, accepted?

So please don't feel foolish, sometimes the thing that is causing us so much pain is a tragic and painful misunderstanding or miscommunication. That said I am sorry that this hurts so much.
Pandora

Hey Jill!

quote:

UNREAL! i enter nicely. say i feel better. apologize for my 'potty mouth', she says that she didn't notice. (huh??? when a patient is full of tears and says f*** 50 times in a one hour period, and you don't notice?? either a lie, or a very untuned in t).

Or she is so in tuned to your feelings and what you were actually saying that she didn’t hear the f****’s in between… if she focused on all the cuss words and not on what you were actually saying she wouldn’t be a good therapist….

quote:

she doesn't 'get' me.

I don’t think it’s about her getting you or not. I’ve realized in the past couple weeks that when I first started seeing him I would be so offended and hurt when he said he didn’t understand something, it was so obvious to me, and I thought I explained it so well, how could he not understand? What would happen is I would tell him some story about how I feel about something and then at the end he would try and summarize or clarify with me and sometimes he would be right but sometimes he would be totally off and like he didn’t even hear me at all! So I’d get mad, tell him he doesn’t understand anything, and drop it, not try and explain why he was wrong. Last session I told him how I’ve been feeling with the disconnect between my mom and I, that she never cares, doesn’t ask me what’s wrong, but I also don’t want to lie, and then I went onto another story and after that one my T said, “So you were saying that you’re mom asks you what’s wrong and you don’t want to lie to her?” I said no, and then explained in more clearly and in more detail how I felt and then at the end he said, “Oh, I see, thank you for explaining that.” The point is I could have never done that in the beginning, but now I know that I’m learning to explain myself more clearly, and make sure that others hear me.

Maybe there’s nothing wrong with her and how she understands you, but with her help you will be able to articulate your feelings more clearly and adapt to another person’s interpretation or understanding. For me I think it’s easy to forget that we are actually in therapy to learn & grow, not point out everything that’s wrong with the therapist and try and change them.

kashley. thank you. you may be dead on. i do identify, scarily, with this mental illness. and really, we are all a mix, so, i need to somehow feel what i feel. not what i think i should. she is probably fine, and we spoke, i called, this morning. and we discussed projection.

i guess i am really stubborn that what i perceive, or 'would be thinking' is what another is thinking. so, i really need to work on trusting her at her word. i guess, somewhere in my past, that trust was proven wrong. but, i am a big girl now, and i can try trusting again. i guess i think everyone is a fake, a fraud. so, thank you for venturing out and being direct with me. i take what you say kindly and appreciatively. thanks.

pandora, thank you, too, for your thoughtful reply. y'no, i think i have too high a standard, for myself, and for others, and this leaves me HIGHLY disappointed alot of the time. i like what you said about your t letting you wander around, and not always being connected, but you accepting that and seeing the big picture. i guess i work everyone into a corner, and then am victorious, because they proved to continue the pattern of 'giving up' on me. but, i am the merciless one in the picture...and yes, what does this blackhole look like?? y'no, really, it can't be filled. no one is going to replace the love i didn't get as a child, and me regressing and acting like a child and expecting t to be that perfect parent and really LOVE me, IS unrealistic.

it helps for y'all to point this out to me, and yes, some of it was human error and miscommunication...and me, jumping to conclusions and trying to read her mind (projection). so, yes, this is about growth. not proving her wrong and me right. that just keeps me where i am.

so, thank you both for your directness and honesty. it helps. jill

oh, the holidays are so tough when you are in shrink problems....thanks for all your advise, and, i guess i see that i pick things apart endlessly, and blame others and am, mad at the world. and even though she is trying to help me, she is not going to break her neck to do that, and i WANT that, which is nuts, i realize. i WANT someone to really care. and, y'no, they just CAN'T!! i have to be good, and kind, and appreciate what they can do and not be so critical and sarcastic towards what they can't, or else, i will be out of luck again.

gee, it is a wonder i have lived this long. i am so down on my 'patterns'....

really, thanks for your honesty in y'alls responses. i know it is hard to put your neck on the line, and not know how it is going to be received, but, i thank y'all. and i am going to keep going, and ask her to help me with my critical and sarcastic attitude. and not expect her to be my perfect mommy.

i'm really going to try!

thanks, jill

Hi Jill
Good for you, this is why we are in therapy to figure these things out and learn how to do it differently. One thing that never occured to me before was that if my needs weren't being met by anyone ever, that the problem migh just lie with how i was realting to myself and my feelings. So it is growth to be engaging with the disatisfaction and anger, painful as it is.

It is these conversations with yourself that are so very important.
Pan

guys, i don't know. i just don't think it is working with her. i see her check the time, i don't feel compassion. we don't really learn skills (me). it is bland, and traumatic, and talk therapy-ish, and i feel yucky afterwords and i think i may just really read the manual and end this.

perhaps tell her the above in some way, and tell her i will stay through january and re-evaluate. i want to give it a chance, but more of my angst in there is regarding HER acceptance of ME, and not thinking i am an idiot, than solving my own problems...it just seems lop-sided.

i don't know why, other than that one session, i just can't seem to get any empathy from her.

and that is so important...not pity, but understanding and validation.

geez, i hate leaving unfinished business, but she doesn't help me discern what is appropriate anger and not, what the hell my emotions are.

it may truly be me, and i hate to walk away. but it seems more traumatic just being there than i think it should.

ugh.

other than therapy days, i am doing pretty well though.

so...

who knows.

confused, again. jill

df, you are right. once, recently, she asked something like 'what would it look like to see compassion and empathy'. i really didn't have a good answer. i don't want a hug, or tears. i guess, just encouragement a la 'jill, you have dealt with some really tough things in your life, and yet, you LOOK and SEEM so ok, i know you crash sometimes, but, you have a right to. never being loved as a child, by anyone, never hearing 'i love you' as a child, not to mention how alone you felt in having to keep the csa to yourself. no one to help you. jill, these are big issues, and you are a survivor. you have been so strong, you are NOT weak, you are strong in realizing you need some help now, and i really want to be able to help you to get on a more balanced way of life. you have my support 24 hours a day if you need it, and i feel very hopeful you can get to where you want to be'.

words are what i need, body language escapes me. leaves me cold, i don't see what ever i need to see there. and skills. real teaching. not me blabbering and slobbering and crying and feeling ALONE in it.

thanks df, you are wise for your years.

all i can do is tell her the above, and see what happens.

i feel like i am never satisfied with her.

thanks, jill

you know, it is ME putting so much emphasis on HER caring. come on, jill. she is not mommy, she can't make up for that, she can't cross boundaries that i am sure, although i don't like them, are for my own good. no, she is not perfect, but, jill. let her help. quit fighting her, quit faulting her for not being exactly what you want. cross that bridge, jill. come on over. let her help you, take it for what it is.

agh!

y'no, she made me write my goals in life, or values, i forgot how she put it, but, it helped. and really, her liking/loving/caring is not a goal!! learning is. and i am not so blasted vulnerable that i can't learn with out being cuddled figuratively in her lap!! jill, you are stronger and less needy than you imagine yourself to be.

imagine her a stranger, which she is, interloping inside your brain for a bit, pointing out the sandtraps and the fairways. take it as that, you are not a leach in need of a donor!!

agh! ok, i feel better. jill