Glad to know I'm not the only one that had a problem with everything there lately. I was shocked when he came out with his original "guidelines" for submitting a comment. I'd thought of buying the book, but I purposely did not because I so resented that it was some sort of requirement. I can appreciate that he maybe got burned out with all of the time he was spending replying to comments, but there are better ways to handle it. The therapist who writes What A Shrink Thinks simply turned off comments because she realized that she'd rather not have comments instead of either spending too much time replying or leaving all of them unanswered.

I can't believe he said that to you. I can't imagine you'd write anything that was disturbing. It is disappointing, though...this recent turn of events. He does have some very valid insights, but it's harder to take them in when I'm now questioning the motivations behind his writings, you know?

Anyway, hugs to you.

(((KASHLEY))))

Oh my gosh, thank you so much. It's been bothering me. Validation always helps. I wish I didn't need validation anymore but it's nice to get. When a psychologist tells you your comments are very disturbing, it carries a bit more weight and authority than if my 13 year old had said that.

I had never read over there - which is something I should have done before buying the book I guess. I had never asked for free advice. I specifically bought the book so I could participate in the discussion group. His participation in the group was disappointing. His blog seems to be a medium for him to work through his issues with some psychological insights sprinkled in there for good measure.

Thanks,

Wow Liese, I am sorry he said he was disturbed by your comments. Nothing you have written on this forum has ever struck me as disturbing.

I have some mixed feelings about that blog myself. On one hand he seems to have some interesting thoughts and insights. On the other hand some things he's written and ways he's responded to posters have given me pause. The most striking one to me was what he recently posted about a "borderline" ex-client who got angry at him and left therapy after he told the client it must be painful for the client to compare himself to him (the therapist). Can you really say something like that and not expect to piss off your client? And would you post about it on a public blog later on?

Futhermore, if I remember correctly, he is a stickler about self-disclosure (he believes the less the better) and yet he keeps such an extensive public blog? How does that work out?

((BLT))

Yes, I read that one about the borderlines. I had the same reaction you did.

quote:

client who got angry at him and left therapy after he told the client it must be painful for the client to compare himself to him (the therapist). Can you really say something like that and not expect to piss off your client? And would you post about it on a public blog later on?

It was as if how dare the client think he's on the same level. At least that's the impression I got. I can't help but wonder if that particular ex-client reads his blog and, if so, how he felt about the way he was characterized. He talked about a woman recently who left therapy with him. He blamed it her, I think on the fact that she couldn't make a commitment. He changed his policy for her and then changed it back again and that's when she quit. Oh, and that poor client who went to visit his old college roommate. What if he's reading the blog? There is something "off" there.

I told my therapist about that poor borderline. He has his own opinions about him that validate mine actually. (He might be biased though. )

Yes, I agree with you that some of his responses to posters have been a bit snarky.

I didn't like his characterization of shy people. He said something like, underneath their mild manners are feelings of arrogance, competitiveness and contempt. I've know extroverts who possess those feelings as well. I sent in a response that I copied from wikipedia portraying alternative and more positive aspects of shyness from sociological and cultural perspectives but he told me it was hostile and he wouldn't publish it. I thought my recent comments were complimentary but he told me he found them disturbing.

I do feel better now. Thanks for chiming in. The experience has made me appreciate Shrinklady and this forum so much more. I've expressed myself quite often to Shrinklady and she's never told me I was hostile or that she was disturbed by my comments. She has also always been willing to explain anything when I've asked and has allowed me the room to express my opinions. Thank you Shrinklady!

Liese,

I'm sorry that he said that your comments disturbed him because I can't imagine anything you saying in a comment that could be disturbing to anyone much less a mental health professional. I have had much more positive interactions with him though so I want to say that I've been reading his blog for a long time and have found parts of it incredibly helpful. I even had a Skype session with him once.

However, since he published his book he has been different. I have purchased the book but haven't had time to read it and I haven't read the last couple blog posts.

I have found that his articles sometimes seem unfinished, he just seems to touch on a subject and never goes deep enough.

I also find him to be very "self self self".

Oh that must have been pretty awful to get a comment like that from a supposed professional! 'Disturbing'???? Did he explain how it was disturbing, or was that just him refusing to accept comments on his blog that are less than full of admiration and praise for him? No surprise that he has a special interest in narcissism lol.

I'm sorry though that he's alienating so many people and painting such a negative picture of himself now, I always liked reading his blog because even though most of what he says I think is shit, it's still good to have blogs about therapy and psychology to read. The rate he's going I wouldn't be surprised if he shuts down his blog and that would be a real shame .

I did buy his book in the end but haven't tried to join his book forum yet. I don't think much of the book because it's typically superficial and too general and not saying anything that hasn't been written about a zillion times before. Which is a pity. Mind you I haven't finished it yet so maybe it gets better.

I am really sorry Liese you had this experience with him, nobody needs to be told that, even if your comments were 'disturbing', he could have found other ways of telling you he didn't agree...

LL

(((COGS)))

quote:

However, since he published his book he has been different.

That could be it. I think he had a fight with his publisher and decided to self-publish. He keeps saying sales are better than expected but maybe they really aren't and whatever grand ideas he had about himself being able to self-promote his book have been crumbling a bit - which might explain his testiness lately. Just a theory. But I am glad that your interactions with him have been positive. I've ONLY been visiting the site since he published his book so I have not seen the more positive side of him.

Scars, I've been thinking the same thing about his articles too. In fact, in the one on shyness, he was all over the place and it wasn't clear to me at the end exactly how everything tied together. It was as if he took a little of this and a little of that and put it together but it just didn't work. Yeah, and the self, self, self stuff. That seemed to be a huge factor in the whole book thing and the free advice he had given out. I actually felt sorry for all the people who had asked for free advice and who were given free advice - not knowing that it wasn't really "free" and having to deal with his resentment afterwards and possible guilt feelings. I don't think he saw that side of it as he was having the discussion on his blog - how what he was saying would affect those people, although maybe he wanted them to feel guilty?

My therapist actually works with me specifically on being able to accept "things" from people without feeling guilty or obligated. I think he is working from the theory that we are all responsible for ourselves and if a person is giving expecting something in return but not presenting it that way, well, really, it's their own fault and they need to take responsibility for their own emotions and actions.

I was a bit surprised that he wasn't onto himself sooner. IDK, to me it's just a given that everytime I give, I'm usually trying to get something for myself and I'm not even a shrink with a blog.

quote:

Oh that must have been pretty awful to get a comment like that from a supposed professional! 'Disturbing'???? Did he explain how it was disturbing, or was that just him refusing to accept comments on his blog that are less than full of admiration and praise for him?

LL, Not only disturbing but very disturbing. No he didn't explain himself. When he told me my wikipedia post was hostile, I asked him twice to tell me what parts of it were hostile so I could address that specifically and do a little self-introspection if need be. But he never answered me.

My latest submission was more or less positive, I thought. I told him I liked his post about being positive and not focusing on the pathological. Although I did say that I felt his characaterization of shy people in his previous blogpost was negative and felt it was a problem with our society in general - that we tend to glorify extroverts and it would be nice to see some positive aspects of shy people being highlighted.

I don't know, I didn't think it was that disturbing. He hadn't published that response and so I asked him again to please at least respond to me (as he hadn't responded twice the week before) and that's when he told me my comments were very disturbing. I asked him, do you hate me that much? Okay, I was being a bit dramatic there. But I think my therapist would have been proud of me for asking for what I wanted directly - which was a reply. Funny how two people with Ph.D.'s in psychology could view the same behavior as being at the opposite ends of the mental health spectrum.

Thanks for the compassion, LL.

And, last but not least, Dragonfly, thank you for your input. Thanks for saying you haven't found my posts disturbing. (Maybe my little "me me me me" escapade? Although it was meant with the best intentions, I did go off the deep end that morning. But, thankfully, you've all forgiven me.)

quote:

I was quite frankly horrified and disgusted by the whole borderline post myself and have stopped reading there.i dont find the place healthy at all.please dont let this get to you will you?

Now that I've heard what you all have had to say, yes, I won't let it get to me. It helps a lot. BUT, I wish I could have just handled the way you did and just stopped reading there. I just keep running into that brick wall and wish I could just stop doing it once and for all. Although, I guess I did make a financial and emotional investment in his book and the discussion group so maybe it was a little harder to remove myself from it?

Hi Liese,
I also don't think anything you've ever said to be disturbing on the forum.

"I told him I liked his post about being positive and not focusing on the pathological. Although I did say that I felt his characaterization of shy people in his previous blogpost was negative and felt it was a problem with our society in general - that we tend to glorify extroverts and it would be nice to see some positive aspects of shy people being highlighted."

I don't see anything wrong or disturbing about this...in fact I feel it's true. There is nothing wrong with being shy!

I have read his blog but not in a long while as I don't find anything really different that I haven't already heard before. I thought about getting his book because of the title but never did because I wondered what some of you thought of it first.

I think it's great Liese that you bring up many issues that personally I think about or even when I don't think about them I find a lot of benefit from them even though I don't often post on things.

Thanks for bringing this out as it has been helpful and interesting to read everyone's thoughts.

Hopeful

Wow Liese, so much of this is eerily reminding me of things that happened with my ex-mentor M. She didn't have a Ph.D., but she did also have a blog (and a forum) as well where she seemed to answer almost every single post and comment and was basically giving out free advice. She also published a book during the time I knew her. And she also gave me all kinds of "free" advice and communication, which I thought was just friendship but it turns out to have had a lot of expectations attached which when I didn't meet them, she no longer wanted anything to do with me and told me how horrible and ungrateful I was. She also refused to tell me anything specific about what I did or said that she didn't like.

People like that can be so dangerous! They seem to draw in vulnerable people who want help and advice, then they give it for a while until the recipient breaks their unspoken contract, then they will turn around and reject and shame those same vulnerable people.

quote:

I was a bit surprised that he wasn't onto himself sooner. IDK, to me it's just a given that everytime I give, I'm usually trying to get something for myself and I'm not even a shrink with a blog.

I'm also struck by that, Liese. Wasn't he doing that for months and months before it occurred to him to notice his motive in it? I mean, why did he THINK he was giving out so much free advice? You might expect more self-awareness in a shrink of all people.

Oh well...

This thread has been interesting for me to read. I've noticed that Burgo doesn't always say the nicest things about his clients, but I've put it down to it being his style-- detached and analytical, can translate as very blunt. But reading that so many of you have had a different sense, that something is a bit "off" makes me wonder about my own perceptions a little. I sometimes think my expectations for people are very low and because of that I excuse a lot. Might make for a healthier life and relationships if I raised my evaluating standards a bit. Reading about what happened to poor Liese here strengthens that impression. Hmm. Stuff to think about there.

I do think Burgo has good insights and I've learned things from his blog over the months I've read it. I've also bought the book and participated a little in the discussion group, but I find doing that level of psychological self inquiry goes much better in session with my T. Still have found the book worth reading and the purchase price.

(((Liese)))

I was horrified to read that he told you something so mean and harsh about your comments! It even worked it's way into my dreams last night. There is nothing disturbing about you.

Hopeful, BLT and Held,

I'm running out to my session now but will be back later to comment.

Hi, randomly popping in to comment. My only experience is having posted two comments there, one of which he replied was insightful, freaking out about exposing myself, asking for one to be deleted. He deleted both for me. Then he was reassuring that it was OK that I needed it deleted and OK if I wanted to continue to participate...BUT, all of that was before he became massively disappointed in how his book did. I haven't read regularly there ever or commented other than that one day. I did notice that he can get kind of defensive when someone (even politely) disagrees with him completely.

And no, Liese, I have never found a single thing you have written to be disturbing. I am kind of disturbed by his reaction and thanks for sharing it, just in case I ever did have the inclination to comment there again, I'd probably be safer not to...that sort of response would trigger all sorts of awful things in me. Good for you for speaking up for what you wanted/needed, for inspecting your own side of things and for believing that you're not the problem!

Hopeful,

Thanks for your support. It means a lot. Thanks also for appreciating my neurotic need to talk about my stuff. LOL!

BLT,

Oh, that's so interesting that you see a lot of parallels. I think I understand what you went through with M quite a bit more now having had this experience. I can see how it would really screw with your head because it was really screwing with mine. I'm so glad I had you guys to talk this through with. You probably didn't have anyone at the time to talk to about it, did you? And then to have the experience you had with your last T? You've had a lot of bad luck, coming across these types of people.

quote:

People like that can be so dangerous! They seem to draw in vulnerable people who want help and advice, then they give it for a while until the recipient breaks their unspoken contract, then they will turn around and reject and shame those same vulnerable people.

Yes, they can be dangerous. I'm not a T but even if I was, I'd never tell someone their comments were very disturbing. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't say that to my kids. I just make an assumption that if I used that kind of language, I'd be trying to make someone feel bad or if something was really wrong with them. If I was really and truly disturbed about something they said, I would probably say we have to talk more about it but I certainly wouldn't say it the way he did.

My T and I have been talking for weeks about him, since my first encounter. Honestly, he has cheered me on from the beginning when I felt I had to be assertive about the book discussion group. He has used the word "narcisstic" several times. We also talked about the fact that he pulled the book from his publisher and must have had a fair bit of ego invested in "proving" he could self-publish it and when that didn't happen as successfully as he had hoped, he took it out on us "vulnerable" people instead of being angry at either himself or the publisher.

My T and I decided there was a huge amount of displacement going on there and how ironic given that the subject of his book was defense mechanisms.

I get the sense that he has a vision of who he is or who he wants to be and that being a successful author is part of that. Putting himself out there through his blog leaves himself open to judgment or criticism. His peers have the opportunity to compare and judge and I bet there is a lot of face-saving stuff going on there.

If you really just wanted to write a book to help people, would you really care how many books sold?

I'm sorry for that crappy experience you had with M. It does sound like she used you and that really sucks!


Held,

Thanks for the sympathy. It helps a lot.

quote:

I sometimes think my expectations for people are very low and because of that I excuse a lot.

Maybe it's not so much that your expectations are low (well maybe) but maybe it's because it's all you know. Maybe they are low because you don't have a sense of people treating other people with respect? I don't know. I didn't grow up in a household of respect but I still reacted strongly to things he said. Actually, my T says anger is a step up from not feeling anything. Maybe you are still numb?

quote:

but I find doing that level of psychological self inquiry goes much better in session with my T

I agree with you there. I felt the topic was too sensitive to discuss with just anyone. I haven't even gotten to it with my T yet.


Anon,

Thanks for your sympathy as well. And, it's so nice to see you btw. It DID trigger all sorts of bad things in me and a couple of years ago, it would have devastated me. I have struggled with this but in general, I'm handling it much better than I would have not that long ago.

Liese, thank you for the validation about M. Even though I'm sorry you had the experience, it feels good to hear you say you can relate.

quote:

You probably didn't have anyone at the time to talk to about it, did you? And then to have the experience you had with your last T? You've had a lot of bad luck, coming across these types of people.

Haha, well not exactly. Around 8 months after I got dumped by M, I got in touch with another former member on her forum and found out that she'd had a very similar experience. That helped me quite a bit to talk to her about it. As for the experience I had with my old T...while it was confusing and I don't think she handled the situation very well, she certainly didn't openly shame and reject me. She just misunderstood what I needed to do well in therapy, I think. And as far as luck goes...I don't think it's luck. I think I was walking narcissist bait at that time in my life, mostly because of the experiences I'd had growing up and what I thought was normal.

quote:

My T and I decided there was a huge amount of displacement going on there and how ironic given that the subject of his book was defense mechanisms.

I know, right? M's book was supposed to be about healing through relationships

liese,
i'm sorry you had this awful experience, like you say for an experienced therapist to use words like that (to an unsuspecting person he doesn't really know) is so unprofessional! it sounds like you handled this amazingly well!

** sorry didnt feel comfortable leaving the other critical comments up.....

puppet

(((BLT))))

quote:

As for the experience I had with my old T...while it was confusing and I don't think she handled the situation very well, she certainly didn't openly shame and reject me. She just misunderstood what I needed to do well in therapy, I think.

It's good to hear that she didn't openly shame and reject you. That stuff is really painful. My T says that everyone who goes into the field went into it for a reason.

quote:

And as far as luck goes...I don't think it's luck. I think I was walking narcissist bait at that time in my life, mostly because of the experiences I'd had growing up and what I thought was normal.

I know. It's just going from M to the therapist. It HAD to be difficult.

(((PUPPET)))

I am amazed that also that he speaks about his clients and his ex-clients so freely. He doesn't name them but it just feels unethical.

I have heard some positive things about him from people who have worked with him - incuding COGS up above. He IS human after all, with needs for success and admiration like anyone else. The problem for me, though, is as BLT says, he picks on the weaker and more vulnerable people. When all that stuff was transpiring re: his book sales and his resentment, I got the sense that he was a bully, trying to bully us "scavengers" into buying his book.

It seems as though it all comes down to power. He has some. He has knowledge. A degree. Expertise. A blog. He doesn't understand what it feels like NOT to have any of those things. All he understands is what he wants and needs and how other people (those without power) can get help him reach his goals. To me, there is a huge lack of genuiness re: his blog. How could anyone believe he is what he says he is after learning that his interactions with people on the blog seem to be solely geared towards selling his book? And now, that the book is out and he's feeling open and exposed and criticized, he's losing interest in the blog.

On the plus side, he has provided a lot of fodder for us, right?

So glad you guys are there.

I wonder if your comments just accidentally added up to look (to him) like something other than what you felt or meant, Liese? Sometimes it happens on the internet, when we have such limited information about each other. According to what you write here, there's a whole lot of complex context going on for you with working out how to ask for what you need; according to what he's written on his blog, there's a whole lot of complex context going on for him with setting boundaries and figuring out his own unconscious motivations around giving. There may be many places between the two where critical information was lost.

I don't have a dog in this race (and totally agree that I've never seen anything 'disturbing' in you Liese!) but I do wince a little bit to see someone's professional reputation given such a thorough run-through in a public space like this, when they're not around to clarify any misunderstandings. Do we know, for example, that he doesn't alter his client stories to make them unrecognisable? Most therapist writers do, just as they may be required to alter details in supervision.

It's true that he has some visible power, but we all have power, whether it's visible or not. To write in this thread, for example, is a demonstration of power. One of the problems with having power is figuring out how to use it best, balancing the needs of the self and others. That's what I got from his writing about his book-sales stuff - that he was working with bringing his unconscious impulses and needs to light around it. Doesn't seem all that sinister to me, but maybe I missed some things.

you make some very good points Jones! especially about all of us having power - and the immediate result of such a power if we post on a 'public' forum - just as he does.
i do feel bad for bashing someone i dont' even know, i guess i was feeling protective of liese and maybe identified with his lost clients and projected my own stuff. i suppose we all have to be careful what we write on a public forum - just as he should be - as its not just a conversation we're having between friends. at the same time, we should be able to feel free to express ourselves and speak our minds.

liese if i delete or edit my previous post, i really hope you don't think i am not on your side, because i totally am!! its just that jones made me realise the complete transparency of the internet and that freaks me out.


puppet

Thanks, Puppet, for the considered response. It is tricky, because on the one hand there is a real right and need to express ourselves and share information that might help to keep others safe, and on the other hand there are the issues about balance, reputation, right of reply and stuff. In any case, I'm certainly not trying to make anyone feel bad here. But I think the power issue is worth thinking about - especially if you remember that everyone here is protected by a pseudonym, whereas he has his real name and real livelihood out there. I'm not saying that should make him immune to criticism, but that if he's acting in good faith and something inadvertently goes wrong in all those communications he's having, he potentially has quite a bit to lose.

(((PUPPET)))

No worries. You do what you have to do.

(((JONES)))

Always good to hear the other side of the story because as my parents constantly reminded me when I was growing up, there are always two sides to every story. (I hated that!) If I hadn't been on the receiving end of things here, I might feel like you do. I view this as my community. I come here for support, which is what I did in this instance. Not unlike going to office and discussing a problem with my friends with the exception that this is a public forum. This type of thing happens all the day, every day, in larger and smaller ways. It just is. It's something we all have to live with. We might find it distateful and we don't have to accept it ourselves but with the internet in our lives the way it is, it's very much a reality.

It might be unfair (though I'm not sure it is) that I came here to vent about my experience with him in a public forum under the protection of a pseudonym while he doesn't have the chance to present his side of the story but his reputation is his to protect. It's neither not my responsibility nor yours. I haven't said anything that is untrue. I was looking for validation, not to ruin his reputation. I don't regret anything I've said nor do I feel bad for him. He has lots of supporters, friends and resources.

quote:

I wonder if your comments just accidentally added up to look (to him) like something other than what you felt or meant, Liese?

It's quite possible. I'm still pretty sure I wouldn't speak to someone that way, especially if I had an advanced degree in psychology. As an authority on a subject, which is how he presents himself, I would know that my words carry more weight than the average person's words and I would try to be twice as careful about what I said. He made choices. He was not powerless here.

I asked him twice to respond to me and explain what was hostile so I could address it. Jones, he chose not to. He had the opportunity to explain himself to me. The third time I asked for I response was when I got the "very disturbing" response from him. Again, with no explanation as to what was disturbing.

Had he published my comments or replied to me in some humane way, this thread would never had opened. I'm very much a believer in "every action has an equal and opposite reaction". He shut me down over there and so yes, I did come here and demonstrate my power.

quote:

but I do wince a little bit to see someone's professional reputation given such a thorough run-through in a public space like this, when they're not around to clarify any misunderstandings. Do we know, for example, that he doesn't alter his client stories to make them unrecognisable? Most therapist writers do, just as they may be required to alter details in supervision.

You would think that he would alter his client's stories to make them unrecognizable. That was my first thought as well but have you read them? They seem to be verbatem accounts of what was said in session between himself and his client. He wasn't writing about the details of the clients life but, in both cases, he was talking about why two clients had left therapy with him. It sounded like a recounting of actual conversations and interactions between himself and the two clients. It did seem as though he felt bad that they left. It appeared to me that he was publicly working out why they left. If that was you, how would you feel if you read that?

quote:

According to what you write here, there's a whole lot of complex context going on for you with working out how to ask for what you need; according to what he's written on his blog, there's a whole lot of complex context going on for him with setting boundaries and figuring out his own unconscious motivations around giving. There may be many places between the two where critical information was lost.

That's very true.

quote:

But I think the power issue is worth thinking about - especially if you remember that everyone here is protected by a pseudonym, whereas he has his real name and real livelihood out there. I'm not saying that should make him immune to criticism, and something inadvertently goes wrong in all those communications he's having but that if he's acting in good faith , he potentially has quite a bit to lose.

Again, it's his business and reputation to protect. He does not have a right of reply. That right only exists in a court of law when someone with power is trying to take away something from someone who doesn't have power. It might be nice if he had the chance to reply. It might make it more fair??? Maybe?? But there is no right there. And, again, it happens all day, every day, that people much less fortunate than him don't get the chance to reply.

Good faith is nice but it's not enough. If a doctor was acting in good faith but failed to act with care and diligence and your mother or your baby died as a result, I think you might have a different opinion.

As for the power issue, it's something I think quite a lot about having struggled with issues of powerlessness my whole life. Some people just do have more power. I believe that's a fact. I believe he has more power, in many respects, than I do. Just a fact. Not everyone will agree with me here but this is something I have come to believe very strongly in over the course of my life.

Aside from any legal, moral or ethical considerations, it's my opinion, however, that if the world is ever going to become one of inclusion, not exclusion, one in which everyone's needs are taken care of - not just some people's, we have to change the way we think about power and powerlessness and I believe those in power need take responsibility for their "special" status - even those with personal power or social power.

While it may appear that those in power don't need the powerless and can act with abandon and/or with wantonness, the truth is they wouldn't have power if there weren't the powerless. They are dependent upon the powerless for their good fortune.

I make an analogy to the dependency/independency thing. The client is much more dependent upon the therapist than vice versa. My therapist had negative views of my dependency and was denying his own dependency - not because it wasn't there but because he didn't want to acknowledge it. He wasn't as dependent upon me per se but is dependent upon all of his clients. To deny his own dependency and, in effect, make me hold the dependency feelings entirely on my own is a distorted and slanted view that promotes good feelings in him and bad feelings in me. But is that what therapy is supposed to be about?

I feel the same way about power issues. People might deny that those with personal and social power do not have to take responsibility for the way they treat others but if we are to make a kinder, gentler, more humane world, it's my opinion that yes they do.

End of rant. Just my opinion.

Hi Liese
Just a short note here as my internet is playing silly buggers with me for three days running now.
I do get 100% what you say about the power issues or power play as I call it myself.
ND

Hi Liese,

It's not my intent to protect or defend him - I don't know him, beyond being an occasional reader of the blog, and of course I didn't see the interaction between the two of you. I just wanted to make a little room for some of the things that were not otherwise too visible in this thread - the unknown places the communication might have gone awry, the possibility of good faith, the issues of public reputation & different stakes.

In a certain sense I agree with a lot of what you say about power. But I don't see the power equation between two adults as being 100% vs 0% in most instances - or even a zero sum equation, where one person has lots of power therefore another person in relation to them (which person? all of them?) must have less. Often people have wildly different evaluations of their own power, relative to how other people see it. I've been shocked, for example, by the times I've heard/seen that what I did or said had a hurtful effect on Manatee. It's been important for me to come to understand I have that power, and am responsible for it, just as he is for his power. Otherwise I can lash out thinking I'm at 0%, when my actual effect on the world demonstrates otherwise.

For what it's worth - and offered with good will and good wishes. If it doesn't add anything, feel free to ignore.

((((JONES))))

You are right about not always being aware of the power and/or of the actual effect we do have. Just to be clear, when I started this thread, it was not my intent to muddy his reputation. I was feeling really bad about being told my comments were very disturbing and I came here for support. (He could have said, I'm triggered by what you say. It's my issue. Not yours. But I need to ask you to refrain from submitting any more posts.)

When I mentioned power in the thread initially, it was more in reference to how I felt in response to him refusing to publish my first comment (which was mostly a quote from wikipedia) to him refusing to respond to what I saw as my openness, wanting genuinely to know where my hostility was so that I could learn about myself - because I didn't feel hostility when I wrote it. And then, of course, everything else that happened after that.

It was as if I was the crazy one and there was no relation whatsoever to what he was doing and saying and how it was impacting me. That's where I saw the power imbalance.

quote:

I just wanted to make a little room for some of the things that were not otherwise too visible in this thread - the unknown places the communication might have gone awry, the possibility of good faith, the issues of public reputation

I tried hard to understand where he was coming from and was open to finding out where the communication might have gotten screwed up. He shut me out.

I'm having trouble finding good faith on his end. I don't think he wanted to deal with me and that was that. If you see any good faith anywhere in what we've talked about, please let me know because honestly, I don't see it. I think if there was good faith, it was on my side.

This might sound callous but I'm not concerned about his reputation. I was protecting myself by coming here. I was hurt. As a professional, I know how important one's reputation is but again, it's my job to protect my reputation and his job to protect his reputation.

There were plenty of others who noticed the things I have. Does someone deserve to have a good reputation just because? Don't you have to earn it? If someone screws up, do they still deserve to have a good reputation? I'm just asking. Don't mean to make you defensive.

Are only professionals entitled to a good reputation? Why would their reputation be any more important than anyone else's?

I'd hate to come across as unwilling to look at this from another point of view. However, I was/am still feeling a bit beat up by the experience I had over at the other website. The validation I got here was really helpful. It's hard for me to feel any compassion for him whatsoever because of my experience there. Maybe someday but not now. It's just too soon.

I read the blog a few times. I dislike him so I quit reading it. He really seemed into power with his clients to me.

Hi Liese -

Sorry, different timezones and I'm a bit short on time. I know the the 'very disturbing' comment would have stung a lot and I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with you drawing on your community for support about it. Obviously it was far from your intent (or your habit) to be 'disturbing' so it's a shock - and it really bears thinking about what happened - I'm guessing you will do that from a few angles as time goes on.

A couple of things give me possibilities for relating to where he was coming from (not for thinking that you are disturbing, but for thinking how he got to that).

One is imagining (this is probably an exaggeration, but will convey the idea)- what if he had got thirty emails that day, public and private, from people who hoped for or expected psychological insight from him, and who were relating to him as though they were (de facto) clients? What if responding to each one of those in that mode and with a treatment ethic for the psychology of the people involved would have taken him an average of half an hour each? What if some of them would have required a much longer correspondence to deal with in that way, because he simply didn't know the person or he could tell there was something complex and delicate going on? If this were you, where would you draw the line, and how?

Dammit I gotta go but I'll come back to this when I can.

hugs Liese.

"it's okay if your shoes aren't doing it"
i don't mean to stray from this thread, but that is quite possibly the most amazingly adorable video i've seen in my entire life!

(((STOPPERS)))

(((JONES)))

There is no way you could have known that I've been struggling with this for weeks ever since I bought his book and joined his discussion group. After getting all the feedback here, it's clear to me now that it wasn't personal. It helped a lot. It seems to be just how he is. It could just be simply a matter of him deciding how he is going to spend his time.

It's his blog. He can interact with people the way he wants to and run it the way that suits him. I can make the choice to read it or not. I am ready to let it go and move on.

Hey Liese ((((Liese)))). I won't harp on then - I'm glad you found a way to let it go.

Happy holidays.

Jones

(((JONES)))

Happy Holidays to you too!



(I'm not good at importing so this will have to do. We need some holiday emoticons. )