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im wondering, my theory is that my T is making it harder to handle my feelings because i dont "believe" in her, whatever that means or there is something about her that makes it harder to bear some of the pain i experience. her take is that it will be this hard with anyone. i dont know if that's true.
has it been your experience that some T's make you feel more hopeful than others and how do you discern between what is pain that would be easier to bear with another T versus pain that is going to be painful w. any T?
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Rock... pain and grief are very hard no matter the T you are with. But I do think some T's can make you feel more hopeful than others when you work with someone who has been thru your particular process and feels a high comfort level with it. What I do think, in most cases, is important is that you develop a good solid attachment with a T because then you learn to self-regulate emotions through them. You can internalize them as a stronger-wiser other and you use that connection to ground you and get you through the highs and lows of doing this kind of work. I do think you need to believe in your T to do the hard stuff. There needs to be a good foundation of trust there. You don't always find it with every T. It took me 5 tries to settle in with this T who I'm very attached to.

TN
DaRock,

Why don't you tell us more about how the situation is causing you pain? That could be a key.

I think you have to believe that your T can help you in order for therapy to work. Since you do not believe in her, it doesn't sound like it's going to work well. Also, I do believe that some T's can give you more hope than others. I had a T I thought gave up on me but the one I have now believes in me.
oh liese...thanks for asking.
basically i just feel completely unable to tolerate the feelings i experience in my life and in my therapy. and my T tells me to take meds, tells me to keep trying and tells me she understands and all of these interventions made me enraged and i start attacking her. i explained it a little in another post but its basically like i feel that she is not there for me because nothing she does or says is helpful and i feel crippled by the pain i experience.
thats pretty much what happens. i get so upset that she is failing me that instead of seeing it as trasnference i just go after her with insults and rage and once that happens she is just incapacitated and all she can do is nod and stare at me. im shocked she hasnt thrown me out. i did this to my previous T and she did throw me out but then she said i could come back and then after coming back for a couple years i quit. whatever is going on is a pattern but i suspect i find these T's who show weakness and i just exploit them.
DR, the way I see it, there's nothing magical anyone can do to make your feelings more tolerable. Medication might help or might not, and everything else that can help is hard work. When you arrive at the attitude that you're going to keep trying no matter how hard it is, then you'll be in a position to make progress.

Incidentally, there are LOTS of great techniques out there for managing anger and rage. There's CBT stuff about figuring out the thoughts that make you angry and help you think calming thoughts, there's body-based relaxation stuff, EMDR, exposure therapy using imagination, and probably lots of other things. But you can't even get started with those if you keep focused on attacking your therapist verbally then quitting.
quote:
Hi BLT-
did it say somewhere in my post that I was wondering if there was something magical that can be done?
I dont think I am looking for anything magical. Tolerable would be nice.


No, but if you fly into a rage simply when someone suggests medication, acts understanding, or tells you to keep trying, it seems like it would take something almost magical just to be tolerable to you.

What is it you would like your T to do or say that would be more helpful to you?
DR, just so it's clear, you experience the pain all the time? Even when you are not in therapy?

I think it's just about owning your pain and learning to live with it. It sounds like you are trying to disown it by making the female T the cause of your pain. It would be great if we could get rid of our pain by blaming someone else for it. I've tried that. Doesn't work well.

The thing is, it will feel awful and horrible when you acknowledge that the pain is coming from inside you but I think therapy can help you figure out a way to resolve the pain. I used to feel like I was carrying around a HUGE sack of pain and with my T's help, we've been focusing on it and now it feels like a tiny sack. A lot of it had to do with the inability to emotionally connect with other people and the pain of lonliness. It is a killer. I am married with four children and yet often felt very alone.

Good luck!!!
it's not a matter of something she does or says. its her presence. i want someone to just be a person who makes me feel hopeful about myself.
i feel badly about myself around her. around many women for that matter. my nervous system just collapses whenever sensitive material is brought up.
i could be wrong but i dont think what im looking for is magical. ive had male T's who did not arouse this rage within me. it feels belittling to hear you say im looking for something magical.
liese, i think youre right.
the pain is always there but it gets much worse when talking with the T and then after our sessions. i think part of that has to do with realizing its inside me and it feels endless.

im not sure i think she has caused it. i dont usually get mad at her for causing it i tend to get mad at her for not helping me to bear it.
quote:
i could be wrong but i dont think what im looking for is magical. ive had male T's who did not arouse this rage within me. it feels belittling to hear you say im looking for something magical.


Yes, it can be true that someone's gender, personality, or appearance can trigger different feelings because of associations we have with them. If there are T's you feel less reactive towards, I think working with one of those would be a great idea.
(((DR)))

quote:
i feel badly about myself around her. around many women for that matter. my nervous system just collapses whenever sensitive material is brought up.


That is very interesting. From what I remember, you have trouble with romantic relationships and also have a tendency to be a pleaser with women? So either you are the victim or they are?
poppet, i understand everything youre saying. so interesting about horse therapy. ive worked with prisoners and i know what you mean about externalizing rage.
do you know any horse therapy places in new england?
liese, yes, a pleaser until i become the one who pushes the other person away bec. i cant keep pleasing. so i get victimized for a while and then i turn the tables and say see, this is what it feels like to be a victim.

its actually quite complicate. im a T myself so i have this whole articulate and emotionally aware side and thats what most people see. what but the hinges come off, there has to be someone who has a very strong personality and knows themselves very well to help me contain myself. otherwise ill just go bananas, which is what im doing here with this T. she just emailed me to say see you tonight. i dont know how she takes it.
HI DR,

Found this in trauma treatment article and thought you might find it interesting:

quote:
There are two particular and related types of EPs that should receive special focus in Phase 1: aggressive and persecutory ones. Both are fix- ated in the protective “fight” defensive subsystem, and attempt to man- age the difficult emotions of rage and anger related to feelings of loss, helplessness, despair, hurt, terror, or shame (Van der Hart et al., 1998). These EPs must be addressed early in therapy to provide adequate stabi- lization and to prepare for Phase 2 work. Often they are first indirectly addressed through the ANP who is in executive control. As it becomes more safe for the patient, these EPs may be addressed more directly (Van der Hart et al., 1998).
Such EPs are part of the emotional fight defensive subsystem, but have strong belief systems that serve as psychological defenses, such as the be- lief that one’s self is strong, unhurt, and capable of carrying out over- whelming actions of rage and revenge. Aggressive EPs often experience, or at least present, their identity as strong and capable of protecting and fighting. Persecutory EPs tend to experience and present themselves as the original perpetrators engaged in the original traumatic actions.
Persecutory EPs, like their actual perpetrators, do not have regulatory skills to manage anger and rage, or the pain, shame, needs, and fear that underlie much of their hostility. They often desperately fight for con- trol, attempting to silence fearful EPs, but doing so in ways that are imi- tations of the real perpetrator’s actions and words that only heighten the fears of the other parts. Thus, a vicious cycle of fear and rage/internal punishment develops. Therefore, these parts must learn alternative ways to acting out rage and to cope with intense feelings.
In early treatment both types of EPs are usually quite active, creating instability for the patient and within treatment. The aggressive ones may make active contact with the therapist in direct verbal engagement re- garding lack of trust and the shortcomings of the therapist. The per- secutory ones may remain internal as hidden but terrifying, hostile and
Steele, van der Hart, and Nijenhuis 35
demeaning inner voices, often threatening the patient “not to tell” of the traumatizing events, or causing the patient to reexperience these events such that she becomes overwhelmed and avoidant of therapy.
Much work is needed to expand aggressive and persecutory EPs’ re- tracted field of consciousness beyond defense tactics. The therapist must constantly explain the protective functions of aggressive parts of the personality to other parts in order to foster cooperation and empathy. The therapist must strive for direct, respectful, and empathic contact with the EP, paired with good limit setting on aggressive behaviors, postponement of destructive behaviors, and skills building (cf., Van der Hart et al., 1998).
((((DR))))

That's it!!! She represents the split off part of you that is a pleaser and is passive. Your feelings of rage are really towards yourself and NOT her but you cannot tolerate feeling those feelings because they are laden with shame and so you are directing them at your T. That's why you want someone stronger to "knock" you around and keep you in place.
Today w. T it was hard to take in what she is saying. I also noticed when I am able to take things in, feel humiliated by her interpretations. For example she pointed out today that it seems like my mom sees me as an extension of herself and is not aware that I am a different person. This is true but when she said it I felt insulted, angry and alone. I told her this and she said nothing. She almost seemed like she was half asleep. When I told her that she seemed sleepy she said she was. I said this relationship is not helpful and she said she thinks that this feeling of her not helpful is not really about her being sleepy its about something else. I feel its hard to feel connected to her and hard to take in what she says. This is what leaves me feeling so freaked out.
I left angry and called her and said I wanted to leave. She called back to say we should talk about it. I have worked with her for 6 months. This same kind of scenario has happened, no exaggeration, almost every single week. It is not getting better.
I really do not know what to do since if I leave, I will feel a loss and loss is hard for me. I feel really trapped.
(((daRock)))

It's so hard to tell whether or not she's the right T for you. You are going to have to figure that one out.

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I also noticed when I am able to take things in, feel humiliated by her interpretations.




This is key. Pay attention to this.

quote:
she said she thinks that this feeling of her not helpful is not really about her being sleepy its about something else. I feel its hard to feel connected to her and hard to take in what she says.


It's interesting that your mother viewed you as an extension of herself. My mother did the same with me and I had/have some pretty pent up anger towards her. Sometimes I hear myself saying some pretty nasty things about people in my head and wonder where the heck it came from.

It sounds like you have some deeply embedded anger towards your mother that you are struggling with now. If your mother was a bit controlling, is it possible you were teased for being a mama's boy and hence your anger when she has been compliant and passive?

Ask yourself if your therapist is really a bad person. What is a therapist supposed to do anyway? What are you expecting from her?


Don't expect me to keep replying to your threads if you do not respond to my replies.
hi liese,
thanks for your reply. Smiler
my mom was quite controlling. i was not much of a mamas boy. i was more wild and rebellious. but i was also close to my mom. someone told me that for a wild kid i was the biggest mamas boy they ever met.
i think her being compliant and passive and my being angry over it relates to something having to do with "if you obey me you must be beneath me" or "if you let me push you around you must have no back bone" or something like that.

this T is not a bad person. not at all. she cares a lot. what is she supposed to do? i think all she can really do is listen and help me get a handle on my feelings somehow. but all that is happening is that she is listening. the things coming together part isnt happening i dont know why or at least it doesnt feel like it is.

what i expect is to have a better handle on myself and i guess that is happening. but not to the extent that i would like it to...maybe i need to be more patient.

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