Hello NavyMe welcome to the forum. Good to see you taking the plunge and posting on open forum

I'm not the best person to be trying to answer your questions, seeing as how I am constantly berating myself for not doing things the 'right way' in therapy as well I can say though that actually, there isn't a 'right' way to do therapy, you can only go along with whatever comes up in the moment (even the best laid plans I've worked out for having a successful therapy session get scuppered.) I've decided that it's not possible to see or be aware of internal changes happening as they happen, it's only further down the line that things FEEL different, and that's usually because it's a gradual process that takes place out of conscious awareness. Well that's my current theory anyway

I'd say though that three months in therapy isn't really long enough for big change to take place - lol for me that's a mere drop in the ocean of time needed for me to get to a place of safety with a T enough to enable change to occur. It sounds like your T is doing skills training with you, is she also fostering the actual relationship between you? A lot of research points to the common healing factor in all therapies as being the nature and quality of the therapeutic relationship itself, as that seems to be the catalyst for important internal changes to happen.

When your T says that she thinks you're further ahead than she expected, what does that mean to you? Is she talking about your external coping skills, or is she referring to a growing strength in you? Could you perhaps talk to her about what you've just written in this post, about the difference between changing behaviours and changing how you feel? Lol the one thing everyone is probably agreed on, is to keep talking to T about everything that comes up.

Best wishes to you NMe

LL

Oh gosh, NavyMe, I've been in therapy for four years and you've probably made more progress than I have. You are probably doing fine.

Thanks guys....

Can anyone tell me.... Is it normal to go in with 'adding more stuff to the pile' every week.... for the past 3 months?

I mean, we've done some empty chair work, some basics of EMDR and some MBSR...but where does the information stop and the 'work' begin... Did it already start and I failed to notice?

Navy,
Be patient and kind with yourself. You are doing well. Believe in yourself. ND

So... I really enjoy the time I have with my T... She's friendly, approachable and isn't afraid to call me on bullshit...But I have an appointment tomorrow and I'm feeling weird about it.

Last week she recommended a book, and wrote down the title for me... When I got home and looked into getting it from the library etc, I couldn't find the title of the book anywhere... I thought perhaps the title was wrong and I emailed her asking if perhaps the title was "The 5 love Languages" instead of "7" as she had written down. I didn't send the email to be obnoxious or anything, I just didn't want to get the wrong book...y'know?

Anyway, she responded right away saying "Hrm, how embarassing" confirmed that I had the right title, and apologized for the confusion... It felt like a light hearted kind of message...but who can tell really...

The next day I still couldn't shake the feeling of feeling like a gigantic jerk for having asked if she'd been wrong, and I kept running through the worst possible scenarios, and felt like it might seem as though I'd gone out of my way to correct her... And I sent an email saying all that and apologizing...

She didn't respond.

Anyway, my usual appointment time is tomorrow and I hadn't sent the usual email confirming our appointment... I sent it tonight, and she responded within a few hours confirming our appointment...

But now I'm worried about tomorrow, do I bring it up? Do I take her lack of response as an indication to let it go? Am I complicating it unnecessarily? Is she going to be irritated?

Hi NavyMe,
I don't think you did ANYTHING wrong by asking about the title of the book. Your T got the title wrong and as you said, you just wanted to check to make sure you had the right book. But I can certainly understand your nervousness about having done so. You expressed a need (not a major one mind you, just a need to know that you had the right book.) And your T responded to that need by admitting she got the title wrong.

For me, this interaction would have raised a few red flags because of my experience as a child. Firstly, it was NOT ok to express my needs, so I became very ashamed of expressing them in an attempt to avoid doing that very dangerous thing. So even though your T responded to the need, it sounds like there is still a great deal of shame attached to the fact that you asked. The second would be an authority figure admitting to me that they messed up. Your T said "how embarrassing." If I had ever made my father feel embarrassed, it would not have ended well. So the fact that something you pointed out, put your T in a "bad" light, may feel very threatening to you as well. So you ended up feeling like a jerk and apologizing probably out of fear. Her not responding didn't help at all, I am sure. But my guess is that she saw the level of anxiety the situation was producing and wants to deal with it in person so that you can fully see that there is no problem (see her body language, hear her tone of voice, etc in addition to her words. So you can "feel" that she really isn't upset with you.)

As for bringing it up, this is EXACTLY what I believe you should be discussing in therapy. This dynamic probably plays out in many of your relationships, but with your therapist you have a safe place and person to be able to look at and understand your own feelings and what it says about your beliefs. I know it can be scary, but I really would urge you to bring this up. The fact that it's bothering you enough to post about is a good indicator that it's important to discuss in your session.

And I don't think she'll be irritated at all, but no matter how she's feeling, that's not what this is about. Therapy is a safe place where you are able to express all of your feelings without having to worry about the other person. It's your therapist's responsibility to notice and attend to her own feelings. You're not doing anything wrong at all to bring this up or to talk about how it has felt for you.

AG

Thanks AG,
The relationship between my T and I has been, to this point... good and I guess sortof...surface? I mean, I repeatedly walk out of there feeling a bit raw, etc...and generally get a 'Hmm..Wow' moment a few hours/a day later...at which point I generally send an email saying how I appreciated the session, and why... and then confirm a session for the following week.

This would be the first instance where I've been actively afraid of having done something that might jeopardize things or piss her off.

I hadn't really considered it as a 'stating a need'...but I tend to fail at the 'what are your needs' considerations with my T, and put things that other people deem to be a need in the 'want' column... After all, if I can't provide it for myself and classify it as a 'need'...then it's disappointing, y'know?

I guess I'm afraid that if I bring it up and she says "It's fine", that I'll have trouble with seeing that as the truth, and it will bring on some insecurity, apologizing and other such junk...

Update...

T brought up the book title thing first thing in our session and apologized for the confusion again...

We went on to talk about the actual anxiety about it, and whether there was anything she could say to make me feel better about it. I told her that a part of me knew it was all fine, but a bigger part was very comfortable with being sorry, and being wrong... So, that elaborated more into whether the insecurity came first, or whether attaching that insecurity to her did... Big long discussion about it all, really eye opening... Just sent her this:

Hey T,
I wanted to thank you for your patience and understanding today.

I think it's probably the first time I've been able to tangibly see that the feelings can be entirely separate from the situation (chicken/egg). It's funny how much power over the situation that takes back, and while I don't really understand yet how I will get to the point of quelling that feeling and actually dealing with it in the moment without making it about something tangible that can be worsened or resolved... I can actually see the concept of them being two different things merging together, instead of just being about whatever I've attached them to...

Again, it's like I've been staring at a spoon for hour being frustrated and confused, and someone coming along and saying "it's a spoon", and feeling like it all finally makes sense... Well, perhaps not the best analogy, but...hopefully it makes some sort of sense... Anyway.. I'm sorry that it came out the way it did, and wanted to sincerely thank you for the patience and for allowing the conversation to go the way it did...

Anything you might be able to suggest for working toward recognizing more of it, being more 'in the moment' and whatever mindfullness concepts you can continue to bring... Would continue to be huge...

Thank you for recommending the book, I'm not sure I was able to properly get across what I got from it today..But much like the 'spoon'...It was a big eye opener toward feeling like the 'needs' I want to put out there aren't so...alien after all.

I usually find myself overusing the words 'I'm sorry', and being concerned that they'll lose meaning... But here I hope that the vast amount of things I'd like to "thank you" for on a regular basis...Don't cause those words to lose the depth of their meaning

Hi NavyMe,

I'm so glad you had such a productive session with your T and that she was really understanding. I have a question for you about the following:

quote:

.. So, that elaborated more into whether the insecurity came first, or whether attaching that insecurity to her did.....

By insecurity are you referring to all the feelings you had about it being wrong to ask? And by the insecurity you attached to her, you mean that you thought she'd be mad at you?

And so you and she were trying to separate out those two different sets of feelings?

I agree with everyone else that you did nothing wrong by asking her about the correct title of the book. I was trying to think how I would feel in a similar situation and I was thinking that if I was in the same situation as you, that a part of me would feel as though I was being mean or petty by pointing out that.

Although I would think that about me, I certainly didn't think it about you. You handled it so graciously. But I guess I can't help but wonder if that is a part of it, kind of like you might have felt that you were shoving it in her face, which you clearly weren't but you felt that way?

I don't know if that makes sense or if it is too convoluted. I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say here. I think I'm trying to say that when I have to be assertive, I always feel as though I'm being mean or selfish. I wonder if those were the messages I got in childhood around being assertive and asking for what I wanted or needed to know.

It was interesting to me that you said a bigger part of you was more comfortable being sorry or wrong. I can't help but wonder what kind of message you received as a child when you needed to be assertive or ask for what you wanted?

Sorry to ramble on but I totally related to all your feelings and have struggled with all that in therapy as well. I love your spoon analogy. That's so exciting that you were able to see that the feelings can be totally separate from the situation. That is called mentalizing. And it's awesome. It's what is going to get us out of the big mess we are in. I still can't do it very well in the moment. It's taking me a long time to get there. So go easy on yourself. Although, hopefully you are a faster learner than I am.

xoxo

Liese

Hey there,
Thanks for the well thought out and engaging response

One of my biggest issues is that I will create a reason to be 'Sorry' out of nothing... And today was the first time I was able to realize that it is the -feeling- of being sorry/insecure that comes first, and the 'attaching' that feeling to someone/something comes after the onset of the feeling itself.

Once the feeling has latched itself onto something (ie: Needing to ask for clarification on the book and being worried that I had come across as wanting to correct her or point out the mistake), it snowballs for me. My head takes it from this small seemingly insignificant thing all the way to ugly extremes and replays difference scenarios over and over again...

...Will she feel like I don't respect her because I corrected her? Will she not want to book my next appointment? Will she sluff it off as though it was nothing, but really be bothered by it and just not tell me? What will her being angry look and feel like? Will she stop being my T?

It wasn't until we talked about it today, and she asked me directly if there was something I needed to hear to know she hadn't been upset by it and I responded with:

"No, the logical adult side of me knows that your response was light hearted and that you weren't angry, I just can't convince the scared smaller inside part of me of that."

We're just starting to get into the details of childhood trama that is the root of these types of things. The idea of the 'little ones' inside you that are fighting with the big logical adults is new to me...but the more we delve into it, the more it makes sense. It's scary...but I'd really like to wrap my head around ending the cycle of forcing the insecurity and apologies onto the people in my life...

NavyMe,
I'm really glad that you talked to your T about these feelings. It sounds like she is very open to discussing what is going on and staying non-defensive which is a really good thing.

Having that "spoon" moment is very important. My T kept telling me that our feelings are not always an accurate reflection of reality. When our feelings are really intense, and are strongly based on our past, they can feel like they are reality, that there is no other possible way to see it. Learning to step back and put some space between the "I" who is having the feelings and the feelings, to recognize that our feelings may not be the truth of the situation is crucial, and also extremely hard to do.

At one point, I asked my T how would I know if my feelings were accurate or not, and he told me I couldn't know, I would have to ask. So began a long phase of me checking with my T about what I thought was going on and what he was feeling. Once I learned to do that with him, I learned to do that with other people. I was kind of amazed at how much was going on in my head and just how many assumptions I was making about other peoples' feelings to "fit" what I expected to happen and what I was feeling. So I think you just took a very important step, as I think the first time we recognize this "psychic space" is the hardest. Feelings come and go and change all the time, but the consistent self who is having the feelings remains. You're doing good work.

AG

Hi NavyMe,

Just wanted to say that I really identified with the following:

quote:

..Will she feel like I don't respect her because I corrected her? Will she not want to book my next appointment? Will she sluff it off as though it was nothing, but really be bothered by it and just not tell me? What will her being angry look and feel like? Will she stop being my T?

For a very long time I thought that my T was going to be angry with me for asking for my needs to be met or if I got angry at him or questioned him about something. And, to be honest, even though he tells me he would never be angry with me and there is nothing I could do to earn his disapproval, it has taken probably close to one million ruptures for me to really understand on an emotional level that he isn't going to get angry with me and terminate me. I kept waiting for him to get frustrated with me and angry. I thought the same thing you did, that he'd say he wasn't angry but that he'd really be angry underneath and take it out on me somehow, by being mean or saying mean things. It just hasn't happened. He hasn't seemed to mind that I have needed to do this over and over again until I really really knew that he isn't going to be angry or frustrated. But I needed to do it over and over again.

I guess these old templates die hard. I am just at the point now where I am feeling it's okay to feel what I feel and when the guilt creeps in, I'm getting better at pushing it back.

You sound like you are doing great work with your T and it sounds like you have a really nice relationship with her.

Hugs,

Liese

Hey AG,
Thanks for responding. I have a question for you... Have you (or do you feel as though you might at some point) get to a point where you don't actually feel that way in the first place anymore? Or is it just about controlling it outwardly?

I really can't remember a time, going back... that I didn't seek out opportunities to apologize, reasons to find and be sorry for something I -might- have done, etc... Only with those very close, or those I had a lot of respect for...It's fairly selective I guess.. And as much as the 'Holy crap it's a spoon' is immensely helpful, I find myself questioning whether or not it will always just be about remembering that it IS a spoon...opposed to tossing the spoon out and carrying on.

Any thoughts?

Hey Liese,

I'm glad you were able to identify with what I said, sometimes the internal snowball can feel like you're very alone in feeling that way...


Would you be able to explain what a 'rupture' with your T means?