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65 replies

Am I overthinking this?

L lieseMember
Sorting through some difficult emotions with T. He thinks I want a romantic relationship with him. Let me tell you, I have done my fair share of admiring him from where I sit. But I do not have fantasies about us being together in a romantic way. I had asked for a permanent second appointment on Thursdays and this past Monday was offered an every other weekly spot at 4:30. Basically an impossible time for me. I would have to do so much juggling and the stress would be unbelievable. I took it at first because I was so happy he had something. But then I went home and said, "ya know, it's really not going to work for me. I'll have to take my chances."

So, I called his office on Tuesday. Left a message to that effect. Call me if you get an opening on Thursday. They usually call the day before with cancellations. Yesterday, then, would have been the day they would have called. I did call his secretary in the morning to make sure she got my message and to ask if anything had come available yet. She said no.

Yesterday was a bad day for me, waiting for his office to call. I went through so many emotions from fear to anger and basically decided I had to get on with my life. I had to make plans for today because it felt like the healthiest thing to do. I'm so tired of what I do to myself. It's excruciating. I've done everything I can to get an appointment. I can't take an appointment that doesn't work. It's in T's ballpark now. It's his responsibility to get me an appointment or not. We've talked about how hard it is for me to make it through the week only seeing him once. He knows I'm not functioning well. It's in his ballpark. I've screamed and yelled and done everything I can.

So, what I've been trying to figure out is, do I really need to see him twice a week? And why? What is he giving me? I thought it would be a good discussion to have with him and we could figure it out together.

Anyway, so this morning, his secretary leaves a message, do I want to come in at 12:45? Now to my knowledge, he does not have 12:45 appointments. I have the 12 on Mondays. 12:45 is his lunch. I have never ever ever been offered a 12:45 appointment. When I got her message, that was the first thing I thought, Oh gosh, that's his lunch. I thought, well I shouldn't worry about that. I need to think about what I need. I need to see him and if it's his lunch, he'll have to deal with the fact that he gave it up. Then I thought, oh, he'll be angry with me for making him give up his lunch. And, I countered myself with, I can't worry about that. It's his problem. If he made the offer, I can't worry about his emotions. But then I realized that I would worry too much about it when what I really want to do is sort through all these other emotions and this is a complete distraction.

A while back, I had the feeling that he had the 2:15 slot open on Thursdays. I discussed with T the fact that his secretary always made crazy excuses every time she offered me the 2:15, which was adding to my paranoia. He agreed that she shouldn't need to make excuses as to why a slot is open. Now I don't know if that slot is open or not anymore but my next paranoid thought was, oh, the 2:15 is still open but he doesn't want to offer it to me because then I will know that it's still open and he didn't offer it to me. So, he's not giving up his lunch. He's switching the two appointments around.

Then I decided that this was all way too overwhelming and again, distracting from what I really want to focus on and I'm not feeling emotionally capable of dealing with all of this input right now.

So I decided to pass on the 12:45 appointment. Then I thought, ahhhh, he's testing me to see if I will take it. It's his lunch and he knows I know it's his lunch because I'm always there at 12:00. He wants to see if I think I'm special. There is a disorder where people want to feel special. I forget which one. So then, I think, oh god, I really have to turn this appointment down, because I don't want to give the wrong appearance of needing to feel special when I don't think that's it at all.

And then I go back to, I should just take it if I want to see him today. But all this crap is just too overwhelming for me to sort out so I think I'm going to pass. I need to focus on whether or not I really need to see him twice a week, if I do need to see him twice a week, if he can give me a permanent appointment or not, and if not, I guess I have to find a new therapist, right????

Oh for christs sake, will someone please turn this brain off????
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smileysmileyMember
Liese - I think if he offered an appointment, regardless if it's his lunch or not, if you think you need it take it. I wouldn't worry about his lunch - he's a grown man and knows when he can eat.

As for your brain, I know the feeling. Sorry I can't help much. My answer is to just blow it off my shoulders and I'm sure you don't want to do that.
seablueseablueMember
Liese,
Oh you poor poor thing!! I wish I could turn it off for you. I agree with smiley that if you need the appointment, take it. I think it is important to try to trust your T to manage his own boundaries and trust that he will not offer something he will be resentful about later. I also think it would be unethical for him to have the sneaky motives that you described in your post, so as hard at is it, I think it makes sense to try to trust him.
Having said that though.....I know how how hard it can feel when the thoughts won't stop!! It can really send me into a state - that is for sure. Do you think you could talk to him about your worries around the Thursday appt? He may put your fears to rest and give you some much needed relief.

I hope you are able to take care of yourself and do what you need for you.
L lieseMember
Oh gosh guys, I really think it was a trick!!!

I wasn't going to respond to the call but I finally decided to call and say, oh gosh, I didn't hear from you last night so I made plans.

Make it sound like I'm busy. Like I have a life. Like a real person.

I call the secretary and say, what I was going to say. And she says, Oh sorry Liese, sometimes we don't get the cancellations until the morning. And I say, oh isn't it his lunch? And she says, Oh no, babe, he's going to take his lunch at 1:30. Let's see. I have a 1:30 open, a 2:15 open, a 3:45. So I'm like, oh, no thanks, I'm good.

See, he was trying to see if I wanted to feel special, I think. Who the hells knows. Who the hell cares anymore. I just hate feeling jerked around.
yakusokuyakusokuMember
I can get really wrapped up in assuming all these strange manipulations on my T's part. The times I have brought it up, he emphatically denies it and I believe him...for a time. Wink

I don't think he was trying to play some sort of trick on you or use this as a diagnostic tool. I try to tell myself that a busy T does not have enough time and energy to be playing with all their clients' minds that way. I agree that if you need a second appointment, you should take it. I am struggling with the same dilemma with T offering me phone calls two Fridays in a row. And, yes, I get paranoid thoughts that he is performing some sort of test, like seeing if I am purposefully freaking out during the week in order to GET him to offer a phone call...which I am not, because I have been freaking out for months and he has only offered the past two weeks. Yet, I still think he somehow is playing this illogical game with me. So, I really understand how hard it is to be honest about this stuff. And, I can't blame you...it is unlikely there were so many last minute cancellations, so your choices are that he and his secretary were unprofessional by not getting back to you about his availability earlier, he was waiting to hear back from other clients who were on his "waiting list" for an appointment first or he is game playing. I think you should call back and see if one of those later slots is still open. It is pretty likely that the most logical scenario (either he had an off day and forgot to call or had other clients who were in line first) is the true one. But, you have a real opportunity here to:
1. Find out the actual truth, which I'm sure he will tell you, which will lessen the power of these projections in the future...but they will still be there and sometimes still feel very real (but maybe you will have a message in the back of your head countering that feeling).
2. Work with T to see what is underneath your assumptions that he is playing games with you. It might be something in your past or something that he does or a combination of both. The past is good material for therapy. And if he's doing something that's triggering you, he should know so he can be at least aware when it may be happening, perhaps even careful to watch for misperceptions.
L lieseMember
Thanks Smiley, Seablue and Janedoe,

I'm really thinking he was testing me to see what my intentions were as far as wanting to come twice a week. Since I am a bit split off from my emotions, I can in all honesty go in there and say to him, no I don't want a romantic relationship with you and maybe sincerely mean it but because of my little, ummm, problem, I might not be telling the whole truth.

On the other hand, since I saw him on Monday, I've been working really hard to figure out if there is a part of me that does want that and he doesn't know that because I haven't seen him since then.

I don't think his secretary is ditsy. I think she does what he says. She sounded really stressed when I called yesterday morning. Like, "oh god, I have to lie to you again? I can't take this." I don't know if you remember but I gave her a scarf over Christmas and she looked really really guilty and said, I'm sorry for what I do to you.

He definitely plays with his schedule. I know he does. It's a fact. Now are you going to help me or not????
J janedoeMember
I'd tell him it's not ok with you for him to being duplicitious with his schedule. Then he can either get it straight, his schedule and what he is telling you.

I know when I want more from my T than she can give, I sometimes get angry and frustrated and start thinking she is just messing with me. Maybe that is what is going on for you with this.

Maybe his thinking you have intentions you are not saying or "admitting" (like romantic ones when you don't feel that is going on or are not sure - but sounds like you are not saying outright and he is just interpreting even though you are not saying) - his interpreting into things that you are not saying (and probably don't even have), is leading you to respond by thinking he is having intentions he is not saying too about the relationship...

maybe? I dunno... just some random thoughts... I could be totally off the mark and if so, pls just ignore.

hang in there,
~ jane
L lieseMember
Thanks Yaku and Janedoe,

We just talked on Monday about my romantic intentions. He wanted to know if I was having fantasies about having a romantic relationship with him. I told him that I stay very much on top of myself. That I read a lot about transference and hash stuff out with you guys. and, so even though he and I haven't talked about it. For christs sake, I'm in therapy to get better. I know my romantic life SUCKS the big one. Maybe I want more. But I do think that I really accept the limitations of my relationship with T. He is attractive and caring. I get all that. But I'm dealing with it.

Anyway, so that's what I told him on Monday.

I'm 99.9% sure this was a test. Never, never, never has a 12:45 been available. There would be no reason to switch the appointments around unless it was a test.

But that's okay. Maybe he needed to test me for his own peace of mind. Maybe he needed to know if I'm really being honest with him.

I'm also really starting to trust my instincts re: his secretary. I know now that she definitely has had guilt in her interactions with me. I heard it in her voice yesterday morning when I called. I'm trusting my instincts. They are there for a reason.

Oh well. I just want to go have a life. Maybe I'll go shopping. Why worry about all this stuff????

Thanks for hashing it out with me.
ladygreyladygreyMember
Liese,

I don't think it was a trick. Schedules can be quirky and there are so many variables that can impact a schedule. I think he was simply trying to fit you in and was willing to juggle his schedule to do that because there was some degree of flexibility in his schedule whereas you had indicated that you did not have that kind of flexibility. I think he was trying to be accommodating.

However, I do think it is strange that the secretary called you, "Babe"!
yakusokuyakusokuMember
Just food for thought, so please take no offense...

What if it is a test? Is it necessary to "pass" (i.e. give T the answer you think will make him feel secure about this question)? Is the test about your romantic feelings? Or is it maybe about your honesty with yourself and T? Does passing mean doing what you think he wants? Or does passing mean being true and choosing to trust him with your feelings on how his actions confuse and hurt him? What does "passing" mean? What does it get you? It builds a block the understanding. You may feel it is necessary, because his actions have made you feel unreceived, untrusted. What does "failing" this test mean? Are there consequences or is it just your T trying to "know you" in a way that he's not sure you're aware of consciously. What are the consequences of failing to acknowledge or confront the presumption that he is testing you? Might you erroneously presume future manipulation where there is none? Might he interpret your non-objection to complete ignorance, or worse, permission to act deceitfully toward you in the future, as the ends justify the means? I think assumptions like this really must be confronted, and in the therapy relationship (where trust is THE essential ingredient), allowing it to go unaddressed can be a lost opportunity, even a setback. It seems like neither you nor T is in a place of trust right now regarding this relationship. I'm sure it will be worked through eventually, but this is an opportunity to take the initiative, if you are ready. And it's completely OK if you're not. Like I said, just something to think about and absolutely no judgment. Sorry if this doesn't make sense. I am typing one-handed while dealing with my toddler and holding my infant nephew. Smiler
L lieseMember
LG, thanks for replying. This man works like clockwork. Very organized. I'm not sure he was being flexible if all these other appointments were open.

Yaku, All very interesting points. Thank you. Quite honestly, I would so much rather he talk to me about it all then subject me to this? It just makes me feel humliated and stupid. Like he's playing with me.

so help me think through the next step. Let's just say that he WAS testing me. And, if I took that 12:45, it would mean one thing to him.

But I was on a different plane. Couldn't deal with all the attending emotions. Turned it down.

Now, I'm just pissed off that he's game playing. And that he's been game playing with his schedule. It all makes sense now. I've been invalidating myself. I second guess what I need. I hesitate to ask for it. And then I get strung along with his stupid float list. And he just lets me get strung along.

For Christ's sake, guys, I hate to admit this but I've been wearing the same pair of pants for four months now and alternating between the same two shirts. I just thought two sessions a week would help bring me out of this funk!!!! There's a part of my brain that knows I'm not functional and is trying to fix it. The other part wants to stay in bed all day and do nothing.

So, Yaku, how can I grow from this? DO I need to call him and tell him how pissed off I am????

I just told him this story on Monday about when I went away to college. I was scheduled to come home for a visit at Thanksgiving. Most of the other kids lived closeby and went home often on weekends to visit friends. I was feeling really homesick. I called my Dad in October, crying, please can I come home for a visit???? He told me I was being manipulative and up to my old tricks. Are you seeing the parallels? Do I even need to ask?

I hate therapy. I love therapy. I hate therapy. I love therapy.
yakusokuyakusokuMember
I think a call might be helpful or just a session with the whole focus being this feeling of being manipulated. What I have done with T every time something like this pops up (perhaps not immediately, but eventually) is go straight to him with it. I say it in a non-threatening way, a way that doesn't assume I KNOW for sure what his intentions are. But, I do say how his actions make me feel. For example, I have told T that when he said, "God bless" as a goodbye at the end of our sessions, it was sounding like, "I'm done, go away now!" I texted him yesterday that I felt completely abandoned about the way he ended the session. I told him that I was paranoid he was calling me, "Kiddo" on purpose to trigger these powerful parental transference feelings. I admitted via email that I was sometimes paranoid that he was going behind my back to my H, my pastor and others, because the same week I admitted to them being support people for me, most of them stopped responding to me for a week straight all at the same time. T has always been steady, corrected misperceptions, apologized for his actions where he maybe should have been more in tune. He has admitted to purposeful engineering (trying to avoid triggering by changing the way he does things). I feel MORE trusting of him, but none of that could have happened if I wasn't honest that I was struggling to trust him in the first place. When I discussed this dilemma with T, how I wanted to tell him things, but I was afraid that the way he reacted would mean I couldn't trust him anymore. He simply said that he thought he was trustworthy, but if he wasn't, it was very important that I find that out for my security/safety. So, no matter what the answer is, it's important to know. And, this can be the precipice of real growth in your therapy.
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Liese I do not think this was a trick or a test or some Machiavellian manipulation on your T's part. I think he was simply trying to fit you in and be flexible.

I certainly don't think you need to stress over his lunch hour or worry when he is going to eat. Like Smiley said, he's a grown man and he should decide when and if he eats. It's not your problem. If my T offers me an appointment I feel sure it's because he WANTS to offer it to me not because he testing me to see if I accept it and if that is telling him some secret information that he will use in our therapy. That is WAY too underhanded to contemplate.

And if he IS doing these kinds of things... being manipulative and tricky... then you need to run like hell away from him. Truly. That is really BAD news.

What I am concerned about as well is his focus on if you are having romantic feelings for him. So what if you are? Does that get you thrown out of therapy? He's supposed to accept your feelings and be open to discussing them. And if you say you are not having romantic feelings then he needs to accept that too. I know with my oldT I would run romantic scenarios in my head or even sexual ones and they just didn't fit... didn't feel right to me. What did feel okay and right was the parental feelings. I wanted to just sit with him, be held, hugged, read to, believed in, cheered on, and supported and guided by him. I wanted him to be proud of me. Like a good parent would be. This comes from the attachment injury.

Liese, your T just does NOT understand attachment injury and how it manifests itself in the therapeutic relationship. He has no clue what your feelings are about, where they come from, why you have them in the first place and what to do with them. His incompetence in this area is causing you further hurt and feeding your lack of self-esteem and making you feel depressed and unwanted.

I have no idea what to tell you to do at this point because you seem to be really attached to him and I know how hard it is to break the attachment. Believe me I know the pain involved in that. I think you will have to decide on your own what is more important... that you get well by finding a T who can provide you what you need to heal, or to stay with him in this limbo to maintain the attachment to him.

You are really the only one who can make the decision. We will be here to support you whatever you decide. I hope you are not offended by what I say but it is hard to see you work yourself into a state like this where you become paralyzed due to his insensitivity to your attachment to him. Maybe the only thing you can do is to just lay it all out there for him and ask him a lot of really blunt and difficult attachment type questions. I would ask him to relate to you his plan and his ideas for helping you with your attachment injury. If he evades the questions or gets you off topic... that is a big red flag. You need some answers and I don't think you have much to lose in asking the hard questions.

I hope you will be okay until you see him again.

Hugs
TN
L lieseMember
Thanks TN,

Not offended at all. I think I will ask him all about attachment. It's front and center on the list for Monday. I still really don't think he was being flexible because I've never seen that kind of flexibility in his schedule before. But I know he would never admit any other motivation than being flexible. All I asked for was an appointment earlier than 4:30. If his regular lunch is at 12:45 and he has a 1:30 and a 2:15 open, and I ask for an appointment earlier than 4:30, why would he feel the need to be "flexible" and change his lunch around when he has these open spots? It just doesn't make sense to me. I can ask him about it but I know he would never tell me his true motivation and would insist that his motivation was to be flexible. So, I don't even know if I should go down that path.

What if you are the kind of person who just takes what people give you? And that most of the time you are hanging on a flagpole being thrown around by the wind. And you could ask for help. You could ask to come down off the flagpole. Or there is a ladder nearby and someone could move it for you. But you don't know that you can ask for help. No one has ever told you that before. So, you just keep flapping in the wind, taking the crumbs that people offer you. Most people however just walk by you and ignore you and no one bothers to tell you, well, geez, if you had just asked, I could have helped you down off the flagpole.

How does attachment fit into that????


Maybe I'm making too much of the romantic feelings thing. He said it was no big deal. We would just have to talk about it. I told him I don't want to feel ashamed about my feelings. He told me I shouldn't feel ashamed. Heck if my marriage was great, would I be in therapy???? If my marriage was great and I was in therapy, would I develop feelings for my T???? I know it's all normal. It's just me. I feel sooo embarassed talking about it all.

Oh gosh, what if I have never been in love before? Has everyone out there been in love? In real love? What if I don't even know what it feels like???? Do you all know what it feels like????
L lieseMember
Thanks DF for the (((liese)))). Yes, learned helplessness. That's it. That's what I have. I knew that back in my 20's. T told me that I "suffer" from it too. There was the time that I walked on the hot pavement for a half a mile and burned the bottom of my feet. I wound up with huge blisters on the soles of my feet. When I got to the top of the hill, I looked across the street to the other side and it was entirely in the shade. DF, I never even looked to get out of the hot sun.

So happy for you that you have experienced love.
blackbirdblackbirdMember
Hey Liese...I'm going to write to you stricly from my own experience here, not because I am trying to talk about me, me, me, but because it might be easier to hear if you know you aren't alone. It might not be easy to read what I have to say, but it is meant, like UV's, TN's and all the others here, from a caring place. I used to have a lot of the same thoughts about my T, that he was using tricky and brilliant psychologically manipulative techniques to figure stuff out about me, without asking me or having to divulge his "secrets." You know what I figured out? I asked him: "are you doing this?" Or I would say "Sometimes I get the feeling that you are doing this..." (Ok, during my very few brave, open, and progressive times in therapy- usually when I was having enough regular sessions (that he made me *ask for* and schedule myself)
You know what I figured out? That I wanted *him* to ask me. It was so humiliatingly hard to say *I want this time with you* It felt so, so wrong. Scary. And I'm sure I had other motivations under there that I wouldn't be too proud to discover, but I am simply not ready to honestly face those yet.
I still struggle with this, I just think that neither of us have had enough times to practice doing it. Asking for what we need/want when it involves admitting to an authority figure that you need them or worse, just want to be with them.. But it needs to be learned, plain and simple, because in the real world, nobody is going to hand me a sandwich, just because they *knew* I wanted one, and then have any respect for me. I think most T's have a tendency to meet our needs only when we ask for them to be met, clearly and directly and decisively. that's the hard lesson.

I will share with you also, my reason for wanting to think my T manipulative and tricky on things like you describe with the scheduling. It was because if he *was* that way, then it meant that he was spending a great deal of time thinking about me and planning my treatment, so it gave me a jolt of endorphins or whatever, to feel cared about *that much* by him. Like a mum, who plans all kind of tricky ways to get a child to eat her food, I wanted my T to plan for me, think about me, and overall, have power over me. I wanted very badly to hang onto that fantasy! It was so very hard to let it go. But my T always said very clearly *no* every time.

Well, I think I've mostly let it go now, although it still plagues me a bit at times, usually when I'm under, as now, from lack of sufficient contact. What I am left with nowadays- still the need for contact with T to stabilize me. The relationship matters to me. And- whether it be now, or sometime later- I will have to do another "letting go" but, hopefully for you, and for me- it will be when the time is right and we make the decision simply because we have grown so much that we decided that the pain of staying was worse than the pain of leaving. that's the brutal reality of therapy. It's a place to grow. To get some care, yes, but primarily it is a place to grow. At least- this is my thinking for tonight! tomorrow I amy be singing an entirely different song. Frowner and when I am, I hope you will all forgive me for sounding so damn self-assured tonight.

Hugs Liese... I always like to see you dropping your nice little hugs around the forum, so I thought I'd give one back!((((Liese))))

Peace,

BB
L lieseMember
BB and UV,

Thank you both for your thoughtful advice and encouragement. I always feel so vulnerable putting all this out there. But you guys are always so supportive and gentle.

UV, I wish I understood more of what you wrote. I'm going to have to go back and think about that object relations stuff. That borderline psychosis stuff sounds a little scary. Is that caused by the emotions being overwhelming? I never did get in today but will go on Monday if I don't freak out in the meantime.

BB, you are right about everything you said. If I equate all this manipulation with love, then if I give it up, what's left in that space? What a bad habit. I can see everything you guys are saying but I still believe it was really odd that he offered me a 12:45 when he just doesn't have a 12:45 in his schedule. BUT I AM LISTENING TO YOU ALL.
L lieseMember
UV,

Just go with me here for a minute. I came from a really invalidating FOO. And I have trouble validating my own perceptions. So, let's just go with the facts:

1. I asked for a permanent appointment on Thursdays.
2. He offers me every other Thursday at 430.
3. He knows from previous experience when he was seeing my son that 4:30 doesn't work for me. I had to give up a 4:30 time slot. The kids are coming home from school and I have to pick up the baby at 5:00 from the babysitter.
4. He probably has a weekly 2:15 open.
5. He didn't offer me the weekly 2:15.

6. I'm not going to invalidate what I hear going on with his secretary. She definitely feels bad about something. (You may have read about what happened at Christmas).

So where is the borderline psychosis? Why would he offer me every other week at 4:30 when he has a weekly at 2:15 open? He and I had a discussion about the 2:15 being open. So it's not like he doesn't think I know about the 2:15 being open.

When he offered it to me, should I have just said, what about the 2:15? Why can't I have that? Why wouldn't he jsut offer it to me if he wasn't testing me???? Let's see if Liese takes the least inconvenient time for her? And then runs around like a lunatic trying to make it all work? And, for how long will Liese do this to herself??? Because we've seen Liese do some pretty crazy things before that were really inconvenient for her because she was afraid she wouldn't get an appointment or get what she needed, trying to fit herself into other people's lives.
L lieseMember
DF,

I'm not sure if I test other people. And it's hard for me to see how I'm testing T. So, sorry if I'm being stubborn. I'm truly trying to understand it.

Let's see what happens Monday when I talk to him. If I come back to you and say that I now have the 2:15 slot, would your opinion change?

I do feel a little frustrated because my sense is that you are telling me what you would do. But it seems to me that you are discounting my 3 plus years of experience with my T. Such as the fact that he has never had an appointment at 12:45 on Mondays ever ever ever. I've never seen that kind of flexibility. To be honest, when I have had difficulty with my schedule, he always tries to be flexible but not with the 12:45.

But going back to the 12:45. What would be the need for flexibility there when he could have easily given me the 1:30 or 2:15 or the 3:45???? If he really had no hidden agenda and these appointments were available like the secretary said, why the need for the flexibility???? Just answer me that question.

I know, I know. The person I need to talk to is him. And, that conversation will shed light on what happened. All the bad habits I have to break.
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
quote:
Let's see if Liese takes the least inconvenient time for her? And then runs around like a lunatic trying to make it all work? And, for how long will Liese do this to herself??? Because we've seen Liese do some pretty crazy things before that were really inconvenient for her because she was afraid she wouldn't get an appointment or get what she needed, trying to fit herself into other people's lives.


Liese I agree with everything DF points out. She makes a lot of sense.

In regard to what I quoted from you above... please tell me what you think the point of all of that scheming and manipulation would be? What is he trying to prove, or discover and why? Would this be some test of how much romantic interest or love you have for him (in his mind)? Or is he testing you for some reason that I cannot imagine?

Don't you feel that if this is what he is doing that it is unethical? And just bad therapy? If you truly believe this about him then why would you want to keep him as your T?

Just some questions for you to ponder. I just think you are seeing things that are not there and if they are then you need to run or at least confront him about what you think he is doing to you. If he is as busy as you say he is then he really does not even have the time to set these scenarios up.

Just my opinion,
TN
L lieseMember
DF,

My consult T told me he was using the relationship and then said, the point being, if you can do it in therapy, you can do it in real life. He then gave me a couple of pointers in areas where I felt stuck and then said, why don't you go back and say this and see what happens.

TN, But what if I'm describing to you the exact pattern I do to myself in real life? Here's something that happened recently that is an example of what I did to myself. For 5 months, I have been really worried about money. My H and I are self-employed. He got a lot of money last summer and so we took a nice trip to Puerto Rico but didn't pay our taxes. And the towards the fall, I knew the money was going to start running out and Christmas was coming and we still hadn't paid our taxes. So I went into a tailspin. I couldn't ask my H how much money was coming in because I had so much anxiety about it all. I couldn't bring myself to check the balance on the computer because I was afraid to face it. So, I just did a downward spiral. It turns out we have not run out of money yet. We still haven't paid our taxes for last year: not good. But we're still paying our bills and going along. He has a trial in April that hopefully will yield something. He just lost a trial last week. Money is a constant issue for us. My H ignores the tax issues. Doesn't want to deal with the accountant. We've had the IRS levy our bank accounts. But I do tend to remove myself from the situation out of fear and anxiety and then just spin silently on my own.

Maybe you are all right and I'm thinking I am the center of his world. And, I am not. And he's going to do things that affect me because they affect me but he's not doing it because of me. I can get all that. I just don't believe it. This is therapy afterall.
yakusokuyakusokuMember
quote:
I know most of the time, when he puts you on the floatlist he fits you in at this time. He may have this time saved for emergencies, or perhaps someone takes this time every other week or once a month so it doesn't make sense as a permanent time to schedule.



I agree here. Every appointment with my T for the last few months has been at 9:00 pm on Mondays or Tuesdays...because I cannot do the 3:00 to 5:00 pm slots he has offered. However, T does not consider these "regular" appointment times. He leaves them open for emergencies and people he cannot fit in any other slot. They are his floating appointments. He cannot give me a regular appointment time at the time of day I need it (6:00 to 8:00 pm, so I can have a babysitter). So he accommodates me in that way by giving me the "float" session time that he would rather leave open to take notes or whatever Ts do to wrap up their days. My T also has several clients that are every other week or monthly. He is always tweaking his schedule on Friday-Sunday, even though he is only out here on Monday-Tuesday. It might not be the most professional thing, but it's what he does to fit in ALL clients who want to see him.

Also, having been an Admin in the past, I agree with DF's assessment of the secretary's motivation for apologizing. I frequently apologized to customers if I felt that our interactions might have been stressing them out or the way my department ran was not as efficient as I would have liked. For example, always having to make last minute arrangements with a customer (even if it was my boss' fault and not my own) is something I would apologize for. It's not that I felt responsible, but I wanted the customer to know I was aware it might be frustrating to them and I cared about their frustration. It doesn't mean she is involved in a conspiracy.
J janedoeMember
Liese ~ you said you grew up in an invalidating FOO. I hope you know I hear you, totally. You could be right, this could be all true about him and he could be testing you by doing this. And if he was testing you, to see if you would run around like crazy trying to make it work, well that would be awful. Simply awful.

He could be testing you and if so, he is an awful T... and what would that mean? That you shouldn't see a T like this. And you shouldn't have feelings for him, shouldn't care, and that you should run.

quote:
What if I act helpless to avoid feeling uncomfortable feelings? Like how hard it is to ask for this twice weekly spot because maybe I'm trying to avoid my feelings for T????


What if maybe thinking he is testing you about scheduling is a way for you to avoid uncomfortable thoughts and feelings for him? (romatic or not) When I want to push my T away, because I feel like she is too close and/or that I care "too much" about her, I notice I get mad at her, for small things. It's taken some time, ok a lot of time, for me to notice this about me. It's just how it is for me. I have no idea if that is what is going on for you.

I don't think you are "crazy" - it just seems like you are scared, protective... It's not bad to be protective, and fear is a normal emotion, especially when we are vulnerable or something hits in the same place or close to where we have been hurt in the past or are hurting now.

What if you do have feelings for your T? It's normal, it happens a lot, and ok. It's also scary to experience.

What if being protective and scared about your T testing you, is really a way you are trying to protect yourself from feeling close vulnerable feelings about your T and vulnerable feeling of wanting, needing, to see him more often for legit reasons - of wanting to get better - and feeling hurt that he didn't meet what you needed in a better way... ?

I dunno... just some thoughts...

glad you are posting about this and thinking it through and getting feedback. You have so much courage, and such a kind and warm heart, and you deserve comfort and support from your T. I hope you do talk to him about this and I hope you find some peace in the meantime.

hugs,
~jane
blackbirdblackbirdMember
((((Liese,)))) you are getting excellent feedback here from everyone. If you can recognize a pattern that does not help you in the way that you are thinking here-in this thread- and learn how to do the same type of thing with your T, or a T- that would be great!(and I understand fully that you are truly, honestly trying to "get it" -and that in order to do so, you absolutely need to have the freedom in this discussion to lay all your thoughts out there- disagreeing so honestly and authentically with what is being said, and being yes, very vulnerable to us with that- *is* the way that you will learn. I think you understand this, and that's what you are honestly trying to attempt- correct me if I am wrong. I really, really really want to honor that in you- I think it is excellent.) In answer to the question that you posted as the thread title- *am I overthinking this* I think you are slowly learning the answer, and it is taking time and it *will* take time to do this. You are learning a new pattern, and it seems clear to me that that is exactly what you are trying to do with this thread. As I say- I honor that authentic spirit, and am glad to be allowed to be a part of it.

In the spirit of this learning you are doing- I want to throw a thought at you. There is a *slight* possibility that your T could be purposely allowing you to remain in a position where you are forced to ask, clearly and directly, and simply- for what you need from him. In becoming aware of what *your needs* are regarding an appointment time with him- and learning to express that need to him (more vulnerability and admission of need, very difficult with your past) and then, not only that- but also accept all the ramifications of his answer- and maybe having to do this same process with him over and over and over again until you learn to ask, simply, for what you need- and accept the answer that you get- it is my humble belief that you are doing good therapy and learning a very valuable skill with this type of thing. Even if T isn't allowing this to happen *on purpose* it is *still* good therapy and a very valuable lesson to learn. Again- Liese- just my (current) humble opinion.

You *are* doing the work, Liese, keep at it-it is no easy.

BB
L lieseMember
Yaku, DF, Janedoe and BB,

Thank you all for your replies. They are all so helpful. DF, please don't think I'm mad at you. Just trying to work it all through. This is why I don't get anything done. I get stuck in all this muck all the time. Or else, I just avoid people so I don't get stuck in this much all the time. Either way, it's not a very satisfying life.

My latest thought was this: his first offer was 4:30 every other thursday. really not good for me. his second offer, well, just for this week, was his "usual" lunchtime. Probably not something, even if he was trying to be flexible, he does often or may even want to do often. And, so, in the first scenario, my needs get totally ignored. In the second scenario, his needs get totally ignored. Well, I'm just saying that about his needs. I am supposed to assume that he is taking care of his needs. But in relationships, you have to balance needs. It's not all or nothing in one direction or the other.

He's not the kind of T who is going to tell me what my needs are. He's never done that. He always says that I have to figure that out by myself, maybe with his help here and there. Or as the consult said, with an "intervention."

At the end of the day, I do think think it would be helpful for me to see him twice a week until I can get up and running again on my feet. But I am thinking what it all boils down to for me is that I just want to feel important to him. Not the most important thing. But just important. Like I matter to him in his world of one million people. Like I'm not some crumb. Is it important that I feel that way? Or is that some unmet childhood need he can't meet and I just have to accept that? He is my therapist afterall.
yakusokuyakusokuMember
I think we should be important to our T's. Maybe not more so than other clients or their families or other obligations, but enough that they are considerate in their interactions with us. I also think him being willing to tweak his schedule to see you could be a way of saying, "Hey, you say you need this and it's important to me to help you, so I'm willing to switch things around." There doesn't have to be any ulterior motive behind it other than deciding to prioritize you. How does that feel? It makes me uncomfortable when my T does that! I'm about to do a phone call and I feel *horrible* about him giving up extra mid-week time in addition to reading my emails and texts and going over on our sessions. However, logically, I can tell myself that it is his choice and his responsibility to decide what is too much and tell me. I can't imagine that he struggles with the same issues as me and is too scared of conflict with me to be honest. I have to imagine that T is healthy, that he can manage his own boundaries without my help, that he will teach me how to manage mine, but not do it for me (otherwise, how will I learn). It sounds like you may be trying to manage T's boundaries a bit, and through that lens, you expect that your T does the same to you. It's not necessarily direct manipulation...but a way of relating to people that you have learned and must unlearn. Basically, your role is to tell T, "I feel like I need ________." And his role is to say, "Sure, I can do that." or "I'm sorry. I'm not able to provide that for you, but I can offer you ________." And you negotiate from there a compromise that works best for both of you. You are perceiving his boundaries as unpredictable. It may take a lot of effort to realize, they are in fact (which I don't know, because I don't know your T) steady and only dependent on what he is able to offer you based on the resources available to him at a given moment. And if you can accept that his boundaries are steady and no amount of you asking for what you need or accepting what he offers will turn him into roadkill, then maybe you can accept your role in this, which is just to honestly communicate your needs and be willing to accept his answer or negotiate a compromise both of you are content with if you cannot accept it. Am I making any sense here?
blackbirdblackbirdMember
It's an unmet childhood need, Liese. your T (imho) has a responsibility to let you explore that need. If he fills that need for you too much, then you will lose the chance to explore it, because the need will disappear. However, at times if the pain gets too bad, he may have to fill it a little- and that is healing too, in different way. It's a balancing act. His caring is of a good parent to a very little child, a good parent teaches the child how to walk, and doesn't use the child to meet their own needs, "keeping the child down," so to speak. although that caring exists in the therapy relationship in a very subtle, complex, and implicit way. If you *go after* that caring, rather than explore it with him you will stay stuck. That caring that you want *from him* is the need you are there to explore *with him-* and you are able to do that with him because he cares, as a T cares. If he cared as parent cares, (imperfect parent) you wouldn't be able to do the work. If he cared as a lover cares, and begged you to come in or manipulated the appointment times to find out things about you, etc, you wouldn't be able to do the work. Your "needs" would be met, but *you* would be left for dead. It's very complex. Very difficult to explain. You are there to learn from him, how to stand on your own two feet- but that takes time. and it takes you doing what you are doing. And it takes letting go of the fear of needing. Badly needing the appointment time you want, and possibly having to compromise with him because he is a T and not your parent. *This* is the work. you need stable caring attachment with him to be able to complete this work- or it will fail. But you must try not to make the attachment in itself your goal, but *growth* you goal. There, you have a very big challenge, because the enormity of the need (of your inner child) frequently overtakes and stops up the progress. Then you go on, yet again, a little stronger the next time. You will accomplish growth by asking simply for what you need- from him *as a T.* If you can manage, somehow, to win this battle with yourself, to ask instead of just want and not get- and to communicate to him that that is what you are doing- you will have done something very worthwhile.

**edited this post lots, you may need to read again**
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Liese you may be bumping up against the huge wall of grief for what you didn't get as a child and what you think you would like from your T... who is unable to make all the bad stuff go away and make it all okay. You can't go back you can only work within the relationship that you have. But you will have to mourn and that is the hard, painful part that people prefer to avoid. It's really hard work as Beebs says above and only you can decide if you want to wade into the murk and pain. Not everyone wants to.

Sorry you are in such pain.

Hugs
TN
blackbirdblackbirdMember
*If* I am correct (and I could be wrong..as your situation is unique to you-) than it is a very painful battle between your alienated self and your inner child. I don't know the psychological terms I am afraid, but they probably match my understanding of these concepts. As I understand it, from my experience with similar problem- every time you experience a need, in this case the need for regular contact with T, your alienated self will try to deprive your inner child of her needs, any way it can, and it is very tricky. It will use any means at it's disposal to do this- because that is what "feels normal." That is your "default position." It is painful to ask, because we have been taught- no, *conditioned*- that it is not only wrong, but dangerous to have and particularly, to *express* our needs, simply, and without guile. However, it feels neither dangerous, or wrong, to take care of another's needs- particularly someone who is supposed to provide for ours, as best they are able, when we ask. That is why it is so important to have a T who is neither dangerous, or who will make you feel wrong for expressing them. That would make the lesson much too difficult to learn. The need you have for T, is the need for contact, a regular appointment that both of you can work with, and his acceptance of your attachment and needs to talk about *whatever* you need to talk about with regards to the relationship that the two of you have, or relationships that you have with others. All your confusion, anxiety, heartbreak, especially as reagrds his boundaries- and the separation between you that exists to keep you safe- should be safe to express in that room. If you are furious with T for not taking care of your appointment needs for you, instead of letting you agonize, wonder, and ultimately- simply ask, then it is, from my perspective at least, almost certainly a very old, and very intense pain. and you should be able to express that anger safely, too, in the context of an implicit awareness between the two of you that it is old pain, and *not about T* even though it really, really really feels like it *is* about T. (ok, a bit of it might be about T, but not most of it, not the unbearable part) What complicates the process, very badly- is when it is not safe there, with T. Only you can figure that out- but, with help from friends! Input- and feedback, that will help you to think and sort it better. Relax- it takes time. You have time.

***edited, once again, pretty drastically, please re-read** Smiler
ladygreyladygreyMember
quote:
Yaku. Why can't I just ask for what I need? Is it really that hard? Yes, it is hard. Feel exposed, vulnerable, naked.

It sounds to me that you are getting to the core of your issues. That's what the therapeutic relationship ultimately does. For those of us who have been abused in our childhood, there is nothing more frightening than allowing ourselves to be vulnerable. It's like standing at the edge of cliff and being forced to jump off and trusting that there is going to be someone to catch us at the bottom. our experiences have taught us that nobody will be there to catch us, but we want to believe that there will be someone. We NEED to believe that. We WANT to believe that. Yet we know better. And we resent our Ts for putting us in a position where we are being asked to forget what we've been taught, and instead take a leap of faith with them. It gives them so much power to completely fuck us over. And that, in turn, makes them something to fear with an intensity unmatched by any life experience.
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