liese, this quote from ag? " I remember something AG said that her T told her until she could get angry at him, she wouldn't start to heal." that is quite interesting.

i do think accessing anger is scary for us all. i see i have done it, but not in a controlled way. very reactive.

and childlike...lashing out from hurt.

hmmm.

i find it interesting that a t would DO something to provoke anger. i can see that in a really well established context, and they would sure have to handle it adeptly. but, no, i have not had that happen.

i HAVE gotten mad at t's. t1, just sat there. wooden. really aggravated me, just like my parents...wooden. t2, i canned for sleeping on my time...anger in a letter. t3 canned ME for the first time i ever got angry at her, in an email. she had told me, as anger is something i am afraid of, that SHE had a hard time, too, growing up and learning how to deal with anger...she canned me for it, so apparently she has not learned much. dbt gal, i have constant anger at her. i tell her i don't feel empathy and that i need someone more intuitive, then i apologize. quite productive!! (not!!)

t5, dr. analyst...i have not gotten angry at him, really. one REMARKABLE THING HE SAID EARLY ON, that i think is so fine, is that, "he WILL probably disappoint me at times, and that we could talk about it."

i have kind of verbally kicked a bit of sand in his face, telling him he just doesn't see how sick i am, to which he smiles at me, tells me there is nothing i have told him, or displayed that would make him think i am psychotic...he seems to be of the carl rogers approach, which i tell him i am really leary of, as i don't want him to 'shine me on'. i get a bit aggravated at him with that, but, he just treats me with kindness and respect, and it is hard not to recipricate.

he may have to induce it. but i worry about making everyone angry. yet, i do it.

humanity is something we all, t and c alike, have to extend that grace toward others. and to ourself. i struggle with the latter, particularly.

great topic, and one emotion i think hardest for most of us...jill

I haven't really had any anger in sessions with Ts. My anger is usually out of session resentment that they aren't my lover, mother, friend, etc.

T1 and I did have a misunderstanding recently but it was quickly resolved.

T2 hasn't upset me at all in therapy. I want to be mad at her, I want to not like her, but in session, she is so warm.

I am better at being angry with T than hurt and worse still at feeling needy. Anger makes me feel in charge, but the other stuff is horrible.

Hey Liese,
I agree with everything you said about accepting people’s (our T’s) imperfections, and taking care of our own needs- I do have a lot of ambivalence about that whole topic right now though. Our fake-termination 3 weeks ago was probably the most painful thing that’s ever happened to me... It doesn’t seem like it “should” be when I think about other things that “should” be worse- but it was. But it’s also been a huge huge huge huge learning and growth opportunity and I am positive that I would not be in the same place as I am now without that experience. And to relate this all back to what you were saying- one thing I learned is that my T is not perfect. He has his own triggers and vulnerabilities, and can behave subconsciously in ways that in turn, trigger and harm me. I’m starting to come to a place where I’m seeing the positive that has come out of the way my T behaved, and I’m almost grateful for it…. But then again, I would NEVER wish this experience upon someone else, and I would never want to relive what happened ever again. So I guess I’m happy for the whole experience because I am learning so much about handling other’s imperfections, but at the same time the experience was horrible and traumatizing…. Oh, ambivalence!

I’ve never had problems expressing anger in therapy, whether it be at T or about life or whatever. I’ve yelled a lot, the worst thing I’ve physically done was probably throw the pillow I was holding at him, which I’ve done several times, and he would just catch the pillow and toss it back to me. Since our fake-termination 3 weeks ago though, I have not gone anywhere near my anger with T. Last session my T proposed the idea (he just put it out there and then left it up to me) that I need to re-enter all the feelings of anger and abandonment and rejection that I felt from him in our fake-termination session, because if we don’t process all of that we will have a very limited pool of topics that we can discuss. I agree with him, but the last time I was angry, and yelled at him for abandoning me he completely shut down. It was like I was yelling at a wall (or a robot- hence his new nickname – Robo-T). I told him that I can’t possibly believe that he has done that much work in the past 3 weeks that he is now able to stay present and responsive when he has someone yelling at him that he’s abandoning them. He understood all of that and said he knew going back to those feelings would be a huge risk on my part. Huge risk is an understatement…. But anyway, we’ll just have to see how it all plays out I guess!
Good questions by the way!

Mac

I got mad at T right before Christmas but then found the emotion to be too overwhelming as I didn't want to "lose his love" so then I turned the anger on myself and brutalized myself for 5 days before I saw him again.

I actually also got mad at T in october and then had a unique psychological experience. I tend to merge other peoples needs with my own and subvert my own needs. He and I were having our first argument. When I left, I was really upset. He was telling me he's a caring person because that's who he is. I saw his words in bold letters on bold colors, like on a fridge magnet. His words said, I care because that's who I am. Then suddenly a transparent sticker peeled off of his words and it had my words on it. My words were in small, light typeface and they said, sorry, but I'm just not feeling it.

It made me wonder if then anger is actually then pivotal in terms of personality development and building a strong sense of self. Beause we are not all going to have identical needs. And if anger signlas a basic need not being met, you can begin to see yourself as a separate person.

When I saw him this past Monday and told him how upset I was about everything, I said, so what does this mean, we have to end the relationship now? And he said no, we don't have to end the relationship. I think usually when I get mad at people, I end the relationship because I can't see a way past it.

Hey Mac,

We cross-posted. It sounds like what you went through 3 weeks ago was similar and opened up similar wounds for you as what happened to me in October. You seem to be handling it a lot better than I did, though, I have to say. I still haven't been able to go back to talk about it and fear that yes, we will run out of things to talk about. Like you, it was probably one of the most painful experiences of my life. I'm still not sure what I learned from it since we haven't been able to talk about it. Just figured that my needs for security are a lot stronger than I ever knew or realized.

Just wondering why you are calling it a "fake termination". Don't feel pressured to share if it is going to trigger you.

quote:

Just wondering why you are calling it a "fake termination".

That’s what my T calls it, so I started calling it that too…. I guess just because he was going to terminate but we ended up not? Not that what happened in the session wasn’t really, or he wasn’t really going to terminate, but just that we are still working together so we obviously didn’t actually end up terminating…

I’m glad you liked my pillow throwing, Monte! lol!

((((MONTE))))) so sorry about your t. was before I joined the forum so I am sorry that I don't know what happened.

MAC, I like that he calls it the fake termination. It sounds like you two have a really nice relationship.

Good for you Monte.

Hi Liese,

It's absolutely true that no T is perfect, and that whoever we work with sooner or later we are going to come face to face with their imperfections. When that happens, I also very much agree with this:

quote:

Does it not provide a terrific opportunity for her client's to learn about themselves? And what is important to them? And how to take care of themselves and look after their own needs? Isn't life like that? And the better able we are at accepting our own and other people's imperfections, and take care of our own needs, the better we will be able to cope?

Having said that, I also really believe that it is important for clients - no matter who we are or what circumstances we come from - to have or develop some boundaries about what is okay in our own treatment or not. Because we are taking time, paying money, putting big emotional resources in and taking big emotional risks - in order to get better. And because unfortunately not every therapist is able to provide the right path to getting better for every client. Every therapist is capable of getting stuck in an unproductive rut in certain therapies, and sadly some therapists don't actually have the skills (or even, unfortunately, the will) to keep their clients safe.

I get where you are coming from in saying that we can learn from our T's failings, and I do think that happens - but only when the basics are in place. Because we are so vulnerable in our therapy, and being able to watch our own backs, keep our own lookouts, or know our own best treatment is really beyond a lot of us a lot of the time through this process. Knowing the basics of our own boundaries allows us to say okay, the fundamentals are in place, so beyond that, although it is difficult I will trust. Or - okay, the fundamentals are not in place, so I need to take the helm and really consider my options.

Think of doctors. Everyone is human and makes mistakes. So you might forgive a doctor mis-scheduling. But what if you saw a doctor using unsterilized needles? What if you saw a doctor with an uncovered infection soldiering on and treating patients - out of the goodness of her heart - and exposing her patients to the infection? You *could* take your own needle to your appointment. You could identify with your doc's good intentions and try to avoid catching her infection. But actually in these cases you'd be much safer to have boundaries, to know them, and to know you should run like hell.

It's hard enough to trust a T when you have good evidence they are trustworthy. When you have evidence they are not, trying to convince your own brain to let go of its (justified) fear and trust is a bit of a losing battle - and it's dangerous.

Liese, I hope you don't feel like I'm giving you flack with this. In fact I think your pondering of this is really interesting and constructive. I want to offer my point of view in the hope that it is also somehow helpful.

Take care,
Jones

My T would never provoke me intentionally. She doesn't work that way. We have plenty of triggers and opportunities for me to get angry all on my own without her intentionally trying to piss me off.

My T would be thrilled if I (or any of us) would get angry and really show it. I think she would probably do a happy dance right then and there! We get close and touch on it briefly and then end up recoiling and terrified. One of these days, I'm sure it will actually be followed through, but not yet.

Once I was mad at my T, but of course felt I couldn't show it. Later in the next session when we were talking about it (because I sent her an angry letter....what a wimp!), I told her that I had really really really wanted to throw a pillow at her. She laughed and said, "hey that's an idea. Maybe some day we can have a pillow fight."

My T encourages any and all feelings in her office. Nothing is off limits except hitting her, hurting myself and destroying things. Short of that I'm very confident that pretty much anything goes with her.

As far as the ruptures and mistakes that T has made, yes they have had their benefits but they have also been really hard. I don't think they were necessary in order to learn, but we did turn them into learning opportunities both for myself and for T.

DF, Jones and STRM,

All interesting points of view. DF I totally understand where you are coming from. I like the idea too of it being a sanctuary, a safe place. I really like that idea. And it should be a safe place. Funny thing is, my T and I haven't even talked about anger yet. I think I have been so cut off from my anger that honestly I couldn't even verbalize any if I tried. The anger part of me is soooo stored and stuffed away somewhere.

Jones, not feeling flack at all. glad to hear your point of view. And you're right, so many of us are vulnerable. They do have to have the basics. I like your take on things that we are the paying clients and that we have boundaries too. It's a much more empowering way of looking at things.

STRM, i think i have those triggers too. probably don't need my t to provoke anything either. Though he sure does give me a lot of reasons to think he's provoking me.

I've told T that I don't want to go on antidepressants anymore and he has been very supportive in helping me overcome depression without medication. Depression is anger turned inward, so somehow that anger has to come out. Since I am the one who never has slammed a door, I do have to learn to feel my anger, though like you STRM, it is very threatening to me.

Apparently, I haven't even gotten to the "process" part of therapy yet. I'm guessing it can be painful and evoke strong feelings? I wonder how it works? What have I been doing with him for 3 years?

T2 did say to me that when you do surgery, you want to use a sharp knife, not a blunt knife. What are they taking out? The pain, the anger?

Just another interesting experience with my current T who is on probation. I remember telling T at the session right before Christmas that I just wanted to be alone. My H was talking about taking the kids into the city for a day of fun and I told him that I just wanted to stay home so I could get some alone time. He seemed to be concerned that I felt this way and was kind of trying to talk me into going into the city with the rest of my family. Over the holidays, i remember feeling angry with him about the session before when I had shown him the CPTSD stuff and he said, you don't have this, you don't have any trauma. But there was a part of me so threatened by being angry at him that I brutalized myself for 5 days until I saw him again. I actually swung back and forth the whole 5 days between brutalizing myself and having fun with the kids. Back and forth, from high to low, low to high, with no in between.

The next time I saw him, we talked about how I brutalized myself for five days but also how then I would spontaneously have fun with the kids. And, so maybe that was some kind of improvement over just wanting to be alone? Just throwing it out there.

hi liese, a very interesting topic which really hits home for me too. i really struggle with anger too and i keep it hidden (festering away) and direct it at myself most of the time.

hmmm. not sure if what you talk about sounds like an improvement... maybe you were angry at him and took it out on yourself? and also could it be that you managed to look after yourself too by doing something fun, to balance it out in a way, the bad with some good...? i'm mostly guessing (and thinking about what i normally do) so i could be wrong.
did he really say, you don't have any trauma, or was he referring to something more specific? its pretty tough to feel un-validated (is that a word?) especially in front of our T's.
which is exaclty how i've been feeling lately too. (i always seem to turn it into something about me...)

my experience with anger in therapy has been that i feel like my T was trying to provoke me - or maybe they're just trying to draw the anger / feelings out. i normally get stuck and can't do anything, can't even talk anymore. i dream of the day i will be able to throw a pillow but i'm also really scared of it, and can't really imagine it either.

puppet