Well you already realize it's not about him, so honestly you are making his job really easy for him! I think you should definitely bring it up!

God, my T would probably get all excited if I actually got angry at her. I haven't even cried in her office yet after like 9 sessions

this is interesting. i can entirely relate.
id say just keep trying to say more about hatred you feel towards people who have not struggled socially.

Liese, I think what AG wrote is very true and very wise. Those of us with lower self-esteem and self-doubt will be hurt more easily and blame ourselves if we don't get the invitation or the inclusion in the group. We need to start seeing it as the other person's loss because they were too stupid to see our value and worth.

As for being angry at T. I say that is good and go back and tell him. I felt this way when T and I were talking about my education. I have always struggled with feeling less than for not finishing college and getting a 4 year degree. Now that I will be graduating in the Spring I want to go on to grad school but there is the financial issue, lack of family support and having the time and energy to do this while working full time and taking care of a family. When my T said "I understand how you feel" I wanted to throw my shoe at him and I did tell him..."how can you sit there and tell me you understand when you went to all the school you wanted to, you have THREE degrees and you are doing a job you chose and you love". He sort of back tracked and said.... I understand how awful it must feel because of how much I value my education and can't even imagine being denied it. So that opened the conversation to keep talking about it and my grief over losing the chance that he had.

So I think this is a good opportunity to explore the hurt you feel over this topic.

And btw, I do think your T cares for you because he shows it in what he does for you. He may feel discomfort in admitting it (still hanging onto that CBT training LOL) but he behaves in ways that really tell us how he feels. I know it's hard for you to see and believe, but I see it.

I'm sorry for your pain. I hope you can address this on Thursday. I'm rooting for you.

Hugs
TN

that is really interesting, the piece that AG wrote about being angry that you weren't taught your own worth.
it puts into context the rage one can feel when a person is diminishing or intrusive or neglectful. its an indication that the parent is behaving in such a way due to the child's worthlessness rather than the parents own limitations.

Hey Alpaca, Da Rock, AG and TN,

Thanks for all the different perspectives and your support. I really hit something HUGE here because I've been struggling (well, more than usual) all week.

I don't know if it's just a defense mechanism that is coming into play that NOW I will be questioning T's effectiveness because it seems as though his inability to understand what my world feels like contributed a huge amount to the enactment that went on last year. I am wondering if it is just a defense because he is working triple time trying to repair things with me. It's just a fact that I don't know what his emotional world feels like and he doesn't know what mine feels like.

BTW, AG and TN, I quoted both your T's this week in therapy, trying to give him a different perspective, just in case he was interested. AG, I told him the analogy that your T gave you re: trying to imagine you grew up in the Sudan and I'm holding a steak. Since my T doesn't know what it feels like to be emotionally starving. And TN, I told him what your T said, that most T's would be loathe to talk about their feelings in therapy but that your T doesn't have a problem with it and tells you how he feels about you. I think my T has to think about all this stuff. It's all just entering into his consciousness for the first time so I have to give him time to digest it all.

Thanks guys,

xoxo

Liese

(((Liese)))

I resigned myself to the fact ages ago that I am one of those people that most simply are not going to click with. I'm introverted, have esoteric interests, and am by choice oblivious when it comes to much of pop culture. I drift through life trying to be somewhat friendly to those I encounter, and a few people inevitably stick, whereas most don't. Sometimes people I'd *like* to be friends with just aren't interested in me.

All that to say, I think I can understand how your T's comment kicked up some anger in you, because it would likely have had the same effect on me. Like, "Oh, how nice it must be for you to have been born with a silver spoon in your mouth." I dunno. I'd also have a hard time believing that what he said was even true, but maybe that's part of what happens in therapy-- we bump up against the fact that our experiences and perspectives are not the only possibilities of existence? I also think that what AG said made a lot of sense, to the effect that a more secure person has a more impermeable skin and that life simply doesn't hurt as much. It's sad, though.

I love what Ag said.

I think too Liese is that by T saying what he said - he sounds a bit up himself... but beside that him saying that might make you feel that he doesn't have a shared understanding of another issue with you and doesn't have empathy. How can he possibly know what you go thru when he has absolutely no concept of it.

That probably struck a nerve for you. He showed arrogance I thought - well that is what it felt to a mentally injured person like me - to the world he might have come across as self-assured, competent and socially charming.

You know the drill - talk it over with him!!!! If it is something that you write about here with us, it usually means it is important and therefore needs to be discussed in session. Hate that.

quote:

You know the drill - talk it over with him!!!! If it is something that you write about here with us, it usually means it is important and therefore needs to be discussed in session. Hate that.

brilliant, SD- I never thought of it like that for some reason, but yes- if we write about it here, we should talk about it in session! Thank you for that. I'm gonna try it next time.

I think it's overall, probably a good thing that your T is getting to those anger feelings about this, Liese- that's what we are there for, to uncover all of this stuff that you had to put away so long ago. Keep at it. I know how it feels to have that kind of anger just kind of come out of nowhere. I had an experience like that this week too, some guy I know from church refused to give a friend of mine a ride when I was sick, and then sent me an apology email, excusing himself, and also notifying me that he would not be able to do it later in the week, either- I have no idea how I am supposed to respond to this fellow, but I'm very, very angry. Weird. I understand busyness, and the need to say no, but...he driving somebody else who lives right near her!

ok, sorry to make this about mys tuff, I didn't mean to do that. I guess I'm just trying to state that there must be something esle to these feelings, needs to be explored.

Hugs, love,

Beebs

((((HIC)))) I sound a lot like the way you describe yourself. And I have a hard time believing T also. It's kind of like what I told my kids when I was teaching them how to ski and they would brag to each other about not falling down. I would tell them, if you haven't fallen down, then you are playing it safe and haven't taken any risks.

(((SOMEDAYS)))) I felt the same way, that my T is a bit up on himself. I really like him. He's very likeable. But since I've been with him, every once in a while, I pick up on an undercurrent of how wonderful he thinks he is. Since I really do like him too, I can even see why he might feel the way about himself that he feels. But, I've been hurt so many times - I wanted to say by people like him - but I've also been hurt by people who DON"T really feel good about themselves and kick me around out of anger. So, maybe that's not as true as I think it is. Maybe it's really the opposite. HMMMMM.

My big fear is not that he doesn't have the ability to empathize. It's not like a T has personally experienced every problem that comes in front of them. I'm sure he's never had a miscarriage. But he would have to empathize with someone who has had one. My big fear is that he is the type of person (or maybe I'm just assuming here) that has caused my hurt in the past. Like, let's say I'm a battered woman and he's a man who batters. kwim? I'm the borderline and he's the narcissist, in this case. They say they make a good pair! It's usually the type I fall for.

(((BB))) Never worry about talking about your own expierences. I learn so much from everyone, especially when people share their own experiences. And you are right about that anger just coming out of nowhere. That's exactly what happened. One minute I'm trying to find out one thing and the next, I was flooded with this absolutely out of control anger. I'm sorry your friend won't drive your other friend to church for you. It does sound inconsiderate. I don't know about you, but I'm the type of person who is always running around trying to make other people happy, so it always bothers me when someone draws a boundary that seems unnecessary and insensitive. Sometimes it's hard to understand why someone is drawing a particular boundary and not take it personally, especially when it places a burden on us that could have been avoided.

Yes, BB, I agree that it's good this got uncovered because I think it is a huge problem for me that I've been carrying around a long time, perceptions formed in childhood that may or may not be accurate but either way have been interfering with my life.

I keep asking myself, what if I was blind? Would I be angry at all the seeing people and ruin my life because of what I don't have?

Big hugs to all,


xoxo

Liese

And one more thing, could it be also that there are people out there like T who just have and always have had a good sense of who they are and who they will get along with and don't even think about all the people they would never get along with? And that that's exactly where a good sense of self will come in handy? Could it be as simple as that?

Liese, sometimes I think my T doesn't totally understand me. And yet, what makes all the difference in the world is that I always feel that whether she does or not, she is making a 100% effort to TRY to understand. Do you feel the same is true about your T or do you think he sometimes isn't trying hard enough?

Alpaca, that's a really good question and a hard one to answer because there was a time when I don't think he tried hard enough. I was in a lot of unnecessary therapy pain for about 7 months and stopped functioning. It had to do with T and I being in an enactment. He was totally unaware of his part in it until the pain got so bad that I almost did some self-harm and I've never done SH. I also went on a consult and the consult said that he just didn't have the sensitivity he needed to work with me. I was honest with him about the consult (and the other 6 I went on) and the almost SH. Over a period of several months, he did some serious self-examination. He's been really honest about what happened, even up to the point of admitting that he didn't know how to work with transference.

He has corrected the problem now and is trying really really hard to gain my trust. I know he feels really bad about what happened. But I have to ask myself, why didn't he question himself sooner? The therapy relationship is co-created and he is the one with the expertise. I was spinning like a top.

In his defense, he is a human being who got stuck in his own head and in his own way of thinking and wasn't being as flexible as he needed to be to give me what I needed. All things he has owned up to.

xoxo

Liese

xoxo,

All good questions, xoxo. My problem (one of many ) has been, that at my borderline level of brain functioning, I pick up on things about other people's needs constantly, hoping to twist and turn myself into what it is I think they want from someone and try to meet their needs. One of many problems with this comes when I pick up on something that might have the potential of interfering with me not getting my needs met. Like, for instance, if T feels good about himself and makes decisions that are good for him, that might mean that he won't be thinking about my needs. And I make assumptions that he is always very aware of my needs and so therefore, if he doesn't meet my needs, it's because he a) hates me, b) is repulsed by me, c) doesn't want me to be happy, and/or d)is angry at me. I don't feel entitled to my feelings and my needs so I suppress them and then get angry when my needs don't get met. And I *think* that's what is behind all this stuff.

So, I'm tossing it all around in my head, trying to become more aware of what I pick up from other people and why it always or almost always feels as though there is a tension between what I need and having a relationship with this person. I'm trying to learn to *love* T for who he is, even if he is well-versed in self-love and admiration, and let go of the anger I feel, that is probably most likely directed at some important figure in my past who was a limited human being. And I'm trying to learn that his self-love isn't a reflection of who I am (or how he is going to treat me) but of who he is and should have nothing to do with me asserting my needs and if it does, well, then, it is time to leave. KWIM?

On Monday, he said once again, that I helped him become a better therapist. I told him that I was having trouble with that because I'm in therapy to learn how to get my needs met in the world and not change the world to meet my needs. (At which time, I saw a sneaky smile on his face.) And I told him that I was having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that I changed my therapist. He told me that the thing is, that we have to ask for our needs to get met first. And then if the person says no, then it's time to leave the relationship. Well, I guess only if it's a biggie. But, he wanted to change for him and for me and he wanted to meet my needs. And, so voila, problem solved. No controlling going on there.

xoxo

Liese

Oh, and the part about his experience matching or not matching mine. It's just that his type of person caused all my problems, or at least that is the way I see it in part. It's like the example I used up above, like if I was a battered woman, would I really want to go to a man who batters women for my therapist?

Xoxo, my GAF was in the 40's last year. You do not know how much I suffered. I cried often and all day. I couldn't leave my house. I had other therapists tell me that it doesn't have to be this hard. There WAS something that he was not getting, not processing. And, so he DOES in fact have a blind spot where my experience is concerned. Kind of like, asking someone who is tone-deaf to play the piano by ear. They can't do it. Which is fine. But it was really really hurting me.

Now that it is over, he and I have agreed that there were some benefits of me going through what I went through and he has vowed to help me so that I won't ever have to go through that type of thing again.

But you can get why I would question it wouldn't you? And if I didn't question that, I'm sure I would find something else to question. It's just my nature. The great thing about the forum is that you get to throw things out and work through them with the insight and benefit of other people.

xoxo

Liese

And I think surrending the need for control is not a good definition of trust. I think a good definition of trust is that I listen to my needs and feel entitled to them even if they differ from someone else's.

I think the things that nag at me are my needs and they need to be heeded and listened to. T's needs are not more important than my needs.

The problem is that my needs stay below the surface because I make very quick and automatic assumptions that they are not going to be met. I don't even bring them out to see the light of day. The control part would come into play if I behaviorally tried to change T without verbalizing it and if T responded on some emotional level without processing whether or not he wanted to meet my needs. Like, if he was a people pleaser too, he might just automatically meet my needs simply because his brain wasn't processing everything and he was only responding to my needs as opposed to taking into consideration the WHOLE picture: my needs, his needs, etc. etc.

Life is a constant interaction between what we want and the demands of society and our families. Getting our brains to process this stuff quickly and accurately takes a lot of work and determination.

xoxo

Liese

These are some very good posts. I have nothing to add, but thank you!!!!

Hey there number9, you're welcome!

I told T today that I was going to try to like him anyway and he said that he thought about it some more and that yes, he has had feelings for people that weren't reciprocated. He's not sure why he said that. He can be a bit of a loose cannon sometimes.

One day, just out of the blue, he told me that some clients want to meet him at the diner but he can't, it's not appropriate. And I wondered, why the heck is he telling me this? Does he think I want to have a *session* at the diner?

It turns out I was just offered a job only 1/10th of a mile from where T teaches his two psychology classes.
When I went on the first interview, I passed the school. It is just one absolutely huge building surrounded by a parking lot and a fence. It has a huge sign with the name of the school in large letters. Very hard to miss. I was actually shocked when I saw it on the way to my first interview. I asked T if that is where he teaches and he said yes. It's a very funny world. I never knew which branch of the school he taught at.

Today when I told him that I got the job, I decided to tease him and said, now we can meet at the diner.

He started to laugh immediately and I said pretty quickly, I'm just teasing you. I had to do it. Do you remember when you told me that some people want to meet you at a diner? And he said yes. I explained to T that I thought it was odd at the time and I wondered if he thought I wanted to meet him at the diner.

He just simply said (again), I don't know why I said that.

My office is in a little village and there is a possibility that he might go into town to get a cup of coffee or a bite to eat. He told me that if he sees me, he won't say hello if I'm with someone else in case the other person asks who he is - that is, unless I say hello first. I told him I'd be mad if he didn't say hello and if the other person asks who he is, I can make up a silly lie.

I know I'm rambling. I had a good session today. T and I talked a lot today about my feelings for him and everything is good. We're on the same page.

One more ramble. I told T today that he felt like a cardboard cutout to me. And that I'm not a big hand-holder but that the day he held my hand, I really felt that he was real. And I couldn't believe how warm his hand was. So then on the way out of my session, he patted my upper back with his hand, near my shoulder blade. I was so shocked that that I pulled away from him and now feel bad that I did that. It was just so unexpected.

xoxo

Liese

Liese,

This is SO GREAT. What a lovely session and what you talked about. Congrats about the job by the way!!!! It is briliant that you will be near him and the possibility that you could glimpse each other IRL. It does make a differnce and its helps the attachment.

T and I have had these chats too about if we saw each other in public and she said she wouldn't acknowledge me if I didn't say anything first. We have been through this as we had past associations outside the therapy room and we both trust each other that we know the boundaries and how to act. She said she would never introduce herself - leave that to me to make up what ever I need to say.

A nice post Liese - needed to read that today.

Liese I was happy to read this. It looks like you and T are making those little connections that make you feel he is more real and you are moving closer to each other in trust. You are allowing the attachment to feel more comfortable and it seems he is too.

So tell me... how did you feel when he patted your back/shoulder? Aside from the momentary surprise, did it feel good, nice, sweet, scary, bad, etc? I think next time you talk about it. Don't feel bad at being surprised, just tell him, T I was surprised when you patted me but it felt....and fill in the blank. It was good you told him about how it felt when he took your hand. I finally felt that oldT was real when he shook my hand after a year of no touch at all.

My current T always shook my hand and after a few months began patting me. He did it again today. Monday he shook my hand twice at the end. The touch feels good even if it's not a hug. I'm coming to terms with that and he did not say "never" to the hug... he said let's allow things to take their natural course. But, I do get the feeling that I am like and accepted by him and it feels good.

I never got to ask him about the touch conversation today. Had a bunch of family stuff to discuss and it was a lighter session but I will eventually get back to it.

I'm glad to hear you had a good session and also good news about the job! Good luck with that. I wish you well.

Hugs
TN

((((SD))))((((TN))))((((MONTE))))

Thanks guys so much for the replies and your thoughts. They are always helpful and always appreciated.

I don't know how what I'm going to say will fit in with what you both are saying but here is what I was thinking. I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth but the hand on my wing with him behind me didn't really mean anything to me. Aside from the fact that I don't really like people walking behind me so they can see my big butt I couldn't see him. (yeah, right, like I think I can hide my big butt!) Maybe if I walk sideways, T won't notice.

But what it comes down to for me is that I don't want to be surprised by when he might touch me next and/or where and how. I don't want to sit on the edge of my seat wondering when the next "encounter" with touch might occur. I want to know what he is comfortable with and if I can ask for it when I need it.

The reason I told him I wasn't much of a hand-holder is because I'm really not and I had already told him how much I appreciated it when he did hold my hand. I didn't want him to get the impression that I want him to hold my hand. It seems to me if there is any touch involved, that it should be touch I'm comfortable with and not just touch T is comfortable giving. kwim?

So, I had a motive when I told him what I said but I also really appreciated the gesture at the time. And I do appreciate the gesture that he made on Thursday. He's trying. He really is.

The funny thing is that we used to walk shoulder to shoulder back to the waiting room after my sessions were over. Then suddenly a couple of months ago he started to walk a foot away from me. I asked him if something happened, did I walk too close to him. I do know that I leaned into him at least once while we were walking. But he said no, nothing happened though never explained our new distance.

So, the shoulder to shoulder *felt* very comfortable and natural and normal to me. But the foot in between us did not. It did feel too clinical. But I got used to it. I just accepted it as a boundary he felt he needed to have. Last week, we were talking on the way into his office and he walked right next to me again, the first time in months. And I was so uncomfortable with it because now I am so hypersensitive to the touch thing. It's all gotten too wierd for me and "clinical", Monte. So you were onto something there.

I kind of thought I might even ignore the conversation on Monday and if I get up the nerve to talk about it ever, I might just ask him what he is comfortable with and can I ask for it when I need it. That is what I would prefer and had been thinking about doing.

I'll see if he pats my wing again on Monday. He's trying. He really is. To be continued.

xoxo

Liese

Hi Liese,

I had something similar happen when my T told me that he doesn't get "easily offended"- for example, when a car cuts him off in traffic, he doesn't get angry about it. OK, fine. But I don't believe him, I have seen examples where he has been "offended" before. I just want to call him on it sometimes- my BS detector was flashing.

Do you think that there is a possibility that we are working so hard to control and rationalize our "issues" that we have lost sight of what "normal" people have- the ability to discern and hold boundaries, and just allow ourselves to go ahead and get pissed off to keep those boundaries firm? (when it is justified, of course) Anger can serve a purpose. Ask a political activist that advocates for those who are less fortunate, fights against injustice and exploitation... etc. Knowing that the question may be about picking the real battles, not the ones that we shouldn't sink deeper into. For example, if someone is driving dangerously, we have the choice to remain calm, or maybe report their license number. Swearing and pounding the steering wheel don't help much at all.

I dunno, a lot of mental energy seems to be spent on denying and twisting ourselves into knots over what can and should be a simple response- getting angry about something. Or not.

I'm just throwing this concept into the pot for a different flavor, not to discount anything that was written prior. I read a lot of these posts and get a lot of value out of them.

Our T's comments, me thinks, are probably not worthy battles to "fight" in our minds. But if there are too many comments like this, and the T is not willing to share any of his own shortcomings, I would question the ego of the T, because this is something that indeed WILL color every session. Again, easy for me to say.

Can you clarify what you meant (without getting into details you don't want to) about getting into and "enactment" with your T? And his part in it, not being experienced with working with transference? And what he is doing now to build your trust?

Oh, and I just read the part about how he 'fessed up about having feelings not reciprocated! Excellent. I think I would trust him more. He sounds human. Which is NOT the same thing as being envious of what he may have that we/you/I may have, that would be our own "shit". But humans are not perfect, and it sounds like you want contact with a real live human being. Me too!



Congrats on the job!

quote:

Do you think that there is a possibility that we are working so hard to control and rationalize our "issues" that we have lost sight of what "normal" people have- the ability to discern and hold boundaries, and just allow ourselves to go ahead and get pissed off to keep those boundaries firm?

Hey number9, always good to hear your thoughts. Wodnering if you can explain what you wrote above a little more? Are you saying that I'm rationalizing my issues and not realizing that my T has the ability to ....? Sorry, I'm not getting it.

And how am I rationalizing my issues? Do you mean because I was upset that he might be someone who has never been rejected and so focusing more on that and how unbelievable that is than that I've been horribly rejected and that's where the problem really is?

Number9, my H is a huge advocate for the disabled and for the underdog. But, he is not in touch with his own anger. And, he takes care of other people better than he takes care of his own family. I'm not seeing that he is any better off than anyone else. By advocating for the disabled, he is tending to his own wounds, IMHO.

Stage 3 of the trauma work is return to the real world and to competition. When I got angry at T because of what he said, it really brought to my attention the anger I have at people that I see as being more fortunate than me. The ones who just kind of, I don't know, just walk the earth without regard to other people's feelings. The people who never seem to know what it's like to be alone or lonely. People who don't know what it's like to work for a friend.

Maybe those people aren't real and that is something I have to overcome. My reaction to T brought to my attention that this is a HUGE issue I have. I have a lot of anger there. T is the least of my problems. I'm thinking about when I go back into the workforce (very soon!) and have to deal with people and find myself perhaps reading into people and getting angry and learning to NOT let it affect the relationship, somehow.

The social stuff is much easier for some people. And they haven't experienced the anxiety and pain surrounding it that I have. And I'm afraid that I'm going to overreact when I go into the real world because of what I see as their insensitivity.

I was just afraid that my anger was so strong that I wouldn't be able to work with T anymore. And if it was true, that he'd never had feelings that weren't reciprocated, I'm not really sure what that would mean. As far as who he is as a person. Did you see that Mel Gibson movie, "What Women Want?" It was hysterical and really showed that what was going on in Mel's head was vastly different than reality.

The enactment is really hard for me to describe but involved the preoccupied part of my set-up and T not really knowing that what he was doing was actually exacerbating that part of me. He thought he was holding the boundaries. But he was holding them so far back that I wasn't getting a sense of his caring.

I've been going to him, well, now for 4 years but when all the enactment stuff started, I'd been seeing him for 3 years. And IMO, he was still acting like this person I'd just met the day before, all every boundaried and professional, etc. I know it is a professional relationship BUT .... we are human beings also.

So, actually how he was reacting to me triggered certain responses in me that probably wouldn't have happened with someone who has a greater understanding of the attachment styles. The attachment styles are not his strength.

Does that help?

xoxo

Liese

Liese,

I need to be careful. I admit, I'm a little angry right now and don't want to bring too much of my own stuff here, I'll leave that on my own post.

I have to remember that I'm not a T, this is all my perception.

I tend to rationalize issues. Not sure if you do or not. But this is close to home for me, my T had mentioned that he never gets "easily offended". So I'm trying to make sense of that myself. What I feel is shame... like I'm the "only one" who has that defect. A deep feeling, not intellectual, but primal, that I'm "bad" and need to go hide now- I don't feel like the rest of the human race. My T was just so happy to point out that he is above having that issue. Blah, blah, blah. So here we go, the more I open my mouth, the more I feel I'm being "led" down the path. There is nothing I can do or say about it. If someone wants to say that I'm easily offended, I have 2 choices. 1. accept it, or 2. deny it, (which includes my stating that probably 90% of the personnel in any given office environment probably has the same issue) ...and get backed up against the wall, as that gives T a perfect excuse to say that I'm easily offended. I feel Trapped. Set up. I feel like lose my power around my T. No choice. If my T said that he had these tendencies as well, I might be more willing to see them in myself. Like I CHOSE to see the tendencies I don't like about myself. Arggh. I don't know, would this relate somehow to the concerns you had? I hope it helps somehow.

Is this yet ANOTHER word trap? I really don't like these games!

When a T says something like this, Is it a trick, to see how we react? Is it hypocrisy,(mine seems to have a big ego of late) and when is it honest? Your T at least sounds honest. Talk about trust issues- I always expect tricks, deception, and hypocrisy.

I also get "angry" about the same things you do. People that walk the earth without regard for anyone but themselves. That are incompetent but still reap financial rewards. The ones that use people. The ones that don't know what it is like to be lonely.

A trigger? People that ask me what I'm doing for Christmas. Of course I'm polite, but oh, boy, the internal anger gets set off. What's cool here is that I'm not going to go off about that one. I'll focus on making a good holiday for myself- a hike, a movie, a glass of wine...

OK, the quote. To make it simple:

If the anger is justified, and part of the work I see that I am doing, is figuring out what is justified (some people ARE jerks) and what is not...

...Can (I) just allow (myself) to go ahead and get angry, without all the other stuff attached? Clean, honest, normal, anger?

Having said that, I like what you said about the workforce. It can be a minefield. There are lots and lots of "triggers" for even the most well-balanced people out there.

Does your T allow you to vent, btw? I found that when I was allowed to vent, the things that made me angry no longer had as much power. I didn't get set off as much.

And what was interesting is that I found that often I would talk to people and let them vent to me! I find that there is a lot of anger in the world in general.

In reading your last few paragraphs, I'm wondering if I'm going through the same thing, but I'm not sure.

Thanks!

Hey xoxo,

I'm okay with the holiday stuff but had/have envy in other situations I didn't realize was envy. Like, in the professional and social arenas.

My problem with anger in social situations comes when someone makes a nasty comment about someone else or someone wants to exclude someone else from a get together. I'm very sensitive to that. And, I guess I think that as I go back into the world and I'm around more people, I'm going to hear that kind of stuff more and more often and it's going to set off all kinds of alarms and I won't be able to function emotionally.

Maybe I'm wrong but I just assume that the people who have been successful socially are the ones who do the excluding. And, so if one of my goals is to become more successful socially, how am I going to deal with exclusion?

But maybe this is exactly where I have some irrational core beliefs going on and need to do some work. And that's why I thought it was a good thing that this happened with my T, my reaction to his comment, because it would give me the opportunity to work through some very difficult feelings and beliefs.

I think you are right that a more psychoanalytically trained therapist would have been better equiped to have handled my transference. My T and Tn's OldT do have similarities in terms of them both not being comfortable and/or knowledgeable about transference. The ironic thing is that as soon as T came to terms with it and accepted it and accepted the two days a week, it feels so much less intense, I feel so much more stable. I'm able to actually let go of T (my preoccupation) and engage IRL so much more and face all my fears about going back into the world, knowing the my relationships with T is stable and secure. It really does work.

I was just checking out Jeffrey Young's website, a CBTer who seems to have turned towards attachment theory and incorporates those ideas into his work. For borderlines, he recommends twice weekly sessions for three years! His schema therapy all sounds very CBTish and impersonal but I think he is heading in the right direction.

xoxo

Liese

(((((((DF))))))

Thanks for the great reply. You didn't say anything offensive at all. What you say makes total sense to me in theory. And I know that I myself might prefer some one on one time with someone but that it doesn't mean that I don't like so and so. It just might be my preference at that particular time. But I think I just don't get the whole social web thing, the social hierarchy.

The funny thing is, that my parents were such group-oriented people when I was young and now that I'm older, I'm going in the other direction completely. We went on group vacations with our neighbors, which I hated by the way, and we had block parties. It was almost like there was more a sense of the group than the individual.

My last job was quite a while ago. One of the only other women who held the same job I did, announced to me when I first started working there that she doesn't do friendships with women because she doesn't like drama. And then she hung out with all the other people at lunch, etc., and I was never invited. I did the best I could to make other friends. But it's hard for me to forget something like that. I would call that exclusivity. (BTW, she had great legs!)

Then she formed an "office" softball team. My H had been hired but didn't start yet. I asked if he could join and she consulted with the other "men" on the team and they all said that they wanted a lot of playing time and didn't want a lot of subs, so they said no, my H could not join the softball team.

Her H started bringing two women from his office to sub for me when I went away. Well, all of a sudden he started to pull me out of the game when I WAS there, which wasn't the way it was supposed to be. They were just supposed to sub only when I went away. But they were good. Better than me. But that didn't matter. Because there were other men on the team who weren't that good either. Probably her H liked those women better.

What bothered me the most was that they just didn't care. They didn't care how hurt I was. They didn't care that they didn't let my H join the team because the men wanted lots of playing time. I talked to this woman on the phone about it all and she told me that her H told her to not even talk to me about it, to just ignore it. I just wound up quitting the team because the emotional toll it took on me was not worth playing on the team. It tore me right open.

Anyway, these have been some of my experiences in the workplace. These are the type of people I hate. There are people out there who treat other people like shit. I don't know what the answer is DF. Learn to stay away from those types of people?

I guess I see it as that there are people out there who never have trouble (this woman) attracting people to hang out with. Maybe I'm just not as much fun to hang out with and I have to accept that I will always be socially excluded by certain people, and then I want get so hurt anymore.

The great news is that my new boss has already told me that there is no BS at this office. That no one talks about anyone, etc. etc. He and his wife are trying to create a particular environment in the office so already I'm feeling a little safer about working there.

xoxo

Liese

Hey DF,

Thanks for telling me she was a b**ch. Stuff like this always seems to happen to me. I think that I must not be threatening enough to people and that they feel I am discardable. I have to learn to stand up for myself.

It was a vulnerable time for me. And she did lunch with all the other attorneys (who were male) in the office, so basically I was the only one not included. It's not that I wanted to be friends with her. It was the exclusion.

And I just wanted to play softball. I loved softball and didn't make the high school team. It broke my heart because I had a passion for it. Was always getting up games in the park, etc., with friends but had never played on "teams". So, in a way, it was a dream come true for me. It meant a lot to me to play.

Yeah, I guess she had her issues. She wound up having two babies while she worked in our office and they were both boys. When she was pregnant, she often remarked that she had hoped she was having boys, couldn't deal with girls, etc. I kept thinking, oh, thank God she didn't have a girl.

Her parents were divorced and she had some kind of problem with her Mom during her engagement. She said it was because her mother was jealous of her boyfriend.

Anyway, I just wish I'd had the security to know that it was all her problem but unfortunately took it all as an indictment of my self-worth. It didn't help that it didn't bother anyone else in the office. They just continued on with the softball.

My T says that it's just now that I'm realizing how mean people can be, that I took it all upon myself, attributed goodness to everyone else and I was bad (my borderline splitting) and felt I deserved to be treated that way. I'm so glad I finally woke up! But now I have to learn how to protect myself. And become more socially savvy.

xoxo

Love,

Liese

Thanks xoxo,

That was nice! Hey, my Mom started me in school early too. So, I was the youngest in my family and the youngest in school and always felt as though I missed out on lots of stuff, jokes, etc.

It seems like a really nice office and as T and I have discussed, I'm not going to focus on making friends. Just doing my job and being friendly to everyone.

At that office, after that woman left, another group of attorneys came in and I was not a part of their group either. My boss was telling me about one of the newbies wanting to be friends with them and how desperate she was to be their friend and that they hated her and how pathetic it was. So, I said to him, I'm not in their group either. And he said, yeah, but you don't care.

Oh, but I did care. It was killing me. I guess I just don't understand why some people can just fit in and go from office to office and always make friends. It doesn't matter how many books I read. It will always befuddle me.

xoxo

Liese