I am wondering if maybe your anger feels so violent because you never learned to regulate it and because you have such a backlog of anger that was never felt or expressed? This was the case with me, definitely. I suppressed my anger for so long, that this past summer when I finally began to allow myself to feel it, it felt totally out of control at first. After a few months though, it started to feel more manageable. So maybe if you can just allow yourself to feel it while breathing through it, or do something with the energy like exercising, it will start to calm down and feel less violent after a while.

Alpaca,

I definitely never learned to regulate it. I'm so glad to hear that it only took a couple of months for it to become manageable. Breathing exercises might help. I'll have to try them. The problem for me is that it feels like I'm being overtaken by an alien. Do you remember that movie with Sigourney Weaver? I think it was called Alien. Do you remember how they writhed in pain when the alien took them over? That's how it feels to me.

((((AG)))) It broke my heart to hear about your Dad. I'm not sure what hurt me more: the violence or the fact that he called you guys f---ing leeches.

I know what you mean when you say you associate anger with power. I do too. Or I did. I don't know why but I found it a little endearing that you wanted to smash your T in the head with a statue. That sounds kind of twisted. Maybe it was because you were able to tell him? Did you mean it when you said it at the time? Or was it after the fact when you weren't angry anymore? I think I'm imagining you saying it after the fact with a little bit of a twinkle in your eye.

I'm wondering, though, why it FEELS violent. Just experiencing it is pure torture. It's brutal. And I don't know why.

I got angry at my T twice before Christmas and I felt absolutely twisted. I had to let it go over the holidays and felt as though I came out on the other side of my anger. When I did come out on the other side of my anger, I was able to see that T wasn't evil for saying or doing what he did. Either I misunderstood what he was saying or he misunderstood me. But in either case, I have the POWER to go back to him and ask for clarification and/or ask him to listen to me more.

I decided to ask him today if we should discuss it even though I resolved it all on my own. And his response to me was, "You don't have to do this all alone."

So we talked about it. But I'm still not sure why it FEELS so bad.

xoxoxo

Liese

I never saw the movie Alien, thank goodness. I hate scary movies. But I can definitely identify with that image as a way of describing what anger feels like.

The truth to me is that anger *is* a violent emotion. It doesn't usually feel good (unless there's a thrill of power along with it) and it tends to make us want to do violent things, like AG pointed out. That's just the nature of anger. But, happily yes, it possible to learn to regulate it better, and to feel more safe about being able to feel or express it in a nonviolent way.

One of my spiritual teachers says that we need to take care of our anger as though it were an upset child. I think that's a good way of looking at it, because it gives us a bit of distance from the feeling at the same time as activating our compassion, which will tend to calm the anger some. The exercise that goes with this is something like:

"Breathing in, I am aware of my anger."
"Breathing out, I embrace my anger."

Embrace might not be a good word for you to use if it makes it sound like you are trying to heighten the anger somehow. It's supposed to be meant as a gentle, calming embrace. But you could substitute "accept" or even "calm" and I think it would be about the same.

quote:

However, it was very dangerous to get angry with my dad, so anger was something I deeply feared

AG I'm so sorry to hear about what you went through with your Dad. I completely resonate with not being able to be angry.

I guess its what Alpaca says. Treating the anger like a small child. Not labelling it as an evil or wrong presence. Understanding the logic within it all. Understanding the human needs we have and what happens if we are denied feeling what we feel, therefore it is a legitimate and a totally understandable reason why we are scared of it but neither should we be. It is to do with acceptance. I guess that takes time because its another vulnerability of ours that needs to be exposed and compassionately understood.

My Dad used to be violent at times when I challenged him about his unfairness. There was one time where he had a gun. He put it in my hand to feel the weight, took it back and then chased me up the stairs with it. I ran into the bathroom, attempted to lock the door from him but he got through. Pointed the gun at me and pulled the trigger. There was nothing in the barrel but not knowing this at aged 14 is very scary. He laughed. I got angry at him and he got angry at me for getting angry at him and left me sitting there, a nervous wreck.

I'm not used to expressing anger. Though my anger comes out in different ways. For instance with technology, if my computer runs slow or stops working, I get extremely angry sometimes. The amount of computers I've broken. I've thrown phones against the wall. Broken games consoles. Stereo systems.

I sometimes get angry at myself, though its not as often as it used to be. If I could not find keys or something I needed or could not do something right, I would start hitting myself, pulling my own hair, slapping my head. And its not gone away, I just know where things are now..

I worry about the violent part of it too. I worry how much I suppress my anger. I keep myself in seclusion most of the time.

I told my T of one time when I was 15, I decided to run away from home with our pet dog. But before I would do that, I proceeded to set the house on fire. I wanted to get rid of it once and for all. I started the fire up in the hallway and I would have done it had my Dad not pulled up on the driveway just at that moment. My T said that it was rage that made me do it. I still cannot connect to the rage. She says that we need to work on getting my anger out but I cannot fathom where it is which worries me.

When I'm alone in the house, I let myself go. And I get wound up and very irritable very easily. But because people are in the house, I keep it locked in.

Liese, good luck ) You are doing really well.

((((ALPACA)))

Thanks for sharing your views on anger with me. It helps to know that others view it as a strong emotion. I don't know if I want to heighten it but just experience it and get to the other side of it. And to make the experience less intense, maybe. So, maybe embrace is a good way of putting it. I wonder if it partly feels so awful because of the side of me that is trying to hold it down and suppress it?

((((FMN))))

back to you. I worry too because I don't know where my anger is either. But I guess it's getting stored in there somewhere. T told me that you can't get at emotions directly, as in, alling forth your anger. That you get at them indirectly. Your Dad sounds like a scary person. I'm sorry you had to grow up like that.

xoxoxoxo

Liese

quote:

I wonder if it partly feels so awful because of the side of me that is trying to hold it down and suppress it?

That could very easily be true, in my opinion.

I was shocked to learn that even Marshall Rosenberg, the guy who invented Nonviolent Communication, says he lets himself enjoy violent fantasies (like imagining ripping someone's head off) when he is angry...he just doesn't act on them. I imagine allowing the fantasy helps to get past the feeling faster. So really we all experience this the same way in sense, even people who might *seem* very "evolved."

I dont wanna take away from what other people said here that is helpful because my answer isnt very helpful. sorry. just going to write here that anger Always Always feels violent to me. and when i feel anger i feel like bad person because of the violent thoughts tied to it. and when its strong i dont know how to feel anger without having violent thoughts. hardly ever act on them. but just that i want to be violent in my heart or mind seems to make me bad person. remember when T called cops after i slammed the door so hard that it made the fire extinguisher fall off the wall? that means i was bad. and if you dont have violent thoughts then what do you do with all that anger just so much pressure inside so uncomfortable yucky. Who wants to feel that way and not be able to get rid of it somehow? seems like there is nothing good at all about feeling anger. maybe is better to squash it.

Cipher,

Anger always felt violent for me, I think because I had real reasons to be so angry but that holding it in for so long had built up a LOT of pressure that was screaming for release and it felt like the only way to release it was to do an act of violence. My T once told me that what got me into trouble wasn't expressing or acknowledging my feelings, it was the ones I couldn't own that got me into trouble. Feelings will come out one way or another; if we can not acknowledge and speak them, then we act them out. In other words, squashing down our anger and not being able to recognize it makes us MORE likely to commit an act of violence.

Getting angry does NOT make us bad people. Anger is an emotion that is meant to alert us to when we feel we are being wronged so that we can take care of ourselves. Anger, properly channeled can be used to correct situations that need to be corrected. (Because of my faith beliefs, I take great solace that even Christ, who was perfect, became angry at the moneychangers in the temple to the point of overturning some furniture). The problem people like us run into is that anger being properly expressed was not modeled for us so we never learned to regulate it. So when we start to express it we can run into volume problems.

I think your T overreacted by calling the police when the fire extinguisher came off the wall. I know for me that would have reinforced my feelings of being a bad person. OTOH, I remember discussing with my T once how much my anger scared me and he reassured me that he would keep both of us safe, up to and including calling the authorities, but it wouldn't be because my being angry was wrong, just that how I choose to express it might be inappropriate.

Last but not least, I would venture the opinion that continuing to squash is what leads to depression. Depression is anger turned inwards, if we can not direct our anger outward to its source, we turn it inward upon ourselves.

All that said, I do not want you to think I am heedless of just how very scary and threatening this can feel and why you would want it to just be gone. NOTHING makes me more uncomfortable than my anger. I'd rather be discussing sex with my therapist than anger. I don't think I ever make him work harder than in getting me to express my anger.

AG

Hey Cipher, I don't think the answer is to squash it either. I'm sorry you had that experience with your T. She probably needs to help you work through it more instead of being afraid of it.

I don't have violent thoughts when I'm angry. I have vicious thoughts. Like the person is incompetent, etc., and I try to think of the most harmful, hurtful thing I can say to them to hurt them. Of course, I've done this in real life and it never turns out too good. But the anger that feels violent feels like it's being "done" to me, which I think means that the violence feels like it's being done to me. I'm not having violent thoughts at the time when I'm experiencing it. Does that make sense?

Do you mean it feels like the anger itself is violent towards you, hurting you, even though it's your own anger?

Yes, Alpaca, that's exactly what I mean. Like, in the movie Alien. Well, it's been a long time since I've seen it. But from what I remember, the alien would get inside of their bodies without their knowledge or permission and take them over, they would be helpless and had no control over what was happening to them and they would writhe in pain. It was something that was being done to them that they just had to experience.

This is all sounding very grim to me.

Liese,

I once used the Alien analogy with my T to describe how I felt while anxiety and fear built inside me. It is like I'm doing all the techniques I can, deep breathing, meditation, distraction, and it is still growing and I'm afraid it is going to pop out of my chest in a horrible mess and leave my dead lifeless body behind.

I struggle with controlling my anger as well but usually it is when I feel powerless. I remember shaking with rage when my first daughter was a baby because I couldn't figure out how to comfort her when she was crying and everything I did didn't work. I wasn't ever close to hurting her with my anger but I had to strap her into her swing and walk away. I find I can manage my anger when I can express it and I've gotten a lot better at modulating the expression so I can describe it in a non-hurtful way since I started therapy. I think it is because I have so much compassion for other people's feelings that usually even though I'm angry I'm still aware of the other person's feelings.

I should say I grew up in a house where only the adults got to be angry and act out anger with yelling and hitting. First it was my parents and then it was my older siblings. I swallowed a lot of anger as a child and sometimes I shook and cried with the effort of controlling it. I noticed when I had children my anger which I thought I had gotten rid of came back and I realized in part it was because I was the parent and I thought I should get to act out and express my anger. I usually only express anger to my kids and husband. Outside my family I still swallow it.

It is a work in progress. I hope yours gets more manageable soon.

Maybe part of the reason you experience anger as something hostile and threatening is that you haven't connected to the purpose of it? Like you don't understand how it is really there to protect you from something? Like if you had a dog and it started barking and freaking out and you thought the dog wanted to hurt YOU, but actually it was trying to alert you to the burglar who was trying to break in through the window?

((((INCOGNITO)))))

Oh, very interesting that you used the Alien analogy also. What did your T say in response? As I was writing it out, I wondered if it had to do with either PA or SA because that is the sense I got from the words and that experience of being taken over and/or having someone control my body without my permission and the rage that must have accompanied that experience? Yucky stuff!

(((((ALPACA)))) I love that analogy and I'm going to give it some thought. Yes, it could be that it's totally disocciated from me and so it doesn't even seem to be a part of me and that's why it is so alien?

Muff,
Just wanted to say that I thought that was a spot-on explanation. Thank you.

AG

That sums up therapy in one sentence.

(((MUFF))))

Nice to meet you and thanks for the explanation. I'm wondering if, suppression and repression aside, there might be a connection to the fact that the anger feels violent to me - I'm not having violent thoughts - and past SA and PA? As in just feeling the emotion triggers memories of SA and PA in and of itself and that's why it feels so difficult to tolerate? I think what I'm feeling is beyond anger and more into the rage aspect of things.

Hi Muff,

Thanks for the tip about the pillows. T has lots of large ones and I do often cling to them when I feel vulnerable. But I might need to keep them closer as we get closer to this "crap" I feel. I never gave too much thought to fantasy. Although when I was little, I used to pretend that I had a naked younger sister I could push around. She wasn't naked for any sexual reasons. Just the vulnerability of it all. Hmmm, that's pretty twisted, huh?

I'm so sorry about your childhood. It was sad to read about it. I'm glad though that you are now able to disappoint. I'm just getting to that stage with my Mom and it's actually very sad because she is somewhat more accepting than she has been in the past but it's also causing her to go into a depression of sorts. But I imagine that she was avoiding all of her own pain and all the grieving she needed to do by filling herself up with her children. And my job in life is not to help her avoid her own pain.

BUT, do you think my theory holds any water? I kind of like my theory, that the emotion itself is triggering memories from PA and SA and therefore the rage that I must have experienced at the time but wasn't permitted or didn't permit myself to feel?

We need a memory/trauma expert to weigh in.

xoxo

Liese

MUFF,

They say imaginary friends are a sign of high intelligence. I never had one. Yes, I understand what you mean about your past mother and your today mother. I can't change my today mother either but what I have done is to stop taking care of her emotional needs so much because life demands that I take care of my kids and myself first. Me pulling away and not feeding into her stuff is what is contributing to her getting depressed. It's very hard to do it knowing how much pain she is in and that she is basically alone. I really don't want to hurt her but I do want to be happy. My Dad is gone and she relied on him a lot.

I hadn't been able to pull away from her until I started therapy. I have a lot of guilt that I'm not a loving person, not a good daughter but the truth is that my mother would really only love me and be proud of me if I did what she wanted all the time. It wouldn't matter to her if my head was on sidesways (because it's been on sideways and she never noticed) and it wouldn't matter if I wasn't functional as long as I did what she wanted me to do and loved her and my brother the way she wants us to. It's really awful.

Thanks for validating my theory. My memories aren't false. I know certain things happened. But they've just been memories, kwim? I can recall them but not with the emotion attached to it. Considering how I feel like I just have to endure these feelings and actually feel thrown around by the intensity of the emotions, that's what made me think it might be linked to PA or SA. It reminded me of when my brother would pull me away from the dinner table, take me outside, beat me up and then bring me back to the dinner table. My hair would be all over the place. I'd have bruises on me. And everyone would carry on like nothing happened. I guess that feeling of being dragged away from the table, not having any control, being tossed around, kind of reminds me of what I am feeling when I experience anger now. I don't remember being particularly angry about it back then. Just kind of startled. But I must have been angry, right?

Because the things that I'm angry with my T about weren't that bad. I had just asked him to validate something for me and he wouldn't do it and I left the session feeling really twisted about it. What was the big deal? Now I know I can go back to him and say, this is really important to me and we need to talk about it. The other thing I was upset about was a bigger deal but when I got through to the other side of the anger, I knew my T was only coming from a caring place and again, I could go back to him and talk to him about what was going on for me. I feel that both of things I was upset about were appropriate things to be upset about but the intensity of what I felt was way out of proportion. Which I know is typical.

Liese

((((((MUFF))))))

(((((MUFF)))))

c

I once heard a great quote "anger is a raging sadness".

After hearing that it changed my perspective on anger. Its a raging distraction from being very sad. Its good to try and skip the anger and feel the sadness that's behind it.

I feel like anger itself is only destructive.

d

quote:

Originally posted by muff:
Repressed anger can be very destuctive if it remains within us.

I agree Muff. I am just saying a higher expression of anger is to feel the sadness behind it. The anger is a distraction/ mirage of our sadness. Does that make sense?

Anger expressed can also be destructive out in the world as much as it can be destructive held with in us.

quote:

I feel like anger itself is only destructive.

Hi Laura,
Welcome to the forums. I do agree that sometimes anger can be a way of masking our hurts. It can often feel more powerful and less helpless to be angry than hurt and in those cases, its important to dig beneath it.

I also understand how anger can be a very problematic emotion. It was very poorly modeled in my family. Only my father could get angry (the rest of us could get in serious trouble for expressing our anger) and when he did, it often turned to violence. So anger became for me the scariest of all emotions. It has taken a lot of time and a lot of work for me to learn that anger is just another feeling and like any other feeling provides us good information about who we are and what we're doing.

Anger is an indication that something is happening that we do not like or that is injuring us. If handled and expressed responsibly, it spurs us to protect ourselves and can be the energy that promotes change. For a very broad example, it was anger about how wrong slavery was that led to abolition.

It's very important for our mental health that we are able to own and express our anger (in a non-destructive way) because anger sent underground because we think it's always "bad" gets stored and twisted in very damaging ways.

A healthy, committed relationship should have the ability to allow each person's anger to be heard and expressed, just like any other feeling.

AG

c

Liese,

I used anger as a shield. I had seen the most important person in my life hurt by his friend. He cried, I saw the strongest person in my life sob and the hurt killed him (long story) ... the person hurt was my father.

I then decided to shield myself with anger, I would strike with anger first and not cry ... I was like a volcano (ho, what a potty mouth )

T caught this soooooo fast (not the potty mouth ... I can still make a sailor blush ) and once I knew why I was angry, I was able to learn when and how to use my anger. My T once said "if you expect to go through therapy and not be angry again (she pointed at the door)leave and don't let the the door hit your butt on the way out!" Anger is a natural emotion if used right and T taught me how to use my anger. I now am able to laugh at this session and I still get angry, but I know how and when to use my anger ... not to have the violent feelings and for me the shame that comes with the feelings is one the highest accomplishments of my therapy. I'm not sure this has helped you, but it has made me a healthier person ... and those who know I been in therapy say I'm much happier.

kansas

((((KANSAS))))

My problem has been that first I completely suppressed my anger. Someone took a poll on this forum and I was the only one who had never slammed a door. T has told me that because I'm so averse to my anger, I use it to shut me down so that my world becomes smaller and smaller.

And then when I first started to get angry at T, I would get really triggered and run. It set off all kinds of bells in my head. Now that I actually let myself "tolerate" it some, it feels violent or like I'm being overtaken but at least I can get to the other side of it now.

I keep mentioning to T that I need to learn how to tolerate it better and then maybe I'll be able to experience it and he doesn't answer me. I'm wondering if there is something else that I have to do with it? Some other wonderful experience I have to go through in therapy? LOL!

Kansas, so glad your T was able to help you.

Liese

quote:

Originally posted by Alpaca:
Maybe part of the reason you experience anger as something hostile and threatening is that you haven't connected to the purpose of it? Like you don't understand how it is really there to protect you from something? Like if you had a dog and it started barking and freaking out and you thought the dog wanted to hurt YOU, but actually it was trying to alert you to the burglar who was trying to break in through the window?

Def insightful Alpaca!

Liese,

Going through therapy I read alot. Much of the material was suggested by T, but I did reading on my own (The Gift of Therapy by Irvin Yalom was my favorite).

According to another book I read, generally,
there are two types of anger 1)anger turned inward & 2)anger turned outward. I have the #2 anger and you have the #1 anger. A thinking solution for both of these would be to stop creating our anger ...I know I created my anger, but stopping it was not easy and neither is your inner anger. It is hard to teach an 'old dog a new trick'.

I had not cried for years and let my anger rule. I read a book that talked about "softening of the belly", we keep anger, fear, disappointment and guilt in our gut. Our belly turns hard as we hide our emotions in our gut. I had to think of the anger I would show outwardly and the anger I had stuffed inside ... I needed to and work on letting it go. The exercise is done by closing your eyes and paying attention to your body. I could feel the hardness in my belly and was afraid to let it go for I knew the hurt I was going to feel. I knew when my belly was no longer so hard with anger, I would be able to to open my heart. I remember telling T I was scared to soften my belly because it would hurt, T said "I'll be there with you". T worked with me slowly and the hurt was there, when my belly softened (I was not with T)the tears I cried were like a flood and the anger was gone. This did not make my world perfect, but gave me a huge push in the right direction.

I hope I have given you an idea that there is an answer to letting go of your feeling of violent anger.

Extra hugs, kansas

c

I have been thinking about and trying to deal with my anger lately... and feeling terribly stuck. I have been reading along with this thread, and it's been helpful to know I'm not so alone in everything I'm struggling with about anger.

quote:

I'm wondering, though, why it FEELS violent. Just experiencing it is pure torture. It's brutal. And I don't know why.

Anger that gets stuffed and built up does seem to come out like this torturious monster I wrestle with inside of me, even when no one can really tell on the outside.

One thing I have learned is that anger has a purpose. We don’t just get angry for no reason. Just like we don’t get scared for no reason. My T points out that anger tells us something is wrong – that something we value is at risk, or a boundary cross, or etc. Anger has important information… She’s always talking about the information our emotions have to tell us, in part so that I can learn how to find healthy ways to meet the needs of an emotion, like whatever anger is trying to do.

It’s like if I step on a nail, I feel pain. It hurts – and that is a good thing that it hurts. If it didn’t, then I wouldn’t nessecarily know I’m wounded and then the wound could get infected… and I could get really sick and never really heal...

It’s a little like anger too. If I ignore it, don’t feel it, then it tends to fester, not just the wound, but the thing that causes the wound also never gets addressed either.
For me right now, I just feel like one big hurting mess though. There is so much, and feeling it now, it hurts! Really bad. It is nightmarish.

Being angry and safe doesn’t really register for me. It’s like hearing Madarin.
I’ve seen a whole lot of anger expressed by others. I’ve seen it be life threatening. I’ve been hurt.

Years ago, when I was even as old as 19, I’ve yelled at my parents, in angry fear of them…

As an adult, I’ve become well practiced at stuffing all my anger and turning it on me…. Until once every couple of years, I explode and yell at someone. But now, my inner critic isn’t raging at me 24-7… and my nager is surfacing in this steady but intense way.

If I can be as mean as I am to myself, I get scared I’ll be a jerk to others.

But my T keeps saying I can learn to express my anger, hear what it is trying to tell me, and learn to regulate it. She says I don’t have to do it alone either, that she will go there with me.

I’m so scared I will turn into a monster… I don't want to turn into being like my abusers. My T says I won't, she is sure of that, she will help me, but I'm scared and feeling stuck and begining to shut down and numb out all of me in an attempt to try to numb out the anger.

~ jane

((((((JANE)))))

I am sorry you experience anger the way I do.

"I’m so scared I will turn into a monster… I don't want to turn into being like my abusers. My T says I won't, she is sure of that, she will help me, but I'm scared and feeling stuck and begining to shut down and numb out all of me in an attempt to try to numb out the anger."

Wish there was something I could say that would help but feel pretty stuck myself in this area.
I keep hoping that as I let myself experience it, it will lessen in intensity but that hasn't happened yet. Maybe I have to learn to bring the intensity down?



((((JANE))))

v

Muff,
Thanks for posting this as I just went through a "brain spew" (great way to describe it btw). I hit some really deep pre-verbal intense feelings about moving closer in relationship. I had gone back to see my T and at one point ended up telling him that it felt like someone had taken a cauldron and poured in love, fear and shame and mixed them so thoroughly, there was no distilling them back out into separate things. I felt a lot better at the end of the session as my T was his usual wonderful self, but woke up with a therapy hangover the next morning. I finally called him, because on a fundamental level, having opened up to him on a such a vulnerable place left me very scared about him still being there and being the same person. I got the reassurance I needed, but when I got off the phone I had a total meltdown. Rocking back and forth, sobbing and wordlessly screaming. I scared the crap out of my poor dog. It was as you described, when it was over, all the tension and pressure were gone, but I was totally exhausted. This was especially encouraging to read because I think I can feel another wave coming in. So thanks.

AG

Muff,
I'm just curious...if you want to answer? Did you spend several years in therapy like AG did? Your posts and insights just make me wonder. I just answered my own question...you said in your post you did. After reading though I guess I have a lot of repressed anger...tense up even just on reading some of the stuff posted here and feel pricklies coming from inside and touching my skin outside...it is weird. The hardest thing is to express it for me as I seem to want to be listened to but not have someone say "did you really feel like nobody cared?"...I want to just have it accepted. I guess I try to control their response. Anyways, that was my tiny vent session...thanks for listening.
Hopeful
Hopeful

quote:

The hardest thing is to express it for me as I seem to want to be listened to but not have someone say "did you really feel like nobody cared?"...I want to just have it accepted.

Hopeful,
I find this totally understandable as I felt that way too. So much of my emotional experience was denied or questioned, that I just wanted to be able to say how I feel. One of the things I really love about my T is when I say things like "this really sucks" his response is "it really does." It's like I just get to have whatever feelings I'm having without him having to talk me out of them or tell me why they're wrong. Feelings just are.

And, fwiw, I really felt like nobody cared also. Whenever I hit really deep memories from the past, they have come with this overarcing terrible sense of being utterly alone and abandoned. I'm sorry that you've felt that too. But you deserve to be able to speak about it and have it heard.



AG

Thanks AG,
Some things just bring me back to therapy sessions where it was responded to with those words...I know they can't always respond in the way we would have them respond and I think I have to remember my T is someone who cares. It was such a critical thing I had talked about and it just felt like she responded just how everyone else had in the past. I'm sure it was all she could do at the moment but it does feel good to put it out here and have you respond...it really is emotional. Thank you for the kind response.