quote:

kind of like anticipating the worst possible interpretation in order to protect myself both from experiencing my own pathetic neediness and to pre-empt being ambushed by its really being as bad as I fear it will be.

Like BG, I tend not to feel intensely angry at my T. Mostly, if I feel misunderstood or hurt, I get intensely angry at myself, but that is the only way I "do" anger. However, I relate exactly to the quote above. I have told T specifically that he makes me feel so safe, and then safety itself is UNSAFE. I am waiting for the ambush, as you say. So, my mind starts making up all sorts of things about T, what he thinks/feels in regard to me, how he will push me away or abandon me. It is a form of protection. I even KNOW that it's what I'm probably doing at the time, but that self-awareness doesn't make it feel less real. I really haven't figured out what to do about it, but realizing that it is there helps me get back to trusting T very quickly once I am grounded and any ruptures have been repaired. So, I guess the awareness has made it less like starting from scratch every time I have these experiences, which cause me to shut down. I don't know if that makes sense.

I think it is good that you see the pattern so clearly. For what it is worth, I can become very angry at T after letting even the smallest vulnerability show through.

Thanks guys for replying (it might sound like I’ve written the post in a detached manner but actually it feels like I’ve exposed really negative stuff about me, so thank you for the supportive replies...)

Does it really sound like I’m talking about ‘intense’ anger here? That surprises me as I don’t feel it as particularly strong or intense, more like an ongoing sense of resentment – and I NEVER openly express it, I’m of the ‘let’s talk about what’s pissing me off rationally’ school. But maybe I’m more angry than I recognize in myself?

Thanks BG for the vote of confidence, yeah it seems to me too to be quite a big step towards useful self awareness – lol which doesn’t mean it doesn’t keep happening but at least there’s a chance I can extricate myself from the deadly pattern of alienating myself with angry feelings in the future.

Yaku that sounds exactly what I’m hoping I’ll be able to do now, recognizing the pattern so that it’s not like starting from scratch every single time there’s some kind of rupture or misunderstanding. I so get that sense of helplessness, not being able to stop the worst case scenario images from seeming so real – the trouble is that worst case scenarios have happened so often before it’s hard not to keep fearing and anticipating them.

Stoppers can I ask, do you show or tell your T about the angry feelings? Does s/he know that’s what happens? Or do you just sort it out on your own? Interesting that you are aware of the connection – are you able to do anything about it?

Beebs – your T has probably said something very wise there (yay one positive thing I can say about your T ) It makes perfect sense to me that there is a form of anger that functions purely as a defence, as a means to block vulnerability and stop caring and concern getting in (which of course only increases the sense of exposure and vulnerability!) I’m not sure how to tell the difference though – I suspect that the ideal would be to pick up on the flashes of anger/resentment/negative responses in the moment itself and address them (without actually acting on them) – this is the point I’ve reached with my T, where as soon as I feel disconnected or resentful or feel like something she’s said has created a flash of annoyance or defensiveness in the back of my mind I’ll stop myself or interrupt her and say, hey that just made me feel annoyed/defensive/not understood – and we stop to look at what’s going on in a relatively calm way instead of it niggling away at the back of my mind and ending up turning into something I then hold against her for the next session.

The real issue though is that inevitably the annoyance or irritation or defensiveness is a sure sign that I’m not getting something I’m needing or wanting (and not always aware THAT I’m needing/wanting something or even WHAT I’m needing/wanting.) And that’s the really scary part and also why it’s not quite so simple to admit those flashes, because I know that I’m going to have to own the want/need, or at least try to uncover it and admit it, and after all the anger is there to stop my having to experience the not-getting in the first place, to stop my having to experience my vulnerability neediness and general unlovability – a nice little vicious circle.

When you talk about your T’s interpretations, do you mean that if you expressed anger or annoyance or irritation, he tells you what he thinks it means? I have to say that would ramp up my anger a zillion times – the way it works for me is if T calmly and nondefensively accepts it and then in a concerned and connected way allows me to track what is making me angry – I’d hate it if she turned around and said something like, you’re not really angry at me you’re really angry at someone in your past, who is it – though that’s the ultimate connection we’re trying to get to, it nevertheless would invalidate my current anger and make me feel like I’m in the wrong and bad for feeling angry at her instead of knowing who I’m ‘really’ angry at.

Does your T get defensive do you think? I think he was right on to tell you that the best he could do for you that session was to be there for you – that’s acceptance, that he didn’t try and change or deflect or try and put a lid on your anger. I have come to the conclusion that the only way to avoid misunderstandings and confusion and the like is to keep on saying what’s going on in me moment by moment, and querying any response from T that doesn’t make sense to me, or makes me feel misunderstood or defensive hahahahaha I just love the way I can throw these things out there when in reality it’s SO HARD to do that, to stay in the moment and address what’s happening in the here and now...

I think you’re right on too when you say that you’ll only end up in the same situation with another T – BUT I have to qualify that by referring to my own seemingly endless quest to find the right T – there are some Ts who will end up only reinforcing our patterns, while others will be able to work with them – it’s not always only our stuff that gets in the way of healing.

I’m off now to try and work out whether I’m angry that T is on her Easter break because she didn’t seem to worry how I would cope during the break, or whether I’m plain annoyed simply because she’s on a break and what am I supposed to do in the meantime - and what does that tell me about needs and wants that aren’t getting met and what does that tell me about the past (hm maybe I won’t go into that on my own, far too dangerous)

LL

quote:

Now to respond to your second post, which is that no I don't think it sounds like you're talking about intense anger to me. For some, any anger is intense.

To clarify, I didn't see it as intense anger, but I am so disconnected from anger that isn't directed at myself (most of the time) that any anger toward others feels HUGE. I can usually only sustain being angry at H, T or anyone for a minute or two before I am beating myself up instead, so if I managed to be angry at T for a whole period in between sessions, even if it was mild anger (irritation, frustration, the desire to flick him or be short with him), it would feel SO huge to me.

I go in and say I want to fight with her even though I know she has not done anything or that I need to push her back away from me. Then I get mad because I know how irrational it is but knowing it is irrational does not mean I can control it.

LL, I think I understand what you are feeling here, I believe a good therapist will understand this also and there shouldnt be a termination becuase of your expression of anger, if there was then I'd say you'd better of without that kind of therapist. I think to show your anger so early into your therapy shows a great deal of trust. I too feel as if you do, get angry when T offers kindness etc because I am afraid it will be taken away again, and like you I have a part of me that is unable to take in kindness and sort of take in a sideways kind of way. T said she knows this and understands I'm ok with it as long as we don't focus to much on it.

I often liken myself to a dog thats been mistreated and handed around so much it has lost of trust and when someone genuine and kind comes a long it takes forever to try and get that dog to eat its food whilst being watched, I have to take things away and have them when I'm alone at night most times.

I often feel T has opened the cage unyet I take 1 step toward the opening and then run 3 back, unyet bit by bit I'm getting used to her presence, her continuence her not biting me when I've growled at her, but oh its so slow, I've been with her for over 6yrs now.

Wow thanks DF for your really interesting words – can feel myself relating to a lot in what you describe – something clicked when you used the word ‘disappointment’, and feeling that either T or you are deficient in some way – makes real sense to me – it’s so obvious for me that I’m (mostly unconsciously) expecting certain responses and feel... yes... disappointed (which immediately translates into defensive resentment). That’s what’s so scary about this stuff is trying to get to the feelings/thoughts in the first millisecond before the defensiveness kicks in. I really really do not want to go there

And the sudden switching of T’s supportive and caring words/actions into something mean and negative, that too. Well I’m paranoid so that’s par for the course for me, but if I squint really hard and take a good look at what’s going on behind the paranoid response I can see the same thing – to believe in that goodness would mean believing I deserve it and THAT is a real crime in my set up so anything good must ipso facto be a trick or a trap to make me admit that deep down I probably do believe I deserve the good stuff – wow this is going way off tangent and admitting far too much about my internal set up. Amazing how freaked out I am by having posted this thread ugh ugh ugh

Lol I think your T sounds wonderful – I love that she is so comfortable and happy about anger. I suppose my T would probably be ok – in fact would probably be quite happy too, if I managed to vent and rage and rant at the people who did all the damage – it’s being angry at HER that was the problem. Do you think your T would actually encourage you to be openly angry at her?

Have to say I’m not particularly bothered by T’s holidays or rescheduling or anything either – practical stuff like that doesn’t really hit me anywhere painful – so it’s not the actuality of such things that does me in ie I don’t get all resentful or angry because she’s for instance on a break, it’s more feeling bereft or alone or without resources I dunno this one is hard to explain – I don’t go, oh she’s taken a break how dare she what about me sort of thing, hm need to think about this one... sorry I seem to be thinking aloud here and it’s a bit incoherent...

quote:

the things I'll misinterpret her saying are always something bad about me.

Oh double snap here! I’m so quick to perceive criticisms in everything and am so defensive because I know that’s my set up (paranoia again) that my almost instantaneous response is defensive anger – trouble is I know that beneath that flash of anger is my belief that I deserve the criticism, that I am bad and wrong and not good etc etc etc I’ve had so much of endless criticizing of myself all my life and fought long and hard to oppose the self hate that to have it from anyone else just pushes every button I have – a bit like, wtf can’t you see I’m barely holding off my own judge and you come along and start judging me how awful is that no wonder it makes me angry – otherwise I’d just roll over and accept every perceived criticism going and stay sunk in me-as-bad. I’m so tired of fighting myself all the time, of having to explain over and over to Ts how having my pathology pointed out to me (which I already know thank you very much) is so not helpful. Lol and half the time T is probably not criticizing at all but me perceiving it that way. This is so exhausting, even trying to explain it here I just feel despairing and desperate and so damned tired...

Oh DF if I were your English professor I’d be tempted to give you at least a silver star (if not a gold one) your thoughts are always so clearly articulated and relevant – they convey a lot of important stuff. Thank you


Hm Yaku I think I get what you mean – I’d guess that it’s so frightening for you to even think about turning that inwardly directed anger outward that your fear has turned it into a big evil monster that would destroy everything and everyone? I’m kind of in reverse – I’m not afraid of my own anger, but I’m absolutely terrorized by the consequences of expressing it – namely, withdrawal, rejection, judgement and punishment (not to mention actual physical reprisals...)

For the first ten years after a horrendously traumatic incident I experienced no anger at all, just stayed sunk in a permanent state of mea culpa, self judgement and self blame – everything negative was always my fault, I deserved all the bad etc etc (and I believed everyone saw me this way too...) After ten years I started getting a bit suspicious about this set up, how come I was always to blame and no-one else ever was type of thinking, and gradually started to teach myself to be angry, well more in the sense of inspecting everything that was going on to try and prove to myself that actually I can’t be as bad as I believe, there’s got to be a trick or a con or a monumental error in there somewhere. So I sort of got used to being aware of feeling pretty much permanently defensively angry, on a low level scale... but never found ‘permission’ in the external world to justify it or express it. Sometimes I wish I never discovered how to be angry, it’s just screwed everything up. But then I figure having had it denied and treated as something fundamentally evil about me in the distant past (well and subsequently too, society is very good at demonising anger) and knowing that it’s one of the four primary emotions (lol I read that somewhere) I will not sell myself out ever again, no matter how much crap my anger causes me. Lol that’s an angry little stomp foot act of rebellion...


Stoppers how does your T respond when you go in and say that? I’d have thought the very fact that you are aware of your motives like that and are able to say so, means you have a pretty good insight into what’s going on. Are you able to work through to what’s making you feel like picking a fight? That’s where I’m at now, only just thinking about agreeing to look at what’s causing the anger.

Ok folks sorry for such a long and waffly post – this is a huge issue for me and right now with T away I’m sort of steaming around with all sorts of things coming up and no way to sort through it safely – I feel SO exposed writing all this, which is weird considering it sounds like I’m pretty rational about it all – but I don’t feel very rational at all. Going to stop here before I expose even more stuff about my set up that I’ll end up fearing could be used against me... fear and anger, anger and fear – who the hell invented such useless emotions???????


Freud (can I call you that?) or would Fly be better? I was just about to post my reply above when I saw your post – thank you for sharing that – I feel so sad reading your words, that’s so close to how I feel too. Your dog analogy says it so beautifully, that’s exactly the sense I get too, like an animal that’s been hurt so much it can’t do anything but lash out every time someone tries to get close, yet desperately wants someone to feed it all the same.

quote:

I have to take things away and have them when I'm alone at night most times.

Oh wow this is so what I do – I can sort of let good things in sometimes but only if they come in via the backdoor so to speak, like I’ll sneakily squirrel them away and let them sit in the back of my mind as a small warm glow. But if I bring them out and try to believe them, or openly try and accept them, forget it. I’ll take them and hug them to me and keep them hidden away in the darkness, just like you describe above. That’s so evocative.

You know the fear that the kindness will be taken away, I suspect that’s going on in me too. I also fear that if I don’t accept the good stuff from T she’ll get fed up and stop offering it, yet at the same time it makes me angry too which is calculated to make her stop offering it. I’m really trapped in my own conflicts…

Sounds like you are really working hard, six years with your T is quite a commitment – and it’s so good to hear that you’re able now to start believing she can be trusted, even if just a little bit. *sigh * yeah the trust, that’s so slow to come.

LL

Lamps< you articulate your awareness really well< this will stand you well in therapy! and call me whatever you like

LL - Thanks. I think your thoughts on the topic are also really well-thought-out and expressed. My T wants me to connect with anger, so he better watch out when I do.

quote:

I understand what you're saying that having your pathology pointed out is not helpful. I don't find it helpful either - I go from whatever I am to REALLY PISSED OFF in no seconds when this happens. Especially when my T says something I'm feeling is just transference I feel like I might pop.

I agree. Luckily, I am the only one who has ever directly pointed out my transference. If I acted a certain way toward T and he went, "Oh, that seems like it's about your dad," or something, I would get very frustrated. Because, I wouldn't have had transference in a negative way if he didn't do something to trigger it. For example, I wouldn't feel abandoned by him for not returning texts if he was consistent or communicated the circumstances under which he will reply rather than just "receive" what I send him. So, while I just need to learn to deal with that, because no one always communicates with consistency, it would bug me if he said, "Oh, that's not about me," instead of just saying, "Sorry," and explaining why he was limited in that instance, like he does. One thing T does, though, is when I feel certain ways about myself, he links it to ways my mom behaved. I think what he's trying to say is, "You react strongly to any sense of being perceived as of manipulative [example], because your mom was very manipulative and threatening." And, it is so true, but when he says something like that, I hear it as, "You are manipulative, because you're like your mother." Hahaha, so I get how it can really backfire when T's point that stuff out.

LL, sorry I'm jumping in late here. I'm very appreciative for your post, as it is something I'm working through too, and while I have no words of wisdom or advice, I'm learning a lot!

quote:

It makes me sad because it means I can’t (at the moment) take in any good – if I let myself believe in the good that T gives me (or anyone else for that matter) that means I have to acknowledge I want and need that good, that means exposing to me and to the world just how needy and crap and pathetic and unlovable I am, and I’ve had a vested interest in keeping THAT well and truly hidden from everyone so it’s no wonder any hint of exposure results in a backlash of defensive anger...

Me too. Big time.

((((LL))))

Freud I think I’ll call you Freud I like the connection. Thanks for the praise.

Yaku good that your T wants you to connect with anger – means that if and when you finally are able to start expressing it, he’ll be there to take it so you will have some sense of safety and acceptance. I hope you never need to, but that’s probably wishful thinking on my part… The fact that he does apologize for genuine instances that have caused you upset or pain or irritation is great, funnily enough I can’t handle it when T apologizes to me, because it makes me feel incredibly guilty because I sort of know that it’s more about me than about her the thing I have been criticizing her for. But maybe that’s more to do with my not being able to take in good of any sort...

DF thanks again for a long and very interesting reply – your posts always make me think and often given me a different perspective, which is great.

Re the being told how you’re feeling is transference – I can see what you’re getting at with the being told whilst in the middle of the feelings themselves, like a gentle(?) nudge to try and make connections internally – but (hahahaha I always manage a ‘but’) for me, it achieves totally the opposite, always, without fail, brings me up dead (instant emotional shut down and instant leap into defensive anger) because a) I need more than anything else just to be allowed to have the feeling – and have it validated too and b) I already know intellectually every single bloody past connection there could possibly be for every single bloody feeling I experience .

The way it works for me is that I can make the connection, truly and lastingly in that internally knowing way, only if I can follow the feeling to its natural end – I have this inbuilt monitor that is always observing and looking to understand and find causes and reasons for everything I think and feel anyway – so the more I can freely go into a feeling (which is inevitably transference, being paranoid I am very familiar with projection and transference lol even before I knew the labels for them) the more I get that inner sense of recognition.

Classic example - when I was seeing psychoT and one day while I was sitting there complaining about his not getting me, his not understanding what I had been spending umpteen sessions trying to explain to him about what I needed and wanted from therapy suddenly I had this flash of his being my father, not in reality, just this internal memory of feeling very similar in dealings with my father – and knew immediately that I was experiencing psychoT in the same way I experienced my father, and realized that it wasn’t what psychoT was or wasn’t doing, but a whole load of stuff in me... all sorts of things fell into place with that experience that no amount of intellectualising or T pointing out or asking what I’m ‘really’ feeling about etc etc could have achieved. Being able to fully feel the feeling and keep going with it is crucial for me to get to that internal experiential recognition and it thoroughly pisses me off if a T tries to divert it or redirect it or get me to think about what it ‘really’ means because it actually stops me from being able to make the connection.

In the case of anger (which is why it’s so important to me to be allowed to express it) it nearly always leads me to unmet needs/wants/expectations in me, if I were able to keep going with it (and whatever subsequent feelings that emerged) I’d end up with that internal connection to who it was in the first place from whom I wanted these things and didn’t get them... that’s just the way it works in me. So being blocked from freely and spontaneously expressing angry FEELINGS (as opposed to the rational and reasonable approach of talking ABOUT feeling angry) effectively blocks me from making those important healing connections. As you say, you have to be IN the feeling for it to have the necessary impact, afterwards it just goes all intellectual and nothing changes… Grrr I’ve just pissed myself off again at T for refusing to allow me to do that grrrr and double grrrrrrrrrrrr.

Hm having said that, what you write in the second to last paragraph makes total sense too. Because the feeling is still there and as it’s pretty obvious to me that my anger is 99% defensive, I can see that it would be possible to short cut the whole having to express anger thing and go straight for the feelings underneath (which is what my T has been trying to do all along, and said so.) I guess I’m still in the phase that you nicely describe, where I perceive her as saying, you’re a failure and what you feel isn’t real (or more to the point, you’re bad and wrong and what you feel is incorrect and bad and unacceptable.) God I hate this paranoid crap I have to live with, uses up too many brain cells just trying to work out how much of what I perceive is my own madness and how much could be real...

Still, the whole idea of changing gears and looking at the same thing in a different way does make sense, fighting the status quo is SO hard though.

Hm I see I’ve gone on and on again, sorry about that – for some reason I seem to be in tell the whole world everything mode

R2G can I give you a big cyber hug (((((((((((( Room2Grow ))))))) it makes me sad to think that you have the same set up as me with taking in good, that it keys into the core experience of being unlovable – it’s hell, absolute hell to have to live with that it’s simply not possible to be in touch with it or even have it in awareness – but knowing it’s there at the bottom of everything poisons everything – so many defences needed to keep that experience of self as unlovable (unwantable, unlikeable, unacceptable) at bay. Hey you don’t need to give advice or words of wisdom, sharing your own experience and thoughts would be infinitely precious (besides I’d give a lot to hear other people’s stories who have a similar set up to me, I feel so alien and alone so much of the time ) so thanks for your post, I really appreciate it.

LL

Freud, DF, R2G...are you all sure we weren't somehow siblings separated at birth? There is so much in your posts I relate to that I might as well have written them myself. (((hugs)))

Interrupted processing certainly does feel like dismissal and invalidation to me too. Both T and H have been bumping into that obstacle with me lately. Even when what they say isn't "wrong," and even when they are saying something I have known intellectually for a long time, I am fighting against it.

DF

quote:

Obviously there is an underlying pattern here for you where certain feedback does feel extremely dismissive (please don't hate me for saying this but.... that's probably related to your past too

Lololol how could I hate you for speaking the truth! It’s what’s so irritating about my whole set up, that it’s so clear to me that a lot of the way I react to things stems directly from automatically interpreting them in terms of past experiences – but just knowing that doesn’t seem to change anything.

Hey you’ve given me two new ‘D’ words I can apply now – first was disappointed (makes me realize I actually haven’t a clue how to label what I do feel) and now ‘dismissed’. That SO accurately defines how I feel too whenever someone says sorry in that pre-empting further accusations or complaints from me way (or so I feel anyway). The way you describe the apologies from your Ts EXACTLY fits how I feel – I didn’t realize it before but you’ve made it so clear that now I’ll be able to work out what’s going on in the moment instead of feeling like I’m the one who’s done something wrong. Yeah most of the time I don’t even want an apology, I just want to get out all the feelings and thoughts and stuff and be heard, especially as mostly I know it’s usually nothing to do with the other person anyway…so when they jump in with an apology, and a sincerely meant one at that, I just feel pissed off, muzzled, and not at all gratified about it. Dismissed, yes... I could probably oppose it and state that I want to keep going over what’s upset me, the need isn’t to get the other to see what they’ve done ‘wrong’ but just to make sense of why I’m feeling the way I do, but not if the apology is sincere – like you said happened with DBT T, it just gets really awkward.

Wow good for you for being able to ask DBT T to let you just talk while she listens. I absolutely cannot do that (which says it’s probably a good thing to try eh?) because I’m constantly looking for understanding of what I’m trying to explain so to not get feedback of some sort while I’m talking would make me feel like I’m not being heard... having said that half the time the feedback I get winds me up because it’s not EXACTLY what I’m wanting to hear – round and round I go... I like your idea though the more I think about it the more appealing it is, just to be able to vent or talk or describe something without having to stay in polite adult listen to what T says mode, yeah I can see that being really useful (I’m always trapped in being so very precise about everything I say to T, endlessly trying to make sure she’s understanding exactly what I’m trying to say, whereas just talking AT her might let me be a bit more spontaneous in just letting whatever is on my mind come out. To express rather than explain. Hm… yeah I’m taken with that idea... thanks DF!

Could you ask your T to revert to the way she was letting you work stuff out for yourself instead of pushing the transference stuff unsympathetically? I imagine that the longer a T and client are together and the more intimate and trusting the relationship gets, the more T would feel safer to push the issue – I know if I weren’t comfortable with that it would be a problem (lol just about EVERYTHING is a problem to me though.) Hugs to you DF ((((( Deepfried ))))))

Yaku I like the way you have a label for this ‘interrupted processing’ that’s exactly what it is isn’t it? You’d think Ts at least would be wise to it. Hugs to you too. (((( Yaku )))

LL

I often become angry because I do not understand the process of therapy and do not know what is really going on. What does it look like, how will I know if it is working, and what am I supposed to do or what is the next step, when to end it, etc. It drives me crazy and when I ask, T says to trust her, which about causes my head to explode.

I have been very angry with T2 lately. So much so that it has become comical and I find myself laughing at myself when I get angry with her. It's totally due to maternal transference. All that anger towards my mother...poor T2 is getting the brunt of that now.

Today I had a good chuckle with T2 because she was recalling something that happened between us last week and she was trying to recall the details and she says, "Wait...what was it that you were mad at me last week for?" and we both had to laugh because I have been so pissed at her lately that she was getting it all confused. I said, "GAY. I was mad at the Gay thing". and she says, "Oh yes..or wait, was that the time before last?" and again we laughed.

Oh....how funny anger can be in retrospect.

Hi LL.... sorry I'm very late to your thread. I'm glad to see you posting again yet sorry you find yourself in this place of anger and confusion and dissatisfaction with therapy and T. I, too, have certainly felt some anger but mostly I re-direct it into myself even when it's clearly the other person's fault. This is something my T is working with me on with regard to oldT. I have also been angry at newT for basically nothing more than him not being oldT and that I had to talk to him instead.

You say you are not bothered by T going on holiday yet you do seem angry with her for some reason and I wonder if you are just finding it hard to accept tbat you feel abandoned when she leaves you for vacation so it's safer to feel the anger than the hurt.

When you speak of other times in therapy and the feelings that come up when you need to ask for something. I wonder if there is some shame mixing in there. Shame at having needs and wanting to get them met. Anger is more familiar and easier to understand than Shame.

I am feeling out of sorts over the past few days with my T. Some of it verges on anger, yet he has done nothing to deserve it. So I am thinking that he has triggered some negative transference for some reason. I need to look more closely at this. I may be feeling that he has gotten too close and am pushing him away and refusing to take in all the good he is offering to me. Maybe I think I don't deserve it or maybe I'm too afraid to allow him to get close to me. I'm not sure. Anger can be really complicated.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you and glad to see you posting here again. I hope things work out with your T.

TN

Stoppers it sounds like you’re struggling with a lot of confusion and frustration about therapy. Have to say it would drive me crazy if a T explained nothing but just said ‘trust me’. You’re kidding right!!!!!!!!!! But it would also depend on whether I had a sense that the T knew what they were doing. Maybe you could open up a conversation with your T about just how much it would be helpful to you to have some idea of what was meant to be happening in therapy? Maybe even tell her how angry it sometimes makes you? It’s not uncommon for Ts to explain their approach and how it works, so you’re not asking for something beyond the pale. I hope you can get some sense soon of where your therapy is going

LadyGrey hey that’s great that you can laugh about it afterwards. That says to me that you are pretty comfortable with having angry feelings and don’t beat yourself up for having expressed them. Way to go!

TN you are right on several counts! Yes it’s so much easier to feel anger than other needier and vulnerable feelings, it’s my default position to the point where I’m not really even aware of the other feelings (unless I go digging for them get a glimpse of them and panic and jump straight back into defensive anger.) It’s one of the first things T said to me when we started, that it seemed easier for me to feel anger than anything else, and she’s made it her focus to try and get to those other feelings. Something I find almost impossible to do.

And shame yes,

quote:

Shame at having needs and wanting to get them met

Absolutely! Only I don’t really understand shame, or most feelings for that matter, but I’m guessing that it’s playing a big part in my defensiveness, along with other things like catatonic fear that just overrides everything. The only way I can deal with fear is by invoking its opposite – anger. I live in a state of permanent opposition between these two feelings. So between fear and anger other stuff doesn’t get much of a look in. I am amazed at how open people on this forum are, how in touch with those needier hurting feelings you are and how unafraid you are to show them, both here and in therapy. It gives me inspiration and hope that one day I’ll be able to do that too.

Lol going to be subversive here and make a suggestion that if you’re feeling out of sorts with T (and quite rightly looking to your own motives and fears and feelings as to why) that instead of puzzling it over or trying to get to the real reason, that you openly express that feeling to him? I would be very surprised if you didn’t harbour a lot of anger about a lot of different things as a result of OldT’s vile treatment of you, including stuff that you probably think is unreasonable (like you’ve listed; that NewT has gotten too close, or that you feel you don’t deserve his good – which in my case would emerge as anger at him for making me aware of feeling that I don’t deserve...) It’s just a thought, based on my experience that the reasons and motives behind my feelings become much clearer and have greater healing impact when I am IN the feeling itself and can track what’s going on intuitively. oh I’m on my soapbox now I’d better get off.

Thanks everyone for your continued support and kind words, I so appreciate it.

LL

Argh DF I missed replying to your post, sorry! I like your ideas about just being able to vent - at the moment I don't have out of session contact with my T (and not sure that I particularly want it, it just seems SO fraught a thing for me to do). I really like your DBT T, she sounds right on the ball lol and I love that your T also swears - it would be really difficult for me to express myself spontaneously without MANY MANY swear words involved, I'm not sure where my T stands on swearing, I suspect she doesn't go in for it much...

Maybe I'll follow my own advice (lol which I've given you in another thread) and ASK for her to just listen while I rant. That would be a big thing for me to do.

Wow I can't help but really admire the way you go about your therapy - you seem to know exactly what is helpful and what is not and are able to go ahead and do something despite your defences and ambivalence about it. You are my inspiration! Thanks for all your wonderful support here (((((( DF )))))))

LL

Hi Lamplighter!! It's SO good to hear from you and to know how your therapy is going. I've missed you.

I couldn't have read your initial post in this thread at a better time. What you describe sounds VERY much like what my T has been trying to tell me she sees me doing. Just today she said it again, more directly than she ever has. And it has been very frustrating to hear her say these things and not understand what she means.

Your first post helps me to understand it better. I say your first post because I just don't have the focus right now to read the rest of the thread or respond much...but I did want to reassure you, you are definitely not the only one doing this. The only difference is, I experience this anger when I make myself vulnerable with my husband, and not so much my T, although I think she's seeing me do it with her, too. But it's REALLY obvious with my husband, and getting worse because those needs are NOT getting met...they are getting missed or ignored or told no...and yes, it torques me off tremendously. And my T is pointing out that it's something I need to look at, and is it possible to experience those needs WITHOUT the anger?

My T even admitted to being somewhat afraid to bring it up like this...worried that it might trigger some anger in me toward her...which it did, more like frustration and incredulity that she seems to want me to experience even MORE sadness and loss, when I already feel like I'm drowning in it...but she said she doesn't want to give in to countertransference, she wants to be real...and at the same time I am frustrated and confused, I really do appreciate that about her.

So thank you for taking the risk of putting this out there...it really helped to clarify the point my T was trying to make today, and also helped me to see how I might be using anger to protect myself. That's what my T has been saying, too, but I didn't even remotely recognize how I might be doing it until I read your account. Thank you for giving me this "boost". I hope you and your T are able to work through it, too. I will try to read through the thread more thoroughly when I'm not having such a hard time and try to respond more coherently. Good luck, and I look forward to hearing from you again.

Hugs,
SG

quote:

What suddenly struck me was that there was a direct connection between relating to T – exposing my issues, trying to express my painful feelings, feeling that she was on my side and there for me – and the sudden emergence of angry feelings. It really was so obvious that the moment I reached out, or wanted something, or even got something, anger kicked in big time. It was like I was unconsciously focusing on the negatives, looking for bad stuff to justify feeling angry (without knowing I was doing that) when really I was angry out of sheer defensiveness, at having had my weakness, my pain, my needs, my vulnerability exposed – wow I never knew how dangerous that feels to me.

Hi LL. I really liked your post. I have been thinking about it for a few days, but like SG I am having trouble focusing so am just now getting around to commenting. Like you, I've felt a LOT of anger directed at my T over the past 2 years, usually following times of exposure or closeness. I've written about some events here which some posters think was justified anger. Maybe so. But I can see now that most of my anger has been manufactured in my mind as an automatic defense. Subconsciously, I search for any reason to get mad and push T away because exposing my needs and flaws feels so threatening.

My T says there is always sadness or fear underlying anger, and that is what she tries to get to. Anger feels more powerful than sadness or fear, which is why for many of us it become the default setting, so to speak. It's easier to want to feel a sense of control and use anger to deny what isn't in our control. The switch to anger from initial feelings of fear or sadness can be so quick that we never even realize it happened. It's our super-sensitive, well-honed fight or flight response. I think our anger is both the "fight" and the "flight". The problem is that some of us have developed the skill so well that we end up protecting ourselves into a cocoon of aloneness. We may be safe that way, but we are not really living a meaningful life.

Hi there, MH! I've been wondering how things are going with your T. I've missed you, too.

My T agrees with your T when it comes to sadness or fear underlying the anger.

quote:

The switch to anger from initial feelings of fear or sadness can be so quick that we never even realize it happened.

I think this is exactly what my T was trying to get me to see yesterday. It sounded to me like she said she'd like me to "feel the fear and/or sadness or pain MORE" and of course I looked at her like she was nuts. Now I realize, from what you are saying MH, she was really saying to slow down and stop short of the anger.

And the woman is brave...can you imagine telling that to someone who is unconsciously using rage as a defense? She even admitted to feeling some fear about telling me that, some fear that I might get angry at her, but she didn't want to give in to any possible countertransference. It's like telling someone who's angrily waving a loaded gun around, hey let's put that gun down and just be vulnerable.

I still don't know if I can do it...but at least after reading this, I have a better idea of what she was talking about. Thank you!!

SG

SG, I'm honored that something I wrote was remotely helpful. Thanks for letting me know it, and for missing me too!

Strummergirl!!!!!!!!!! So nice to see you back here, it’s been a loooong time since I’ve read a post by you. Though I’m sorry to hear the reasons you haven’t been around so much

I’m glad my ramblings about anger have been useful for you (and MH too!) It’s something I’m constantly struggling with, so it’s good to hear how other people perceive and understand the dynamics of anger too.

quote:

and is it possible to experience those needs WITHOUT the anger?

Your T has posed a good question SG, though I interpret it less as a genuine question on her part and more as being one of those less than honest questions which is telling you the expected answer in the question itself (ie yes).

SG why was your T worried that what she said might trigger anger in you towards her? Does that mean she doesn’t accept anger at her, and that if you did show anger at her that would result in countertransference on her part (ie feeling negative towards you?) Or was she simply recognizing that you’d feel misunderstood and alienated by her comments and was letting you know she didn’t mean to challenge or provoke you?

Where all this revealing underlying needs and wants gets hairy I reckon, is when the wants are to do with trying to get directly from T in the first place (which may or may not be transference, that’s something that I think can only be recognized in the feeling itself).

For instance one clear example for me was agreeing with T to drive in to therapy one morning not smoking on the way in (I usually have about five fags in my mouth at any one time ) to see how that affected how I felt. Well I managed it (a one and a half hour drive) and told her I’d done it. (Resentment #1 – she didn’t ask). She asked whether I felt any different, I said no and she seemed totally uninterested and dropped the subject. (Resentment #2 – why didn’t she want to talk more about it, it MATTERED to me how I felt ABOUT it, even if I felt no different for having done it.) Subsequently in my usual what the hell am I angry about this session processing afterwards I came up with resentment #3 – I really wanted praise for having done something that was difficult for me, that SHE had suggested in the first place, and that I’d done more or less to please her, to show her that I COULD do it. And then I chucked in resentment #4 – how come I have to ASK for praise in the first place... and so on. So ok this is quite a clear example of an obvious and conscious wanting on my part, mostly they’re not so accessible, and it’s highly likely I could have quite easily brought this up without feeling like I was exposing TOO much, though you can guarantee that unless she’d responded in the RIGHT way, validating that it’s ok to want praise etc etc my resentment list would have grown quicker than Pinocchio’s nose. (I did actually bring it up, but that happened to be my termination session so it became irrelevant what response she gave...) And because anger at T was unacceptable to her, I was too frightened to stop myself in each moment that a resentment niggled at me and say it, so it all ended up in a growing series of small resentments throughout each session that I didn’t really let myself be aware of until afterwards (at which point the petty resentments turned into proper anger.)

It’s one thing to bring anger about external events and people into therapy, but a whole different ball game when it’s sparked by T themselves (when T hasn’t met needs and wants that are unconsciously or semi consciously directed at T themself.) Takes a LOT of courage to bring those sorts of needs and wants out into the open, and if a T isn’t prepared to take whatever fall out happens one way or the other (eg if I had openly asked my T for praise for not smoking and she’d refused, and that natch would have put all my defensive anger on overdrive, and she’d refused to accept or at least validate that anger, that’s a pretty good reason to feel defensive and threatened in the future.) Oh if only she’d been able to non defensively accept anger at her, how healing that would have been...



MH good to hear from you too, and I’m sorry you too are in a bad place .

I remember your earlier posts where you were angry at your T – I think it’s good that you can recognize how you’re using anger as a means to control the threat to you of having your vulnerabilities exposed (I’m curious that you use the word ‘flaws’ as if you consider some of your needs/wants as not acceptable, as failures? – not arguing with that because it’s exactly how I experience my needs and wants, as flaws, as things that have to be gotten rid of, cured whatever... but hearing someone else label themselves that way makes me stop and think.) I hope that you have been able to move past that defensiveness a bit more, apart from anything else it gets really wearing having to be in angry mode all the time.



Update: Well on balance I think my anger was not misplaced, because the needs and wants I had which were not being met or even recognized and that were sparking constant resentment which turned into anger, has resulted in my finishing with current T. There’s something to be said for trying to get past the anger to exposing the needs/wants underneath, but for that the other HAS to be safe and trustworthy and able to deal with exposure of the wants in an understanding and accepting way. I’m inclined to think that the anger as defensive also functions at times as an accurate appraisal of real (psychic) danger and if a T can’t deal with the anger then chances are they’re not going to be able to deal very effectively with the underlying needs and wants either.

Lol actually I’m now going to do a complete flip flop and state categorically that no matter how insightful it can be to recognize the role anger is playing in defending underlying unmet needs, having to shut off or bypass the anger in order to reveal the needs is not (for me anyway) the healthiest thing to do. It IS extremely useful to be able to recognize the connection, but it’s not at all useful to have the anger blocked or forbidden as something unacceptable, as if only needy vulnerable feelings are ok (because non threatening to the other) and angry negative feelings are not ok. The two are inseparably linked, for me anyway, and about the only way I can get to the underlying needs is via the feeling of anger – it’s only my anger that tells me I have a need or want that I’ve been expecting or wanting to be met, in the first place.

Am going to post a separate thread about my ending with T so won’t go into that here. Just to say that anger played a key role in it.

LL

LL,

I really enjoy reading your posts and get a lot out of them. I was laughing as I read about Resentment #1, #2, #3, etc. I could so relate to this. How one resentment spirals into another and so on and so forth. I truly understand that process all too well.

LL, I'm so, so sorry to hear that this T hasn't worked out. How awful. (((((LL)))) I'm posting here instead of on the other thread because what you said below jumped out at me.

quote:

actually I’m now going to do a complete flip flop and state categorically that no matter how insightful it can be to recognize the role anger is playing in defending underlying unmet needs, having to shut off or bypass the anger in order to reveal the needs is not (for me anyway) the healthiest thing to do. It IS extremely useful to be able to recognize the connection, but it’s not at all useful to have the anger blocked or forbidden as something unacceptable, as if only needy vulnerable feelings are ok (because non threatening to the other) and angry negative feelings are not ok.

You know what strikes me here? It's that nobody none of your t's seems to be recognizing your anger as a coping mechanism. Let me explain. Ok-we all have coping mechanisms and defenses, right? So- I've come to understand that if any T just says to "stop it" when it comes to our coping mechanisms and defenses, we will not easily be able to move past it and stop using them in therapy, right? I think what a lot of T's do is to validate the coping mechanism, state that it's doing a good job protecting you in the past, and help you to move past it if it has become something unhealthy that is damaging in relationships or too yourself, whatever. But- skipping directly into- "this is bad, just stop using it" rarely works. So- what if anger is your primary coping mechanism? Then yeah- it would need to be validated and accepted as doing a good job. And then gently, you could be helped to move past it *when you make the decision to do so* just like any other coping mechanism. does that make any sense? I guess it's probably fairly obvious, but I just wonder if T's fail to recognize anger in that way... if it's like any other "addiction" then it would have to be treated the same way, it seems to me. Gently and with understanding and compassion- firmness- acceptance- non-defensively- It just seems so obvious to me. If I tell my little girl that her anger at me is not ok- guess where I get? Nowhere. Talk to any parent, and you'll find the same thing. idk... I hope this doesn't sound too awful. I just think that why is it SO bad to be angry and to express anger in therapy?? I truly, honestly do NOT get it. It's like a T telling a client "just don't come here unless you don't have problems. I only accept clients who are problem-free and functioning healthily in their relationships." wtf? How about teaching us how and when to use anger appropriately, by pointing things out gently to us while they are happening? wtf? Is that so hard?

I'm sorry- I understand what you are going through because I'm dealing with it too, with my T. arrrrrGGGG!!!

sending loads of sympathy and wishes for healing. You remind of of my kidlet- she has a fierce temper, but it is all related to getting her needs met- she responds by letting go of the anger and telling me what she needs- *only* when I am first able to tell her that I know why she is really angry with mommy, tell her that I understand what I did that made her angry- and that she has a right to be angry with me because I really have failed her so many times- and offer her genuine sympathy and understanding about the anger she rightly feels towards me. When I respond any other way- she just gets angrier. Her anger absolutely needs to be heard and understood and said back to her, in a way that takes the blame on myself. Hard to do as a parent- sure- but T's get *paid* to teach us this stuff. I truly do not get it. Why will they not do their job, and teach us how to manage our more childish emotions and contain them? Why? Because it requires one very painful thing from *them.* Humility. And a willingness to honestly admit to the limitations of their profession and of their own abilities, and sympathize with us for the pain they cause us, instead of pretending that their therapy is a panacea that will heal us because they are so gifted. Or making us take the blame as being too bad wrong or broken for their therapy not working as effectively as *they* actually need it to- in order to move on and feel good about themselves? grr. Ends up being a re-enactment for many of us whose parents never accepted our anger at not having our needs met, but instead punished and or ignored our screaming and made us the "wrong one, bad one" for it. We could only ever hope to be the "good child" if we humbly accepted their neglect or abuse without any complaint or crying. And I think very rightly, you react against that kind of reenactment. You should be allowed and encouraged to express all of your painful feelings in therapy, whether directed against the therapist or not. Period.

BB

ps- sorry I edited a lot as I am prone to doing. Original post probably unrecognizable..

I recently myself whilst trying to talk about the anger I was feeling to T realized that the anger actually was preventing me from having to feel the hurt of rejection/shame..T had taken her easter break, and yet again I felt that inflated sense of entitlement that she shouldn't leave me blah blah blah and as I spoke to her about how silly I feel having these feelings, her gentle acceptance of them versus my own critical assessment of them allowed me to actually see underneath the anger and there is a whole pot of deep deep hurt there...so yes we must be able to talk about our anger and have it met sympathetically

DF thanks and hugs right back to you ((((( DF )))))

LG thanks and it’s good to hear you get how that process works – I amaze myself sometimes when I track backwards to find out how I end up in such an angry state and can see how small and relatively unimportant (relatively!) the initial resentments are. What complicates it is that each individual resentment carries a whole world of past unexpressed resentments with it, so while I can see how the depth of my anger is legitimate and understandable, others seem quite stunned at how ‘out of proportion’ it seems. So I end up in a shitfight trying to justify why I feel SO resentful or angry when it’s apparent to others that it’s not that big a deal…

BB thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such depth. You’ve said some important things, that make me feel a WHOLE lot better about the whole T termination thing and is helping me put the string of failed therapies I’ve been in into some sort of perspective. The way you explain it, it seems self evident doesn’t it? Kind of glaringly obvious. Anger as a coping mechanism, a defence, something vital to emotional survival – that’s certainly what it is for me. I don’t ever actually want to hurt anyone, that’s not the motive behind it (though there are times I’d quite cheerfully smash someone’s face in for the way they speak to me or treat me – but that’s rare, and not something I would ever DARE even contemplate doing…) It does amaze me that most of the Ts I’ve seen haven’t cottoned on to this, surely psychology 101 has something about the causes and manifestations and reasons for anger???? The ‘this is bad, stop doing it’ approach most certainly is unhelpful at the least, and can be very destructive.

quote:

It's like a T telling a client "just don't come here unless you don't have problems. I only accept clients who are problem-free and functioning healthily in their relationships.

Lol this is exactly how I’ve felt after seeing some of the Ts I had, and actually, is a bit how I felt with latest T – like I already had to be in a reasonably healthily functioning position in order for them to help me, yet if I were able to do what they demanded already I wouldn’t bloody well need to be in therapy in the first place.

I’m sorry you are in a similar place with your T. Once upon a time lol, when I first started seeing this latest round of Ts, I had this blind assumption that all Ts were comfortable with and knew how to deal with all feelings, and that ‘all’ a client had to do was keep being brave enough to go into T and tell them what they were feeling, about everything, that all the fears and anticipations and problems were all in the client’s mind and that the T would be consistent, understanding, accepting and do their best to help client understand and modify their perceptions and stuck patterns. So I’d give advice like, oh just go in and tell your T about it, that’s the best thing to do, because I genuinely believed it was. Hahahahahahaha well I know better now. This is no longer just talking about Ts being human and not perfect and making mistakes. I’m beginning to think there’s a general misconception about what exactly therapy is supposed to achieve – I’m also beginning to think that rather a lot of therapy (or maybe therapists) really is geared to and can only be effective with clients who more or less are in a reasonably healthy functioning state in the first place.

quote:

it requires one very painful thing from *them.* Humility. And a willingness to honestly admit to the limitations of their profession and of their own abilities, and sympathize with us for the pain they cause us, instead of pretending that their therapy is a panacea that will heal us because they are so gifted. Or making us take the blame as being too bad wrong or broken for their therapy not working as effectively as *they* actually need it to- in order to move on and feel good about themselves? grr. Ends up being a re-enactment for many of us whose parents never accepted our anger at not having our needs met, but instead punished and or ignored our screaming and made us the "wrong one, bad one" for it. We could only ever hope to be the "good child" if we humbly accepted their neglect or abuse without any complaint or crying.

Wow you said so much here of how I feel about all this that I had to quote the whole lot! Bravo! LL applauds very loudly!!!!! I especially like your comment about expecting us to take the blame when their therapy is not working like they expect it to – it just makes so much sense to me that if a T is struggling with a client’s problems, that’s an indication of their capabilities and limitations and I do find that this get out clause they have, of feeling unable to help and ethically being bound to pass the client on, is in many ways a cop out. I liken it to teaching, if some kid doesn’t get it, that’s an indictment of me and my teaching skills, not an indication that the kid is stupid or doesn’t want to learn and it’s down to me to try and try and try to get that kid to learn, to go off and learn more about how to teach, and specifically special needs kids – the ones with the most problems with learning. How would it be if I said, sorry kid I can’t help you, my limitations as a teacher preclude that, but I hope you can find another teacher who better suits your needs!!!!! Ok the analogy breaks down a little in that maybe if I am a teacher in a particular subject I’d have real problems trying to teach a different subject as effectively – but it does hold true in that if I had children in my care who required teaching in that other subject, I’d go off and learn as much as I could about it in order TO help them… and anyway in teaching my feelings and needs and dislike and antipathy and failings are my problem, not the kids’. The sole reason I am there is to teach them, they are the focus of my being all the time I’m in the classroom with them… I expect the same from a T.

I also SO get what you are saying about having had parents who made it so that the only way to get good, to be experienced as good, was to make no complaint about anything, to sit dumbly and patiently waiting for the odd crumb (and having to be grateful for that crumb too as well!) – so this might be re-enactment and repeating patterns, but that’s exactly what I’ve always assumed a T would be attuned to pick up on… grrr can I chime in with your grrrrrrs too?

Wow your kidlet is one lucky daughter to have a mother who appreciates and understands and is so willing (and able!) to deal so well with her angry feelings. You know there are a lot of parents who wouldn’t care whether it made their children angrier, they’d still do the ‘don’t you dare speak to me like that’ spiel. As you see with your own daughter, (and maybe with yourself as well?) that stuffing someone’s angry feelings only makes them go underground, where they turn into big black destructive monsters… so good for you for being so astute and caring with kidlet

Thank you for this honest post Beebs, and thank you for your obvious support of me, I really really appreciate it.

LL

p.s. Freud I just posted this when I saw your post. Thanks for your comments - and also for explaining what was going on in you - it sounds like your T has the right approach that makes it safe for you to experience the angry feelings that let you get to the pain underneath. I'm a bit curious though about your using the words 'inflated sense of entitlement' - I read that as negative, as if you are criticizing yourself for feeling that way? Or am I completely misreading what you've said?

quote:

LG thanks and it’s good to hear you get how that process works – I amaze myself sometimes when I track backwards to find out how I end up in such an angry state and can see how small and relatively unimportant (relatively!) the initial resentments are. What complicates it is that each individual resentment carries a whole world of past unexpressed resentments with it, so while I can see how the depth of my anger is legitimate and understandable, others seem quite stunned at how ‘out of proportion’ it seems. So I end up in a shitfight trying to justify why I feel SO resentful or angry when it’s apparent to others that it’s not that big a deal…

Yep. That's how it works. We all do it on some level. I was just watching the t.v. show "Survivor" recently and one of the castmates totally flipped out because someone said he was acting crazy which he interpretted to mean something along the lines of "you are black and worthless". Nobody on the show could understand how he got from point A to point Z so quickly but it was clear that a lot of past resentments played out in his mind quickly and he made a huge leap from being called "crazy" to saying that this other guy had called him the "N" word, which hadn't actually happened.

Later when it was deconstructed and he tried to explain why he was so upset, it became clear that he went from one resentment to the next to the next and so on until suddenly his reality was so distorted that he wasn't even reacting to the original thing that set him off but was having a fight about something that had happened years earlier at a store with his father.

Our mind stores these resentments and they cloud our interactions with others. Any time I am so quickly angry about something, I know I need to retrace my steps and figure out what the REAL issue was that I so upset about.

LL, I was trying to demonstrate how my anger becomes very self critical, hence my saying "inflated sense of entitlement" versus my therapists treating it with gentleness. My anger attacks me as well as others. Hope thats clearer.

Nice example LG of something I can relate to VERY well! Thanks.

Freud thanks for explaining that, I see what you meant now, sorry I misread your post.

LL