Lamplighter -
I don't have much insight to offer... I will leave that to the pros of the forum. Everyone is always so insightful and supportive. Anyway, your post really hit home for me, and I felt compelled to reply. I could have written it myself. I understand the anger/hatred and exactly what you are describing. I have just in the last 2 weeks begun to touch on this w my T so I am not sure how it will pan out. It is very painful and difficult for me to talk about, so like everything I imagine it will take a great deal of time to sort it out. Just want to let you know that I totally get it. Best of luck.

FD

I'm curious to know how you all experience your pain/defenses. Are they symptoms (anxiety, depression, panic attacks) or is it all straight emotional pain and the avoidance of emotional pain via various deflections, etc.

Thanks,
Russ

quote:

My take on this is coming from the perspective of how I process from this same place so please take it with a grain of salt. I have similar core beliefs (I am bad, unworthy, unlovable, wrong etc.). In the past, since my abuse came from those that were supposed to be my primary caregivers there were so many mixed messages. My very life depended on these people and yet they were the ones who were hurting me at the same time. This created (in my nervous system) a two-fold process. The need to reach out to them for my survival, but at the same time a huge defense system that would go up at the same time because I knew they weren't safe. So, now in T this same thing happens. I desperately need her to help me and be with me as I delve into this pain, but as soon as she really and truly connects with me my nervous system throws up those defenses again. It isn't something that can just be undone by talking about it and it is there for a reason. Eventually, through work with my T, my nervous system will start to regulate itself and realize gradually that those defenses don't need to be there with her, but it is a LONG process. It makes all the difference to re-experience those moments in the past in a different way and while someone is truly with you. It is through that that you will create a new experience and rewire those core beliefs.

STRM... that was very eloquently put. I agree totally with everything you wrote. You have a very good understanding of this. The first step in working through this with a T is to establish trust and safety. Without that you cannot do the necessary work/processing of the abuse and trauma. This first step takes a very long time and I think is the hardest part of therapy. People who are trauma survivors do not trust and we see the world as inherently dangerous. Then mix in disorganized attachment where you are feeling like you either want to cling to your Ts ankles or run like heck away from them and will look for any excuse to do so. It's quite terrifying to get close to someone because in the past that only brought you more pain and so your brain is screaming "danger" when anyone gets too close. Those core reactions and beliefs are so hard to change and rewire. That's why you need to do this in therapy with another person and you cannot do this yourself. The damage was done inter-relationally and it needs to be repaired the same way.

Russ, in answer to your question. When I'm experiencing those painful feelings I spiral into what I call my "black hole". I find myself in a dark place of self-hate and shame and this makes me want to isolate myself and hide from others. When I'm in this place the symptoms are depressive. But other times I'm in my sort of anxious/frantic mode and then I shake with anxiety and cannot concentrate or function very well and tend to be dissociative. I think it depends on what exactly triggers the emotional pain.

TN

TN,

Thanks for the description of your symptoms. As you know, mine are a strange mix of physical/emotional, which goes to show that there really is no difference between the mind and the body. Mine is a thick head fog that feels like a suffocating fear. Yours sound just as detestable.

TN and STRM,

Tell me if this sounds like disorganized attachment. I am, literally, unable to enter into a relationship with a woman when that woman is actually offering a real, authentic and adult partnership. Not only that, but if I have real, actual feelings for this woman, then I can't let go, either. I can't go forward, and I can't walk away. Either action brings on the wretched symptoms and I feel like I'm going to die. And oh, I also can't get angry at or risk hurting the feelings of the woman. If there's a risk of either, it also brings on the wretchedness.

The core belief thing. Man, it's so true. It's like our parents left a bomb in a room and walked away, and now we have to rebuild the room, but build it differently, without any plans.

Russ

STRM,

You make perfect sense! May I ask how long you've been addressing your issues in therapy? I've been at it now for just over 2 years, still struggling. My stretches of feeling more or less OK are getting longer, and I'm not scared to death of my parents anymore, but the periods when the conflict is triggered, resulting in symptoms, can still last weeks, and it's f-ing horrible.

quote:

Then there is the anxiety and panic which gets set off when I do get connected with someone. I can tolerate the connection for varying amounts of time (sometimes as little as seconds and sometimes longer), but then the panic/anxiety sets in and my brain freaks out and screams "danger!" and then I retreat.

The description of your bind might as well be mine. When I find myself in that place of actual connection with a woman (a woman who's saying, 'Here I am. I'm interested in YOU, and I'm interested in entering into a real thing with you...us, two ADULTS working at a partnership with everything that entails. Let's go!'). when I'm in that place, I feel like a child who's walked into a room full of adults doing adult things, and I feel like I'm not supposed to be there, like I'm not "old enough" to be in the room and do adult things. Then that fear kicks in to high gear. I don't want to be in an adult relationship. I want to be in a child-like relationship, where my needs are met and I don't have to meet the other's needs.

So it sounds like you and TN get that feeling when you're in a place of connection: "I don't belong here. This place scares me. I have to get out NOW before something awful happens."

Russ

STRM,

I go three times a week, and have been for just over two years. It's good to hear I'm not alone in seeing a T multiple times per week.

Russ

STRM,

Like most, I started out once a week, but I was in such an awful state that my T suggested twice a week. I then requested 3 times a week and he agreed. I can only describe my psychological breakdown as a feeling of overwhelming, unrelenting and indescribable terror and despair. I still can't believe I made it to work every day. I have no idea how I did it.

I'm starting to see now that what happened back in May of 2008 was that my emotional house of cards - taped together as a coping response to having never formed a healthy connection with my mother from which to construct a real self - completely collapsed. It had been creaking and cracking for about 20 years, and finally at 3am on May 15, kaboom.

I hope it doesn't take either of us 10 years to reach a state of wellness. Here's the steady progress and improvement.

Russ

STRM I'm glad you found a trauma specialist. There are not too many of them around. At least around where I am. My T had no training in trauma and attachment and I sort of diagnosed myself through reading tons of research material on the subjects. My T is now working to get up to speed on these issues and our learning and growing together has been a really important aspect of the trust building and the relationship. STRM, do you know of the work of John Briere? He is an amazing complex PTSD researcher and gifted speaker and writer. He is the most often cited researcher of trauma in professional papers. I have his 12 hr CD seminar on Complex trauma that was just fascinating.

Anyway, I sometimes have more than one session in a week. Sometimes I have a half session a few days after the first session as things can get really difficult for me. I wish I could go more often but financially it would be very difficult. Aside from that I can email and usually do that once a week to check in. My T is very generous to allow this.

TN

I guess that all means ‘or not?’ then lol.

STRM and FD thanks for replying to what I’d said. FD I hope you can get to the point where you’re able to post more about what’s going on for you (sounds like we could compare notes!)

STRM and TN thanks for your descriptions of the push/pull dynamic. I think I must be the complete opposite my drive is to actually experience that bottom line pain/me-as-bad set up to kind of ‘confess’ it in order to get the relief of being accepted as being truly me. If someone even came close to connecting with me enough to allow that to happen I’d not only not run a mile I’d be desperate for more and more and more! I’m pretty quick to trust people but so far (especially with Ts) none of them have shown that they have even a tiny glimmer of understanding of what my issues are so it’s pretty hard to keep trusting when someone is reading from a different book. STRM you are so lucky to have a T who not only knows what she’s doing and what’s happening with you, but who is so available to you as well. (I’d even have 5 sessions a week if there were a T willing to do it.)

I guess I was hoping to see if anyone else got the self-perpetuating cycle I was trying to explain - that the start and end point is pain (whatever that might mean to people I don’t really know what to call it those bottom line black feelings pain just seems the most useful word to use). That everything else stems from that - and that I’ve always made the assumption that the neediness causes the pain and realized that actually that’s not so there’s a distinct separation between being in pain and being needy. So I’ve spun round and round for years shuttling between neediness and powerless rage and been unable to see or get to the pain underneath it all yet at the same time been obscurely aware that if only I could get in touch with tears for myself everything will fall into place. It’s like I’ve just glimpsed the way out, that it’s not necessary to get the needs met in order to undo the pain (well I think so anyway) EXCEPT that it IS imperative there be someone caring and understanding there to take me to the pain, to let me experience the pain as just that - pain - instead of all the bad things about me that the feelings of pain make me experience. The relational thing TN that you mention.

Anyway it’s pretty obvious I’m lightyears behind the rest of you in terms of finding that someone - can’t really relate to what you guys are talking about because I’ve never experienced anyone actually willing to connect with me on any kind of emotional level - whenever I fool myself into thinking someone does I pretty quickly get the message that I’m wrong in big capital letters.

STRM thanks for the well wishes about finding myself a new T - it’s still a work in progress though I wouldn’t actually call it progress at the moment.

LL

quote:

I guess that all means ‘or not?’ then lol.

{{{{{{Lamplighter}}}}}}
I'm sorry you didn't feel heard, LL. And I'm sorry I haven't been around much lately, and when I have, my concentration hasn't been very good - that homework between me and my husband lasted all of about four or five days, and then we hit "the wall" and now it's back to the same old, same old. And our next appt isn't till end of July because the T is on vacation for a month. So I've been feeling discouraged and kind of frantic, like what is the point. Anyway enough about that...

I read again very carefully what you wrote, and it resonated very strongly with me, especially this:

quote:

That quite simply I want to be able to experience the pain - which to me is my core innocent how could anyone not be moved by this pain self - in a safe place with a safe and caring person.

quote:

But I can’t do that alone because my experience of my own pain is my experience of me-as-bad (can’t get, can’t be liked loved wanted, am unacceptable not good enough too bad to belong in the real world you get the picture) so experiencing that core pain by myself just reinforces how I experience my own self as bad and unacceptable and undeserving. That’s why I’m so desperate to find a therapist who can see that pain under and in everything about me, can safely guide me to get in touch with it and to BE THERE with me while I feel it. That way I get to feel the unutterable pain of total isolation and alienation and ‘badness’ knowing I am NOT isolated or alienated or bad because there is someone there with me.

quote:

It’s like I’ve just glimpsed the way out, that it’s not necessary to get the needs met in order to undo the pain (well I think so anyway) EXCEPT that it IS imperative there be someone caring and understanding there to take me to the pain, to let me experience the pain as just that - pain - instead of all the bad things about me that the feelings of pain make me experience.

I'm sorry if I'm getting this wrong but it sounds very much like you are describing the process of grieving (and the anger that goes with it) that AG has described in many of her posts. What she has described is exactly what I'm trying to get to, too, only I'm not there yet so I can only refer to what she has described. I didn't have time to research very many of her posts (there are a LOT of them! LOL! ) but here are a couple that stood out to me as describing the anger and grieving with a "caring other":

Grieving in the present about the past

Intense, but really good, session with my T

For me the details are different just like with you but the process we are looking for is the same, I think. For me the trigger was running into the ex-BF I never "got over" and I'm quite sure all my parental crap got wrapped up in him (because I pretty much feel nothing for my parents, even though I "should"). Through all the writing I did in 2008 one thing that came out is I wished someone would just listen to my thoughts and feelings about him without judging me or shutting me down, that if I had that safe space in which to do that, everything would "fall into place" like you said and I would finally "get over it" and heal. Only I don't think now that it will be quite that "neat" - as I said, I think my parental stuff is all wrapped up in that too - but the point is, having that safe space to grieve or rage or whatever, grieve "the losses" as AG puts it, will stop the endless "spinning" and "circling", the "self-perpetuating cycle" you described so well. It is the "way out" even though we DON'T get what we wanted. In grieving that, we get to acceptance...and the paradox of that is, in accepting what we didn't get then, we can learn how to get what we need now, because the cycle is broken.

At least I think that's how it works Like I said I'm not there yet, only starting. So I hope some of this helps, and I hope I haven't missed your point entirely, it really does seem like we're talking about the same thing in our own ways. And I wanted to say too, I've read your posts describing your anger and rage, and there was so much there I could relate too...and I loved Jones' visual of you on the sailboat navigating a stormy ocean...not that I love the fact that you are feeling such powerful rage, of course...but that you are so aware of it and can express it so well. I'm light years behind you in that respect...the rage in me is very frightening and messy and most of it is still hiding away. I hope it doesn't hurt for me to say this, but you have no idea how much I wish I could send you to my T!!! She would LOVE to be with you and care for you while you experience that pain, so you can heal. It is the heart of what she does, and I think she must be getting frustrated with me because I keep shying away from it (but she doesn't let it show). You are so READY to go there...in fact you ARE there...and I SO much wish you could find that T. If you are ever planning a trip to the midwest, let me know...we will hook up and I will take you to her myself!!!

BIG hugs,
SG

Oh Strummergirl thanks so much for coming on just to talk to me - I so appreciate that not least because what you say always speaks directly to me - I always find comfort in your words.

Now that’s an interesting idea - grief. I really don’t have names for most of the stuff I feel and the pain I don’t know maybe it is grief? But it’s not like I’ve got specific things that spark the pain it’s just a big entity sitting there all by itself not really related to anything or anyone specific. It’s more of a ‘this is my permanent state’ type of feeling and I’ve finally started to see that I don’t actually need a specific memory or incident to connect it to. Maybe if I ever find the freedom to go into it all sorts of connections will come up - especially about the past and then maybe I’ll recognize it as loss and grief. I really haven’t a clue, I just get the sense it’s a whole lot deeper than ‘simple’ grief.

Thanks for posting the links to AG’s threads. Lol yeah there are a lot of them and I have to say I’ve read every single one. I am SO envious of her for having such an amazing T. The ones you posted I remember reading them and the thing that struck me again, like the first time I read them, was the major role her T played in it all. Like you said:

quote:

Through all the writing I did in 2008 one thing that came out is I wished someone would just listen to my thoughts and feelings about him without judging me or shutting me down, that if I had that safe space in which to do that, everything would "fall into place" like you said and I would finally "get over it" and heal. Only I don't think now that it will be quite that "neat" -

Exactly how I feel about my set up - it all sounds so straightforward and simple that’s how I viewed going into therapy in the first place but what’s not so straightforward is finding that right person who will do the listening. I’ve come across too many Ts who seem to want to push me to ‘understand’ what I’m trying to express as if it’s supposed to reveal something deep and meaningful and all the time all I want is to just get the bloody feelings out never mind having to reflect back on what it all means. Worse they tend to jump in almost before I’ve started expressing something as if the whole point of therapy is not to feel but to dissect discuss understand and rationalize feelings. Argh I’m going off on a tangent again...

quote:

It is the "way out" even though we DON'T get what we wanted. In grieving that, we get to acceptance...and the paradox of that is, in accepting what we didn't get then, we can learn how to get what we need now, because the cycle is broken.

Right on! You’ve said so much better than me what I was trying to say - that the pain (grief?) and the need are two separate things but so long as the pain stays stuffed away the need just gets stronger and stronger. Breaking that cycle is the important bit.

SG I know you think you are only just starting with this whole expressing feelings business, but to be fair to yourself you’ve got a load of stuff on your plate what with your H and the rest of your life - it’s so much easier for me because I don’t have too many real life hassles so I have the luxury of being able to ‘dwell’ on my internal processes without having to shut down every day to get on with life so much. Which is why it’s so damn frustrating not being in therapy - everything has to go on hold and I end up falling back into my thinking about thinking about thinking about ways to try and sort myself.

Ah as for rage - yeah it’s very frightening isn’t it? Despite my being able to talk about it so easily doesn’t mean I can actually feel it (I mean express it I guess) - it’s a big control thing with me and I tend to feel that rage rather as defensive resentment all the time - being snappy and snarly and generally pissed off without being able to either overcome it or get it out and let it go. That’s a BIG fear in therapy - because inevitably what T says/does sparks that defensive resentment in me and it’s SO unsafe to go with it so I end up sitting on it and that blocks everything else as well. Biting the hand that feeds and all that…

Big hug to you SG I always feel so much better reading your replies.

I hope you can get back to doing your homework with H before T comes back - it must be pretty depressing that it’s petered out like that. I guess it’s life as normal until you both get another boost from seeing couples T. Damn T holidays they shouldn’t be allowed to take them!

STRM I didn’t mean to imply that you hadn’t understood what I was saying - I think I just have a problem with words or rather labels of things - everything has to be so precise for me if a word doesn’t exactly fit what I’m meaning then I don’t really understand it. But maybe we are all talking about the same thing. I really haven’t a clue at the moment getting quite lost inside my own head and losing most of the direction I had when I finished with ex-T. Thank you for replying, your posts are always so considerate and caring I appreciate your taking the time to reply to me.

Both SG and STRM it not only doesn’t bother me when you talk about how good your Ts are it actually helps me - makes me believe that yes the kind of T I’m looking for does exist and isn’t just some fantasy I’ve created in my head. Hey and SG the way I’m feeling about not finding myself a good T here you could very well be getting a knock on your door with me standing there - ‘take me to your T’ lol.

LL

Dragonfly (we crossed posts - sorry!) I’m sitting here speechless - make the most of that lol it won’t last long, and there’s a weird feeling in my throat I could cry and nearly did reading your words - not just for you and for your pain and your courage all of which are so moving, you write so movingly so straight from the heart it’s so easy to see YOU in your words - but because you’ve said EXACTLY what I’m going on about.

I won’t print out my post to take can I print yours out? You’ve said it so bloody brilliantly - and you’ve also explained so well the trouble Ts seem to have in understanding what we’re on about - yeah their instinct is to make things better, to be affirming and positive and come up with all these nice good things anything to stop us giving into the bad-me feelings which just adds to bad-me because we, well I anyway do, get the message that feeling bad-me is also bad and wrong and I shouldn’t either be feeling that way but especially shouldn’t want to...

DF I could quote your whole post it’s so relevant but am picking out a couple of bits that struck me as exactly what I’m looking to do:

quote:

after the first session of me trying it and seeing the results when I cried, mourned ,grieved, thrashed about in my own wallowing self-pity and self-loathing and that I came out of it intact .......she has let me do it ever since.

I really see you as this so brave person sticking to your guns and going ahead with expressing all those things and she got it too - I think that’s the amazing bit that she did see what you were doing and came through for you - can I add you and your T to my list of role models?

quote:

I wanted to feel that this time around I was allowed to be selfish and hurt and sulk and be freaking angry.....that I would be loved and ok at the end of those feelings.

Exactly - again! You’ve written exactly what I’m wanting - that’s precisely it, I just don’t get why Ts don’t seem to get this it strikes me as so damned obvious, so necessary.

Hey DF don’t disappear under that rock - I could listen to what you have to say forever wish you’d post loads more! Hmm Westlife huh? Things must be getting to you. I think my preferred boy band might have to be the Stones lol, BAD BOY band...

Dragonfly don’t be sad - or at least, only feel sad if it’s going to make you feel better (lol there's T speak for you) - maybe we can feel sad together - I think I’d rather feel sad than angry or mad or bad or whatever the hell else is lurking away back there. Mega hugs to you DF :hug:

LL

Agreed! No rock to crawl under, just a rock from your T for you to keep, DF.
LL, I have wanted to respond to your thread here, but my brain just keeps shutting down when I read it. Weird. It's like *shhhh-static-* I just don't get it. That is I do not understand. I have no idea why.. but please forgive me for not responding very helpfully here, but I can't figure out a danged thing to say! Just wanted to wish you well with this.

BB

DF
I can't write much as really not in a good place, feel disconnected from the world at the moment and really sad, which is hard for me to even say. But I connected with you, my daughter was at that same Westlife concert and had asked me to join her. I couldn't make it but can you imagine that we might both have been there? The world is strange, I haven't posted, the site feels big and eerybody far away, but then I read your post and realised that I could feel that connection. Oh that probably reads rubbishly, never mind...

starfish

Aw thank you DF, now you've made me cry...

Done some very difficult stuff with my T this week and the reality of my past has hit me hard, a full on blow to the head. I have been encouraged, nurtured, supported, guided and held by my T this week and know that we have moved mountains, she has totally been there for me, so in that sense the awfulness was made as easy as it could be. Now I am left with a feeling of devastation at what I managed to tell her, how to carry on with my life, with all the things I had so carefully locked away, now out and staring me in the face. She says we can do it, that they had to be said and acknowledged by me, before we can even begin deal with them. But how much easier shut away where I could try to forget, than this awfulness of not wanting to live with this knowlege?

I know I have to do this, I've tried to keep certain bits shut away before and it doesn't work out - bad memories then come back on their own at the wrong times with horrible force and regularity - at least with her I felt safe and was kept very safe. I'm just finding it hard to get by. I don't feel connected with anything and every task is proving a mountain. On the outside all is well and nobody notices, that makes it even more isolating somehow and yet I don't want them to notice because I don't have the words to tell and they probably couldn't deal with it. I'm not sure I can,

starfish

((((starfish))))

I'm so sorry that things are so hard right now. I am so proud of you that you were able to go to T and let the cork out. I know you were concerned about being able to do that. I'm thankful that your T was there to go through it with you and you felt supported, nurtured and safe. I think the hardest thing to do other than going through the memories themselves with T is to sit with the knowledge that it happened and somehow try to find somewhere in your brain and logic where that fits. The problem is that things that happened to us just don't fit anywhere because they should never have happened in the first place.

Take it easy, pamper yourself and be gentle with yourself. This is hard hard stuff to go through. Thinking of you. ((((hugs))))

Starfish! I am so glad to see your post, I've been on pins and needles worrying about you. I know you needed the space in this difficult week, and I am so amazed at what you say you have managed to do! But now, rest, little Starfish and recuperate for a little bit. But I am so glad to see you poke your head out! Hugs, dear one. ((((((((((((Starfish)))))))))))))

Thank you so much for letting us know, you survived.

Love,

BB

Starfish, I am so glad you were able to experience the release of the really hard stuff causing you so much distress last week. That stuff was eating you up inside while you were waiting. What a relief to learn your T did everything you needed her to do to help you get through it. WOW! I know you feel devestated by all that you now 'know' but keeping it locked away was hurting you. I don't hear the anxiety and stress so evident in your posts prior to exposing the truth. Instead, I hear sadness and perhaps a temptation to disbelieve what you know is real and that knowing the awful truth is a actually a good thing. What you have done is remarkable. You are very brave and strong, Starfish. You have survived some devastating stuff and have also made it through an intense battle for the truth! Give yourself time and take the suggestion of the others to pamper yourself and do whatever will help you feel nurtured. (((((SF)))))

deeplyrooted

LL,

I think I understand what you are saying. Anger is at the unmet needs which is causing the pain. Your core innocence(I like that) is aware that it never had someone to validate who you are as a person or your feelings. Therefore, you feel angry at having to live with that pain of unmet needs. Your part in this is becoming aware that you have value and that your feelings matter and you deserve every bit of the love and care you did not get because you are a valuable human being. Having that mindset gives you a tangible loss to grieve and a foundation on which to step when it is all over. If my parents did not acknowledge that I have worth then by golly I am going to do it for myself! It is then that you can allow yourself to feel the feelings associated with those losses and begin to greive. But, as you said, you can't do that alone. In order to face the terrifying feelings of that level of abandonment and isolation you need to be in the presence of another caring person. SG may be right...you are there...you just need to find a T to help you go through it. I hope that is soon! I know the agony of waiting!

deeplyrooted

Oh this is my 3rd attempt to reply, my head is really not coing with typing. LL am sorry to have disrupted your thread, but wanted to thank everybody for their replies, they meant so much as I feel very isolated with all this.

DF you always speak straight from that big heart of yours, thank you. Yes, I imagined you'd een through similar and yes that's exactly what my T would say

quote:

yes it is easier to lock it all away.but you know its there and it doesnt go away hey? it seeps out and actually in the long run causes more damage i feel, because there is always so much anxiety there on my end normally , knowing that it is there lurking in the depths of my pain and dispair.no one wants to live with the knowledge..........but it is the truth starfish and you deserve to live the truth.....you deserve to live free and happy

and I do know in the long run that you (and she) are right about that. It just feels so awful now not to be able to shut it away as per usual coping method.

STRM

Oh thank you for remembering about letting the cork out- oh I wish I could fnd it and shove it back in again. You are right about the memories not fitting anywhere, I desperately want them to fit, but can't face even looking at them to work it out. But then they don't leave me alone, so I feel in some sort of horrible loop. Thank you.

dear BB, I am sorry for making you worry. Thank you for your encouragement and the hugs too.

deeplyrooted
Thank you for that understanding, it does feel sad and I wish I could 'not remember' again. I hear you all say I am brave, but I don't feel brave at all because it seems I can't cope with this knowledge - then or now. It feels too horrible and I feel so weak, when usually I can be so strong. You are right, it was eating me up and I know that's what I needed to do so badly, it's the reality ohf the knowledge that I can't seem to face.

LL sorry again for disrupting your thread, I would agree with deeplyrooted

quote:

In order to face the terrifying feelings of that level of abandonment and isolation you need to be in the presence of another caring person. SG may be right...you are there...you just need to find a T to help you go through it. I hope that is soon

I agree. This from one who has just faced difficult feelings with a T, I certainly couldn't have done it without her. I so hope you find one that can really help you with what you need to do. They do exist LL, honest. I so wish I could send you mine.

starfish

Starfish:
{{{{{{{Starfish}}}}}}}}
I'm so sorry for the pain you've been in lately, trying to cope with processing traumatic memories. I haven't responded to your posts because I don't feel that I have anything useful to add, not having had to do this kind of work myself...but FWIW, you have my admiration and support, and a lifetime supply of e-hugs. I wish I could help you carry that blasted burden and make it lighter somehow, or even better, make it break apart and fly away so you don't have to carry it anymore. I hope your therapy helps you work through this terrible pain, and that you get some relief very soon.

Dragonfly:
Thanks for the hugs here's some for you, right back atcha...{{{DF}}}...I'm sorry you are feeling sad...and what you said made so much sense, too, I really got this:

quote:

she kept trying to say how wonderful I was,how kind, how it wasnt my fault........well I wanted to feel that so I could work through it and come to the conclusion on my own.....after the first session of me trying it and seeing the results when I cried, mourned ,grieved, thrashed about in my own wallowing self-pity and self-loathing and that I came out of it intact .......she has let me do it ever since....... I guess their jobs as they see it, is to make you feel good about yourself and they think they can do that by constantly re affirming our good bits..but sometimes you just need to go back there and be REAL.

and this:

quote:

I wanted to feel that this time around I was allowed to be selfish and hurt and sulk and be freaking angry.....that I would be loved and ok at the end of those feelings.

Yes, yes, yes...that is it exactly, you've got it!!

And I hope you get that rock, sweetie...you deserve it.

Lamplighter:

quote:

Hey and SG the way I’m feeling about not finding myself a good T here you could very well be getting a knock on your door with me standing there - ‘take me to your T’ lol.

LOL!!

quote:

I just don’t get why Ts don’t seem to get this it strikes me as so damned obvious, so necessary.

LL, as time goes on and I read stories here, and go through my own therapy experiences and compare and contrast, the more I'm convinced that the number one difference between T's who "get it" and T's who don't, is that T's who "get it" have done their own work in therapy!! Experience as a therapist, IMO, is a distant second place. A T can be a T for 40 years, and if they haven't done their own work, then their own unconscious stuff has been damaging people all along...and no one will ever know, because the only stories that are usually believed are the T's, unless the T has done something outrageously wrong. There is no better "experience" than having done one's own work in therapy. None.

Sorry if that was too strongly worded...I will get down off my soapbox now. I just really think that the reason it's so hard to find a T who "gets it" is because so few T's have actually done the kind of work THEMSELVES (with their own T, of course) that you are trying to do. Big hugs to you LL

and everyone

SG

Deeplyrooted and Starfish, thanks for your understanding and support :hug: to you both.

Strummergirl:

quote:

the more I'm convinced that the number one difference between T's who "get it" and T's who don't, is that T's who "get it" have done their own work in therapy!!... There is no better "experience" than having done one's own work in therapy. None.

You know SG now that you’ve put that into words, it seems so obvious lol. How can someone even begin to understand what a client needs unless they’ve been in the same boat to some degree? And no it wasn’t too strongly worded at all!

I think I’ve been taking it for granted that ALL Ts have done their own therapy - certainly the fact that they have supervision tends to lend itself to this view, and the fact that as part of their training they are supposed to go into therapy themselves. But maybe there’s no requirement for them to go into any great depth, it’s more like ticking boxes as a qualification requirement. So thanks for those words SG, right on, as always!

Ha ha but can you imagine trying to find out - oh T and by the way have you had therapy for yourself? Of course they’re all going to say yes, even the CBTers who of all of the approaches are the LEAST likely to have done therapy in any depth. It’s all a big lottery - there just doesn’t seem any certain way of finding the right T short of trying them all out for a decent length of time. At least with an electrician or a builder you can get references and ask to see examples of their work. It’s all so hit and miss with Ts. *sigh*

LL

I am wondering if there is a way to find out if a therapist has done his/her own work in therapy? My ex-T mentioned having done several years of her own therapy...of course....she didn't tell me what kind of therapy. For so long I thought she understood what I was trying to do with my feelings but I guess I was wrong. She had a different approach than what I grew to want from her. I refrain from talking confidently because I am sure there is more to the picture than I can see right now. Maybe there is more than one way to get where I need to go. But I fear some of the other ways take the client around the block to get next door. Regardless, until I am through it I won't know how I got there.

deeplyrooted

Interesting, LL- I think SG has it. I sent my T a list of questions a loooong time ago, when I was in the throes of seriously doubting him. (As you know I go up and down all the time between seriously doubting him and completely trusting him) Anyway, one of my most important questions on the "interview" as I have come to think of it, was "do you see someone for counseling or therapy yourself?"
I find it interesting in the extreme that my T has still not answered my interview questionaire despite even my reminding him of it in an email once, though he has continually told me I need to learn to ask for what I need, and said that he thought it showed I was taking good care of myself by sending him that. What a mixed message, hey? He never answered it, and believe me, sending him that was seriously putting myself out there as he constantly exhorts me to do. I wonder if it is because he is not sure/not proud of the answers, or if he has just forgotten all about it, as he seems prone to doing with me. It is hard for me to believe that someone like him, who really says that it would be difficult to find better therapy than his, which is such a bold statement that I tend to believe it unqualitatively, would actually have very little self-knowledge? I prefer to trust, and put it off to forgetfulness of me. Better forgetful than clueless.

sigh.

BB

Hi LL,

I haven't replied to this thread yet because, frankly, I feel inadequate to offer you anything of value that could help you in this awful time that you're having. No fault of yours or anyone else's, just one of those 'things' that keeps me silent. I just want to offer you any support I can, though!

The main thing that prompted me to post now was the current theme of having Ts that have done their own therapy. I know for a fact my T has done her own therapy, because she has mentioned it to me several times, like "I remember in my own therapy..." I'm young (20) and many years younger than my T, and it sounds like she started therapy back when she was my age, so I guess she has used that as a 'connecting point.' I like my T a lot, and she is very open and candid with me, always wanting to know what she can do to help me, how she can do things differently (if need be), if she's said anything that upset me, etc. I guess all of this is to just echo the thoughts about the benefits of having a T that has done their own work in therapy. Not saying that that is the sole reason why my T is helpful to me, but I'm sure it plays some factor. If not to offer more introspection on their 'side of the couch,' but it's doubly helpful when you know that your T knows what it feels like to be on this petrifying side, too.

DR, I wish I could tell you a good way to know if a T has done their own therapy. I was given my answer without even asking, so I got lucky, but I imagine that maybe it's just one of those questions that should be included when you first talk to a potential T. Again, not talking from experience, considering I was too scared to ask any questions at all, but theoretically it sounds about right!

Hi kashley,

When I started T I was had no idea what questions to ask. Now that I know, I still find it difficult to ask them. Partly because I am not fully convinced I know what the answer should be. At the very least, I guess it will give me practice being assertive.

quote:

she is very open and candid with me, always wanting to know what she can do to help me, how she can do things differently (if need be), if she's said anything that upset me, etc.

How wonderful for you to find a therapist who is so clearly on your side and wanting to help you in any way she can. Even to the point of changing her approach if that is what you need. Humility is a beautiful trait!

Your T is teaching you compassion with yourself while she patiently listens to you. Through that, you not only are given a chance to practice thinking about and then saying what it is you need but you get to learn how to reach out to another person and invite them to do the same. I am excited for you all that you will learn through this relationship with your T and the difference it will make in your life.

deeplyrooted

DR,

I think the easiest way to find out is to just ask. I say "easy" knowing full well that it would NOT be an easy question to ask. Like Kashley, I was lucky enough that I didn't have to ask. I was told by my T. She didn't go into any specifics, but I do know that she has experienced PTSD (not from abuse) and knows first hand how hard it can be. I don't think I would have asked her if she had ever been in therapy if she hadn't told me. I often am curious about different things in her life, but I don't ask because I am terrified of crossing a boundary and thus making her mad at me.


I think having a T that doesn't have issues (who doesn't) and therefore had no need for T is different than working with a T who HAS issues, but has not addressed them. I really don't think you can be a good T unless you have addressed your own issues. I think it would get in the way so often. Either way though, I think a T who is Polly Perfect and never met a problem in her life might be hard to work with too! Probably might have the "just stop it" attitude.

Deeply Rooted -

I just wanted to thank you for your kind and thoughtful response. I have such a hard time that someone could and would actually listen to me and want to help me, even though it seems like the evidence is staring me straight in the face. Sometimes I get these sudden thoughts that this is all ridiculous, that I'm completely going in the wrong direction to think that therapy could help me do the 'something different' that I've been trying to find. I keep having these moments where I suddenly beat myself up for craving the care that it seems like my T is willing to give me...like I either don't deserve it, don't need it, or both. But I guess I believe I want and/or deserve it enough to keep going each week.

I don't want to steer this thread away from its original intent - Lamplighter, how have you been these past few days?

Hi there Kashley thanks so much for asking about me. Haven't felt like doing too much posting lately, still in the process of trying to find a new T. Hopefully by end of the week I'll have a better idea of what's what, I expect that's when I'll return to megaposting on forum lol.

Funny that question about how to ask T about their experience, I met with a new T yesterday and she actually volunteered without my saying anything that she had had her own therapy - two years of it (but as part of her training, which I always think is only superficial). That's the trouble with asking Ts specific questions - the kind of stuff we need to know isn't the sort of thing that you can openly ask because you're kind of giving away the answr in the question itself so you never know whether the answer is genuine in the way you need to hear it. Don't know, it's all very confusing at the moment.

LL

LL,

quote:

I met with a new T yesterday and she actually volunteered without my saying anything that she had had her own therapy - two years of it.

To me it sounds like this therapist is making an attempt to connect with you by exposing the fact that she has sat where you are sitting and understands how you might feel. It's so scary to take a T at face value and to let ourselves trust, at least enough to set aside our negative assumptions of them. I hope your search for a T and all the confusion will end soon.

deeplyrooted