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interesting, mine have denied almost (98%) everything, i wrote them a 7 page letter in september, from the adult self, outlining everything i recall and the 'den't in my forehead i now have, my need for therapy, my need for total space, no contact, and time. mom says it is my 'menapause' and fancies herself that my husband is somehow her friend, and that 'jill is just a bit 'koo koo' right now, hee hee!!'

narcissistic mom is in complete denial, won't 'mind' about the space and no contact, never has acknowledged any truth, but one where she built excuses to justify it.....about her working in the afternoons and not being there, we didn't need the money, she just 'had' to escape us, she said that she now realizes that was wrong, but that is the ONLY thing she has acknowledged...and i said, that MANY working parents are great parents, THAT WORKING was not the problem, it was what she did outside of that time that did the damage, that was just ONE drop of the chinese water torture of my life then.

anyway, my husband has to periodically put his foot down with them about her contacting me, and did yesterday and really got FIRM with them, that i am TRYING to stay out of the hospital, TRYING to raise two kids and keep it normal around here, have lost 20 pounds in the process and to STOP...she kept naming 'good things' she has done for me but they were all as an ADULT, nothing childhood. and really, even then, they weren't GOOD...letting me drop out of college at one point, rather than encouraging me to gut it out and that i COULD handle it, and let me move back into the nest. i know, then, i was still a five year old subconciously realizing she never grew up and needed hugged and a mommy, but by then it was too late, i did move back home looking for the love i never got, but i never got it. the child in me was just hungry for what she never got. she SHOULD have encouraged me to FLY! that she believed in me!! but then, she never encouraged me to do anything, never believed in me (i now realize we were extensions of her own self that she never believed in, and therefore had no love or confidence in us, either). then my husband mentioned my dad slapping me in the face at about 8, she WAILED OFF that he would NEVER do that and hung up.

minutes later my dad emailed my husband (what a wimp, can't even call on the phone) and says he did slap me that day in the car driving home from the beach (same scene) but it was on the leg. ASSHOLE!! i recall my fat lip and thinking in my upside down kind of way, that the fact that i could tell he felt bad about it was SOME kind of validation that he loved me. i was almost proud of it.

i do feel a little victory, despite the lip versus leg aspect, that at least he acknowledged some truth.

what are y'all's experiences with parent's acknowledgement of abuse?? what is your CURRENT relationship with your abuser??

does GOD really want reconciliation??

i struggle here, so much, and with letting my kids have contact with grandparents. i don't stand in the way, they live out of town, but i don't facilitate. did at Easter, they came up for lunch, and i spiralled down for a month or more afterwards. they aren't abusive to them. just me and my sister. belittling in sarcastic ways about me in front of my kids. all 'in jest'. they ARE emotionally ignorant.
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Hi, Jill....nice to meet you! It's an interesting question. I would never have the courage to ask my mom about the neglect. When I was engaged to my husband (for some years because of my inability to let go of my relationship with her, and she was forbidding that I marry him) I mentioned that things hadn't been right and she somehow managed to turn things around and it was me who was attacking her in order to make myself look better in this situation. Then the rest of the family got involved in completely demonizing me and my fiance (now husband) nowadays, when I see them it is like none of that ever happened. I could never win that battle, I would be recovering from the converstaion for too long to make it worth my while. So I mostly, stay away. Fortunately I now live 3 thousand miles away from any of them. the one exception is my sister who has fully acknowledged to me how cruel they all were to me at that time. But stuff from childhood....well, it's still just really hard for me to see.

I am so sorry that your dad slapped you and I can't imagine what could have happened to make a dent in your forehead...and all the other horrible things that must have happened. That is just horrible! I'm not sure about reconciliation. It gets confusing. There is a thread on here on forgiveness you might find interesting. But my T who is fully in favour of reconciliation has recommended Alice Miller to me, and her standpoint seems to be that we should stay angry at the abuse and that the concept of forgiveness is flawed. So I'm very confused. Are we supposed to be/stay angry or move past it at some point to at least, the willingness for reconciliation? I know for myself I long for the ability to have a family connection at all times. It's hard not to "give in" in that I talk to my mom on the phone every once in awhile, and it ends up just that I can't help myself to say whatever I know will make her feel better about all her problems and worries for a little while, because it makes me feel like she loves me for a little while. I've always acted like a therapist to her. The only answer seems to be no contact. It's confusing Jill. I totally get this:

quote:
i spiralled down for a month or more afterwards. they aren't abusive to them. just me and my sister. belittling in sarcastic ways about me in front of my kids. all 'in jest'. they ARE emotionally ignorant.


It's not my mom who does this to me...it's my siblings when I go home. I was always "the good daughter" so they have disliked me and rejected and belittled me for as long as I can remember. I wish it could be different. I don't know, Jill...I need to believe that there is always hope that people will see that they are a part of the problem. I think it's hard to forgive without that.

hug, Jill...

BB
BB, you are a better person than me. and no, the 'dent' in my forehead is figurative meaning the dent in my psche and spirit.

yes, i was the good daughter, jumped so high to get the carrot that i got the string, too. but no one noticed. and i was still jumping until last summer.

now, i honestly wish they were dead and i didn't have to deal with them ever again. i do not miss them at all, i have no love for them. i wish, if they weren't dead, that they thought i was so they wouldn't contact me. i have no wish to harm them or retaliate, and the 'dead' thing i know is just a childish fantasy. i am not meaning to be mean, but to not acknowledge, between you and me and my husband and my therapist, what i really want, is just to repress that, i know, evil and bad desire. how i present it, is, like humpty dumpty somewhat, i wish they all, sister included, would just roll down a very big hill. and like an egg, shatter, and be painless, but POOFF!! gone!! problem disolved...i think this is still my fairytale thinking, like when you think if you 'wish' something hard enough, it can become true. that is how i endured life as a kid, and even as an adult in 'continuing the lie of a happy childhood...just coz i WISHED it were true'.

anyway, that's where you are more mature than i am in that you long to, as a friend of mine says...'love them for what they did right, and forgive them for what they did wrong'. i just feel my 'gift giving' of myself to them for so many years is SO OVER. and i can't and won't go back...i had my husband tell them that when i am 'clean and sober' (of the therapy, no alcohol) for a year, then we may talk, but not until then.

anyway, being the good daughter is a tough road, people don't realize that you reach an end.

all the best to you, good daughter...hugs...
Oh, no, I don't see it that way at all, Jill. I'm certainly not a better person...I think I am just not far enough along in therapy to face some of these things inside like rage inside, or the past. I suspect my therapist thinks there is a lot of repressed or suppressed or whatever, rage inside of me. But I just can't seem to feel it. I'm not convinced. I feel a lot of unreasonable rage in everyday life over stupid little things that don't even signify. I feel "unable" to have feelings of love for my kids, I just go through the motions of doing what I am supposed to do and try to control my unreasonable expectations, try to be loving to them as best I can.. Then I am completely overwhelmed by strong feelings of love for them at the times I am not so depressed. That is not good I think. I think the rage you are experiencing is justified and much healthier than my strange setup, I'm pretty sure. Well, I'm no therapist, though. Be kind to yourself. Glad you have such a supportive spouse, there...

BB
I just wanted to add, that I applaud you for your courage in facing some of these things. I will still justify and take the blame for all the abuse and neglect. Or refuse to call it abuse and neglect. It just doesn't seem like abuse and neglect, even though objectively...well you get the picture..this forum is the only place I've been able to call a spade a spade, and even here it is very hard to do. It still feels like a lie to call it that. So don't be hard on yourself at all for the rage you feel. Believe me, I'm pretty sure mine is under there somewhere, too. How is the T search going?

BB
((((((((((((((blackbird)))))))))))))))

sweet friend, we all don't know where we are, i sense. and i hope you know that in saying what i did about you being a better person, it is meant in sincerity, not sarcasm or harm. i have just found that i don't have it in me to forgive. i know that is a Christian value, and i 'should', and i can say the words, but my heart knows where my heart is, and abuse of a child in the ways i was chronically abused is not forgivable. my maturity or faith or SOMETHING is just not there, and i have put THAT entirely in God's hands, and am (trying!) not to beat myself up about it any more.

i know the 'not feeling' and then 'feeling entirely'....the black and white of that, i have that in many arenas, and one thing someone told me to do, in looking at our own abuse, is to (gestalt) put it outside of you, this was T1 when i told him about my dad slapping me in passing, as it didn't even blip my radar of what is or isn't 'normal'...i told T1 "i thought ALL kids were slapped around a bit" and he had me picture a grown man at the ball park with his 8 year old daughter (the age i presume it happened), and what would I say, if i saw that grown man turn to his small daughter and SLAP her on the face with an open hand. of course, ALL OF US WOULD CALL CPS, OR TALK TO THAT MAN, OR DO SOMETHING!! EVEN IF WE JUST THOUGHT IT WAS REPULSIVE! WE WOULD AT LEAST THINK THAT.

so BB, when you think of what was done to YOU, think about an anonymous person doing that to a child, or even you to your own children. WE KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG, we just are so DAMAGED that we can't stand up for ourself, or feel our own WORTH.

and i say this intellectually, but know the emotions are much slower.

rage is scary, too, but this one book i read about separating fantasy from reality helped me to understand that i shouldn't fault myself for rage-like thinking and anger, and even expressing it in a safe place. that condemning yourself for having sinful thoughts, or pretending they are not there is, in the long run, more damaging

one last note, a good friend of mine is a therapist and her husband is a child psychiatrist, and on their refrigerator is a 'KILL LIST', and whenever there is a teacher, a kid, whatever, that anyone is mad at, they can write their name on the kill list. now, i always thought that was crazy, but now i see it as just a safe place to put a normal fantasy of normal hatred 'out there'. it is a 'funny' at their house, and now, i get it.

one thing too, mother teresa even has bound to have people that she didn't like...or bad thoughts...y'no?? we hold ourself up to a level )in seeking parents approval and love) that no one can achieve.

and too, i know many things 'to say', but i have YET TO INCORPORATE MOST INTO MY CHILD PSYCHE!! hence, two hours of crying like a baby after Dr. SLeepy fell asleep on me. so, hang in there, you are good...go 'gestalt yourself' when you question whether your abuse was REAL!!! ((one thing, too i will say, T2, without knowing many details concurred that regardless of whether the abuse/neglect is real...my symptoms are TEXTBOOK and DEEP and PERVASIVE!!) so, try that, too!!

much love sweet blackbird!! jill

so,
Hey, Jill, you didn't need to delete anything...you suggested I change my name, and that's ok...I know you meant it in the spirit of blackbirds being kind of, well, black- and I get it, you don't think I'm creepy, and I appreciate that very much! Smiler But I think I will stick with my name, since it seems to fit, and Jones figured out why I chose that name! Smiler Please don't feel bad, Jill, just in case you were. ((((Jill))))

DF, thanks for your kind words re:blackbirds...((((DF))))I totally get where you are at with the forgiveness thing...and I remember what you wrote before on the forgiveness thread, it was amazing- but I really understand how Charlie felt he should delete- we all need protectors. I do my delete/regret/delete/regret cycle on here faily frequently too. Maybe we just need permission to be able to do that without feeling bad about it. What do you think? That one is kind of confusing for me.

Well, Jones, I keep coming in and out of the corner. I think I'll join you over there again in a minute...hope you are taking care of you right now, I know how hard this time is getting for you. ((((Jones))))

BB
I've forgiven my father for the abuse (years ago)He was an alcoholic (not that it was an excuse) but he's recovering now, 20 years since he's had a drink. he's spent those 20 years being the best dad a girl could hope for, and he regrets the things he did when he was drinking.

As for my mother, I came to her looking for an "apology" I suppose; for the things she let (and sometimes openly endorsed) my stepfather do to me, and she told me that I needed to get over it and not to bring it up again. I haven't addressed the mother issues in therapy because I feel like she would be taking away my precious therapy time and I have much more pressing issues to deal with.

I may never bring this stuff up in therapy, we'll see. We've been pretty much estranged my entire adult life and I'm doing my best to keep it that way; luckily she's hundreds of miles away.

Edit: There are things my mother did to me which I consider to be "unspeakable" that I would NEVER bring up in therapy. I'd rather just pretend they never happened. I know it's not healthy but that's the way it has to be.

WLOH
(((blackbird))) no worries, i just misspeak often, so i love delete features...wish i could delete my childhood, and as much as i have tried, it just came up BIG TIME in my 'trash bin' as never really deleted.

'we' are fine, so, i'm sorry, and i know i am forgiven by you coz i know you are nice and safe, a big deal to all of us!! xxoo
I wish there was an email recovery option I could use for all the ridiculous emails I used to send my T...he must think I am a complete dope...that is, if he thinks about me at all which I doubt.
Poor me. I think next time I see my T he will say "Hey, there, little neglectorino!" The world's tiniest violin is playing today...I think he forgets I'm his client.

Jill, how did your appointment go it was today right?
you know, there is a rotten little part of me that really likes being the one to dump HIM (T1) first. in fact, several times he said "i have FIRED clients!" ...

that just seemed so inappropriate to me, i decided next time he does that i am going to say "if anyone is firing anyone around here, it is me firing you...what are YOU saying by that, are you THREATENING ME?? are you telling me to sit up straight and to clean up my language??" but of course, as all good lines go, he never said it again. i guess he had some validation/power issues of his own, and maybe i triggered getting dumped by a girlfriend that you couldn't impress (like i wasn't impressed with his CBT shit). i hope so, actually, isn't that mean of me?? i hope he hurts because his lack of 'paid for' nurturance I DIDN'T GET!

sad but true, that is how i feel.

i love your word..."NEGLECTORINA"...i am addicted to y'all as this is the only place i am understood and can get a laugh on the board!! he was a giant "NEGLECT-OR". no 'ina'.

dang, i think many of us seem to need counseling to deal with our therapist, i guess that is the whole transference model, and massively true, and REALLY PROBLEMATIC when the therapist just reinforces those failing patterns in your life that no one (who can help get your needs met) cares.
boy, AMEN sweet sister STRM.

i am too busy trying to recover. i guess, as sad as it is, i must still have some ounce of fantasy left in me thinking the will admit and apologize...that needs to totally die. i would shoot it dead if i knew how.

forgiveness?? i have already realized that not forgiving IS a forgivable sin, and i turn it over to GOd to heal my heart if that is where He wants me to go, then i will follow, but in the meantime, i have got to recover.

you put it well, my friend, thanks!
the more i read y'all's posts, the more i realize i should be content with no apology, etc. coz if i had that, i may be inclined to re-enter the sick co-dependant circle i was in. so, watch what you wish for, i am telling myself. better to just leave it as is.

it is weird though, a year ago, if they were killed in a car crash?? i would have mourned. now?? i really don't know what i would do. but, just between us, relief at not having to be in relationship with them (because of my own sense of 'duty' to supply them with their grandkids and whatever positive element they could offer my kids) is certainly the main emotion i think i would feel.

i always go down the deepest darkest alley just to be prepared for 'what if'...

hmmmm.

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