Hi AH,

It doesnt seem like a stupid question to me. I'm no expert in transference, but I guess it can be gender specific.

I was thinking about your situation more in terms of 'triggers' - wondered, are you being triggered by men that remind you of your dad? Of course, looking at it that way, women dont remind you of that relationship.

It's good you notice what is happening for you in these situations, but sorry it's all so painful.

SB

I think the answer is both yes and no.

Trauma can be triggered to the *extent* that the present circumstances remind us of a past traumatic situation or relationship. Gender can be one factor in the degree of resemblance, but there can be other factors as well, and it's definitely possible for someone to trigger trauma involving someone of a different gender if they were acting like that person in other ways.

I think this is a very good question! I'm not sure of the answer. I was thinking that for me, I have been looking for some sort of attachment/connection (didn't know what it was until I entered therapy and started reading here though) in older female figures. I really don't have any kind of connection needs with older men. I think it's because I was so attached to my mom until my brother got sick and she got more and more depressed and withdrawn. She was still functional but I think it was enough for me to have some insecurities in my attachment to her. And now I think I have some sort of anxious attachment. But on the other hand, having an "anxious attachment style" should mean that I am anxious in all/most of my more intimate relationships, right? I know it has played out in my romantic relationships, but I really haven't seen it in my friendships. I am lucky to have a few really close friends that I am not anxiously attached to at all. So I don't really know?

I do know that transference is not always gender specific. Many things about someone can trigger old and/or traumatic feelings and ways of relating. Here I think the gender is at times less of a factor.

Also, just wanted to say that I can relate to authority figure unease. I have particular difficulty with certain people in authority positions too. Mostly they are men but a few have been women. I've never been abused by men or women, so I don't know where the intense anxiety comes from. I guess certain people just really intimidate me, despite some of them being really nice.

Thank you guys for responses!

(((S-B))) I do think it's true, that I'm more triggered in general by men that have similar traits/features/personality of my dad. Sometimes even just men at all. Your post made me think, in terms of triggers, I wonder if in a different way I also am triggered by people who remind me of my mom, in that I tend to be disinterested/withdrawn from them?

(((BLT))) That makes sense that there are several factors involved that can trigger reactions, beyond gender of the person. I guess I'm wondering, beyond being triggered by someone, why is it some people are drawn/react more to male attachment figures than to female attachment figures? (or vice versa) It seems from reading here that some people are more drawn to one or the other, makes me curious as to what leads to that...

(((erica))) Your reply gives me so much food for thought... the insecurity of attachment with your mom. I wonder if that's the key? I wonder if that's the part that causes a pull toward one gender of attachment figure or the other... I wonder if anyone here has noticed a need for both? I've always felt authority figure unease might be transference of sorts from having negative experiences with parents. I know from reading your posts that your situation involved a lack of validation from authority/parental source, so maybe it plays into discomfort of them feeling safe?

Another thing I find fascinating is how you mentioned you notice anxious attachment in romantic relationships, but not friendships. I notice it the other way around for me, I have some friends I feel anxiously attached to, but don't feel abandonment fears/anxiety with my H. Which I talked at length with to a consult T once, because I was deeply confused about that. He introduced me to the concept of people having a 'love map' which I guess is the ideas you form about romantic relationships and what you find attractive in your developmental years. I've noticed that I have a strong romantic pull toward men that are, for lack of a better term, abusive jerks like my dad. I think there is a lot of transference involved there, and consult T told me that had to do with the idea of "control/ mastery theory" or being able to get a 'do over' of what I couldn't fix back then.

So I made my conscious goal to make sure I married the polar opposite of my father, and while I'm eternally grateful to have done so, I have often run smack into the realization that my H is extremely foreign to me... everything kind and gentle he does is like something from an alien species. It's a real learning experience to see what it should have been like between my parents. I feel badly when I give him that stunned look of confusion so often.
Whoa just got off on a tangent... that could be a whole other post on it's own!!

Hello everyone,

Interesting topic. I am not sure it can exactly qualifies as "attachment wounds", but my attachment styles with my parents definitely shaped (or took part in shaping) my reactions to gender:
- my father, while being a very good and loving father, whom I love a lot is also a very absent one. He never planned on having children, and if I had to define my relationship with him I'd say non-existing: he gives me money and wants me to be fine. But don't talk to me or manifest any interest in me: we never had anything to share. And he is depressed. So basically he is not here, not interesting. And that's pretty much how I relate to any man (I'm sort of queer, btw), I just don't feel anything, no interest, no fear, it's just like... cars. I don't mind cars, they just are not part of my emotional life.
-while the attachment issues I had with my mother (both with her being a "goddess", always right, always ruling, and also with her "abandoning" me and my sister) definitely resurface in my relationships to any female caregiver (which can include any female authority figure).

But, same as Erica, this does not happen as much in my friendships: I am always worried my friends will abandon me, but I feel they are much safer than anyone else!

I don't know whether it helps

This thread is really making me think!

My mother was (well is, but I don't see her) very narcissistic and abusive. I'm ok in my friendships with women who are my own age (have a kind of sibling feeling towards them), but any female in an authority role sends me off the trigger scale. I have very complicated feelings of fear, abandonment and that I am judged and wanting in those situations - which is difficult to handle. I'm pretty sure I had a disorganized attachment to my mother and an avoidant one with my father. I'm very wary of men (except my husband - who isn't anything like my dad).

Sigh. Complicated isn't it?

SB

I've actually thought that for a long time in my life I had two templates: the "unavailable" template and the "useless" template, and they weren't gender specific. "Unavailable" was the people I wanted but couldn't "get" and "useless" was the people I could get but didn't want. In terms of attachment theory, you could say that "useless" is a dismissive/avoidant attachment template, and "unavailable" is an anxious/ambivalent attachment template.

Although I really can't be sure about it, I can surmise that the "unavailable" template originally stems from my dad (he is very good with kids from what I have seen, but was busy with work and not around so much when I was little) and the "useless" one probably stems from my mom (she stayed home when I was little but I think she wasn't very attuned.) But by the time I was 8, my mom started telling me bad stuff about my dad that made me distrust him on some level, and he may have gradually gotten thrown in the "useless" pile, too.

In terms of how these patterns got played out with others in my life, I can't see any clear pattern in terms of gender. Many of my (female) teachers in school were in the "unavailable" category, but so were my first serious crushes on guys. It is clear through that by far my strongest emotions were directed at people in the "unavailable" category, who I desperately wanted to love me but of course I couldn't get their attention consistently. I started dating people in the "useless" category on purpose (although I wouldn't have called it that back then) after I figured out how I was making myself miserable! My first (female) T was definitely in the "unavailable" category and my current one (also female) I tried to shove into both categories at different times until she was so stubbornly both useful and available that I had to make a new category for her :-)

Wow, I was seriously just today trying to figure out how much it matters that the T I have so much trouble with is male. I was even thinking that I just have no use for men because I have no idea what they are about and I have never had any men in my life that mean something important to me or stay. It's like any relationship with men is at once very empty and alien and also very loaded and charged emotionally.

Anyway. BLT, ding, ding, ding! Unavailable or useless categories. That really rings a bell for me.

Mmmmm unavailable and doesn't really like me enough! Sounds like a delicious torture of the kind I need more of. Sign me up. (I am being sarcastic about myself) And yes, for me, this kind of torture I enjoy most with men.

My other very common assessment of people who are in relationships with me is that ultimately they are stupid and useless. Men and women both can fit here, I guess.

My current T is unavailable and doesn't like me enough AND I feel that he is stupid and useless. Well, no wonder I have been on this train for almost 4 years.

I was close to my dad who died when I was nine and I never heard a word from him after.

My mom was already emotionally unavailable and not inordinately interested in me BEFORE my dad died and left her a widow with four children to support.

So OK, probably none of this is helpful to anyone, and I'm not sure what my point is or if I have any conclusions. When I started writing I thought I would find a conclusion, but not really. May have to think on it more.

Good topic.

Wow this is really fascinating... although I'd first like to say I'm so sorry for everyone's experiences, I know the root of this topic generally comes from a difficult place Thank you for responding and being willing to share/ discuss.
(((about))) your answer does help, you remind me a lot of my feelings toward male and female authority figures, just in reverse. I think the idea of motherly figures 'just not being part of my emotional life' is a good way to describe it. I am glad you don't notice this as much in your friendships, that is a positive!

(((S-B))) It is complicated!! I think it's really interesting when we notice these patterns with other people. Having worked with both male and female T's I really can see the difference in my comfort level around them put in very clear perspective. Figuring out how to rewire the reactions is the tough part though...

(((BLT))) Wow this is a whole new line of food for thought... unavailable and useless templates... makes me think!! It really reminds me of something I read about people who match our internal views of ourselves, and how if we view ourselves as worthless, we feel a pull toward those who don't have much use for us. The bad part obviously being they could care less about our needs, but they 'match' our internal landscape. The people who feel the opposite way, and value us, just don't match up with our internal truths about ourselves, so they are positive and willing to be in our life, but foreign or 'useless' to what we 'know' about ourselves. Just reminds me of that... (and btw I love that current T made for a change in categories!!)

(((quell))) Your post makes me think back again to the idea of having a 'love map', and being drawn to men who fit the idea of attraction toward those who fit early learned models... that may not fit or apply in your case, but I can't help but think of it again... it is a lot to ponder over, especially when seeing these patterns come up in therapy.

I think in reading over all of this again I realized something else about my personal case, I realized the difference in reaction I have with H's parents. My FIL I cling to/ get angry and defensive with/ mistrust/ cling to again in a very intense way. My MIL I don't have much of any reaction to emotionally... so strange. Once they both did something very hurtful (afraid to put too many details about it right now) and it was amazing how I processed my hurt for the exact same action, but different feelings toward both of them... which brings me back around to idea that maybe all of this is more transference than anything???

(((AH))) i think this is a really good thread, thanks for putting it out there.

i don't have an abusive background, either. both the folks were just not there physically or emotionally. to be fair, they were both very busy people (8 children). they were verry involved in many volunteer-type activities that took them away from the more immediate responsibility of raising a family. they were gone aLOT.

this thread got me thinking about authority figures in general. it seems to me that unless the authority figure is MILES away from how i percieve my folks to have been, that i react in one of two ways, which does happen to be gender specific: if it is a woman, there is a strong distaste, with a little bit of fear and distrust mixed in. almost a loathing. if it is a man, i react with fear and mentally and emotionally i become very stupid. i'm not saying that to be funny. i seriously become like a little child that can't think and can't feel because i just shut down.

AH:

quote:

older male authority figures send me into a panic unless they are extremely stable and prove over a great deal of time that they are trustworthy... and even then it's a struggle to stay within 5 feet of them. (and when they actually do something threatening in the 'here and now' it's more than I can even tolerate) Constant fear of abandonment with them, need to get away, and also a strong, almost gravitational pull toward them. (either in a romantic or paternal sense)

i TOTALLY get this. i don't know if you were around when i took a long break from therapy (7 months), but that time was excruciating for this very reason. i wanted SOOO bad to see him, but at the same time there was an equal, opposing force that wanted to stay away. it really was a painful, confusing situation. only now, i know i didn't have to suffer it alone, if i'd only have gone in and talked about it with T. sigh ... it really can be so difficult.

please don't apologize for your questions. they're good ones! thanks again for starting this thread.

(((CD))) I'm having one of those moments I frequently run into on the forum, where I feel both happy and sad when someone 'gets it' (happy to be understood, and sad for you that you relate to the feelings)

quote:

if it is a man, i react with fear and mentally and emotionally i become very stupid. i'm not saying that to be funny. i seriously become like a little child that can't think and can't feel because i just shut down.

MEEE TOO!!!! This is so much how I've interacted in work situations. I had one boss in particular who backed me into a corner and yelled at me, and I'll just say the results of that were pretty horrendous on my end. But even before that incident, I felt like I couldn't even think straight when he asked me a question. Such a relief to hear that others have felt the same way (although again I wish no one felt this way!) I wasn't here when you took your break, but I can imagine how hard that was. I had really similar feelings when I left my T because he had some really questionable behavior, I knew I needed to stay away to protect myself, but I still felt a need to see him. It's all so confusing.
Thanks for letting me know you like the thread!

it is sucky that anybody has to experience these feelings, but it is SOO comforting to have places like the cafe where you can come and know that people will at the very least try to understand where you're coming from, with no judgement. all the better when others can truly relate. there is GREAT comfort in that.

I'm sorry your boss was such an a$$hole! what a jerk! makes me mad. my last boss was like that. he was very (in my mind) intimidating, and would kind of push me into a corner with questions and make me doubt myself. it was very triggering to say the least, yet at the same time i do think he liked me. very weird stuff. i'm learning with time to trust my own feelings ... like i'll go with the "he likes me" and believe that his bullying behavior says more about him than it ever did about me. it's hard to separate yourself from that when you're experiencing it, though.

oh ... and that quote you posted? that's also how i am in therapy. i REALLY like my T and think he's just so cool and so wise. but because of the stupidness that i mentioned, it makes me doubt my ability to be succesful in therapy, and so i struggle with the whole "i want to go/i don't want to go" internal conflict. it's very difficult and confusing stuff.

(((CD))) I'm sorry you had one of those bosses too It's hard to separate your feelings from his behavior, like you said. Trusting your own feelings about all this stuff is crucial and yet one of the hardest parts. I hope therapy gets a little easier as you go along, I think you're so brave to work with a male T while facing that internal struggle of reactions that comes along with it.

quote:

it is sucky that anybody has to experience these feelings, but it is SOO comforting to have places like the cafe where you can come and know that people will at the very least try to understand where you're coming from, with no judgement. all the better when others can truly relate. there is GREAT comfort in that.

quote:

My question is, then, is this strictly transference going on, and attachment wounds are all encompassing to any future social interactions? OR can you just be specifically wounded by one of your parents, and whichever parent that is, the attachment issues will only really surface with that gender in later life?

AH,
I think part of the reason this is so confusing is that it's not a simple, cut and dried, straight forward relationship.

I tend to think of transference as our relational schema. In other words, from the time we are born, we are taking in the world around us, and how we relate to other people, most importantly our caretakers who are our attachment figures. We learn what to expect from relationships from these experiences and the beliefs formed by what happened ("I don't matter, "I am undeserving of love" "My needs are too much" "No one is available when I need them" "I can't know what to expect from someone who claims to love me" "I must pay for my relationships" for some examples) will tend to color our perceptions as we go forward through life. Any given set of facts will be interpreted through this internal filter.

For example, I made an emergency call to my T one evening. When he called back, it sounded like he was in a restaurant and he was pretty clipped and ended the call quickly. I got off the phone and went straight to "he's totally fed up and exasperated, couldn't wait to get off the phone and I've burnt him out." There's the transference. My parents treated me as if I was too much so I saw my T's actions as also saying that. But the truth was, when I spoke to him, that he was in a hurry so he was somewhat rushed on the phone (he did apologize for that) but that there was no frustration or exasperation on his part. My experience caused me to put the worst possible interpretation on his actions.

Since these kinds of memories are often implicit and learned in a right brain way, they get triggered by similarity of situation. If a child burns their hand by touching a hot burner on a stove, there not going to touch ANY burners for awhile, despite the fact that a perfectly cool burner is safe to the touch.

So here is where I think the gender plays into it. Our reactions from the past tend to get kicked up when enough factors in the present resemble a time in the past when we got hurt. If we were abused by a father, men will have a tendency to feel more dangerous. If your mother than women will. So I don't think the attachment and transference are directly linked as such. it's just that therapy places us back in a relationship that most closely resembles being a child: an older, wiser other who is focused on our needs. If we did not have this, then our unfulfilled primitive longings can surge. But as we start to attach, moving closer to the parental figure is going to kick off all kinds of internal alarms and we will see the person distorted by our past experience.

I have at times experienced my T both as my mother and father. But because I was so injured by my father, I know that a lot of issues have been evoked by having a male therapist.

And attachment is not set in stone, nor is it a constant throughout life or even the same for all people at any given time. We can change. I have taken attachment tests and seen myself move from fearful and insecure to secure as I have healed. I also think that we tend not to worry as much about friends because they are not in a parental role, so our feelings of danger don't get kicked up. But I could see if someone was abused by a sibling how peer relationships might be more problematical.

We are a complex interplay between our genetics and environment and continue to grow and change throughout our life, so I truly think its hard to assign too many rules to this stuff, especially as it's about our subjective experience. Hope I didn't make it more confusing!

AG

((((Monte))))

This is an interesting thread, and I don't usually chime in but Monte's post resonated so deeply. My mother, deeply wounded herself, has never been there for me. My father left us when I was 18 months old, and by the time I was 13, she had been remarried 3 (nearly 4, she broke off an engagement) times. Some call her a sociopath. I don't really know and I don't really care at this point. All I know is that I have no concept of being cared for, especially maternally. I have female friends, but I am ambivalent, at best, about them.

With men, it's a different story. I think because it was such a revolving door (with incest and abuse added along the way) that there is a yearning for their attention but a full expectation that it will never last, and an aversion mixed in just for fun that plagues every connection I have with a male.

Probably explains why I have never connected with a female T and why my connection with my T is so chaotic.

(((AG))) You have such a clear grasp on explaining this stuff, thank you for posting! It makes sense that this is a pretty complex reaction, and would be unique to each person's experience. I really do identify with the idea of having an internal filter that I relate to others through, and it being magnified in therapy. And I am very grateful to know that these patterns can change, that's a relief!!

(((monte))) I'm sorry to hear how much you've been through It really makes sense how you would feel given your background. I think one of the most interesting parts of looking at all this is the connections we can make from present day feelings to situations of the past. And I give you major credit for working with male T, and all of the reactions that you see playing out! I think I am too afraid to try a male T again, it scares me so much.

(((outsider))) I'm also really sorry to hear of your experience, I think it's so interesting how many here have similar stories to each other. What you said about Monte's post resonating with you, I feel the part about seeking maternal love seems sickening, that struck a chord with me as well... made me think about whether the ambivalent feelings toward females are really just a refusal I have to attach on some level...

Big hugs to all, and thank you again for sharing, I know a lot of this is painful. I really hope looking into how these patterns play out for us might help identify how we can better connect with T's and others... maybe being able to see where we're coming from can help us get a clearer picture of where we'd like to go?