Hi LL,

I think you have expressed what you are looking for beautifully. I do not think what you are looking for is "wrong" at all. But I do think finding a T who "gets" this is very difficult. And like you said, it is puzzling to me, because I've also thought that therapy was supposed to be about feeling our feelings (which is why I'm still really annoyed at being told by my former T that my feelings were "getting in the way of the therapy". Sometimes I wish I could go back there and say, no, my feelings were getting in the way of your agenda! Grrr ). Sorry, I'm digressing there...anyway, I'm not sure what the reasons are for why it is difficult to find. But I just want to encourage you that what you are looking for is good, it's right, and I very much hope you find it.

A dear friend recently encouraged me by reminding me of this quote from Drama of the Gifted Child, and I'd like to pass it along to you, as another way to encourage you that you are on the right track:

quote:

An adult can be fully aware of his feelings only if he had caring parents or caregivers. People who were abused and neglected in childhood are missing this capacity and are therefore never overtaken by unexpected emotions. They will admit only those feelings that are accepted and approved by their inner censor, who is their parents' heir. Depression and a sense of inner emptiness are the price they must pay for this control. The true self cannot communicate because it has remained unconscious, and therefore undeveloped, in its inner prison. The company of prison warders does not encourage lively development. It is only after it is liberated that the self begins to be articulate, to grow, and to develop its creativity. Where there had been only fearful emptiness or equally frightening grandiose fantasies, an unexpected wealth of vitality is now discovered. This is not a homecoming, since this home has never before existed. It is the creation of home.

We already have that horrid "inner censor"...so that last thing we need is a T who compounds it by censoring us too. We need someone who will help us ignore the inner censor and allow our true selves to come forward, to be "liberated" from that inner prison we built so long ago for our survival.

quote:

What I think I need as the main focus of therapy is to be safely encouraged to be made aware of what I’m feeling in any given moment, in the here and now. The only way I have found that could be a way out for me is to experience and express what I am feeling right in this very moment, regardless of whether I know what I’m feeling or why or whether it’s caused by something in the present or from the past.

What you have described is exactly what my T encourages me to do - experience my feelings in the moment without judging, just become aware of what they are, "find my heart". And she has consistently demonstrated that it is SAFE to do so. Safety is huge.

quote:

I have such a rigid set up that even when I really want to go ahead with something I am feeling (like tears), I am unable to - this is what I am looking for in a therapist, someone who can understand this specific need and focus on and help me find ways that will let me express what I’m feeling in any given moment during the session, with a view to letting me experience whatever I feel as ok, innocent, correct (for me), acceptable even good, rather than pushing the idea that feelings somehow reveal pathology about me.

I also have that rigid set up. I was so relieved to find my T, I thought my feelings would just come pouring forth. Hah! It has taken eight months and there have only been a few times recently when I've been able to feel without shutting it back down. Most of the time I'm caught up in trying to "figure everything out" intellectually, or trying to clamp down on my feelings because they are "wrong" or inconvenient to others or whatever. I just did it again in my last session and I came away from it feeling so frustrated. So what you are saying is so true. I don't need a T who intellectualizes or judges or cracks a whip, not when I already do that myself. What I need is a T who allows and invites me to feel. And that's exactly what my T does.

quote:

It’s the whole looking for reasons and trying to understand what’s wrong with me that I have to change to get/feel better that’s screwed me up big time in the first place. And I’m getting the sense that Ts either don’t understand that or simply discount it as yet another thing wrong with me.

All the T's before this one tried to do this, too. And so did I. Now with this T, all the attempts at judging, interpretation, what does this mean, what do I do about it - all that comes from me. Actually in some cases, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, AFTER I've had a chance to feel the feelings I need to feel. Then what needs to happen (if anything) will fall into place. But usually what happens is I (or they, with former T's) try to interpret too soon and it ends up getting in my way. Like putting the proverbial cart before the horse. And I stay stuck.

One of the things that I had to express at the beginning of my work with her was my anger, hurt, and disappointment with my former T. And every time I had to feel that again, I was so afraid that this was going to be the time she was going to say, enough already, it's time to move on. But she never did, she only responded with empathy, and said it's okay, you need a safe place to express this. And just in the last few weeks, I finally feel okay about not knowing "why" he and the other T's behaved the way they did, I finally feel the relief of acceptance, I no longer think it must have been all my fault, and I'm feeling a sense of closure. And with that, I'm taking actions to move forward with my marriage therapy, WITHOUT her cracking a whip or saying it's time to move forward. That's just happening naturally, because I was given the space to process my feelings at my own pace. So I think I really do get what you're saying here.

I wish I could send you to my T, she would LOVE to work with you, LL. She is always "inviting" me to feel with little things she says, and when I do start to feel, she tries to "hold" me there so I don't shut down again. Maybe one of the reasons she can do this is because she is independent, and I do my own insurance paperwork, so no one is asking her to account for why it is taking "so long" (whatever that is)? Also from what she has self-disclosed, I know she has been through her own pain and done her own work in therapy. I know it's a long shot, but when I see her tomorrow, would you mind if I ask her if she has any advice on how you can find a T like this?

Lots of hugs,
SG

Hey LL - I want to agree with SG that what you've articulated what you want beautifully, and I think this is a wonderful tool to take into your therapy. It is clear to me that you have come a long way to know so powerfully what you need, and I really, really hope you can get it - if not from this t, from someone else SOON. It must be extremely frustrating and painful to know so clearly what you want and not be able to lay your hands on it. Can you take this post with you tomorrow? It seems really important to get clear feedback from the t about whether this is something she can do or not.

Hey Lamplighter,

I think that what you are describing is so on target with how everyone's therapy should be that it's amazing how many Ts just don't get it. I can so relate to this - in my last session with my T, we talked about how anger was (and is) a "dangerous" feeling in my family, and I have internalized this. In the session before, I felt a small amount of anger at my father, but I remember quickly stuffing it away, because I was scared to feel it. I was even scared to admit it, because my T asked me if I was feeling anger and I said that I wasn't. In my next session, I really hope I can feel a little more, and maybe I can get a feel for how my T will handle it. I can't tell if she's just letting me intellectualize right now until I'm "ready" to feel, or if that's her main focus.

In my opinion, it seems like feeling should come first, because that's the only way you can ever be able to fully grasp what happened in the past, as well as deal with the present. Besides, I know in my case that since I have stuffed everything away for so long, whenever I do feel, it's like a torrent of a million emotions, and I have trouble sorting through them. Which also makes it impossible for me to assign a feeling to a memory. Anyway, I hope that made some sort of sense. It just seems so essential to me that therapists help us feel and become comfortable feeling, because in the end, that's what matters the most. We're not going to be living in the past, we're going to be moving on with our lives, and we have to be able to feel to do that.

Strummergirl, and Jones you have helped me SO much you have no idea. It really really matters to me that you both know what I’m talking about.

Now that I have some sense that what I’m talking about is not garbage and la la land fantasy I do think I can hold my ground with this T tomorrow - if it’s ok with you can I paraphrase some of what you’ve both said in your posts?

You know what the frustrating thing is, that I HAVE said all this stuff, not just once but several times in varying forms both in initial sessions and if I’ve seen the T a second time or more - felt like a stuck record I’ve repeated myself so often. They just don’t seem to get it - sometimes they say yes I understand and I think oh good let’s do it next session then, and come next session it neither gets referred to nor is anything done to help me get on with it (for instance - asking me the simple question - how do you feel right now? Grrrr and Aaarrgghh!)

SG I nearly laughed when I saw you’d quoted from Alice Miller - this T I’m spinning out about actually recommended that I read a particular Alice Miller book (I haven’t read any of her stuff yet but know about her) and to read your quote I have to think wtf the stupid woman is telling me to read something she obviously has read yet she still doesn’t get what I’m on about????? And the image of prison warders is so accurate - that’s been my experience with nearly every T I’ve ever seen - like they are vigilant about ‘unacceptable’ feelings and seem to spend all their time steering me AWAY from the expression of such feelings into an intellectual discussion of the whys and wherefores and how to ‘change’ so as not to feel them (specifically, anger but also tears of the ‘poor little me’ type etc.)

Wow you have explained so much so clearly to me thank you so much for that. It’s like you are mirroring back to me my set up exactly, and what you have with your T is exactly what I’m looking for.

quote:

I also have that rigid set up. I was so relieved to find my T, I thought my feelings would just come pouring forth. Hah! It has taken eight months and there have only been a few times recently when I've been able to feel without shutting it back down. Most of the time I'm caught up in trying to "figure everything out" intellectually, or trying to clamp down on my feelings because they are "wrong" or inconvenient to others or whatever. I just did it again in my last session and I came away from it feeling so frustrated. So what you are saying is so true. I don't need a T who intellectualizes or judges or cracks a whip, not when I already do that myself. What I need is a T who allows and invites me to feel. And that's exactly what my T does.

You’ve said so well here the stuck situation I’m in - that I just KNOW I have oceans of feelings that are desperate to just BE, to come out - and there have been times when I’ve managed to convince a T that all I want to do is feel, so there they are sitting expectantly waiting for me to start ‘emoting’ (to use a recently learned word lol) - just like that. And they look at me and I look at them and nothing happens, because they don’t seem to realize I’m actually fighting tooth and nail NOT to feel, despite that I really WANT to, that’s my set up. So I can’t just ‘feel’ to order - that’s why I’m in damn therapy, to get help with letting my feelings out, as you rightly emphasize, in safety, in an environment of warmth acceptance and genuine sympathy.

And it’s your words ‘allows’ and ‘invites’ you to feel that’s exactly what I’m trying to get across to all the Ts I’ve seen - that really is the bottom line, to be allowed to feel (with all the connotations that being ‘allowed’ to do something brings up), to be invited, encouraged to feel whatever I happen to be feeling.

quote:

Now with this T, all the attempts at judging, interpretation, what does this mean, what do I do about it - all that comes from me. Actually in some cases, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, AFTER I've had a chance to feel the feelings I need to feel. Then what needs to happen (if anything) will fall into place. But usually what happens is I (or they, with former T's) try to interpret too soon and it ends up getting in my way. Like putting the proverbial cart before the horse. And I stay stuck.

Again SG, exactly! You’ve put that so well - I especially relate to where you say ‘then what needs to happen (if anything) will fall into place’. That’s been my sense all along - just let me get the feelings out, let me experience what it’s like to feel what I do feel (as ok) and whatever needs to happen will happen all by itself - the actual act of feeling something as ok will be for me the big change - everything else will follow on naturally from that. Well that’s my belief anyway so I’m really glad you wrote that, makes me feel that it’s not just something I’m making up to avoid doing ‘proper’ therapy work.

SG I am so happy for you, that you are doing such fundamental work with a really good T - and thank you again for saying everything you have SO clearly - it’s gone a really LONG way to validating stuff in me that was rapidly turning into something that was making me feel like there really is something major wrong with me.

quote:

would you mind if I ask her if she has any advice on how you can find a T like this?

Oh yes please! And could you also make me an appointment to see her as well . No I’m serious, yes if she has any advice that would be so good.

The trouble of course is that I’m in England, and I’m beginning to think this is an English failing - that psychology as taught over here tends to be lightyears behind the American trends. Stiff upper lip and all that crap. (Sorry to anyone English who actually does have a T who deals in feelings - I’m really just venting, trying to find a reason for not being able to find a T who does know what I’m talking about.)

Jones thank you so much too - it’s made so much difference to me to have you validate what I’m on about - now all I need is to find this T. Maybe there will be a miracle and the one I’m seeing tomorrow actually GETS what I’m talking about. I live in eternal hope.

Kashley was just about to post this when I saw your reply - thank you too, it all helps to hear that people DO know what I’m talking about. I hope you find that your T DOES deal in feelings - maybe it’s just that she is building trust right now (something I would definitely need before being able to throw myself into ANY feeling).

quote:

In my opinion, it seems like feeling should come first, because that's the only way you can ever be able to fully grasp what happened in the past, as well as deal with the present.

You have said exactly what I think too. To me that seems really obvious, self evident, shouldn’t need explaining. So how come I can’t seem to find a T who gets it? Sorry, rhetorical question that one. Frustrating doesn’t even begin to describe it - but at least I don’t feel so alien now. Thank you.

Lamplighter

LL

I am glad you are realising that what you are asking for in therapy is not different to what so many people want - that it is once more not YOU with the problem.

And I can so go with the feelings first thing. I have tried for so long to sort my situation out by understanding and intellectualising, hoping for a breakthrough that would stop me from having to feel. And of course I can't. I have done a lot of work around the big issues, but of course the big issues remain because I have been so wary of my feelings. It's taken me years to realise this - my T has known and told me for ages, but I didn't want to listen and she always says that everything must come from me in my own time, if not it will not work or last, and she is so true. So now I am allowing myself to feel, very slowly and very painfully too, but I have her beside me to make sense of it all AFTER I have felt and that helps enormously. Kashley is so right about needing to do all that first, the oast can be so muddled that sometimes what happened can lnly be sorted when I've felt it and put it in its rightful place - then can deal with how it affects me in the here and now.

I think you are so right about the Englishness of our therapy. We are not good at accepting or talking about feelings here - seeking therapy is seen as a failing or taboo by many here, which kind of sums it up; most people are taught the 'stiff upper lip' is the way forward - until they fall flat on their face I guess. LL don't give up, I have a brilliant therapist here, so they do exist. She positively encourages me to feel (would secretly probably do anything for me TO feel!!) and will walk alongside me no matter what I do or say....lets me feel, then helps me make sense of it afterwards. Perfect...unless of course you are me, who digs her feet in constantly because she is terrified of feeling. But she just bides her time and slowly I am learning to trust me and her. I really, really wish you could have the same sort of experience.

LL is this a new T tomorrow or the same one again? Sorry if you've said already - I must try and keep up!! Whichever though, all the best, will be thinking of you,

starfish

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
...so there they are sitting expectantly waiting for me to start ‘emoting’...

ROTFLMAO!!! This reminds me of a couple of horrid sessions with my former T, where I was sitting in front of him with my list of "transference" thoughts and feelings I wanted to discuss, and he would look very serious and business-like, and would say "Okay, GO!" I'm surprised he didn't wave a checkered flag. Needless to say, it didn't work - I froze up something terrible. Which really irritated him. Maybe there are other people who can "emote" on demand - but I'm definitely not one of them!

Emote, emote, already!! That's going to give me the giggles now every time I think of it.

SG

LL,
Reading what you've said and all of the responses has brought to mind for me my Ts MOST important quality that has made him the perfect T for me. He comes to a session with NO expectations or agenda. He has a way of "being" with me no matter where I go, with no pressure to go anywhere at all. It took me a while to actually realize he meant it. At one point I became intensely frustrated with his refusal to tell me what he wanted (I threatened to throw things at him ) It finally dawned on me that he was giving me a safe, contained space in which I could discover who I was, at my own pace and in my own way. Don't get me wrong, as my feelings have come out, he has worked to see my patterns and understand myself, and at times he has challenged or pushed me (velvet bulldozer mode as I so affectionately call it), but always respectful of me.

I told him once that I had been so trained to worry about other people's needs and feelings and desires before mine that the ONLY way I could actually discover what they were, was his ability to not only keep himself out of the room but his expectations of what I would do in a session. This freed me up to do what I needed and wanted to.

He once told me that he had a patient that was silent for a whole year! I was like NO! and he said "yeah, a whole damn year. She'd come in, we'd say how are you and then sit there for the rest of the session." That really stayed with me and the following session I told him that I wondered what that silence had been like. He asked me for who? and I said for both of you. He said he had learned how to wait. She had learned that someone thought she was important enough to wait for.

So I think both wanting somewhere to feel your feelings and express them but not have to do so on command are reasonable things to want and expect. And honestly, it's how the healing happens. We have to relate in a right-brain to right-brain way to heal. And that means we need to feel.

My T and I have discussed the whole intellectual vs feelings process on many occasions and the fact that we don't learn what we need to in therapy cognitively. If we did, they could just hand us a book and say "have a nice life." We have to feel it and then feel understood and important enough to be listened to in order to heal and understand our worth (I refer you to my ee cummings quote). We actually have a shorthand for the whole discussion "I know that you know"

You deserve someone who can actually help you heal while respecting the person that you are.

AG

AG, thank you for sharing your T's story about the woman who was silent for a whole year. The lessons they both learned is hitting me in a profound way:

quote:

He said he had learned how to wait. She had learned that someone thought she was important enough to wait for.

This is exactly what I am most grateful to my T for, that she "waits" for me when I go quiet. It seems like such a simple thing, but it makes all the difference. Actually I can't think of anything anyone could do that would make me feel more valued and loved, than for them to simply give me their time, their attention, and to wait for me.

I wonder what that lady talked about when she finally started talking. And I wonder if anyone else had ever heard it before.

LL, you ARE worth "waiting" for! And even though the search for a T has been (understandably) wearying, somethings inside you knows that you are worth it, because you are still reaching out, even after having been let down so many times! It is interesting that this T recommended Alice Miller to you. Please let us know how it goes in your third session, I will be thinking of you.

Hugs,
SG

Oh AG I thought your T was talking about me....my first year of therapy was very quiet. As much as i wanted to be there, all i seemed to say was ive got nothin to say. My T would say maybe your not ready to say anything.

Im so glad she waited for me because now we are starting to get somewhere.

LL I sorry ive not posted a reply to you but i have been reading and thinkig about you x

Hev

Oh that was me. Utterly silent about anything that was important - I'd sit and think 'how long can this silence go on for?' I think it was 11 months before I said a single word about the abuse and then that was what it was, just single words. And all the time she knew, but sat and waited for it to be right for me and I will alaways be grateful for that. I know I would have been out of the door never to return if I'd been questioned or pushed in any way - I was just waiting for one wrong move on her part then I would have been off.

And AG, I so wanted my T to take the lead, tell me what to do - after all wasn't that what I was paying her for?? But it's taken me years to realise that I need to lead and she will come with me, right alongside me, but I need to learn to take back that control. That saying, when I have been so vulnerable that I needed her there for safety, she led me until I was able to take the reins again.

SG I so agree with what you noted about LL's post

quote:

...so there they are sitting expectantly waiting for me to start ‘emoting’

Oh I would just hate that too. Aaaagghh! I hate having to do anything on demand - too much pressure and I back off straight away. And yes, if I didn't run I would definitely freeze. And I don't know if some can emote on demand, I have friends who can cry at the drop of a hat, I suppose we all carry our emotions in different places, some nearer the surface than others I guess.

LL thought about you lots today, starfish's legs all still crossed for you,

starfish

quote:

Oh that was me. Utterly silent about anything that was important - I'd sit and think 'how long can this silence go on for?'

Oh, yes...It's horrible, isn't it? I tried to be comfortable with all of the silence in my last session, but it was hard. But AG's post gave me a lot to think about - reading about how her T handled silence is so profound. Nonetheless, it's still hard. Even if I have something important that I want to say, it's so hard for me to take the lead and be out with it...sometimes I just hope that conversation will come to a point that it's relevant to bring it up. Ridiculous - I'm trying to be better, but it's hard.

Lamplighter - I'm thinking about you!! I hope so much that you are able to get something out of this session. You deserve everything that you have posted about.

BB

What indeed - it's a difficult one. In the long run you need to talk and get it out, but that is easier said than done. I spent years waiting to talk, thought I never should, could or would - always too risky by far. What if she didn't get it or didn't want to hear? It has to be the right time for you and with the right person BB, but sometimes you just have to take a deep breath and a little risk - and then get ready to run like mad afterwards. But the times I have taken a risk with my T, it's felt initially worse because shame and self blame ususally end up complicating everything, but in the long run evey time, I know I've moved onwards as a result.

I don't know if this will help or not - we all have our own individual and very personal reasons for not talking. It's so very hard ((BB))

starfish

Oh and the other thing is, if I can't bear the silence - sometimes I can and sometimes I can't, I ask a question or just say something, anything(!) to break it. Well she normally realises and lets me off the hook for a while, I have a breather and a rethink, before we go back to where we were... usually then it feels easier. FACT: Ts will always win the 'keep silences longest' game

starfish