quote:

i guess the crux of it is, i'm wondering about defenses. how do you know what they are and when you are using them? i just feel like maybe i have defenses that i've used my entire life, and as a result i am not aware of them, so how can i "lower" them? long post for a simple question. does anybody have any thoughts?

Well, first of all a disclaimer. I am by no means an expert on any of this, just in case that isn't obvious. Defense mechanisms and their operations can get really complicated I think. Experts write books on this and stuff.

But, from my point of view which is based pretty much solely on my own therapy experiences, I am wondering if it might be more useful to ask yourself what you might be defending against rather than what your exact defenses might be. I think our defenses become very much a part of us-- woven into who we are, operationally, and how we interact within our worlds. It can be really difficult to separate that out without feeling like you are disassembling yourself-- which is obviously uncomfortable and maybe impossible.

But if you focus on trying to identify the emotions, or thoughts, or feelings you are defending against, and begin slowly to become more comfortable with accepting and experiencing them-- you may find certain aspects of yourself changing. It may be that your need for certain defensive behaviors is lessened, and so you have more of a range of possible responses in any given situation or interaction. Life begins to have more of a sense of play, there is more spontaneity, adaptability, and fluidity in your experience of yourself within the world you encounter.

This at any rate is my theory on how it works, or could work, this matter of reducing defenses.

Best of luck to you, CD. I hope breaking with your T has not been terribly tough for you, but if it is, know you can always reach out on this forum and there are people who will understand.

P.S. It is also kind of funny you mention it, because I happen to be reading and working through a self help book on defense mechanisms currently. It's called, "Why Do I Do That: Psychological Defense Mechanisms and the Hidden Ways They Shape Our Lives," by Joseph Burgo.

It's pretty good. I would recommend it on the whole, although I don't agree with all he writes. It's also very challenging. I'm currently on chapter 3 and having all sorts of resistance coming up to completing the journaling and thought exercises, lol.

Anyway, here is the link, just in case it could be of use to you or others reading this.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Do-T...rds=why+do+i+do+that

Folks
Well first off I am very interested inattachment/avoidant/defenses situations. Largly due to the fact my T never broached the subject with me and I am too nervy to bring them up. As far as I can see they are important as some where along the line we need to let go off our defenses and trust those who want us to trust them. At lest that is how I see it, untill such a subject comes up with my T [hopefully they will] I may never know how tough those things can be.
ND

CD, now I have understood what you wrote on my post. We are similar in our dilema, I think that maybe HIC has got it in that we need to firstly work out what we are defending against. I, like you, have obviously been using defenses for such a long time that they have become a way of life so we no longer know what is us and what is not.

Have to give it a go and see what happens. Scary.

HIC, i truly appreciate your responses. you've given me alot to think about. particularly, your question about what i am defending against vs what my defenses are. that is enlightening and i appreciate you opening that door! i think i know the answer to that question, but can't answer here, at least not now. thank you!
i want to write more on this, but things come slow to me. i just want to let you know HIC that i appreciate your response.

oh, also that i have recently been aware of Dr. Burgo and have been delving into his stuff. ther some good insight (for me) in his blog about the invisible child. again, thanks!

scars, i also appreciate your comments. i hope to hear from you again soon!

CD this topic fits nicely with something I’ve just realized about myself, in terms of defences. I suppose it’s a truism that if something is a defence, we don’t actually know it because then it wouldn’t work as a defence .

I like HIC’s point too, that it might be more useful to look at what we might be defending against – though I have to say that that can be very very frightening if you haven’t got enough detachment and distance to look at it objectively. If you’re not aware of what the defences are in that case, you can end up getting really freaked out, the defences themselves make sure of that! Lol it’s a vicious sort of circle isn’t it?

The thing I’ve sort of seen recently, is that no matter what the defence or what I’m defending against, fear is operating in there somewhere. So instead of chasing defences and what the defence is defending against, a way of stepping outside the chicken and egg circle is to chase the feelings instead, the fear. Oh yeah, that sounds like fun doesn’t it. Not.

The thing is, that without someone to work with in dealing with defences, you could end up just going round in ever diminishing circles. I know that's how come I end up getting stuck and periodically throw myself back into therapy, there are some defences you just can't overcome on your own . Your own defences will make sure that you don’t see things you might need to see to heal. So I’m sorry you’re not with a T anymore. Are you thinking of putting yourself back in therapy at all? Forgive me if you’ve already explained all this elsewhere, I don’t remember if you have.

Hope you’re doing ok. Hugs to you ((((((((((( CD )))))))))

LL

Had another thought about defences generally. I guess I’ve always assumed that defences are negative, something unpleasant and dysfunctional, and it’s just occurred to me that I have quite a lot of what are probably defences, that are actually positive feeling, pleasant even (at least so long as I don’t look squarely at them, then they turn like the power from the Ark of the Raiders movie into evil twisted things .)

I suppose activities like drinking alcohol, getting off your face on drugs, overindulging in food all have a pleasant positive side even though they can be defences too, so it shouldn’t surprise me that some of the stuff that does make me feel good at times, is also defensive. Makes me very sad though because if the only things that make me feel safe good and ok sometimes are actually defences, and I have to give them up for the sake of healing, well, not sure that’s a very tempting idea at all .

There are some defences that are outright negative and I’d be happy to be rid of them, but it’s different with things that actually make me feel somewhat better. Anyone else know what I’m talking about here?

LL

I wonder if we give our defences a tough time - I mean, they developed for a reason and their goal is to keep us safe and make us feel ok. Yes, they may be over-vigilant...
I don't know - I'm trying not to see them as a negative thing, but to sort of be compassionate towards them - and me. Of course this only works when in place of relative safety... As soon as I feel unsure, I'm back where I was in a flash and don't realise what's happened til after the event.
I know I'm defending against feeling cared for because that hurts. And against giving stuff up because they have been part of me for ages...and yes, they're part of the protection stuff also.
I think it's all about balance...
Perhaps this makes no sense, sorry - tough day!

I don't think defenses are altogether a bad thing, either. . . they help us deal. It is not always safe or possible to face our emotions head on, and meanwhile there is life to live and duties to trudge through, so we find something or several somethings that let us cope.

I think it's a problem more when the defenses become so entrenched and rigid that they prevent us from experiencing/accepting authentic parts of ourselves when it really would be okay and safe to do so. That can feel limiting and stifling and frustrating. At least it has for me. Maybe from a psychological growth perspective it doesn't matter so much if the defense is benign like watching funny movies or harmful like SI'ing, although pragmatically speaking the difference can of course be huge in it's effects! Harmful addictions bring a set of problems all their own.

Just some more thoughts. I always find this an intriguing topic.

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The thing is, that without someone to work with in dealing with defences, you could end up just going round in ever diminishing circles. I know that's how come I end up getting stuck

Could totally relate to this!

originally posted by ((( HIC ))):

quote:

I think our defenses become very much a part of us-- woven into who we are, operationally, and how we interact within our worlds. It can be really difficult to separate that out without feeling like you are disassembling yourself-- which is obviously uncomfortable and maybe impossible.

But if you focus on trying to identify the emotions, or thoughts, or feelings you are defending against, and begin slowly to become more comfortable with accepting and experiencing them-- you may find certain aspects of yourself changing. It may be that your need for certain defensive behaviors is lessened, and so you have more of a range of possible responses in any given situation or interaction. Life begins to have more of a sense of play, there is more spontaneity, adaptability, and fluidity in your experience of yourself within the world you encounter.

HIC, i think that's all very insightful! if you don't mind, i'm going to print that out because it really resonates with me. i'm going to dissect that and try to integrate that into my life. i think that's been a struggle in therapy from day one for me ... i've always felt as though going to therapy felt like i was literaly stripping down to nakedness, and that's held me back in therapy, i think. just the whole surrendering of yourself to another person, and knowing this is "just" a professional relationship that is designed to end can just seem too much. to me, even though i became very fond of my T, i held back because of feeling like the joke's on me. i knew it wasn't "real". this has to end. you get close, you get attached, then you get burned by having to terminate. and i know this all has ties to things in my past, but it doesn't make it any easier.

anyway, i like what you say about trying to identify the emotions, thoughts, and feelings i'm defending against and becoming more accepting and comfortable with them. i think that's huge for me.

((( LL ))) thanks for your input. i think you're totally right about the fear. you learn to use defenses because you're afraid of something. and the defenses help to cover up that fear. i think in my case, the fear was in realizing that not only was i having feelings for T, but he admitted rather loosely that he had feelings for me. FREAK OUT! that's beyond my comfort level. enter evasiveness. DEFENSE! fear of being close and then being betrayed, i gather. i have lots to noodle on here, and i will.

i also agree with you, LL,

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Your own defences will make sure that you don’t see things you might need to see to heal.

hey, thanks for the hugs!
i know i need to be in a therapeutic relationship if i am ever to learn how to be in a healthy relationship and just to get "better" in general. i have a lot of mixed feelings about this. on a financial level, i can't afford it. i know some people ask for a sliding-scale fee. money is a huge trigger for me with alot of history, so i would never even think about asking him for that. and if he were to offer, it would take some careful consideration. i am broken-hearted about not seeing him anymore, and at the same time i feel liberated and relieved. as much as i liked him, i think the paternal transference was too much. i would nearly writhe in-between sessions. just feeling alot of pressure to perform, pressure to be perfect, and at the same time wanting him to know i'm not perfect and what i'd really like is for somebody to rescue me. but knowing rationally that that's not going to happen because it's all just a fantasy. and i think that rescue fantasy is one of my issues that i bring the defenses in to protect ... or hide. yes, i would like to go further in therapy and i hope i can in the near future. but i have to be honest and say that i'm not hopeful.

yes, LL, i know what you're talking about. for me i like to imbibe. most definitely it is a defense against feeling things you'd rather not feel. for me it's lonliness, sadness, regret, hopelessness. that sounds pathetic and i don't mean to sound pathetic, just relating my reality. alcohol is used to block myself from those feelings. they don't feel good! alcohol is a temporary solution. it works, and for awhile it feels good. i know it's not good for me and it impinges on my getting better. yeah, the things that are good for you are somehow different, though. somehow they're not as "fulfilling". i wonder why that is...

hi, Iris. you DO make sense! but i don't think anybody here is saying defenses are bad. i don't think they are, necessarily. we developed them most likely when we were kids, and they are the things that protected us from overwhelm or whatever. they DO serve a purpose. we do need to keep ourselves protected, because there are people/things/events in the world that justify that protection. and when other weren't there to protect us, our defenses were. so yes, we need to be compassionate towards them. i think the problem enters when we use them to the point of excluding potential close, meaningful relationships in particular. i think that IS what life is all about, after all.

and i struggle with that, too, Iris. ...

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giving stuff up because they've been a part of me for ages

that's the truly scary part, i think. although i don't necessarily know exactly what my defenses are simply because they've been a part of me since i can remember, it scares the shit out of me to lower them. and the lowering of them makes me vulnerable and removes what i perceive to be "protective". Iris, thanks for your input, it is very helpful!

lastly, HIC and LL, i know i can end up in a circular trap unless i have someone to work through this stuff with. i hope i'm not trapped. i hope i can go back and work on this with my T. i don't think i could ever start this all over again ... i actually know i couldn't. i do know that at least i can come here and get a ton of good, genuine support. thanks for all your input, everybody!