here's saturday's post about my session



Posted 01 October 2011 10:16 PM 01 October 2011 10:16 PM


I went to my session this morning and it was difficult and painful. T asked me if I was worried about him being away next week and not having sessions. I said yes. I told him I would miss him. He told me that wanting to connect with something or someone you value is normal and feeling some pain in its absence was to be expected but that I made it more painful because of my fear that the relationship wasn't secure and it was threatened. He told me that relationships are always going through cycles of connection and disconnection and that longing (or pain) is an inherent part of relationship. I feel like he pushed me right into the pit of despair because he has told me in the past that he thinks I will always have doubts and fears about the relationship because that is how my mind operates.

In most of my life I form relationships with people I see almost everyday and I can take the emotional temperature of the relationship regularly. So my friends are people I work with, my husband, and other parents whose kids go to the same school and activities as mine so I see them often. When people stop being around me so much (move away or kids stop activities) I struggle to keep up the relationship and usually let it die down naturally (and so do they).

I told him that my fears about the relationship were always there and he said they were frequent and painful but he didn't know about always. He said it must be frustrating for me that even though I trust him in many ways and we've worked through so much that I can still be so afraid. I think it is frustrating for him but he didn't admit that. I asked him again why we were discussing this now and he said we were talking about my fear about next week which is just a bigger version of what goes on day to day between sessions. I said that fear about the relationship ending was reasonable because he certainly had proved to me that it was futile and painful. He said he didn't feel that way only I did. I told him therapy was all about ending. He thought I meant eventually and tried to compare it to when you talk to a six year old about when they grow up and move away from home and they look at you like you are crazy. He said at that point in development being told that you should grow up and become independent just seems heartbreaking and like being rejected by your parents but later in life it would seem healthy and what you wanted to do. I told him I didn't like kids analogies because I think your connection to your children is different. He said therapy was a process and at some point leaving wouldn't seem like rejection but would seem healthy and what I wanted to do. He said my fear was like constantly reminding myself it was going to end and hurting myself because it felt like rejection.

I told him I wasn't worried about leaving eventually forever that I was actually talking about leaving today at the end of the session. He told me that he controls the time and says the hour is up and after that I can only connect with him afterwards in a limited specific way and I feel powerless because of that but all relationships have cycles of connection and reconnection. I cried a lot because he is right and it is painful to hear. Then he told me that because of our scheduled meetings I knew when reconnection was going to occur but I didn't trust it because sometimes I struggle to connect with him during a session and only am able to connect at the end of a session and it is too late. That upset me because I think that happens a lot less recently but he doesn't seem to notice.

So I got very upset by this point because I started to feel like therapy was just an endless painful experience for me and it will always be that way. I told my T I couldn't believe he decided to have this conversation today just before he left because it was like he decided to maximize distress. He said that wasn't his intention but he could see that was happening. He told me that the relationship wasn't threatened I was just afraid it was. I said you are implying that I'm doing it wrong, I'm connecting at the wrong time, I'm worrying about the wrong thing so it feels like a threat. He told me he wasn't blaming me for things and he wasn't demanding it change instead he was describing what was happening and he wanted me to know that it didn't have to keep happening that way. My fear doesn't have to keep taking over and things can change even though you can't force change to happen right now, it can occur over time.

And the session was over. He made some joke about the amount of Kleenex I had stuffed in my pockets because it makes a mess in the wash if you forget to remove it which would have been impossible to forget because I had a third of a box wadded up into two pockets. Then we confirmed my appointment for 10 days time and said goodbye.

I'm so upset because I think everything he said was true but it didn't help. He didn't seem to get how much I needed him to acknowledge that it was painful for me. He didn't reassure me when I was talking about my fear that therapy was hopeless except by telling me he didn't think so and really maybe I'm not like other people and it is hopeless for me just not for the rest of his patients. He also didn`t give me any ideas that might help me with the break or discuss any strategies I could use. I was mad about his reference to me connecting at the wrong time because I've been better about connecting earlier in the session lately but I've also called him a lot more frequently lately and I think that is the problem. I feel like the relationship is threatened when he doesn't respond to my phone calls or email. He does respond but sometimes the response isn't enough. When we talk about the misunderstandings around those events he seems to be okay with me contacting him outside of sessions, like recently when he told me I could email him at home if I needed to but then today I felt like he was telling me that how I was connecting was wrong. I feel like there is a mixed message around it and even though it would be easier if I only talked to him in session in some ways that would feel like a punishment now. He is away next week on a training course so he will be unavailable until Friday evening and I was going to ask him if I could email him then but with how the session went I didn`t bother.

I feel like maybe I could get therapy right if I started over with someone new who didn`t know how needy I was and if I kept strict boundaries on myself from the beginning but why bother. It wouldn`t be worth it if I had to hide myself from a therapist to get therapy to work. It is going to be a long 10 days.

hi incognito... I'm glad you put your post back up. I know how painful and slow therapy seems at times but I have seen your progress. I also think you have a good T who cares about you and does his best to understand what you are feeling. You know, one thing I don't worry about with my T now... I don't worry about leaving. He has told me that I decide when to leave and even when I get better I can decide to stay in therapy. Of course it will probably not be with the same frequency but I will still see him. And so I was able to put that out of my head. I wonder if you could ask your T to help you to stop focusing on the end because it makes you lose sight of the present.

I'll be back again tomorrow but it's sinfully late for me and I need to get to sleep.

Hang in there
TN

Hi Incognito,

I read your post the first time you posted it but didn't reply at the time, so I'm glad you've found the courage to repost. You sound like you’re having a really hard time at the moment I’ve noticed that you’ve been feeling progressively more hopeless and unhappy with your T (or rather therapy) for quite a while now and it seems like your T’s break has pushed you into needing to DO something about it.

Received wisdom says well hang in there and work through all this stuff because that’s the way to get beyond it, though if you’ve been feeling progressively more disenchanted with how things are going, maybe an alternative to quitting altogether is to take a break yourself? Get yourself out of the situation that is causing you so much pain and take some time out to see how you feel away from T?

This might sound like I’m invalidating your feelings and I don’t mean to do that, I just think that your T talking about the issues you have with endings, and bringing up heavy things towards end of sessions and needing to process through out of session contact isn’t critical nor telling you you’re doing therapy ‘wrong’ – it sounds more like he’s concerned about how it’s making you feel and is looking for ways to work on it with you so you get to a better and safer place with it all. Which is easy for me to say because I’m looking at it from the outside in, I do get how crappy that would make you feel and how it would feel critical and like you’re doing it all ‘wrong’. The positive thing though in what your T said was that he’s not asking you to CHANGE. So I don’t get the impression that he thinks you’re doing anything wrong, and you’re not unfixable either

I like the idea of your having the consult T as a back up T – though maybe having her to go to when things get tough with current T might end up being counterproductive? I hope you can find some help from her when you see her next.

I know this is not a one off feeling for you and it’s been building for some time, but I can’t help thinking that your feeling so hopeless is being compounded by T being on a break. Have you spoken to him yet about feeling so hopeless and that you’re thinking of quitting therapy altogether? Maybe that’s a really good thing to bring up in your next session after his break, he might not realize how deeply hurt and discouraged you have been feeling?

Hm sorry I seem to be dishing out advice here and not giving too much in the way of support – so just want to add that I’m really sorry you’re feeling so rubbish and I hope very much that you find a way to break through to finding positive things to keep you working with T. But if you really believe it's just not helping, I hope you can find the courage to leave.

(((((( Incognito ))))))

LL

(((((INCOGNITO))))))

I can feel your pain and know just how awful it is. Been there many times myself. How to get out of the cycle of the painful neediness and longing?

I agree with you about your T bringing it up right before he went away. He could have left you in a better place. That's happened to me twice with my T and I've often wondered why the heck they do that? If it makes you feel any better, and I know it won't but I'll tell you anyway, they do say that sometimes people grow a lot when their therapists go away. Unfortunately, the growth is through the pain. I think I grew after my T went on vacation - although let me tell you, it was one of the most painful times in my life.

When he went away, I went to see a trauma T also. She was helpful and I took the things she said back to my T. What she said helped him but the one thing she said to me that really struck me was, that some people just can't process their trauma. That was a wakeup call for me because I knew right then and there that no matter what, no matter how painful, if a therapist is willing to stick by me, I'm willing to work - even if I don't always do it right, even if I resist sometimes. I always try my best and work as hard as I can.

What that consult T said made me stop and wonder, why wouldn't someone be able to work through their trauma? And the answer I came up with is that it's too painful. That was also a consistent theme in an article I read about allowing dependency needs, that the only caveat being that some people *use* dependency as a way to avoid doing the grieving that they have to do. *Use* was my word. I can't remember how it was worded in the article.

And, so my friend, I don't think it's that you are doing anything wrong. Therapy IS painful. It has to be your decision, whether or not you want to stick with it. No one would ever fault you for quiting or taking a break.

So I think it's a great idea to go on a consult. I've done it 7 times throughout my own therapy and I've gotten different things from each consult which have all moved my therapy forward.

And the best part is, Incognito, is that your T IS coming back. It's just a temporary separation in the relationship. I saw so many great things in your post. You listed all the things your T didn't do for you. Those are your needs. They are right there on paper, in black and white. Now you can bring them back to him and say, I needed you to do x. I needed you to do Y. And I still need you to do those things for me. The pain is not from T. The pain is from not having those needs met in the past. The healing is going to come when you bring those needs back to T and he meets them.

((((((INCOGNITO))))))

Thinking of you,

Liese

(((((incognito)))))

I'm sorry to hear that the pain is becoming so bad in therapy, that you feel you just can't manage it anymore. It did get that way with me too, and I know how debilitating it can become. However, I am glad that it sounds like you have a solid T, who is honest with you, and caring. I'm sorry that it hurts so much.

Something you said struck me so much:

quote:

I feel like maybe I could get therapy right if I started over with someone new who didn`t know how needy I was and if I kept strict boundaries on myself from the beginning but why bother. It wouldn`t be worth it if I had to hide myself from a therapist to get therapy to work. It is going to be a long 10 days.

Incognito, I think you are absolutely right, and that is why there is no way through this except straight through. It doesn't matter what you do, you will still hurt. You will just hurt in different ways. I have a new therapist, and I am *extremely* strict about boundaries with him...because of what happened with Guru T. I don't email, I don't contact outside of session- except to change an appointment, and to ask for a referral for a friend once. Yeah, I guess therapy is working, but...it also feels very "unreal" to me, as if I am disconnected from the experience somehow. I sure wish I could have stayed with my T, because that area is pretty well crusted over now, if that makes sense. It is probably just something I will have to live with from now on. What Liese said struck me very much, about some people not being able to process their trauma. I feel that way about what happened with my T. I do *not* think that you are one of those people...in fact, I think you *are* processing your trauma, in many different ways. For example, when you let your T know how much it hurts to be apart from him, and to think of therapy ending, you are processing the trauma of being abandoned, I suspect. I like what TN said, about letting the ending of therapy go...you are not there, yet, incognito. It's not time, quite simply because you are not ready. Been there, done that, with my last T, and although I was not ready, he kept bringing it up and pushing for it, pushing for breaks, pushing for marital therapy, pushing for me to have less frequent sessions- pushing me away. Telling me that his pushing me away was "for my own good." Telling me over and again, that his pushing me away *proved* that he was a good therapist. As it turns out he was right...but he wouldn't have been right if he hadn't been pushing me away in the first place! Sorry to talk about me, but I hope it helps cause- I'm just really, really so glad you are not in that situation! You have a T who is clearly willing to work with you for as long as you need to, and though it is confusing and painful the relationship is...he is your therapist- and wants to be your therapist, forever as long as you still want him to be.

Yes, ask to have your needs met...though scary and oh-so-painful to do, it cannot hurt more than what you experience right now. So I agree with Liese...tell him what he did that hurt, and tell him what would make it feel better. show him your "owwies." Even if he cannot meet all the things that would make it feel better, it will be enormously relieving just to tell him about it, and have him sooth the pain as best he can. Just to know he cares. You have nothing to lose. And he'll be there, again, for you, holding steady when he comes back.

I hope that you will write to him each day in a journal for only that purpose, and plan to share the thoughts in it with him when he comes back. Buy yourself a lovely journal, and make it your place to talk to him when he is not around. Plan to share the thoughts in it with him, over the next years. I would even email him, and tell him that is what you plan to do, and just see what he says. If you promise him and yourself that you will do it every day, no matter what...it will help the days go a bit faster. I named my Journal "Dr. *****" " and started every entry with "Dear Dr. *****" for awhile. all my entries were to him. I ended up never sharing them, as it turns out, because he didn't want to be my therapist long term- but it helped me get through some painful times. You have the option of sharing them...that is really good!

It hurts, but you will survive. Keep pushing through for your own healing.

Oh I hope some of this helps and that it doesn't cause worse pain.

hugs,

BB

((Incognito))

Oh, love, I am so sorry to hear that you are feeling so out of sorts with T and therapy at the moment. I hope that you can get back on track, and feel secure again soon. I love the whole you have to go through it to get to the other side. It reminds me of that children's book called, "Going on a Bear Hunt!" Have you ever read it? It's about these kids going hunting for a bear, but on the way they encounter many obstacles like a marsh, grass, wind, snow.....and the verse is "we can't go over it, we can't go under it, we've got to go THROUGH it." I see that as applying to therapy. We are on a major bear hunt..looking to define ourselves, our identity. We hit road blocks in the process...but the shortest distance between two points is a straight line! Love, you are on your journey. If you stick with it, trudge through the mud, let the rain and wind whip you in the face a bit, you are going to come out on the other side stronger and better than ever before.

Much love and hugs being sent your way!

--B

Thanks for your replies everyone. I am feeling really confused.

TN, I sometimes think there is progress and many areas of my life have improved but then I get right back to this hole of hopelessness and worthlessness and I feel like the improvements were mirages. Hope you got some sleep.

LL, thank you for your thoughts. I find it interesting that you think I'm progressively more hopeless and unhappy with T because to me it feels more like what I described above but I have a lot of trouble judging over time because whatever emotional state I'm in now seems most pervasive and important. I also think my T is good and doing his job I just don't know if I have the resilience and strength some other people hear on the board do to keep trying. As other things in my life have improved, my parenting, my relationship with my husband, setting boundaries with my parents and sibling, it seems like the most painful thing in my life now is my relationship with my T and I know that it was helped me make so many good changes. I think I will have to talk more with the consult T and my T when he comes back about it and maybe the possiblility of taking a break and building up some reserves for future work. You are right that my T isn't blaming me and insisting I change and from the distance of a few days I can see that he may be trying to work on things by exposing them but it is painful to listen to.

Liese, thanks for your thoughts. This is my third time getting a consult. I wonder if I can't process trauma which is something I should ask T about. Consult T told me she was aware that I was reporting with her and that was different than processing and she wondered if I was able to process things effectively although she was careful to say now as opposed to never. She also was clear about saying that my T and I had done very good work together if I could say so many areas of my life and improved and it sounded like me T really understood and was comfortable with attachment and dependence. She told me that while I might be stuck right now that things can take time and it isn't predictable how much time or that you can reach a point that you can't go any further with a particular therapist (but she was clear nothing I said or described led her to think I was at that point).

Interestingly when I read that you thought I had listed my needs in my post I didn't realize it. I had to go back and read them and I think you are referring to the paragraph second from the end. I'm not sure if I could go back and say something like I needed you to reassure me that therapy wasn't hopeless. I tend to approach subjects tentatively and hope he responds with something that helps because it feels wrong if I ask directly or maybe that it won't count if I ask directly for something. I have to think about that.

BB, thanks for your support while you are struggling with ending officially with guru T. I hope that as your therapy progesses with cowboy T you will allow more of your needs and self to come out. Thank you for letting me know you think I am processing some trauma even if it is not the trauma I am aware of. You are right that my T hasn't left or threatened me and is coming back to keep working with me even though I am scared.

Broken, I hope I can figure out whether to keep trudging through or rest for awhile without beating myself up for the decision. I'm glad your T responded so well to you telling her about your attachment. I look forward to hearing how your therapy progresses because I am sure there will be ups and downs in the future but you'll be able to remind yourself of her response.

(((Incognito)))

Your pain is palpable and I am not sure that I can offer anything more than has already been said, but I will try. For starters, I want you to know how much I can relate to your struggle. I also get the impression from your writing that your T does really care about you and the relationship and even though the timing was not ideal that he is trying to point you in a direction that might be less painful in the long run. The problem is that you have to get through a whole lot of pain to get to the less painful place where you do feel secure.

I'm not sure how much you've read about what has been going on with my T, but we've had similar issues like you described. Over time it has been getting harder rather than easier and the pain that comes up during separations and ruptures started to become more clear to me. It's unfortunate that just as I was beginning to discover this for myself and take charge that things with my T went seriously downhill and the lesson may come packaged with a fatal blow to our relationship, but I still get to take the lesson with me regardless. I think it can be summed up fairly well with what Leise said here:

quote:

What that consult T said made me stop and wonder, why wouldn't someone be able to work through their trauma? And the answer I came up with is that it's too painful. That was also a consistent theme in an article I read about allowing dependency needs, that the only caveat being that some people *use* dependency as a way to avoid doing the grieving that they have to do. *Use* was my word. I can't remember how it was worded in the article.

This is what I had figured out shortly before things went to crap with my T. I was playing a role in my own pain by continuing the dependency and contact that I knew WAS hurting me (T and I had many ruptures over it) and in continuing the contact not only was I re-enacting some things from my past trauma, but I was also avoiding the pain that I NEED to confront if I'm ever going to process this trauma. Each time we've come close enough to it where it could really be worked on at it's core I've been spooked and either resisted (in many forms) or hidden from it in the form of dependency on my T rather than facing it head on. Ironically, now that I've figured that out and am ready to really face it head on my relationship with my T has been dealt a blow that we might not survive. Part of that is my fault because in the process of figuring this all out I had one final bought of resistance because I was/am scared sh*tless to really go into this. The other reason is that in trying to face the resistance and fear the trauma was recapitulated by my T (whether she intended to or not). Regardless of whether I face this with my T or my new T it is still going to be there because it is within me. It doesn't mean that I'm broken or can't be helped (and the same applies to you) it just means that like Broken said, "we can't go over it, we can't go under it, we have to go through it." In the meantime, I took a break from T and I'm still alive and it has actually felt good to be able to choose that separation and still be okay. I also set limits on the out of session contact that would end the re-enactment that I keep putting myself through. It seems counter-intuitive but making that choice and decreasing the contact actually helped me feel LESS anxious about the relationship and less anxious overall.

One thing that has helped me to not feel so anxious about the potential loss of T (through whatever means) has been exploring all of my other options. Once I really started looking I realized that there are many other healing options out there and that makes me feel much less desperate to hang on to my T. It's not that I want to lose her, but if I do it doesn't mean that I can't still move forward and heal.

Your T will be back soon (I know it's hard to wait) and the connection will still be there. You can do this and you can survive the pain. It just sucks in the meantime.

((((INCOGNITO)))

I think I remember that you said that consult T was a trauma T? Those were very interesting things she said. When do you see her? I'm so glad you are getting support for yourself while T is gone. Did he suggest that you consult? Or did you take matters into your own hands? (If so, that was very resourceful of you!) Did he leave you with any back-up T's in case you needed to talk to someone?

Yes, it was the second to last paragraph I was referring to. And, yes, they do seem like needs to me. I've cried to my T, please don't give up on me. And he tells me he sees no reason to. But I totally get what you mean about asking for things and then not feeling like it's being genuinely given because you had to ask. Sometimes I've wondered if my T just says that but really thinks I'm a hopeless case. But as long as he is willing to keep believing in me, I'm willing to keep trying. God, wouldn't that be awful if a T said, "You're hopeless! You'll never recover." How devastating.

Even if you don't feel comfortable asking him for the things you need, they seem really important to me and I'm wondering if you can share them with him?

Incognito, there have been so many times when I wanted to stop therapy. Then I look back to where I was and I know I can't go back there. But looking forward is really scary too! And, I just feel stuck right here in the middle of a therapy I sometimes wish I didn't start. But then I just decide to focus on the moment, on right now. And I tell myself, I am who I am. I'm at where I'm at. And I have to try to love and accept myself regardless of where I am right now. It's not always easy.

Thinking of you!

lots and lots of love and hugs,

xoxoxoxxo

love,

liese

I went to another session with the consult T last night and it was very calming and helpful. She validated a lot of my feelings about how long I've been therapy, the difficulties caused by my childhood, my intense desire to talk to my T all the time. Of course she told me that wasn't possible but I needed to talk about it with my T and try to negotiate support for myself that he was willing to provide and not worry about his needs and boundaries. I told her I thought his boundaries were fine but there was something wrong with me (because I wanted too much) and that I couldn't deal with the pain and anguish of wanting it, deciding what to ask for, what I needed versus wanted, agonizing over the response. I actually felt better by last night in part because my T is away and so I have no internal conversation because I can't reach him. She didn't really comment on how to deal with that pain but I didn't feel dismissed. She suggested a new workbook called 'Coping with Trauma-Related Dissociation: Skills Training for Patients and Therapists' by Suzette Boon, Kathy Steele, Onno van der Hart.

STRM - I'm not sure how to tell if I'm using dependency and contact to avoid other pain. I do feel like I can't stop it and it is compulsive even when it isn't helping me. How do you think you realized that? Was there a point where it changed in your therapy? at first being helpful and then not?

Liese, No the consult T was my idea. My T has never suggested a back up and I've never asked. It is the third time I've gone to a back up T (this one twice) and I've found it helpful each time. This time was the first time that I really felt comfortable with the consult T and I felt that she liked talking with me which is odd for me because I don't feel like my T does (and actually usually I wouldn't think anyone does). She is quite different than my own T, very open and straight forward. She gave me a lot of opinions on me and what I struggle with acknowledging she didn't know for sure which is weird because my T doesn't. Things like suggesting that my intense anguish about contacting and then fear of his response and the way I talked about everything without getting to the point might be similar to the chaotic mess of my childhood and maybe I was trying to show my T that. Another time she pointed out that I talked about therapy like I talked about my childhood abuse, that it was something overwhelming that I didn't have control over and was being done to me and that because I felt like that it wasn't surprising it was causing me so much pain and struggle. She was clear she thought I should be in therapy and that it sounded like me and my T had a good working relationship. It was interesting because after the session I felt more relaxed than I have for awhile and I actually slept last night.

Thanks for the support and I know you are right that it would help if I could accept myself.

quote:

STRM - I'm not sure how to tell if I'm using dependency and contact to avoid other pain. I do feel like I can't stop it and it is compulsive even when it isn't helping me. How do you think you realized that? Was there a point where it changed in your therapy? at first being helpful and then not?

It's something that I've wondered about for quite some time and then Liese mentioned it as well which is why I mentioned it here. It's hard to say how I realized it because it was more of a feeling than intellectual. I noticed that when I was getting really close to grief/anger issues regarding my mother that I would have an overwhelming desire to reach out to my T. Sometimes reaching out to her would help and sometimes it would just make the pain worse but instead of staying about my mom then it was about T. I also (and T disagrees) have felt like the boundaries have shifted around a lot with my T. I've asked many times for clarification because I did NOT want to cross any boundaries and I was terrified to do so. However, it seems that no matter how hard I tried not to that I inadvertently did because they don't seem to stay constant. It was that constant entanglement in trying to figure out the boundaries that routinely diverted my attention from the core issues that caused me to need to reach out to my T in the first place. Once I figured out that I was actually feeling worse and not better then I knew what I needed to do in order to stop that. Unfortunately that knowledge intersected at a bad time with other issues with T and now we are who knows where with our relationship.

I'm glad that the consult T was helpful. I haven't read that book that you mentioned but I've read a good deal of Van der Hart's material. I think it is a good conversation to have with your T. Even if he can't give you what you need it's important to talk about why you have the need to begin with. I think that was part of what was often missing from the boundary negotiations with my T. Are you going to continue to see the consult T?

Wow, Incognito, the consult sounded so amazing. I love all her insights and how she related therapy feeling like your childhood. That was sooooo powerful. I also really like that she supported you re: needing a certain amount of emotional support during the process and maybe not having enough in place? Or enough that you feel secure with? That was a big issue for me last year with my T. I'm not sure he's ever seen anyone twice a week. It is unusual for him. And while he eventually "gave" in, he now sees that I needed and am getting the right amount of emotional support that I need. And I'm actually able to let go of the relationship (sometimes) and do other things and connect to other people. Whereas before, he was my main obsession.

This stuff hurts so much. And no one else really knows what we're going through. Although it sounds like you can talk to your H about it all. so that's good. Right now I have the right amount of emotional support from my T. But it did take negotiation and lots of talking about. I hope that you can get that part straightened out too.

When my T went away on his vacation, I felt like he totally invalidated my dependence on him, wasn't sensitive to it. I don't know if you felt like that also. Maybe that's what you meant about why he brought up what he brought up when he brought it up. Maybe he was nervous about leaving you knowing that you are dependent upon him. And maybe he didn't give you enough time to process it. He did kind of leave you high and dry.

It's interesting that you have that intense anguish about contacting him and then also fear of his response. It really sounds like she picked up on something crucial there, in that even though you may be contacting him a lot, it's actually giving you AS MUCH if not more pain than it is giving you any kind of relief or reassurance. Maybe you can work on that piece of it with your T. I had the same struggle contacting my T. And once we took care of that piece, I really feel like he is there for me and I can contact him when I need to. But as long as I was still feeling that internal struggle, it didn't matter what he did or how much reassurance he gave me, nothing helped. He actually reached out to call me on the day of one of my missed appointments and I can't tell you how much his sensitivity to my dependency really helped me.

Wow, these consults can really turn out to be super productive. Sometimes just having someone objective look into a relationship and see what is going on. Your T, though wonderful, is embroiled in your relationship and even though he may be doing everything right therapeutically, he just might be missing a piece of it that the consult picked up on.

I am so happy you had such a great outcome with her. And three chears to you for going all on your own. And it's awesome that you liked her and that you felt she liked you.

xoxo

Liese

hi incognito... well it was really interesting to read about your next session with the consultT and how she validated some of what you and your T are doing. It was good that you felt comfortable enough with her to talk about what is troubling you with your T. I think you were brave to go and talk to someone else. I wish I had taken the same initiative to do that with oldT. While perhaps that therapy could not have been saved maybe it could have ended in a less damaging place for me. Maybe I would have had the support and presence of mind to walk away myself. I think what makes this Board so valuable...sharing the knowledge and experience that helps all of us to protect ourselves and to reach out for support in places we may not have without reading about it here. We all inspire each other. I do think that your own journey has inpsired others. You work hard at your therapy and you have, as you describe above, accomplished a lot.

I think what Liese and STRM talk about regarding the pain makes sense for a lot of us. It's like when one gets too close to the core of the pain/trauma the heat is too intense and we have to step away and maybe try again another time. But you can't bypass it you have to just go through it at some point... or not. Yeah, some people may well decide it's too painful and decide to stop. That person is the only one who can decide whether they want to step into that kind of pain. Not an easy choice but one that should be respected.

As you know I struggle with holding onto the security and sense of safety my T provides. There are no reasons for me to mistrust him or fear him. When he asks me to seriously look back and the past year and see if there is any evidence that he has been dangerous or hurtful or uncaring... I have to say no. But these fears and the pain gets mixed in with my history with oldT and my mother and then it gets all chaotic in my head and I get scared. I think what I have learned is to look at my feelings through the filter of my history with MY T and no one else. Maybe when you get scared you can try doing that too.

I hope that this break along with talking with a consult T will give you a renewed energy and purpose to the work when your T gets back. I have not read that book but I have read a lot of things by Kathy Steele and van der Hart. Let us know how it is.

Hugs to you
TN

That’s great Incognito that your second visit with consult T has left you feeling in a better place, even able to sleep peacefully for a change. Something good happened there!

Just wondering how you’re feeling now, and whether you did contact T in the end today, or are going to (it’s night time here already).

I could have sworn you said something about how asking directly for things somehow invalidates the getting and I was all set to comment on that (I haven’t been around for a day or two and didn’t make it back earlier) but I can’t find it in your posts – maybe I imagined it???? Anyway irrelevant now sorry.

Glad to hear you liked consult T and that the session was helpful. Best wishes with whatever you decide to do.

LL

STRM, I've noticed that when I reach out to my T and something goes wrong, he doesn't respond or doesn't understand so his response is wrong then I start feeling like it is my mistake for contacting him but I don't think the reaching out for him always or even usually results in me avoiding what upset me originally. For the last couple of weeks I've been fighting the desire to contact him almost constantly during his office hours and I don't know why except that I've disclosed some really big things lately and I knew he was leaving for a week and holidays and mistakes resulted in the sessions being at odd times. When things start to go wrong and I'm spending so much time agonizing over it I want to quit. I can't seem to make the decision either to stop agonizing over it or to stop contacting him because sometimes it helps. I don't have any plans to see consult T again at least until after I talk to my T about things. Part of me is afraid he will be relieved I found somebody else and suggest I move to consult T but that could just be my fear talking.

Liese, how do you know that you are getting enough emotional support? I've been seeing my T twice a week for over a year now and for most of that time it has been enough. The last couple of weeks it hasn't been and the anguish about contacting him and trying to get more is painful. I hope I can figure out a way to be okay with my needs by talking to T.

TN,thanks for your support. I like hearing about your sessions when you confront those fears and talk about how they are not about your T. It gives me some goals for my own sessions. It is so hard to think at all when I'm scared.

LL, I haven't contacted T yet but I've started an email. Here is it still the afternoon so I could and sure enough I started to get anxious about whether or not to email him at just about noon. I also started to worry about talking to him about all the things I've been thinking about this week including consult T, my feeling that he is upset that I've been contacting him too much, my anger that he decided to talk about all of this before he left for a week, how I can figure out what need I'm trying to fill when I contact T or when I'm agonizing over whether to contact T (so confusing). I would like to hear your thoughts on how asking directly things invalidates getting them because the comment is up there in one of my long posts and it is still relevant because I am going to have to talk to T about what I want/need from him and how to manage with what he can offer.

Hi again Incognito, I hope you persevere with your writing about what’s going on – even if you don’t send your T the email, at least you are clarifying it all for yourself and maybe will feel able to talk to him about all this directly on Tuesday.

So this idea, that if you have to ask for something, somehow that invalidates getting it – this is something I am VERY familiar with. I remember once trying to explain it to a T and the best analogy I could come up with is like asking someone to love me – not exactly something that can be given on demand – either they love or they don’t. So on that basis, I have this belief that if I have to ask for something, that means ipso facto that I’m not getting, or going to get, it. It’s like, for it to be emotionally meaningful, it has to be given without prompting or being asked for. So say I tell my T I want him to respond to me in a certain way and he does, I then feel like well that doesn’t count because I’ve had to TELL him what to do and it undermines my trust because I think, he ought to KNOW to do that in the first place (or just be the kind of person who would respond in that way because that’s how he works), and anyone can do what I ask them to, doesn’t mean they mean it, it makes it somehow inauthentic. I don’t think I’m talking about mind reading here, just that the value and emotional meaning of whatever is given is almost negated by having to openly ask for it, whereas if it’s given freely without prompting, it creates a real emotional connection… like being given exactly the present you would have wanted for your birthday, instead of handing out a list of things you’d like the other to get for you…

On the other hand though, I suspect my own motives with this, because it’s always been a major crime for me to even have wants let alone own them to myself let alone actually ASK for someone to meet them so I suspect that focusing on someone just giving to me what I want without my having to own the want in the first place, is a safety thing – if it’s given unasked for, then I’m not being forced to acknowledge that’s what I want (and risk either being deliberately denied – a kind of ‘punishment’ for daring to think I could possibly deserve something good – or being shamed and humiliated and made to experience myself as worthless for owning up to having wants that reveal a needy vulnerable previously rejected me...) And also, not being able to ask for what I want (on the basis that if I have to ask for it, it’s not genuine or deserved etc) means I can’t actually take it in if and when I do get it. It’s a bit like demanding proof – if I deserved it, if it was ok to want what I want, I’d have had it already, and if you really meant to give this to me, if you really wanted to meet my needs, you’d have done it already… (now that DOES border on mind reading lol.)

I have this faith in the therapeutic process whereby therapy is a place where you should be able to ask for what you want/need regardless of whether there’s a guarantee you’re going to get it or not and regardless of whether the giving is authentic and emotionally meaningful or not. The beauty of therapy (in theory) is that it’s possible to ask for stuff, make ourselves vulnerable and needy and risk all the ick that goes along with expressing unmet wants and needs, and even if it’s not being given, it’s safe and acceptable to express all the feelings at the not getting, all the crap feelings that we have to hide squash control and get rid of in real world (like shame, rage, frustration, pain…) And in the process experiencing that it’s ok to want, ok to ask for what you want, ok to not get what you want without it meaning terrible and shameful things about yourself, and ok to actually GET what you want.

Lol not sure if that’s of any relevance to what’s going on in you but those were my thoughts when I read what you’d said in your previous post. I suppose I’m trying to say, no matter that you feel like having to ask for things invalidates the getting, risk it, keep asking, that’s the healing thing. Painful frightening risky, but ultimately healing.

Good luck with that email!

LL

Incognito,

I just wanted to tailgate on LL's response. I know what she means about if you have to ask and then when it is given, it doesn't feel genuine. But I also wanted to share my experience with my T because I've started to ask for things.

Recently he did something I asked and he actually came right out and told me, I'm doing this because I want to. And I really mean it. Oh, it actually had to do with me missing my labor day appointment. He told me on the Thursday session before that weekend that he was encouraging me to call. He really wanted me to call him anytime over the weekend. Monday morning was a particularly good time to call but anytime was okay. And that's when he said, I'm doing this because I want to. I had those thoughts, well, what if he's just saying that because he knows I want it and blah blah blah, I was starting to invalidate myself a little. Oh, and he offered to squeeze me in somewhere on Tuesday if I felt I needed to come in even though I'd be seeing him on Thursday.

And, so Monday came and I felt good. I felt okay. I didn't actually need to speak with him but I just wanted to leave him a message that I was doing good and that I really appreciated him encouraging me to call. But I couldn't get through to his voicemail. His phonelines were screwed up that day. I tried 3 times and then just decided to let it go. I was okay.

Then later that afternoon, I found a message from T on my voicemail, calling me. He was checking in with me to see if I was okay. It really did mean a lot to me that he called to check in on me. It really made me feel cared for. But I also just really appreciated the fact that he was sensitive to how important my sessions are to me.

And, so it's worth a try to ask him for what you need. It might wind up feeling genuine.

I told a good friend of mine that story and do you know what she said to me? You are ready. And I said for what? And she said, you are ready to be validated. Wow. What a thought, huh?

Anyway, I just thought of something else Incognito, something that bothers me about therapy. In the real world, when we are in the process of getting to know someone, there are usually markers, right? Like, you know when someone cares about you. They might call you to see how you are feeling. Whatever. Well, there aren't those markers in therapy. A T can tell you that they care but how do you really know? Even if they give you everything you ask for, sessions two times a week, contact 24/7, it can kind of wind of feeling not very genuine, like LL said and anyone of us might still think, well, T is just doing that because I'm paying him.

I can't even verbalize for sure what it was about T calling me on labor day that helped so much but it did. I know that I really appreciated the fact that he was sensitive to me. Did I also just need to know that my neediness was okay? That I wasn't repulsive? And turning him off? I think that might have been part of it too.

What I am wondering here is if your T needs to reach out to you a little more, like mine did calling me on labor day. There IS something triggering you. It might or might not be the stuff you told him recently. There is something going on in you that is making you uncomfortable with the relationship.

I know how scary it is to tell T that you went on a consult. I was scared to tell my T but he said I was resourceful. It also really helped him figure out what was going wrong in our relationship and things got so much better afterwards. So I hope your T will be okay with it too.

The thing is, you are in a tremendous amount of pain, maybe more than you need to be. And maybe this will highlight it for your T and really get his attention that he needs to take a look at what is going on, how he can help you feel more comfortable. You two have worked together for so long that I doubt he will tell you to move onto consult T. He has a lot vested in you and I doubt he'd give up on you so quickly. But I certainly know why you would worry about that.

Big hugs,

xoxoxo

Liese

Incognito,

UV has done a lot more reading than I have. And I don't have a full understanding of the therapeutic process. But what I did read about dependency is that until the client has a secure dependency on the therapist, no real therapeutic work can be done. I don't know where separation and individuation falls within the therapeutic framework. But my gut tells me that the secure dependency is essential before you can separate and individuate.

You don't have that secure dependency with your T yet that you can move on from yet. There's a really terrific article I read by Kathy Steele that outlined dependency issues within the therapeutic relationship and what she has found is that having an insecure dependency (as opposed to secure dependency) with your T actually PROLONGS the dependency. Part of having that a secure dependency is being able to allow yourself to depend deeply on your T. But you still have many painful and ambivilant feelings in regards to your interactions with your T and therapy in general.

It seems to me that you might be in phase 1 of trauma work, which is getting over the fear of attachment of the therapist and the fear of loss of the therapist. I'm getting the sense that you want to feel close to your T but there is still a lot of pain and static there in between the two of you. And again, it just seems to me that until you are able to truly trust him and trust that he's not trying to hurt you and trust that he really is there for you, you won't be able to do the therapeutic work necessary to get to the separation/individuation stage.

It also seems to me that there is something about the relationship that feels unsafe for you. In reality, it might not be unsafe. Your T sounds really terrific and trustworthy. But as far as your history and your emotional makeup, there is something there, some emotional framework or scaffolding that is missing that is making the relationship feel unsafe for you. And until you and T are able to uncover what that is, it doesn't seem to me, again, that any real therapeutic work can be done.

I just felt a need to send out a little cautionary note here. I know UV wasn't sending the message the dependency is wrong. I think she was acknowledging that it's particularly painful for you. And like I said above, she has done a ton more reading than I have. I just have this intuitive sense though that the dependency and trust issues have to be resolved first before the separation/individuation process can start. I didn't read that anywhere and want to emphasize again that I could be totally offbase.

UV is you want to beat me up for offering a contrary opinion when I haven't done nearly the reading you have, please do so. Still hashing out all this stuff in my own head.

Or, even better, if you want to explain the separation/indiviuation stuff a little more, that would be terrific. And at what stage in therapy does that generally happen?

xoxoxo Incognito

Liese

Ahhh, UV, that makes so much sense. I guess I've been working through all that enmeshment stuff for the past 4 years. You are right, it is grueling and difficult. Now I understand a little clearer.

Sad to hear of course that the dependency and trust issues never go away. But like you said, better to know the cold, hard truth than be fed Kool-aid.

I've definitely been separating from my T, as painful as it is. But I don't think I've individuated yet. I'm wondering if the dependency phase that Kathy Steel is talking about takes place during the individuation phase? I don't know how to post a link. If you can tell me how to do it, I will do that and you can read the article and then put it in the context of the separation/individuation stuff - only if you want to and maybe on another thread.

Incognito, sorry for the hijack!!!

UV, what did you do? delete?

UV,

My statement was only made in the context of my own childhood, in which diverse opinions were not valued and I was literally beatup. I am sorry if that triggered you. It was certainly not a reference towards you.

xoxo

Liese

Thank you for the interesting discussion UV and Liese. I was away from the internet for theweekend and have just got back so I missed UV's post explaining more about separation-individuation. Maybe you could send me something by PM if you don't want to leave the post up.

I feel torn between the two different ideas. One that I should work on feeling securely dependent on my T which I think would involve continuing to talk about our relationship with my T and trying to figure out why I feel unsafe. The other that I should decrease the frequency of my sessions and stop talking about the relationship to try and stop the transference. Right now I think I would rather stop therapy completely rather than cut down or change therapists and hope the negative transference is different enough with another T so that I'm not in so much pain.

LL, I did send my T an email on Friday and I haven't heard from him which doesn't surprise me because it is a holiday weekend but it does disappoint me. I sometimes feel like I keep contacting him and setting myself up for disappointment when he doesn't respond so that I have an actual reason/experience to prove I shouldn't trust him. Maybe I'm just avoiding the things that are too difficult to deal with.

(((((INCOGNITO))))

Just wanted to tell you that I'm sorry about it all. It is all very confusing, isn't it? Hope you find some relief soon. One of my consults told me that therapy is painful but it shouldn't be THAT painful. And, so it sounds like you are being wise and taking care of yourself. Maybe the dependency and the separation/individuation are the side issues here and your intense pain is what should be addressed.

xoxo

Liese

quote:
When i read your post that you originally deleted but reposted, i could see from your conversation that what you are doing seems more ideal than not.

UV did you mean that you think it is more ideal or less ideal. My day to day life has gotten so much smoother over the time I've been in therapy I suspect that there has already been a lot of supportive therapy. Actually there is very little left but the things that I find incredibly difficult, painful and destabilizing like my childhood abuse memories, my feelings about my T and depencdency, my current sex life because it resonates with my childhood. I started taking some medication in January this year and I think it has helped a lot. My prescribing doctor (not my T) thinks that I should increase my meds to better control my depression but I don't like the side effects so it is a trade off. A lot of what you are saying reminds me of my T. He says things like there is no way to make this easy but we can work together to make it easier. Maybe I need to read more about psychodynamic theory. Do you have any recommendations? I appreciate your insight and comments on my therapy. Feel free to let both parts of you post if you want to. I hope that you can sort out your confusion about parts fighting because that sounds painful.

Liese, thank you for your understanding. I think I am going to have to address my pain at my session tomorrow.

This morning after reading your post I was feeling so down about my T not responding I started to worry that something happened to him last week. I think I have a fear that he is going to have an accident and I'll be angry at him for not responding and then I'll find out he's dead. So I wrote him another email. A very short one asking him to let me know he was alive and was planning to be in his office tomorrow for my session. I told him I was struggling. He replied within five minutes saying yes he was alive, he would see me tomorrow and sorry I was struggling. I felt relieved and then angry. Relieved makes sense but I'm angry because I wonder why he didn't respond to my email from Friday (this morning if he hadn't had time before this weekend).

As the day has progressed I've been writing him a letter (that I'm going to read tomorrow not send) telling him that I'm angry that he didn't respond. I usually feel like whatever I asked for is too much, too needy, and wrong if someone doesn't give it to me. I understand and can make an excuse for why he didn't respond (he was away, then he was observing a religious holiday, he shouldn't have to respond to patients on his time off etc.) I'm trying to write the letter from my point of view instead of explaining his which is what I usually do. I also think that there is some kind of validation and understanding that I'm not getting during our sessions that leaves me feeling unsafe and I need to tell him that. I'm going to try and look at the contacting him out of sessions as the symptom of the problem and not the problem itself.

Thanks for all your ideas and support.

((((INCOGNITO))))

Thinking of you today and hoping things went well at least okay with T.

thanks for thinking of me Liese

I read your post while I was sitting in the waiting room just before my session. My session went well even though we didn't talk about much.

I was angry when I went in and told him I didn't want to talk about anything. He asked me some easy questions. I didn't ask him about his course. Eventually he asked me how I felt when he didn't respond to my email on Friday and I told him I was mad. He explained why he didn't respond (he was in a non-work headspace after his course and returning home and it didn't feel like it required a response etc). I understood but I was still angry and instead of telling him I understood I stayed with angry. I told him I felt like I was being punished by being ignored which is how he described my parents behaviour in my childhood. He took responsibility for that feeling because of his lack of response.

Then I told him I was angry about the session before he left and what he insisted we talk about. I told him it felt like he pushed me into the pit of despair and hopelessness and then left for a week. He told me he thought the mistake he made in that session was trying to explain to me something that I needed to experience because he was trying to decrease the amount of pain I was feeling, so he was non-defensive and acknowledged his part in the interaction. I told him maybe I can't hear him

Right near the end I told him I had gotten through the week by talking a lot to my husband, people on the internet, and seeing another T for two sessions. I said I had lots of ideas floating around but I didn't know what I wanted to do next regarding therapy. We meet again tomorrow night for our regularly scheduled session and I hope I can express more of my thoughts then. I'm actually happy I could admit anger without losing my temper and having it escalate. So it was better than okay.

Thank you to everyone for helping me work things out this week.

(((((((Incognito))))))

Glad the session was good and that you will see T again tomorrow night. I'm glad he's back from vacation.

I am a little confused about his response that it didn't FEEL like your email required a response. Did he use the word feel? Does that mean that you didn't ask for a response? Or you did and he didn't feel like responding?

Liese,

I didn't ask for a response. Actually I don't ask for a response but he almost always responds. I can only think of one other time that he didn't feel like my email needed a response. I may try talking about that tomorrow.

(((Incognito))) I'm glad you were able to express your anger and upset and that your T remained non-defensive and was able to hear you and take responsibility for his part in the interaction. I hope your session tomorrow night goes well!

((((INCOGNITO))))

Just checking in to see how you are doing, how you are coping and managing with the pain, and wondering if things have improved with T. You've been quiet. But my mother used to say, no news is good news. Hoping that's the case for you.

xoxo

Liese

thanks for asking Liese but in this the quiet is because I don't know what to say. Last week I had two difficult sessions with my T in which I tried to talk about attachment and dependency.

Then over the weekend my husband's family who are coming to town for the first time in three years on Friday had a huge fight with my husband. It came out of nowhere, wasn't explained, led to some nasty emails, and eventually I called and spoke to the other in law and ended up losing my temper and telling her exactly how I felt about the last 15 years. Monday's session was all about that. My husband's family decided to notify him formally that they wouldn't be visiting with us (though I am getting together with the in law after the screaming we talked things out) so that sucks for h.

Last night I had my second session and after updating him on the in law session he asked me about the fact I hadn't emailed or called him after Monday's session. I told him I hadn't because there was nothing left over from the session and I'm sick with a cold and physical illness always results in me having less energy for emotional and mental angst. He asked me about that and what it meant my emotional angst lessened when I was physically unwell. I said I didn't know I thought I was just depleted and asked him if he was making a point. Then everything gets a little hard to remember. I got upset. I told him I didn't know whether he was trying to tell me that I shouldn't think about myself and my feeling so much (since being permanently sick wasn't an option). He said lots of things....ending with he thinks I feel invalidated and like he is telling me I'm doing things wrong. I agreed because I think he is. He didn't disagree or I can't remember and I left there feeling confused and angry which has morphed into hurt, angry, sad, and overwhelmed.

I hate therapy. I hate that when things are difficult (I'm sick or he's leaving) he seems to push harder. I do feel judged and what is worse he won't even suggest things I could do that would improve things so we go in circles.

I bet you are sorry you asked Liese. I hope your session went well today.

((((INCOGNITO)))))

I am NOT sorry I asked but I am sorry that things have been so hard. And that fight between H and his family had to take a huge toll as well as being so sick. We've had some family fighting in the past 5 years and it's really hard so I know how bad that feels.

Therapy is hard but you do sound like you are in sooo much pain, too much pain that it might be counterproductive. I hope you are able to get across to him how much pain you are in and that you need help from him with relieving the pain.

I hope things get resolved between H and his family. Sometimes it seems like there are these long-standing resentments that no one ever talked about and then one day, the dam breaks. Maybe things will get better and you and the inlaw can be the peacemakers.

xoxo

Liese