((Yaku)) Wow, that sounds like a really difficult session. I have not had this type of conversation with my T, but I do think about what would happen if she were to die. She's also in her early 60's, so obviously she could still have decades left, but you also never know with life. It's so hard to think about our T's family. There's so much sadness, grief, and pain there. It can feel like a bottomless pit. I know you said you wish you had never brought this up, but I see the potential for some healing there. I think if you were to bring it up again and talk about how it would affect you, how you would have nowhere to go with your grief, maybe he would feel more comfortable discussing it? It is such an emotional topic, but I'm hoping your T can focus more on your feelings and attachment and less on his feelings around his future death. I think that is such an important conversation that stirs so many feelings, down to your core.

I don't know....I'm sure your last session was excruciating. But it's not your fault you hit on something for T. I know it seems like it is (of course it does!) but I'm training to be a T and it is drilled into us that we will be triggered, we will have our 'stuff' get muddied in some circumstances with some clients. We need to know ourselves well enough to know when it's our unprocessed 'stuff' in the room opposed to what the client is saying. Your T sounds like he is great in that he knows it is his discomfort with the topic, not that it is a bad topic or off limits. Do you think you'll ever broach the topic with him again, maybe coming from an attachment angle?

Also, I can relate to the attachment stuff and how hard it is seeing this near perfect individual sitting in front of you and wishing you could travel back in time with them and have them parent you. It's the hardest thing in the world (for me). My child inside so wishes this could happen. My adult self is so ashamed of this desire, this neediness. It is my adult self who pulls back when my shame is too much. But I know I have this child inside who so desperately needs my T and loves my T and wishes she could love me back. This stuff is so hard. I don't know if I'll ever be done with it.

Yaku, I'm really sorry your session was so difficult and T seemed to have lost track for a brief time of what you were really saying.

(((yaku)))

I feel exactly the same way as you. I rarely think of T dying. He is 60 but very healthy and young looking. We've discussed it and I know he has a colleague who will notify his patients. I was lucky neither mentioned his family (5 children) or made any comments about who would feel what exactly at his death. I agree I wouldn't be able to grieve for him the way I would want to publicly. I have planned to discuss the issue of communication or notification after termination but that is far away and maybe by then the issue won't seem as necessary. Thinking of you

(((erica))) (((cogs))) Thanks for your words and relating to me...

I did go on to explain the attachment aspect of it in the session, but still couldn't shake so much shame for upsetting him. Really, he's not the type of person to have a plan and I'm sure I would get informed and it will probably never come to be.

I texted him later to explain the confusion better of being so close to someone (when you never have before), but not being able to really belong. I asked if he understood and he said it was about anxiety and ambivalence about closeness, but that's not really what it is. It's about grief. It's about finally having someone and how it makes you face up to what you didn't and can't have. And it's OK with me that he can't do/be that to the level that could replace what was missed.

I'm not even terrified of losing him in the permanent, death way, because of what I believe. I'm afraid not being able to grieve when the time comes, about it being some "weird" or "wrong" thing. He hit on that in session, it's about the attachment being threatened (not the thing itself, but the validity of it). The main thing I feel, other than grief about the way past, is not anxiety or ambivalence...just confusion. It's a confusing relationship. I love my T. He's taught me so much and in turn I'm able to take it into building other relationships. And, even though I get terrified of the relationship breaking all the time, I 100% know that he loves me. He said it was upsetting not only to think about his family being on their own, but me coming in and finding out about it that sort of a way. He shows me his love all the time. And he's the sort of person that, in other circumstances (where it didn't threaten his license, like if we had met through church and lived in the same community), probably would have taken me on, been a sort of mentor or father figure. And that's what makes it so confusing. In fact, the closest things to secure attachments I have ever formed have always been in the context of someone who can't really be that, because of social/professional constraints. And...it's just...confusing. I guess it would have been nice to hear that it's confusing to him too sometimes. I think that's all I really needed, outside of an idea of a way I could grieve when the time comes.

yaku - this is indeed a difficult thing to talk about and process.

***may be triggering***
I did have a Pdoc pass away a number of years ago. And it was awful and terrible and hurt to the core of my being. It was a sudden and unexpected death. But, honestly, my grief was allowed and it was acknowledged as real.
**end trigger**

And yaku - you do belong with him. Just because as clients we are not part of our Ts inner, immediate circle, does not deflect from the fact that we are in a real relationship with them.
I hope you are able to, at some point, allow yourself to elaborate and let your T know that what you're feeling is about attachment.

((((YAKU))))

I've had that happen with my T. It's so hard to process something with them that's about them that they haven't processed. It DOES feel like emotional abandonment. I think it's great that you are trying to deal with it though I get your sadness about the whole thing. Speaking of that, have you ever seen "What About Bob?" I just saw it today for the first time and wondered if the writer had been to therapy and balked at the seemingly insensitivity of the therapeutic boundaries.

(((lucy))) So sorry to hear about your previous experience with this exact topic. I suppose I only really worry about it, because my T is only marginally affiliated and working as a private practitioner in both the offices he's in. So, it's hard for me to imagine I'd have much support from anyone in guiding me through how one is supposed to grieve in that sort of circumstance.

(((Liese))) You kind of did hit on the feeling that I'm having. He keeps encouraging this attachment with a lot of really positive things that have helped me (outside contact, hugs, directly expressing warmth, etc.), but when I'm finally ready to trust him with how frustrating it is to deal with (not asking for more from him, just processing the past grief along with present confusion in such a unique sort of relationship), he just got stuck and couldn't hear it. So, it kind of felt like I was, once again, left holding something that I needed help with and the person who was charged with helping me through it was too busy tending to their stuff.

The reality is, though, that he worked through it (or at least set it aside to examine it later) right there in the room very quickly. At first, he was slightly defensive (maybe?) about it that he was human and is sometimes going to have less-than-optimal reactions to things. That hurt, because I wasn't asking him not to be human, just feeling completely awful and ashamed at having said something that felt "wrong" (a way I feel a lot and apologize for a lot). I think it was his reaction to me being affected by him being affected, lol. We could have gotten stuck in a real loop there. He later expressed genuine sadness at having come across something he obviously needs to deal with in his own life and having it affect me.

He explained being caught off guard and not understanding it was a conversation that was about attachment, but even if something we say or do (read here, the way I brought up the topic) hurts or upsets another person, in a healthy relationship, it's just a bump in the road. He really, really tried to get me to see everything was OK. And he did take responsibility...I'm just still left with this feeling of yuck, of being wrong in some way for always thinking about these sort of things (whether about H or T or even myself and how others would deal with my absence). I went so far as to make my H take Boo through her morning routine and get her to school when I was getting ready for the funerals, because I had been thinking, "God forbid, if something happens and I am either gone or hospitalized (I've been worried about the latter with several unexpected crises lately), I need him to know this stuff," to cause as little disruption as possible. I think talking about my thinking in that way may have freaked T out a little, unintentionally.

I so do not want to go on Monday. I can't stop feeling like I'm someone he just wants as far away as possible right now, like things are very broken. They never have been when I've felt this way before, but I'm constantly on edge. Ironically, when we left, I was the one abandoning him. I was so full of shame (partially due to the session and partially due to body memories that had come up near the end) that I could barely hug him goodbye, could not look at him, just stood there, looking at the ground, waiting for the door he was in front of to be opened. He tried to get a better ending for me, but I couldn't give it to myself.

Anyway, sorry for writing so much. I'm just feeling like a total fail at this therapy thing right now.

And, no, Liese, I haven't seen "What About Bob?" My T has referenced it a few times and mentioned joking around with H about it the other day. I guess I'm the odd-one-out there.

quote:

I'm just still left with this feeling of yuck, of being wrong in some way for always thinking about these sort of things

I know Yaku. I understand. It's happened to me and it's not a great feeling. Therapy is hard. Aside from all the pain, we are asked to do some really vulnerable and, on many levels, unbearable things. You are NOT a failure.

"What About Bob" triggered me at first so you might want to think twice before you watch it though it was very funny. Bill Murray plays Richard Dreyfus' patient. Dreyfus is going on vacation the day after Murray's first appointment and is on the verge of becoming a national success. Good Morning America is going to interview him at his vacation house about his new book that was just published.

Bill Murray finds out where Dreyfus is and goes there violating all kinds of boundaries along the way all throughout the movie. Dreyfus' wife and kids like Bill Murray and continue to invite him to hang out with them all of which drives Dreyfus crazy. At times, I felt bad for Murray and other times Dreyfus and also embarrassed for both of them. Not at the same time, of course. The interesting thing to me was that Dreyfus's family had a more "normal" reaction to Bill Murray in that they seemed oblivious to the doctor/patient boundary thing and treated Bill Murray more like just someone they met. I was struck by the dual reality of how Dreyfus was relating to Bill Murray versus how his wife and kids were relating to him.

In the end, Dreyfus goes crazy and Bill Murray winds up marrying Dreyfus's sister. The cast is great though, as I said, I did find it triggering at times. The movie didn't really portray Bill Murray in a negative light. They described him as someone with severe separation anxiety, etc.

Hang in there. I'll be thinking about you on Monday. I know how hard it is to go to a session when you are feeling like this. It's very hard.

P.S. I talked to my T about this very topic and told him how hard would be if he was very sick, like if he had a heart attack, and I couldn't come visit him in the hospital, etc. It's a very difficult position to be in.

Hi Yaku-- That is a really tough subject and I have broached with it with my T a few times. Most recently when C died and I got so terrified that T would soon die too as everyone I loved seemed to be leaving me over the past 3 years. My T does not shy away from the topic (I'm sure he's been through it with other patients in the past) and the tells me that yes, we will ALL die at some point but he has not plans to do that in the near future. What he does emphasize is that at some far point in the future when he dies I will have so much of him that I carry inside of me that although I won't see him in person as I do now, I will still be with him and that will bring me comfort. He did allow me to take one cell phone picture of him that I treasure because I told him that I was so scared that I would forget what he looked like. He has NO internet presence at all and I didn't have a picture of him. That helped some. He said as we spend time together and experience more and more together (for example things like sitting on the floor, celebrating my graduation, him reading a story to me, etc) that will have so much of him stored up inside of me that will ease my grief. I'm not absolutely convinced about that but it seems to make some sense to me. I do have an enormous amount of shared experiences with C that have really helped me in my grief over his death. I know that he is still with me and I carry him in my heart.

The other part of this is how your T reacted to your questions and your fears. I think it's surprising to us because we have experienced T's and they usually are able to handle whatever we throw at them. To see them a bit vulnerable themselves can be scary. As you may remember this happened a few times with my T who always seems so unperturbed by anything I throw out there. The first time was when I brought up the topic of touch in therapy. I had been mulling over the topic for a long time but to my T it seemed like I introduced it out of the blue and it took him by surprise and he reacted "piss poorly" in his words during a subsequent session. I was so upset by his negative reaction that I thought I could never go back to him and was ready to quit therapy. Thinking about how close and wonderful our relationship is now that would have been very sad. As hard as it was I went back and we circled around the topic during other sessions and over a period of time. It has gotten easier and I understand more and more what happened in that session and I can see it now from his POV and where his reaction came from. It did not ruin our relationship or cause any issues. And in fact, 1.5 years later we sat together and held hands, something I thought that would NEVER be allowed.

His other piss poor reaction was when I was angry that is wife joined the office and he never told me and I felt that he hid the fact from me because she was using her maiden name. Only a hypervigilant super sleuth like me would figure that out (or an attachment injured patient). He seemed so angry during that session I was convinced he was going to fire me as a patient. He later told me he was angry at himself for not seeing this coming and for not being prepared for it and for causing this hurt for me. He was also adamant about holding his boundaries which scared me terribly. I remember crying hysterically and shaking so badly in that session. As it ended I got up from the floor and was prepared never to see him again. So what did he do? He handed me his Dragon and told me to hold onto it until Monday (it was Wednesday). He later told me he did this to be sure I would come back. Whatever happened between us during that session the most important thing to him was that I come back. He did not want to lose me.

I think all T's will run into something they haven't addressed before, or have some of their own emotional reaction to. Even the best ones. They are still human. The difference is that they come back from it and make sure that the patient is okay and they always put the patient first. They are later willing to re-address the topic and remain open and accepting of all of your feelings. Your T is like that.

I hope this was somehow helpful to you. I know how scared you can feel and how difficult it seems to go back. But you will because no matter what else is going on, your attachment to your T is the most important thing and it is not worth giving that hard-won connection up.

Hug to you.
TN

(((Liese))) Yeah, I know the general premise from talking to T. I specifically avoided watching it wondering if it would trigger all sorts of shame for me. Thanks for normalizing how confusing and hard this relationship is!

(((TN))) You (and your T) make a great point about how much I can take with me. I think I agree with that, but still struggle with lacking the right to kind of the symbol or ceremony or social process of grieving. It feels like there is no one in the world, outside of this board, that I could go to and grieve with if I did lose him, and have it not be something "weird" to be so painful for me. I know I definitely won't bail on my therapy, but it won't stop me from whining that I want to! It definitely can spook me when my T seems unprepared or out of his element. The funny thing is that he recovered SO quickly, and was really good from there on in, and it took only the most momentary vulnerability showing through for me to panic. I guess the part of me that had to take care of my parents' vulnerabilities, and their reactions to their shattered self-image at failing, freaked me out. What you wrote was very helpful to me, thank you.

(((Monte))) I'm sorry to stir up something so painful. What you wrote is exactly how the situation feels. It's very confusing and it feels like no one in the world would understand my need to be involved or included in some way. And, from what T had said on previous occasions, I thought he WOULD understand it, so him not getting it initially really threw me for a loop. I will probably put the conversation on the shelf for a while unless T himself brings it up. I'm just not ready to go there again, but I know I will have to eventually, because so much of what I needed and missed is tied up with it. I hope you're able to talk to your T about it someday too. While it was much less than ideal, I think bringing it out into the light will lessen the shame of these (I suppose normal, human) needs and reactions that are getting stirred up. Now, if I can only learn to look at my T and actually experience his care and acceptance when I'm drowning in shame, maybe I can make a tiny bit of progress there... :/

Thank you all for talking me through this.

Update on last night's session...

So, I had a really productive session with T...that reminded me of how much therapy just sucks. It is hard friggin' work!

We talked a little about stuff going on with H. I'm trying to set boundaries again and keep things safe for me (for those who don't know from long ago what I'm talking about, sorry that I don't feel comfortable posting it on the OF) and it didn't go well at first, but he has come around a lot in the last week or so.

Then we talked about (if it is true) great news from the insurance company, finally honoring what we were told for both last year and this year...but being as we have been misled before, it's hard to believe it until it comes through in the form of a check.

Then, we got into why I was shut down (which I announced at the beginning). I was more anxious than I had been in a year-and-a-half, but couldn't really explain it at first, other than it was probably some attachment trigger from our last session.

Eventually, I was able to go into detail about some of the specifics that were coming up and how confusing the T-relationship is. At first, it seemed like he didn't understand it, and thought it was entirely a parental transference thing. I admitted there's an aspect of that, but it's not entirely or even mostly about that, just like it was not entirely or mostly about death/loss last session. I explained how confusing it is to be so close to someone, but at the same time, have all these reminders of how the relationship is a different context, of how things need to be handled differently. And it can be hard to know how to fit...like a puzzle-piece that is in the wrong direction, the wrong shape, the wrong spot, maybe even the wrong puzzle...it just doesn't go where you're trying to put it.

At first, I really didn't think he understood. But, eventually he started talking about his experience of it. Firstly, that he was a regular client a long-time back, so he has an idea of what it's like to be on that end of the dynamic. Secondly, that his job is also his ministry, so he is always balancing his responsibility to his professional organization's codes and his sense of what is right/best for his clients (from a spiritual perspective).

Last, that he doesn't see it as all that different than any other structured relationship he's involved in, like being in his church band. That he is closer to those people than the other members of his church (though he cares for everyone), because they are involved in something together. And he and I are involved in a "project" of my healing together, and that's naturally going to bring us close together. And that closeness will no more change with me than it would if one of his friends stopped playing in the band.

I was still feeling like maybe he didn't understand how confusing it was, though. I gave him examples, like funerals bringing up how I would be able to grieve in those cases (and he related it to a doctor or physical therapist and how it was natural to grieve someone who you'd known a long time, regardless). I told him when he makes jokes about playing in each other's respective church bands, that it drags it up too, and he said outside of the fact that we are working together in this way now, he really doesn't see that as so much of a weird or impossible thing. I was still feeling like, "Ugh, he doens't get how frickin' confusing this is, the ambivalence does not bother him at all." So, finally, I just explicitly asked him and he directly told me he does understand. That's actually where he brought up having been a client before and also the part about balancing the "profession" and "ministry" aspects of his work.

Interestingly, without me bringing it up, he transitioned it into another thing that is tangentially related, which is grief, though he didn't specifically call it that. He said he couldn't speak for the kids inside, but from his perspective, you can't go back and completely fix those sort of wounds. You can't get something to replace what was missed at that time. For so long, it felt like he was trying to do that and I was afraid, because I knew it would never work, so it was a relief to know he's just offering in the now and not trying to fill up some bottomless pit.

T mentioned his own past, that his dad was not a very good father during his childhood, and there were some real wounds there. But, when he grew up, his father changed a lot, and became a really good dad, and they built a good relationship. But, even getting to have that with his dad did not change the hurts that were there, though he was able to forgive him. I forget what he labeled the healing that needed to happen, but I called it grief and he basically agreed that was one way to put it.

At this point, we'd basically used up all of our session with me just finally able to feel like I was safe to approach and be close. Aside from a few friendly pokes on my arm to disarm my feelings of shame and toxicity stirred up about him calling me argumentative and saying the belief that others are better off with me gone was "diabolical" (not that I was bad, but that belief was toxic), he stayed way on the other side of the couch and gave me space. I knew it wasn't going to go well to end there, but I couldn't ask to at least have one hug, because it was already late...but he could tell what was going on and offered to give a hug for a bit before we prayed, but I said just during the prayer, because I didn't want to make things later and stir up more shame.

So...we did that really quickly (or rather I rushed him into praying ASAP)...and for the first time in three sessions, I was actually able to ask about when our next one is going to be (I've been too ashamed to do so recently, feeling like he should want me gone).

We also did our usual goodbye hug when I went out and it felt like the first time I'd actually engaged in it in weeks. He gave me a really good one and I returned it and before I let go, I said, "You suck!"

And he said back, "You suck too...but you probably mean it differently than I do."

And I said, "Like how?"

And he said, "You suck for being so loveable. "

And I said, "Um , no...we meant it in the same way."

Unfortunately, I've had to text a lot today, just because there's a lot of terror about him being mad or "sending us away." But, at least it feels like T and I are on the same page again, and he gets how hugely hard this is. Even if he sucks...

Wow, Yaku, thanks for sharing that with us. It seems that you and T were able to work some of this issue out, about grief and about the confusion of what you would be "allowed" to do if he should die. It is a confusing relationship and this was brought home to me when I was abandoned by oldT. It was a death of sorts... but not a death and part of the trauma and inability to heal came from not being able to grieve or mourn like I would if I lost a regular person in my life. It was also confusing because it was not a real death. No one really understood how paralyzed in grief I was. So I do understand your concerns and anxiety over this. I think the bigger point was not the way to grieve or the right to grieve... but the confusion of the relationship itself. I do think you made progress with that.

It also seems that you have moved closer to T and he to you. The hugs sound nice and the joking around about it was very sweet. I have always thought you were lovable and I hope you are able to take in that your T feels that way too.

I know it's scary when you move closer and your fears of being sent away will kick in. But try to accept that your T won't send you away. If he sent you away it would hurt him too... and why would he want to hurt himself? There is a lot of attachment going both ways in this relationship which is a good thing!

Hugs
TN

((((YAKU))))

That was such a powerful story. I am glad that you and T were able to talk about many things that are very difficult to talk about. You are brave and strong. To quote Winnie the Pooh, "You are braver than you think, and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think."

(((TN))) (((Liese)))

I couldn't leave this up. Sorry. I am not doing well, even though my T is amazing right now. Sorry.