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Back for some 'advice'

mtfmtfMember
Hi All,

Lots of new faces since I was here last. Good to see this place growing! Smiler

I have been away for a little over 4 months now. Seems like forever! I'm still with the same T but struggling again (or maybe I should say 'still'). Being away from here and stopping my obsessive behaviors that kept my mind focused on my T have helped tremendously in reducing the anxiety and the constant feeling of needing my T and wanting so much from her that in reality I know I'll never get. Yet, I still struggle to know where I fit with her, still don't feel like I can say what I need to say, don't have the courage to confront her about things she does that I think should be handled differently, etc. I'm to the point now where I have actually looked up names of new therapists that my insurance will cover and I'm thinking about seriously looking for a new T. However, my attachment to my T is unfortunately still so strong that I don't know if I could make the break. Right now I'm just considering a consult with a second T or maybe seeing both of them, but without telling my current T. Kind of feels like cheating, so I struggle with that idea.

Anyway, I just can't decide what to do. How does one muster the courage to 'ante up' and just put it all out there? I agreed with T that I wouldn't write any more letters. Frowner I don't know HOW I could say the things I need to say or ask the questions I need answers to. I am such a coward. I think I used to secretly garner strength from the vibes of you members here that encouraged me and now that I haven't felt that for several months I've lost my so-called courage to speak of my concerns in my therapy. It's disheartening and I'm back to 'spinning' on therapy and my T again.

To catch up on what's happened the past 4 months, I started feeling better in November. Having just moved to a new city was stressful but because my T had been the one who pushed me to get out of where we were in my in-laws' mother-in-law apt. I felt like I had accomplished something great. Then the week before Thanksgiving my T called me for our usual 'check-in' call and told me she wouldn't have cell phone coverage the next week because she was going out of town to a different state to visit a friend of 46 years and they lived out in the middle of nowhere. She wished me a happy Thanksgiving and said good-bye. I had to call her a couple days later because I had been extra down and sort of feeling panicky. It was a Friday and I knew I couldn't make it through the weekend feeling like I was. I called her office phone that she said I could call and leave a message on, only she actually answered. I asked her if she was in a session and she said she was. I told her I was just going to leave a message and she asked me if it was something she needed to know. Well, I instantly felt stupid because I guess she didn't NEED to know, but I just told her I was having a really hard time. She said she'd call me on her cell phone on her way home and spent her entire 30 minute drive home on the phone with me. It helped because we realized together that her leaving the state was causing me some distress. She disclosed more about her trip and said she had to call her husband before leaving her cell coverage area and that she would call me too. She said she'd call back Monday morning to see how I was doing. When she called Monday I told her I didn't need her to call me from out of state--that I'd be fine. Can I just say that entire week she was gone was torture? Ugh. Anyway, she made it home safely and I saw her the following week. She chatted a bit about the trip, showed off her new ring she bought for herself and then we had therapy. I don't remember a lot about that session.

Then around the Christmas holidays I knew she was going to be out of her office for 3 weeks enjoying time with her family that was coming in from out of state. My last session was on the 13th and I didn't see her again until Jan. 7th. She called me on the 4th to see if I had a session with her anytime soon and said she had a cancellation. I chose to just keep my existing appointment. She asked how the holidays had gone and I asked her the same. She said they'd got 'snowed in' at the cabin but that it was good. So I saw her on the 7th and she told me more about getting snowed in, how the men had to put chains on the truck tires to get out and then repeat the process for the next truck, etc., but that she sat by the fire and read a book. One grandson had asked her if they were going to run out of food and his dad said, "Grandma brought a pickup truck full of food and we're probably going to end up taking half of it home." Okay... so then we had our session. I had missed her terribly so I just mostly was happy to be back in her office after almost a month of not seeing her.

Next session was Jan. 19th, a day after her husband's birthday. (She told me that--I didn't find it on the internet! Wink) She seemed like she had something on her mind and sure enough in our initial chit chat (that has now become more of an annoyance to me that a good thing) she mentioned that for her husband's birthday she had had a cancellation for her usual 7 o'clock session and told the secretary not to fill it. She called her husband and told him she would take him out to dinner for his birthday, her treat, and he got to pick the restaurant. Then she ticked off on her fingers over a dozen restaurants that he could have picked to go for his birthday dinner. After that she got this incredulous look on her face and asks, "Guess where he picked to go eat?" I had no idea, so I shrugged my shoulders and waited for her answer. She then said "Chuck-a-Rama", which is a buffet restaurant. I didn't think much of it because it was his birthday and his choice as to where to eat, but she seemed really irked that he had, of all places, picked this restaurant for his birthday dinner. I mentioned that is was probably because he could eat as much as he wanted of what he wanted, which seems to make men in general pretty happy, right? Then she went on and named restaurants again that she would have liked better, said that when their children had called to wish him a happy birthday that they too gave him a hard time about where he had picked to eat, and said that next year she'll just make reservations where she wants to eat. Eeker Okie dokie.

Next session set for Feb. 2, a Wednesday. She calls me the Wednesday before that, the week she would normally give me a check-in call. I'm a bit shocked she's calling me because it's not her usual day or time. She says she has a cancellation for Friday (two days from then) and would I rather take that appointment. Well, it was a better time for me so I said "yes". Later that afternoon I get a call from her secretary telling me that there isn't an opening for that day and that my T basically screwed up. She apologized for the 'false hope'. I felt like it was my T who should have called and apologized, not the secretary. And I didn't get my 'check-in' call, by the way. I guess she thought calling me about a cancellation was good enough, or maybe she felt stupid about the mix-up. Anyway, so the next week when I have my scheduled session she called me the day before to remind me of my session. This is her routine. I was pretty 'cool' on the phone with her because of what had happened and so I just said "hello" in maybe not the friendliest of tones because I knew it was her. Anyway, THEN she decides to apologize about the mix-up the week before and tells me it was the secretary's fault, that when she put the note on the secretary's desk about the change, there WAS an opening for the session she called me about. So I'm left wondering who is really at fault and although I got an apology from both women, it ticked me off that my T didn't bother to say anything about it until she HAD to call me. I was pretty cool throughout the conversation and eventually just said it was okay because what else was I going to say? That I'm pissed off that it took her almost a week to apologize? Yeah, I should have said that, but I'm a chicken. So I went to my session and she said she could tell I was down more than usual and I blamed it on PMS. Dumb!! She said she could tell on the phone the day before that something was wrong and wondered if she had done something. THat was my opportunity. Frowner She even asked me if my mood had anything to do with attachment stuff and I said, "No, I don't think so." Roll Eyes I could NOT summon the courage to bring up this stuff with her and tell her it was bugging me. I just stuffed it.

We had a good conversation about spiritual stuff that helped me feel closer and more connected to my T, but also left me seeing more of her humanness. It also ended up causing me to feel guilty later that evening because I hadn't been totally honest with her during my session. We both practice the same religion and have the same beliefs, so that was hard for me because I know I should have been honest with her and that she would be disappointed if she knew I lied to her. It gnawed at me for the entire evening until I finally decided to call her office phone at 11 p.m. and leave her a message telling her that I hadnt been totally honest with her about my mood and attachment stuff being connected. I told her I was sorry and that I felt like a huge hypocrite, but that I just didn't feel comfortable talking about it. I hoped she would call me the next morning and ask what was going on. Nope. I should know by now my T will not chase me.

Here's the other thing. As we walked to her office that day we passed the door of one of her colleagues and she stops me and points out this paper print out of a horse and cart and something about "here's a horse and cart for those 1000 charts" and says to me as she starts toward her office again, "There's a story behind that." Then we get in her office and she closes the door and starts telling me that her colleague has over 1000 charts in his office that haven't been billed. He said that he'd give them to the office staff for billing when they gave him a horse and cart for all of them. Okay, so that's a little wierd of the guy, and super unprofessional, but what about my T who's bagging on the guy to a patient?!! Eeker Then she says something about that's what you get when you have a narcissist that also has ADD. I was dumbfounded by the whole thing.

I sometimes feel like my T has become pretty comfortable with me and knows she'll get the reaction she wants from me. Unfortunately I always give her what she wants. What was worse was that we were both wearing the watchbands that we had each given each other. Made me realize that somethings really not right. Is reciprocation something a therapist does with a client? I gave her the watchband as a thank you gift, but then a month or two later she gave me one she had made out of her mother's old jewelry and it was a 'leftover' that she had. It felt weird then, but was weird to me that she would wear the band I had given her on the day she knew I was coming for a session. That's the second time.

Anyway, I'm just really confused by this relationship and all its issues. The option/offer of a post-therapy social relationship has screwed things up by far the most, as I just have too much of an emotional investment in the relationship now to really "DO" therapy the way it should be done. I often wonder if I have any hope of getting where I need to with my T or if I should just run the opposite direction and find a new T. My insurance doesn't include many female Ts and I KNOW I would end up with erotic transference with a male T, so I don't have a lot of options.

Any insight or advice or suggestions would be appreciated. I feel a lot of care from my T, I know she has my best interest at heart, but I wonder if she has her own emotional investment in our relationship or what? My therapy has 'stalled' for reasons I can't really determine. I'm depressed, meds aren't working, we aren't actively working on anything together like trauma stuff, I'm in the middle of medical tests for adrenal fatigue and other hormonal issues and T doesn't want to do anything until she knows what's going on. I just feel like I'm paying for conversation. Sometimes I get suggestions from her about things I can do to help with my negative feelings about my failings as a mother, but I don't have a cooperative husband and it's seeming like she's intentionally steering away from anything to do with my marriage. It doesn't help that I'm also dealing with strong attachment feelings for her. It's harder to see things clearly and make decisions with strong emotions involved. I'm terrible at it.

Wow, this turned into a novel. Sorry about that, but I am just in a bind right now and need some help seeing my way out of it. Do I talk it out with her, or just break it off? Those of you that have followed my previous posts know I have a lot of other stuff that figures into the relationship. I feel I'm at a crossroads of sorts and can't decide which path to take.

MTF
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J jillMember
mtf, good to see you again. sorry, i just have a second, but, i think there are enough red flags with your t that a consult could be reasonable. the social issue, i dunno, that is a big red flag that i think would make me uncomfortable. are her needs to big a part of the session?? with the chit chat and all??

i have had two t's that don't know about each other. YOU are the one that has to balance that, not them. YOU have to do what makes sense for YOU. i would do both.

talk it out with her, and, maybe, explore other options. for me, i couldn't risk alot til i had some 'insurance' in the form of another t, but once i got that, i pushed harder on my concerns, and really, the relationship wasn't sustaining like i needed it to, to continue to work forward. but, i did not have the time invested that you do, so, first, talk to her.

i've also read alot that states that the therapist/client relationship is more critical than the mode of therapy towards healing. so, if the relationship has red flags, i would advise talking about them all with her, and exploring, possibly, a consult.

y'no?

you are not cheating on a spouse, y'no?

you are in charge of getting yourself to a better place, and if exploring other t's is a strong thought, you should, imho, follow that hunch.

that hunch is probably something, if you are like me, that i have a hard time listening to, but, oh, it is so right sometimes.

i hope that helps. you are not sinning by exploring this, and, imho, without sin there should not be guilt. imho.

good luck, and keep us posted! jill
mtfmtfMember
Thanks ladies! I'm feeling the 'vibes' again! Big Grin

Jill--I'm glad to see your therapy is finally what you have been looking for! Smiler Thanks for putting it bluntly for me. Red flags abound in my therapy and I KNOW I need to address them. All of them. Thanks for the encouragement.


Blanket Girl--The social relationship issue is one that came about in March last year. I had written my T a long letter and read it to her in session. It was basically about how I felt that she had been ignoring my attachment issues, skirting them, changing the subject when I brought up my obsessive thoughts (about her). I told her I was basically feeling I couldn't make progress if she wouldn't deal with my issues with me. She doesn't like attachment issues and is adamant that they are about primary relationships (spouse, parents, etc.) and not the therapist. Yeah, whatever. I've told her I don't totally buy that. Anyway, she felt awful because she claims she had been unaware that my issues were about her, even though I had told her that I was having OC issues about her. She thought they were about my physical therapist who I had also had an emotional attachment to (long story). So we had this really interesting limbic connection because she felt/wondered that my trust in her had been completely damaged and I told her it hadn't or I wouldn't be there working things out. I told her that my attachment issues were really causing me a lot of pain, and that I felt terrified about ending therapy with her one day, that it would feel like I was walking away from her funeral. She said it didn't have to be that way--that she still sees 2 or 3 ex-patients now that their therapy is complete. She said after she discharges me when my therapy is completed that if I want to I can come by the hospital (she works in the outpatient psychology clinic) and we can go out to lunch. That's all she's offered, but that's a lot! It took me off guard for sure. I told her I didn't want her holding out some promise she couldn't keep, that I didn't want her charity because she simply took pity on my situation and the way I was feeling about her. She said it wasn't about charity, that she genuinely liked me and that there are some patients she has a connection with or a liking to, etc. Anyway, she said I couldn't come back to therapy if I chose a social relationship--it would be my choice. So after that I was dumbfounded! And it completely changed the dynamics of our relationship from my point of view. With the potential to have a friendship with her, how do you do 'therapy'? I wouldn't do therapy with a friend, ya know? Everything has been much more complicated than it most likely would have been otherwise. Anyway, that's the story. Yeah, a boundary violation is a good description. I hadn't quite looked at it that way before. Yes, it's time to shake things up because if I don't, I'll STAY stuck. Thanks for the words of encouragement to go for it!


Lady Grey--My T asked me to stop writing her letters because that became the only way I would ever express my real concerns and deepest fears, etc. She wants me to be verbal with my issues, not hide behind letters. I have to admit that two of the three I wrote her I actually dropped off at her office rather than reading in session and those issues in the letters never got addressed. I guess that she saw the letters as my way of dumping a lot of my issues into one big thing for her to read when she feels I should address them individually in sessions. I see her point, but I struggle so much to talk about things that it's much easier to just write it all out. She complimented me on my ability to express myself in writing, but said that writing in therapy is sort of my downfall. I need to learn to face my fears and issues and own them in relationship with her--face to face, person to person. I hope that makes things clearer.


MTF
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Hi MTF... it's good to see you again. It really has been awhile and I often wonder how you were doing with your T.

As to what you are asking... well from one who has been forced to start therapy all over again, I would say that you should try to work things out and ask for the changes you feel you need before you change Ts. It's not easy starting over and developing a new relationship. It's even more difficult to try to find someone who you can feel comfortable with.

I am concerned hearing about so much chit chat. But I am also concerned with all the self-disclosure about her family, her dinner plans, her vacation experiences etc. It's okay to mention where she went or when she was going and coming but the details are too much and puts you in the position of holding back what you need to say to her and it makes the session too much about her and not you and you are paying for her time to focus on YOU. She is throwing up red flags all over the place as far as proper boundaries go.

I think if you consulted with another T who had proper boundaries they would tell you that her boundaries are inconsistent and too loose. As one with a former T with constantly shifting boundaries I know first hand the damage they can do and the pain that comes from this. The boundaries are there to protect both T and client.

I would have a serious talk with her and tell her that you want to cut out the chit chat. I do VERY little of this with my T now. He comes in and says how are you ... I say horrible and we launch into what is troubling me. This makes the best use of the time I'm paying him for. Now maybe we will do a tiny bit more of the small talk as we know each other better and when I am less traumatized, but he has told me the focus is on me not him.

I don't think you have anything to lose by telling her how you feel and it may make a huge difference in your therapy. I'd rather see you get what you need, including better boundaries and more focus on you, than having to go out and do this again.

Please keep us posted.
Many hugs,
TN
seablueseablueMember
Hi MTF!
Good to see you. Smiler So Sorry you're hurting again.....or like you said...still. I am really feeling like there are a lot of signs that are speaking pretty loudly to you. Getting another perspective really sounds like a good idea even if it's just the one time. It could really help you trust what you might even already know somewhere inside. From what you described, I agree that it sounds like your T is getting comfy with you and perhaps blurring boundaries a bit. I have to wonder if she may think it helps you feel sloser to her, or it's somehow what you wanted from her?? In any case, I think your intuitions are telling you something important. I don't mean that you should neccessarily leave her, just that exploring those feelings and talking to her (if you can Frowner ) and another T may clear things up a little. Please let us know how it goes. Will be thinking of you!!
seablue
Attachment GirlAttachment GirlAdmin
Hi MTF,
I just wanted to say that it's really good to hear from you, I've missed you. I am sorry that you are still struggling with your relationship with your T. I meant to write a much longer post but am not in a very good place right now, forgive me. But I did want you to know that I had read your post. I hope the consult helps you to achieve some clarity about the situation.

AG
mtfmtfMember
Hi Ladies. Thank you for the replies. Sorry I'm a bit delayed. I've decided to go off the Pristiq I've been on for the past nine months as it has been causing hair loss and other side effects, and now I am having horrible withdrawal symptoms. Not fun!

TN--after watching you go through what you did with your oldT I have to agree with you that it would be better to discuss the boundary issues now than wait for them to get worse and end up feeling like I have to run. It's scary how big a deal boundaries are and how at one point in therapy we might wish they were lax, but later only end up feeling uncomfortable because they are loose. It's a double-edged sword of sorts. I'm glad that you are finding some help with newT even though I am sure that the pain of what happened with oldT still lingers and is still so difficult to deal with. Your newT sounds really good, and I am glad you found him. Smiler Thanks for your advice about this issue with my T. ((TN))


Monte--I knew you would understand the whole attachment issue connected with separating from my T. That is by far the biggest issue I have here. I can see and feel the red flags that are present and know that I'm stuck, but it's the 'doing' something about it (i.e. consulting someone else) that causes me so much angst. I worry that as soon as I mention anything about this stuff to my T she will become defensive about it, tell me it's my own fault because she's giving me what I asked for (more of her in sessions), and will likely suggest that she transfer me to another T. I feel like I still have this ideal image of her on the pedestal but now I'm running around having to put touch-up paint on her where her own issues are showing through, and trying to keep her looking perfect in my mind somehow. That it can't possibly be so bad that I might have to actually leave her and find a new T. Frowner And the despair this causes me is great. I can't make up for her failings and keep her perfect. I struggle with allowing myself (or rather forcing myself) to come to grips with that reality.

You are right, she isn't trained in attachment issues and does view them as a distraction from the real issues at hand (primary relationships, in her opinion). I honestly feel like I am the first person she has dealt with this with, as she seems to just be unsure herself of what to do to help me. I know seeing another T and finding out what someone else has to offer and how much more help I could be getting would likely make me want to switch Ts, and part of that scares me because it means letting go of my current T. You nailed that one on the head. I think inside me somewhere is already the knowledge that I'm looking at a bad thing waiting to happen. Thanks for understanding me here. It helps a lot. Smiler


Seablue--Good to see you again! It's been a while. I've wondered about you and your therapy and how you're doing. I agree with you that my T likely thinks what she's doing is helping me feel more connected to her, that it's what I want from her. I so wish that I had seen all this coming. But you're right about how seeing another T for advice could help me come to finally trust what I have likely 'known' on a deeper level for quite a while now. Frowner I think that is what I'm resisting. I'm sort of a black and white thinker and look at it as though seeing another T means it's all over with my T because I will see the reality of everything and know that I have to make a change. It's hard when you know doing something will benefit you and be what your really need, but you just can't seem to get yourself there because of what you have to lose, even if that loss could be positive. Thanks for the encouragement to do something. Smiler


AG--Sorry you're not doing well. I know that song all too well. I hope you feel better soon. Thanks for the reply. Take care! ((AG))


STRM--Thank you for chiming in and offering support. I too hope I can find some resolution to the issues at hand.


MTF
mtfmtfMember
So I made an appointment with a new T for this coming Wednesday. Eeker I then see my regular T on Friday. I'm really freaking out about all of this!!

I have no idea what to say to the new T, like what to ask her about, what kinds of questions I need answered to decide whether or not she's a T I'd like to actually stay with. I don't know how to ask her what she thinks about my current situation with my T. How do you put it all out there in an hour? I could spend days talking about the issues I have with my current T.

Anyone have any good questions to ask? I think I'm probably more nervous about seeing my regular T on Friday because I'm so angry at her right now and feeling really let down. She was supposed to call me for a check-in this last week and didn't. That made things worse for me. I'm starting to feel like I just need to leave her and see someone else. My head thinks this is a good idea, but my heart is saying something completely different.

I've been reading Michael Kahn's, "Between Therapist and Client, the New Relationship" and been going back and forth about all of this. I keep seeing my issues with my T as transference/countertransference that needs resolution--no matter how scary it is for me or how uncomfortable I might make my T. I'm tired of feeling like I can't be open with her about my feelings and issues with her without her putting her fingers in her ears and doing the "La la la la la" thing. She needs to know how much her attitude about the 'elephant in the room' has hurt me--that she's not been professional about it. That her biggest mistakes were her judgment and criticism about my issues with my PT at my intake assessment, and that really off-the-wall offer of post-therapy "friendship" to spare me the pain of terminating one day. She's screwed things up for me big time so that I don't feel like I can say what I need to say in my therapy. What an impasse!!

I talked to my mother about this situation with T and she thinks I should just walk away. She's done therapy with this T on two different occasions before (although both very brief) and she can't believe some of the things I told her that T has said. She told me I don't owe my T anything. That just like changing doctors, dentist, etc., if I'm not happy with their service I don't have to make an appointment to go in and tell them that, I just find a new person to meet my needs and call it 'quits' with the old one. They don't need to know why. My mother doesn't understand this attachment to my T and tells me that I am making more out of it than I should be. That T isn't my friend, I'm not obligated to let her know why I'm unhappy and leaving, that I simply just go elsewhere. Well, I don't see it that way. I know I am making more of it than I should and that I am way too emotionally involved with my T, but part of me really wants to work things out with her, to at the very least get her to finally accept my feelings and let me know through her reaction to them that I am OK and not the freak I feel she thinks I am. Her lack of acceptance of my feelings about her have caused me so much pain. I realize that I may not get that acceptance ever. Is that really so hard to give? It feels like I must be asking for the impossible by the way T reacts to me. Frowner

Anyway, I'm trying to get psyched up for this week, as it's going to be hard but hopefully positive and beneficial. Any ideas/suggestions about what to ask/say to either T would be great. I get so frozen when I have to do face-to-face stuff like this. I'm sure it's not easy for anyone, but I'm really struggling here. Frowner


MTF
S stoppersMember
I actually have seen 6 other therapists during the 5 months I have been seeing T1. Now I am trying to decide between T1 and T2 - both women and I have no strong reaction to t2 but a very strong and quite unsettling attachment to t1. While interviewing the others, I told them I was shopping for a therapist, that I had no idea what was supposed to happen in therapy, why I was unhappy/unsettled with t1, and that I did not know what a good fit looked like and if they would tell me what they thought about fit and what we were doing there. One was way too perky for me, one was much more psychoanlysis oriented than I want, and one answered her phone and got up and walked around while I talked. So those were easy to rule out. One was probably equal to t2 but her office was further out. Not the most scientific approach, but I did find it easy to rule some out. I did tell t1 I was interviewing others and she just said it was my decision. It is harder to choose between the two than it was to get down to them.
mtfmtfMember
Stoppers,

Thanks for the reply. Do you mind my asking why you have been T-shopping while you've been with T1?

I don't like the thought of having to interview several Ts, but I suppose it might take that to find one I feel like I 'fit' with. I thought I could just go to a T and work stuff through and be done. Boy, was I naive. Frowner I didn't realize that there were so many issues surrounding therapists and their theoretical orientations and how their reactions to you could affect you, and I had never heard of transference before falling into it with this T, although I have had it with several other professionals in my past. Tough stuff!!

MTF
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Hi MTF... as you know I have been forced to go out and find a new T under really trying circumstances. Despite my trauma and pretty severe depression from being abandoned I tried really hard to think of the questions I needed to ask a new T and what would be of importance to me. I hope I learned a few things along the way and feel that I have now found the best T possible for me. It was actually easy to ask the hard questions because I had no attachment to any of the Ts I interviewed and I basically didn't give a crap about what they thought of me at that point.

Some questions:

How do you handle terminations? (That took them all by surprise because it's not a subject people really address until the end, but I needed to know) What would make you terminate a client? What if the client came up with issues you were not very experienced in? Have you ever forcefully terminated anyone??

What is your modality of therapy? CBT? Psychoanalytic? Psychodynamic? Object relations?

What do you know about attachment theory? How would you feel if a client developed an attachment to you? Has it ever happened to you? How much do you know about transference? Does it make you uncomfortable?

Where did you go to school? What kinds of training and experience do you have? (MTF... I have found that Psy.D.'s have more "clinical" training than most Ph.D's who are more research trained and don't get clinical experience until the go into private practice or work in a clinic after licensing. Some LCSW or MSW's may know more about attachment but you would have to ask them and also find out their clinical experience, what kinds of client do they usually work with? I think your best bet would be to look for a "clinical" psychologist)

Do you have knowledge and expeience with complex trauma? Tell me about it.

What is your outside of session contact policy? Do you allow email? Texting? Phone calls? Do you have a beeper? How long are sessions? During crisis can I have more than one appointment per week?

Aside from the questions I would take in my surroundings... is the office clean and comfortable? do I think I could spend a lot of time here? Is there staff? How do I feel about the T? Warm, cold, aloof, caring?

I asked all of those questions of most of the Ts I interviewed. My current T got the job because he fit what I wanted... male, 50ish, in my insurance plan, located near my office, nice comfortable office ... and most importantly... he offers generous outside contact, totally understands attachment... welcomes it, thinks it's very healthy and places importance on the relationship yet holds his boundaries in a fair and caring way. He is a PsyD with lots of clinical experience (25 years) yet is open to anything I have to offer by way of new information.

Hope this helps. Good luck and let us know how it all goes.

Hugs
TN
S stoppersMember
The reason I began checking out other ts =
I am not certain if T1 listens to anything I tell her, has no memory of any details about what I tell her and often seems confused when I tell her I just answered those same questions the week before. She will tell me that she wants to address something in the next appointment and then never bring it up again. And sometimes it seems like she is trying to change or fix things about me that I am not particularly interested in changing and are not why (or even related to in any way I can see) the reasons I decided to try therapy. She does not answer questions directly. When I tried to address some of these concerns with her, she simply said I was resisting. I picked her in a mostly haphazard way and then realized I probably should have done some shopping around.

The well thought out list by TN is certainly more organized and precise than my approach which is much more - how much do I mistrust you on sight?
mtfmtfMember
Hi Monte.

Thanks for asking about my session today with the 2nd T. It was interesting. I didn't get a direct response from her about what she thought about my T's behaviors or what she thinks I should do Roll Eyes Frowner, but she did say some things that have struck me.

She said that I seem to struggle with codependent issues, hence the extreme obsession about pleasing my T, caretaking behaviors (not wanting to make my T uncomfortable by bringing up my attachment/obsession with her, meeting her needs by giving her the responses she wants to the self-disclosures she puts out there, etc.) and I have wondered if I was codependent since my issues with my physical therapist but when I first saw my T she didn't seem to think that was my problem. Well, now I have seen a T who thinks that it IS my problem, and I do, too.

She told me that I have lost myself because of my fierce loyalty to people that I become obsessed with or in close relationship with (my husband, parents, PT, and now T) and that I don't have self-love, self-esteem, or self-loyalty. That is what I need to work on, among other things. It totally resonated with me. She said I need to become my own best self-advocate and start working on getting what I need in healthy relationships.

She asked me what I wanted to happen with my T. I told her I just want to fix it all. Yeah, caretaker all the way. She asked what I think will happen when I confront my T. I told her either she'll be super upset and do the whole apologetic/tearing up thing again like she did last March when I read her my fist letter, or she will get defensive and angry/hurt about it all.

She told me I need to be true to myself, to my needs, to my emotional/spiritual/physical self. Only I can decide what to do in this situation. She said that if I decided to be done with my T that I needed to have some sort of closure, not just walk away without discussing all of the issues I have--that I would regret not closing the door on that very important and emotionally invested relationship. She said that those issues could very well be the jumping off point in my therapy. That I could go in Friday and have an amazing session by bringing all of this to the forefront.

She said that I can't see two Ts. Ethics code doesn't recommend it and my insurance won't pay for me to see two Ts. She also said that my T's offer of a post-therapy relationship is against the ethics code. No kidding Roll Eyes. She was taken by surprise at some of the things my T has said/done. She said I have great insight and wisdom about all of these issues. She was impressed. She was very kind, validated the fact that my T hasn't kept my therapy to being about ME instead of about her needs, too, and that I have an unbalanced relationship with my T because of my caretaking needs. That T is sort of enabling me to stay in the caretaker role is what I understood her to be saying. Yes, that is true.

She wants me to call her and let her know how it all goes Friday, whether or not I decide to come see her or stay with my current T. She said she wanted me to know that she was behind me in my decision, that she wanted me to be loyal to myself and make the "best damn decision" I could, that I need to do what's best for me and my growth. It will take self-love and self-loyalty to get me there, no matter what decision I make. The main thing is to be true to myself.

She told me right upfront that she is a recovering alcoholic of 25 years and a recovering codependent. She said her codependence would have taken her life way before her alcoholism did. She said she had to run from her first T, too. Literally it was a life and death situation for her as her depression was so bad in that relationship that she became suicidal. Only time ever in her life. She said leaving that T was super hard (I'm totally relating to her right now) and that it ended badly because that T got defensive, but she said it was the best decision she could have made. That was a changing point for her in her own life.

So I see (again) some parallels with this T and my own life. Same thing with my current T. That is what scares me the most. I fear that if I have too much in common with the T they will end up enabling me and I will keep repeating the old patterns. Frowner This T seems WAY ahead of current T (she's a PhD. and T is a LCSW) and practices positive psychology. She cringed when I told her T had started doing schema therapy with me. This woman thinks CBT is a reductive sort of therapy and she doesn't like it and doesn't practice it. She said she wants to see people actually HEAL. Smiler

I like her enough. She seems knowledgeable, helpful, understands what is going on with me without too much information, seems to know what she would do to help me, although I didn't get around to asking her the questions TN offered. If I choose to go back to see her again I will ask her more. At the end she offered me a hug or a handshake, it was up to me. I took the handshake. Not hugging someone I don't even know! Eeker The hugs are a big part of my emotional attachment to my current T too and I don't want to start down that road with a new T. If I do see someone else, I will go about therapy with them in a COMPLETELY different way that I did with my T. It has all been a disaster and I have SO MANY regrets with her. It's too bad hindsight always comes after the bad experiences instead of before Roll Eyes.

Anyway, now I am super stressed because T will call me in the morning to remind me of my Friday session. I don't think I will even answer either of my phones--just let her leave a message. I am dreading my session with her Friday. I feel like it's the end and that scares me really bad. My guts are churning and I feel waves of adrenaline hit me every time I think about what's going to happen, even though I don't know what will happen. I can't make up my mind until I actually get in there and deal with it all. Right now I don't want to leave my T, but this morning talking to the new T I was all psyched up and ready to tell T where to go! Now I've lost that momentum and I'm feeling a lot of fear and resistance inside. Help!!! Frowner

Anyway, I'm exhausted after today's events and need to go to bed. My head is pounding. Tomorrow is going to be hell waiting for Friday to get here. I just wish all Ts were perfect and could help us like they are supposed to without their own stuff getting in the way. It's so damn painful. Frowner


MTF
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Hi MTF... thanks for updating us about your session with the T2. I was thinking of you today and wondering how things went with your T. Were you able to put this all out there for her to discuss with you?

It seems that you did find out a fair amount of information from this T and she seemed to be able to pinpoint some important things even without knowing you very well. My new T is like that. Of course they want to hear "our" story but they are also aware enough about certain behavior and certain links to the past that make us who we are today and explain the feelings we try to cope with.

I was glad to hear what she said about doing schema therapy and CBT. I know some members get annoyed with me that I am not supportive of straight CBT therapy but I have seen it happen over and over again... when a person with trauma and attachment issues gets involved with a CBT T it never works out because CBT does not work with attachment/trauma. You need to be able to go back to the PAST to understand the feelings you wrestle with in the here and now. She seems able to do that and how the healing actually works. Good sign.

MTF I understand your dilemma. It is gut wrenching to begin again with a new T. It's so hard to let go of all you worked for and how hard you tried to make the relationship work. I felt like such a pathetic failure when my T abandoned me. How could I manage to be thrown out of therapy where I am PAYING the person to talk to me and be in a relationship with me?? And I didn't even DO anything I was just me, talking about my problems. It was not like I was seductive, or violent, or didn't pay my bills. I was just not wanted. And so... I know the pain of starting over but if you find the right T, the one who understands how hard and scary this is, then you will be okay. They will meet you where you are in the process and you will find that it is different but better and you don't have to work so hard.

I do agree you should phase out and have closure to this therapy before beginning with someone else IF you do decide to leave. That closure is SO important. It may be difficult but I would advise not to skip it. I wish I had that opportunity for me and my son.

Please let us know how you are doing and how your session went. Hoping good things for you.

TN
mtfmtfMember
Sorry this is long and rambly. I need to get this all put down somewhere before it totally leaves my mind. Feeling so distraught today. I saw my T yesterday and it didn't go like I had hoped. I think I was hoping that she would get all upset and emotional on me and that we would have another connecting session like we did last March and that things would be fixed and I could keep seeing her. Nope. Frowner

I started out in the waiting room waiting for her for almost 15 minutes. This is right directly after her lunch hour, so I don't understand why she was 15 minutes late. Then she came out and invited me back to her office. She asked how I was doing and I said, "Shitty". I don't usually talk like that, so I sort of shocked my T. She said, "Oh! Well, let's go back and talk about it."

So we got into her office and she apologized that it was a mess (which it wasn't) and said she was in the middle of working on two court cases. Some letter was up on her computer monitor so I guess that's what she was doing that kept her from coming out to get me on time.

She asked me what was going on and I just told her that I feel like my therapy has failed, that I'm not making progress. She said she could tell that I was angry and asked me if we could talk about that. I told her I was angry, hurt, and didn't know what to do. I told her that I wasn't there to point the finger of blame, and she said OK, she just wanted to know why I was angry. That when she called me to remind me about my previous session that she could tell on the phone that I was angry, that in session she asked me if it had anything to do with attachment stuff and I said "no" and then called her and left her a message that I hadn't been totally honest with her. I told her that she brought up the attachment stuff at the end of the session when time was up and that I feel like she does that on purpose to avoid it because she knows I won't discuss it. She said that we had talked about everything else, the stuff we always talk about and that I didn't bring anything up. She said we keep "plowing the same ground" and I agree. It's the same stuff every session. She didn't give me a reason as to why she avoids the attachment stuff. She said there have been times where she's felt very connected to me and times where I'm really distant and withdrawn. She feels like she can't meet my expectations because what works one time with me doesn't work the next. She said she was sorry that she has let me down.

I told her I was frustrated about her seeming unwillingness to talk about my attachment stuff, that I get resistance and defenses when I do. She didn't agree. She said that she has 3 other patients with attachment stuff, but I'm the only one with the obsessive component. She said that is because the other women have husbands that are coming with them to work on their marriages and give support to the wife so she can work through her attachment issues and place her focus on her marriage/spouse which is where it belongs. She knows my H won't come to therapy and that is part of my problem. I'm in a marriage that isn't working for me and my H won't do his part/give me what I need so that I can lose the attachment/focus on my T.

She asked me what I wanted to do--have her transfer me within the clinic, refer me elsewhere, or take a break for a while? I told her I didn't know--that what I really wanted was to just fix it all, even though I know I can't. She asked if I was willing to look at my OC stuff with a male T in the clinic. I told her I was afraid of becoming attached to HIM, like I did with my PT. She said he wasn't easy to get attached to. I sat there thinking, "Sheesh, lady!! You don't understand this very well, do you?!" I told her I had thought my PT was a jerk when I started with him, only to do a 180 and end up emotionally attached to him. It can happen with anyone!

I told her that her offer of a post-therapy relationship had changed the dynamics of the relationship for me. She asked me if it had felt unsafe. I told her yes. She seemed surprised by that. She didn't really ask me why. She asked me if I knew what the dynamic of the attachment was--what I was going for. She said that I idealize the people I do this with--put them on a pedestal and sort of make them an icon. I think that they have it all together and that they are above me, have a better life, etc., and that if I could just be them or have their life or be a part of their life all my problems would go away. I put so much energy into it and it becomes obsessive. She talked a bit about the obsessive thoughts and about how I am afraid of them so I end up trying to push them away which only perpetuates the problem. She recommended actually entertaining the thoughts for a predetermined amount of time, looking at them and even laughing at them because they are just fantasy and not real. That if I give the thoughts their space to exist instead of worrying about having them that they will lose their power. Hmmm.

She told me that the real 'elephant in the room' is my marriage. That my attachment and obesession are distractions from the real problem, and that she thinks I've known that all along because I'm "a smart cookie". Yeah, I do definitely have problems in my marriage. And yes, it takes both of us to make those problems. But what do you do when your H thinks that therapy is a joke and doesn't EVER want to participate? She said I need to get an ecclesiastical leader or someone with authority or influence to persuade my H that therapy for our marriage is critical. That he needs to decide to become part of the solution rather than continue to be part of the problem. She said if we (she and I) were friends and outside the constrains of therapy, she would have my H and I go out on dates and do 'couple' things with her and her H and other couples so that I could see how I'm not just ME, but part of WE. That H and I aren't independent people just playing house, but we're part of a team and that is how it works. She said that the attachment/obsession codependent stuff and the parenting problems and other issues would get a lot better if my H and I could work together to fix things. She said the healthier I get the stronger I will need to be, as the changes I make in myself will rock his world and he'll have to adjust or things will collapse.

She encouraged me to get into school and get myself a degree and a means to support myself as soon as possible. Then at worst I will be able to support myself, and at best I will be contributing to the family financially. And my H will know that I am in the marriage because I want to be and not because I have to be. I am in a weak position because I have nowhere to go and no means to support myself and 3 kids. I need to empower myself.

She gave me her OCD workbook to read over. She wanted me to consider seeing this other male T that does OCD work, and asked again what I wanted to do. I told her my parents feel like I need to find another T because I'm not making progress and she said she thinks that is probably a good idea. Then she wrote down the name of a marriage counselor and gave that to me. She still isn't hearing that my H won't do it.

She stood up at the end and put her arm around me. I had my purse on the other shoulder and books in that arm but I leaned in toward her for a hug and she put her other arm around me and hugged me. While we were in the hug she said she wished she could take it all away and make it better--that she would if she could. As we were leaving the office she said she wanted her workbook back and I reminded her that she still has my copy of "A General Theory of Love". She realized that she did and said we'd trade back when I was done. Then she told me some irrelevant stuff about books and another T in the clinic that recently retired and gave all his books to her. The disconnect at the end (a very detached "take care") was very unemotional and left me feeling really sad. She told me to get the other guy's card on my way out and then came around the corner herself and made sure I got the right card. She had told me during the session to call her and let her know what I wanted to do--that she didn't want me to make any rash decisions but to think and pray about it. Frowner

Now I just feel dead inside. Empty, aching, and wishing I could go back and do it all over again from the start. I keep blaming myself for things not going well and thinking that if I could have just been willing and mentally able to do schema therapy I would be in a totally different place right now. I regret telling her about the post-therapy relationship making me feel unsafe. Now I wish I could still have that, even though part of me knows that is not healthy and that she wouldn't give me that if I didn't finish therapy with her properly anyway. It just hurst like hell right now and I feel like I'm hanging on the edge of a cliff with no lifeline. I cut the rope myself, and now I have to try to pull myself back up to the cliff, with a 100 pound backpack weighing me down. My T said she was sorry that I quit my meds 3 weeks ago--that I need them and that my depression will just get worse over the next few weeks. I do need them, but was losing so much hair I couldn't take it any more. Nothing seems to work for me anyway.

Can I just say I'm at rock bottom and don't see a way out of the abyss? I guess I need to call my T Monday, ask her to discharge me so my insurance will cover me seeing another T, take her book back to her and get mine back from her, then see a doctor to get on some anti-depressants again. I also need to call the T I saw on Wednesday and get back in to her ASAP. And I have no deisre or motivation to do any of this. I feel like I just want to stay in bed and cry and ruminate on all that has happened. This black hole I'm in really sucks. Frowner

MTF
mad hattermad hatterMember
quote:
You are a smart cookie, but the attachment is not a 'distraction', it is evidence of deeper wounding that needs to be addressed. Your T seems to imply that addressing your marital/social problems will fix your problems in general. But your marital problems are simply more evidence of that one deeper wound.

Hi MTF, I am sorry to see you going through such pain. Frowner I have to agree with Monte on this one. I can imagine where your T is coming from and that she has sincere intentions, but it seems she lacks a bigger understanding of attachment. Knowing what I do about her religious background and the comments you report she has made, in my opinion she may be letting her personal values and beliefs dictate your therapy where she has reached her limit of expertise. I do agree with your T about the need for empowerment, and achieving the ability to support yourself so it will be your choice whether to stay in the marriage. (I am facing that uphill climb myself.) I also think she is right to predict your marriage could crumble if you make changes in therapy while your spouse does not. However, that does not mean marriage counseling is the main cure for your attachment issues. If your husband was willing, it might be helpful, but there is just more to it than that.

I could be wrong. Maybe some forum members who have done marriage counseling AND personal therapy dealing with attachment issues can attest to the value of one versus the other, or both.

I'm sorry that your meds were having such undesirable side effects. I don't think I would continue putting up with that either. I do worry if you have gone off meds cold turkey that it will exacerbate a downward spiral at this crucial time. I know you are weary of trying meds that don't work out, but maybe there is still something out there you haven't tried yet?

I think you are showing incredible strength to have gone to this new T (even if you don't feel strong at the moment). She may turn out to be the light at the end of the tunnel. Don't give up. Just hold on.
Attachment GirlAttachment GirlAdmin
Hi MTF,
This will be a little hit and run. As I read through your post, there were just a few things that popped out at me that I wanted to say something about. I do want to stress that what I'm going to say is very much based on my experiences and therefore, may not fit. But I wanted to offer my experience in case it might help. And I know that it's important to consider what your T is saying to you because I am seeing this situation from much more of a distance and very much colored by my own experience. So BIG grain of salt.

quote:
I started out in the waiting room waiting for her for almost 15 minutes. This is right directly after her lunch hour, so I don't understand why she was 15 minutes late.

You may have been perfectly right, she was working on a court case and lost track of time. But this is a classic move by a therapist who is frustrated with a client, won't admit the feeling to themselves and so acts the feeling out. I could be overreacting and you would know much better than I do, but I am concerned that there was some subtle form of retaliation taking place because of her own frustration at not being able to help you.

quote:
She said that she has 3 other patients with attachment stuff, but I'm the only one with the obsessive component. She said that is because the other women have husbands that are coming with them to work on their marriages and give support to the wife so she can work through her attachment issues and place her focus on her marriage/spouse which is where it belongs.


Ummm, pardon my language, but bull$***! I can very honestly say that there was definitely an obsessive component in my relationship with my T. I thought about him all the time. He was the first thing I thought of when I woke up and the last thing I thought of before I went to sleep. And he got a lot of time inbetween too. Big Grin The week between appointments could feel like an eternity and for years I didn't make it between appointments without contacting him. There was a time when it felt like if I lost him it would literally kill me, that's how important he felt. And guess what, I'm married! We were seeing my T for marital counseling as well as my individual counseling. My husband and I have been married for almost 25 years. I was very open with him about my feelings and he was very supportive of my working through them. But in my experience it wasn't focusing on my husband that allowed me to not focus on my T. It was focusing on my T and learning how to move closer in a relationship (which was freakin' scary, let me tell you) was what allowed me to learn to move closer to my husband. It could sometimes be really confusing because my husband is a good, loving man whom is eminently trustworthy. But I still had very deep, intense feelings for my T. The only reason it was ok was because I knew my T had the boundaries and nothing would happen. And it was in the relationship with my T that I was able to work through these feelings and heal. What I asked of him would have been too much for any other adult relationship to bear, including my marriage. The truth is that we found ourselves' in couples counseling from our trying to work through our baggage with each other. We needed help to do so.

quote:
She knows my H won't come to therapy and that is part of my problem. I'm in a marriage that isn't working for me and my H won't do his part/give me what I need so that I can lose the attachment/focus on my T.


Again, my marriage went from being on the brink of disaster to being the best it's probably ever been without changing my attachment or focus on my T one iota. My husband is my husband, but my T is my attachment figure. The only way to work through the attachment for me wasn't to shift my focus on to my husband, but to complete the developmental steps I hadn't been able to complete as a child because I didn't have a dependable, attuned, trustworthy attachment figure. Don't get me wrong, I do believe we form an attachment to our spouses, but it's nature is not developmental. It's an adult to adult connection. In order to learn what I needed to, I needed a relationship close to a parental one where it was only about my needs and I could be dependent for a longer time than would be healthy in even a romantic relationship.

quote:
I told her that her offer of a post-therapy relationship had changed the dynamics of the relationship for me. She asked me if it had felt unsafe. I told her yes. She seemed surprised by that.


O M G I find that just terrifying. How unaware is she of the purpose of the boundaries and structure of a good theraputic relationship.
quote:
She asked me if I knew what the dynamic of the attachment was--what I was going for. She said that I idealize the people I do this with--put them on a pedestal and sort of make them an icon. I think that they have it all together and that they are above me, have a better life, etc., and that if I could just be them or have their life or be a part of their life all my problems would go away.


This comes across as a lack of understanding about attachment, at least based on the reading I've done and my own experience. An attachment figure, especially from a developmental standpoint is a "stronger, wiser, other." Yes, we idealize them, but have you eve met a three year old who didn't think they're parents are perfect? We need to trust in their capabilities because we need to feel safe enough to stay close and learn from them. She's putting the cart before the horse. Just as a teenager has to deal with realizing his parents aren't perfect, it's as we work through the attachment that we can learn to see our Ts more clearly. That the goal, not the means by which you reach it.

quote:
She told me that the real 'elephant in the room' is my marriage. That my attachment and obesession are distractions from the real problem, and that she thinks I've known that all along because I'm "a smart cookie". Yeah, I do definitely have problems in my marriage. And yes, it takes both of us to make those problems. But what do you do when your H thinks that therapy is a joke and doesn't EVER want to participate?


Two things here. First, I think the "real elephant" in the room is her discomfort at being the target of your intense emotions. Yeah, let's move it back to your husband so she doesn't have to be so uncomfortable. I may really be overly reactive on this one, so toos it out if it doesn't fit. Secondly, this so reminded me of something that happened in the beginning of my work with my T. My first T retired and I went without an indivdual therapist for around eight months because the first time I broached the topic of seeing my T for individual work as well, both he and my husband were not comfortable with it. When I recognized my feelings for my T and talked ot him about it, it acted as a catalyst and some difficult material started coming out. So I went to see another T, we'll call him DodgeT, because I kept going to my T but felt so guilty that I wasn't supposed to be doing that. We met for about four or five sessions but this was interspersed with individual appts with my T. DogdeT's take on the problem was exactly what your T said. He thought that I was focusing on my T to avoid my problems with my husband. My T was telling me that I needed to examine these feelings and see why I was having trouble moving closer. I was feeling a lot better at the end of sessions with my T than I was with DodgeT, so eventually DodgeT and I agreed, very amicably that I should go with T and see where it took me. The problem wasn't my focus, the problem was my inability to move closer because it scared me too badly. I had to work through that problem with my T before I could move closer to my husband. I needed the relationship with my T in order to work on the relationship with my husband.

quote:
She said I need to get an ecclesiastical leader or someone with authority or influence to persuade my H that therapy for our marriage is critical. That he needs to decide to become part of the solution rather than continue to be part of the problem. She said if we (she and I) were friends and outside the constrains of therapy, she would have my H and I go out on dates and do 'couple' things with her and her H and other couples so that I could see how I'm not just ME, but part of WE.


MTF, this is all true. Marriages are about we and not just about me. BUT, you cannot control what another person does or their willingness to change. You can only work on yourself. Again, this seems like boundaries 101 to me. I'm hearing that your husband won't admit to his part or get help for it, so you should be trying harder to fix it for both of you. Huh? How does that work again? And gosh, doesn't all going out together and you and your husband learning by osmosis sound like a lot more fun than actually, you know, doing therapy with you? Sorry, my sarcasm slipped the leash there.

quote:
She encouraged me to get into school and get myself a degree and a means to support myself as soon as possible. Then at worst I will be able to support myself, and at best I will be contributing to the family financially.


OK this was not bad advice. Knowing that you have options makes it easier to be honest and take risks in the marriage which gives it a better chance to heal. If you're too scared to lose it, it's hard to make changes to it. (I really thought I needed to say something positive about her. Sorry. I know I'm being rough on her. I'm just really frustrated on your behalf.)

quote:
Now I just feel dead inside. Empty, aching, and wishing I could go back and do it all over again from the start. I keep blaming myself for things not going well and thinking that if I could have just been willing and mentally able to do schema therapy I would be in a totally different place right now. I regret telling her about the post-therapy relationship making me feel unsafe. Now I wish I could still have that, even though part of me knows that is not healthy and that she wouldn't give me that if I didn't finish therapy with her properly anyway. It just hurst like hell right now and I feel like I'm hanging on the edge of a cliff with no lifeline.


MTF, I'm so sorry for the pain your find yourself in, but I really honestly believe that the failure here was not yours, but your Ts. I really think she's missing the boat on what is going on with you. I wish there was a way to fix this for you.

AG
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
MTF... I agree with everything Monte and AG said with regard to your session and your T. I am so very sorry you are feeling so depressed and unable to take action in any area of your life right now. That's okay to take a few days to catch your breath and think about what you want and need for yourself.

I was especially upset when I read your T's statements regarding attachment. She really does not get attachment at all and for all the reasons both Monte and AG pointed out. Focusing on your husband and your marriage will not heal your attachment injury. That came from your childhood development gone awry and needs to be healed in a relationship with an attachment figure. And that attachment figure needs to be seen as a stronger, wiser, consistent other. And I agree with AG that what we need from this AF is way more than a spouse or good friend can offer or handle and this is why your therapist is the best one to act as the AF in your life. Unfortunately, your therapist is pointing you back to your husband because she is afraid of your attachment feelings and does not know what to do with them and she is directing you away from her instead of accepting the feelings and working through them with you.

My oldT was doing a lot of the same behaviors. Whenever attachment came up he would get defensive, or distract me, or point me back to my husband as if I was behaving in a wanton fashion or being seductive to him by discussing my attachment needs. That made me very angry because I was doing nothing wrong, as you are doing nothing wrong. We are expressing our needs which should have been met in childhood but weren't and so now we need to use our Ts to help us finish the development that went off track.

My new T is very accepting and encouraging of my attachment to him. Never defensive and tells me that he accepts ALL my feelings and if that includes love, well then that is fine and even healthy. It is what heals us.

MTF if you DO seek another therapist out, please promise me that you will look for a psychodynamic therapist who is well versed and comfortable with attachment. I asked my new T on the phone before I even met him... what would you do if a patient got attached to you? He said, he sees that as normal and healthy and is to be expected in the relationship. Once I heard that I made the appointment to meet him. CBT T's just don't understand the dynamics invovled with attachment injury and spend their time trying to deflect your feelings from themselves because they are uncomfortable with them. You know what the female T I saw for a bit told me when I asked her about attachment?? She said she tells patients to attach to themselves!! After I heard her say that I RAN and never went back and I had seen her for 10 sessions. There was NO way I was going to go through that again.

I know you hurt. I really do. I know how it feels like you are in a vast, dark, empty place and you feel scared and alone and have no sense of direction or what to do next. I know the pain. But you will find the light eventually. I loved my oldT... I still love him for the person he is ... but not for the T he is. I can honestly say that I would not go back to him for therapy even if I could. My current T is so amazing and wonderful and he has literally saved my life. He is my light and I tell him that. I would like to see my oldT to talk to him and find closure in our relationship and to leave him with good feelings and some peace. That is all I need from him at this point. I guess what I'm trying to tell you (rather clumsily) is that we can feel that there is no solution and we are lost forever in pain and grief from the loss of a T relationship, but we never know who is out there that is better until we go and look for them. My T was the fifth T I interviewed. It was not easy but it was worth it.

The other thing... this forum and all the members here (you included) supported me and held me up when I was collapsing under the weight of the grief and pain and kept me moving forward. I know we would do no less for you. So keep posting and sharing your feelings and allow us to help you however we can.

Sending you many hugs
TN
seablueseablueMember
MTF,
I can feel your grief in your post and I am so sorry you are facing this loss.

I know that it is inevitable for us to blame ourselves, especially those of us with attachment issues, but it makes me so sad to hear that you are beating on yourself and all of your choices. You are attached to her. It's what happens in therapy. Of course you wanted her to be the one to help you through everything. Of course you believed her that she was capable of helping you and like somone else said, you didn't even know what you needed when you started. Now you know a little more and she has helped you get there, though not in the way you had hoped I am sure. It is evident from your posts that she does deeply care for you and genuinely wanted to help you.

I have to agree, for what it's worth, that focusing on your marriage will not resolve your attachment issues. That sounds like an opportunity for distraction to me. From what I know, attachment issues come from our caregivers (if we can call them that) as children, not from deficient relationships as adults. I know you already know this.

MTF, your time with her has not been lost even if you move on from here. It was special and most importantly it got you to this point, which is much further that when you started I am sure (even if you might not be able to see that in your pain Frowner )

I know it hurts.....I know it hurts.....I'm so sorry. Frowner I will soon be losing my T, as well. She is moving in a few months 2 time-zones away from me. Frowner

The grief is deep, MTF. I hope you will let people here help you through. Thinking of you and hoping you get some peace.
seablue
mtfmtfMember
Ugh. The saga continues. Thanks ladies for the encouragement and input in your responses to me. It is comforting to know that I am not alone in this attachment crap. It's SO painful. Frowner

I decided yesterday to take the OCD workbook back to my T. I called her from the elevator of the hospital as I was on my way up to the outpatient psychology clinic. There were about 15 minutes left of her lunch hour, so I figured that would be the best time to see her. She answered her phone and I said "Hi T, it's MTF." She perked up and said, "Hi! How are you doing?" I said I was okay (which was a lie) and told her I was there and asked if we could swap books. She said, "Yeah, give me a minute to find yours and I'll be right out." So I waited in the waiting area for her and she came right out. She traded books and she asked me if the OCD workbook had been helpful. I told her "no". She moved a little closer toward me so that our conversation felt a little more 'private' and then she asked what I wanted to do now--see the PhD. there that does OCD or what? I told her I didn't want to see him. She asked me if I wanted to come back to her office for a few minutes and talk. I told her I didn't want to interrupt her lunch and she said she was done and then swiped her badge to get back into the office area. It was a long walk down the hall and she walked in front of me until we got to the door of her office. Her appointment timer/pager started going off telling her that her next patient was there (15 minutes early). She turned it off and signaled me to sit down because I was still standing. We sat down facing each other and she asked me what she could do for me? I told her I didn't know. I don't remember how the conversation went exactly. She mentioned that I need to be in charge of my own boundaries--that I know what's OK for me. I wish I remembered the context she said that in. I told her I was frustrated because she sees my marriage as the problem. I told her that my H can't be my attachment figure, that it's not about him so much as what happened in childhood. She agreed that some of it comes from childhood. She said that the attachment to my husband was really important though, and I agreed. She said something like, "It's the pattern, not the person that's wrong." What exactly she meant by that I'm not sure--whether the person she's referring to is me or the person I get attached to. She knows I've been doing this attachment crap for most of my life.

She asked me what I would do now? Did I have some other therapist in mind? I told her I did and gave her the name of the T. She said she wished me well, and I wished her well too. She said she wanted to hear from me about how I was doing in my other therapy, about my progress there. She said she had enjoyed knowing me and I told her that I felt the same about her. I told her that this was really hard for me. I don't remember exactly what she said after that but it sort of came out that she felt she hadn't done me any good and had failed me big time. I told her that despite things going awry that there were many positive and good things that I have learned from her and internalized, and that I wasn't just saying that because of the situation or the moment. I told her that even though she didn't like me idealizing her, that that was a way for me to grow because I look at her positive qualities and strengths and it gives me something to aspire to. She seemed pleased by that and thanked me for it and said she really appreciated it.

I stuck a 4 page typed letter in the workbook I returned to her. During the conversation she said something about me needing to feel comfortable enough with the therapist and that if I didn't then that makes it hard. I told her that I just felt she didn't really accept me and my issues (which she said was not the case) and that she had said some things that had caused some real uncertainty. I didn't elaborate because of the letter, and then pointed out to her that it was in the workbook. She opened the book up and started reading the letter for a few seconds. Then she went on to something else. Anyway, I wished I hadn't left that with her because I was seeing that she was already in some sort of pain from all of this happening and I worried that it would make things worse for her. But at the same time I felt like she needed to know why I was leaving--all the boundary issues, how her telling me she was trying to show me her humanness had harmed me because it felt like blurry boundaries on her part, how some of what she has told me has seemed too personal and that I wondered where I stood with her and if she had more of an emotional investment in our relationship than was healthy, and that I had so much pain and confusion because of what I thought I wanted with her vs. what I needed from her. It contained all the beans I couldn't spill in my session Friday and I just figured that even though I was done with her she would know what I couldn't say to her face because of my fears. At the end of the letter I told her that I love her and always will. I thanked her for the best of herself that she's given me and told her I will carry her in my heart always. I figured that was the end of my contact with her, so I wanted to say what I could never say to her face. Now I'm so embarrassed...

Anyway, she stood up and hugged me, this time a bit more forcefully than she had in my session with her Friday. I don't think she said anything during our embrace. I opened the door of her office and we walked down the hallway together. She asked if my boys were out of school (it was President's Day) and I said yes. She said, "Oh boy." like she knew that was probably an additional strain on me given the circumstances. When we got to the exit door she put her arm around me and I put mine around her for one last squeeze and I looked down at her and saw that she had tears in her eyes. Frowner She said, "Keep in touch." and I told her I would. It felt awful leaving her there. I wanted to just hug her again and take care of her hurt feelings and sadness that things had ended like they had.

After I left I felt dead inside. I fell down the stairs in the parking garage and hurt myself in an attempt to save myself. That was bad. I went to the mall and hoped to find a card to write in and leave with the secretary for my T telling her the positive stuff and that I was sorry about the letter. I ended up leaving emptyhanded. All kinds of stuff kept going through my mind. I wanted to fix it all and take the letter back. Around 6:25 p.m. I figured she had finished with clients for the day so I called her office phone and she answered. I told her it was me and she was again friendly with me. I asked her if she had read the letter yet (as I was going to ask her to do me a favor and throw it away or shred it) and she said she had. Eeker I don't know when she had time to read it. It would take easily 15 minutes to read and when I left her she had only 5 minutes left of her lunch hour. I guess she really had been concerned with what it said. When I heard her say "Yes" that she had read it I whispered, "Dang." It was audible enough that she heard it and she told me it was alright, that what I expressed were my feelings and that they had a right to be expressed. I said I was sorry and she told me it was OK, but that she wanted to talk about it all "at some point". She said she had people there in a session right then and asked me not to worry about the letter, could I do that (then she chuckled a little, as she knows how much this stuff affects me)? I told her I would do my best. She said we'll talk about it. She then told me to have a good night and to take care, then good bye.

I felt a lot better after the phone conversation. She didn't seem upset or angry with me for what I had put in the letter. I agree with her that we need to talk about it. I wish I had had the courage to open it all up with her last Friday. She's off today so I don't know when we'll talk. Frowner This is all so hard for me. I don't know what to do now. I don't know if I should stay with her and try to work it out, if I don't have any choice but to leave now after what's happened between us, or if I really just need to walk away and find another T. There are so many aspects of our relationship that I feel need to be looked at together. I've been holding SO MUCH back and I need answers from her. Until I get them I won't know what to do, I guess. I wish I had been brave enough to open up all of the stuff in the letter as it occurred in the therapy so that things didn't have the chance to turn into the ugly mess they have become. Now I have to wait until I hear from her about when we can meet to talk about this stuff. I don't know if she discharged me yesterday (don't know that she had the time to do it yet), or if she wants to talk about the contents of the letter first and see where things go from there. I wish she hadn't been in a session last night.

Anyway, thanks for your support everyone. I don't know how long this drama will continue, but I appreciate you all being there for me. Smiler

MTF
yakusokuyakusokuMember
(((((((((((MTF))))))))))) Thinking about you. I'm glad T received the feelings in your letter well. Maybe it was necessary to "know" it was over for you to be safe to express those things and you can move forward in a new way now that they are in the open. Or maybe it will give you a place of openness to start with a new T. I hope that no matter what happens with seeing this T or another, you can move forward resolved about what you expressed. You held your feelings within yourself, accepted them, shared them and it seems they were received, not rejected. That's really positive! I know it's hard to feel that way when it hurts so much. Frowner
ButterflyButterflyMember
Wow MTF, I'm sorry that you didn't get your needs met by this T, I really admire the way you have been able to recognise this and your bravery to end in such a graceful way. It really was heartfelt. I'm sorry you have to wait to talk to her about the letter, that must be really hard. (((((((((((MTF))))))))))) Hope you hear from her soon.

Butterfly
mtfmtfMember
Yakusoko--It's interesting that you say maybe it was necessary for me to "know" it was over in order to be able to express what needed to be expressed. Thanks for saying that the fact that my feelings weren't rejected is really positive. I guess you're right. I'm tempted to leave my T a message that I don't want to be discharged until we have worked through all of this and I am truly sure that I want to end with her.

Butterfly--Thanks for your message. I hope I hear from her soon, too. I know I can't wait around for very long to get things resolved. It consumes my life.

MTF
mad hattermad hatterMember
{{{MTF}}}. Wow, that was an emotional punch for me just reading it. I can only imagine all the stuff you are trying to sort out, and maybe not feel, because it is so much. FWIW, I think you did the right thing giving her the letter and saying the things that needed to be said. I know you are worried about the effect it has on T, but I think you might feel even worse if you had ended things without giving her the letter. I don't know what advice to offer about meeting with her again to discuss the letter. If I were in your shoes, it would be tempting. You are attached. You want to take care of her. You want to smooth things out. But there is potential to cloud the waters more. I like Monte's suggestion of getting the new T's perspective on it.
scaredtoriskmyselfscaredtoriskmyselfCo-moderator
MTF,

Wow, what a moving post you wrote. I too am in awe of your courage and that you were able to go in and say what you did and give her the letter. I'm sorry that the ending is so painful, but it sounds like she received it all pretty well. I think that a session or two in processing the ending might not be a bad thing and I agree with Monte about maybe running it past the new T. Please keep us posted and know that we care. (((hugs)))
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
MTF that was a tense and emotional recounting of what happened with your T. I don't know how you got through it all without breaking down. I was a total sobbing wreck for the last 6 weeks of my downward spiraling therapy with oldT.

I am somewhat confused though... I thought you had done all of this to end things with her and now you say you want to go back and perhaps work things out? I understand if you want a session or two to transition away from her and to bring closure to the relationship and to talk about how and why you got to this ending place, but do you really want to go back? I totally get the attachment you feel and the sadness and grief at ending with her but I'm not sure she is capable of changing enough to help you or provide what you need from her. But you are the only one who can really answer that question and know what is best. I don't know if I would have been able to do this with my oldT.... and in fact I didn't. I kept trying to save the relationship, to figure out what was wrong and to fix it and make it good again. I didn't have the strength to just up and walk away telling him what I felt and thought... so I am the last one who should be giving any advice.

Whatever you decide, I'll be here to support you. I know how hard this is. I also like the idea of consulting with another T... if not the one you just saw then someone else. It would be good to get an outside perspective on the relationship and what was wrong and/or right about it.

Thinking of you and sending hugs and warm thoughts. You were very brave today.

Best,
TN
ladygreyladygreyMember
MTF,

I was so touched by your story of what happened with T yesterday, especially when she walked you out of the office and had tears in her eyes. Such powerful emotions!

I am wondering if this is really what you want to be doing though? I was surprised when I read that you called her later that night to ask if she had read the email. Are you wanting to keep in touch with her?
mtfmtfMember
Thanks everyone for telling me I'm brave/courageous. I don't know if that is really what I am. I think I'm scared of leaving and that I just want to work things out with her and have everything fixed. I don't know if I could really go back and do therapy with my T. After some of the things I said in the letter (that I have realized that her level of experience/expertise doesn't match my needs, that I feel she has failed me by not really working with the attachment and similar stuff) I don't know that it would work anyway. I have probably hurt her and at the least made her feel a bit defensive. That is why I want so badly to just go in and find out what she wants to talk about and get it over with. Then I can better see/know where things are headed.

Monte--I don't agree that there wasn't any wrong-doing on my part. I am the one that held all of this stuff in and only expressed my concerns here on the forum instead of in my therapy. How could my T know what I was struggling with when I didn't tell her? She asked me to be 100% honest and open with her and I promised her I would. I have failed myself by not keeping my promise. She asked me to call her when something bothered me from a session so that she could "rewind the tape" and make things right. I told her I would do that, too. But obviously I have not or there wouldn't be such a big bunch of crap all piled up between us. I feel like it's gone so far in the wrong direction that I just kick myself for not having the courage to say what I needed to say when it needed to be said.

No I have not spoken to the new T yet. I told her I would let her know how it went but haven't called her yet. I think I may be afraid of hearing what she has to say, but I agree that getting her take on things, now that I have had some interactions with my T, would likely be helpful. I don't know. I am struggling so much right now to know what I really want and if that is in line with what I NEED. Frowner This is so hard.


MH--I agree that I did need to give her the letter and that leaving without her knowing what I feel went wrong would have haunted me forever. But I need to get some closure on what was in the letter. I need to hear my T's responses to my concerns and issues that were unfortunately never raised until now. I agree about this possibly making things harder for me, but I just need to have that closure at the very least.


STRM--I don't know that I'll get more than one session with my T to work this out. I don't even know if she's discharged me and cancelled all my future sessions that I had scheduled. If I don't get in soon I don't know that I will go. My next session isn't until March 11th. That is too far away. Thanks for your support.


TN--the sobbing will come when I go see her and we discuss the stuff in the letter. I am sure the tears will come in torrents. I have been holding stuff in pretty well, but it's all coming to a head.

I agree that she is probably not capable of giving me what I need. I am wanting to do what you were trying to do with your oldT; fix everything and make it work because it was so important to you--you had invested a lot emotionally. But I feel like I need to work through "our" issues together with her, because she is the one with whom they have been co-created. I really need closure.


LG--I called her because part of me wants to 'keep in touch' (as she asked me to and I said I would) and I wanted to stop her from reading the letter which I felt would damage the potential for future contact with her. We have had an unusual connection that has been very powerful for me (and it seems for her too) and I felt like the letter was too much and that it would cause her pain and that it would make it uncomfortable for both of us if I did contact her in the future. That's why I wanted her to throw it away instead of read it. Too late. I was really pretty sure that she hadn't had time to read it and that I could somehow 'save' the relationship. I realize that I'm pretty screwed up to keep wanting to have connection with this T. I think she has fallen into my emotional world and can't keep herself in the professional position she needs to maintain for therapy to be effective. And since we repeat old patterns in our relationships, and she is enacting stuff with me it seems, I am just compelled to keep it going even though a part of me knows it's unhealthy.


BB--good to 'see' you again! Thanks for your supportive words. Smiler


MTF
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
MTF I hope you are okay. I agree that it is really important for you to go in and work this through to the conclusion that you feel the best with. I hope that you can get in to see her very soon. If you do go, it will be a real help and blessing to have a few sessions to wind things down and to find some closure. Not having that closure and a T who is willing to talk about the rupture is haunting and certainly delays healing. I see no reason why you cannot drop her the occassional email or phone call to tell her how you are doing.

You are not at fault for not being totally an open book with her. She blurred boundaries that made it really difficult for you to do just that. You kept worrying about her feelings that she introduced into the therapy and clouded the work. She is the professional in this and has the responsibility not you. So please do not blame yourself for not saying more about all this earlier. This is really hard stuff you are dealing with.

You have been so brave. Hang in there and let us help you through this time, whatever you decide.

Hugs
TN
mtfmtfMember
Here's the latest on my situation. Be forewarned that this is probably my longest post ever: Big Grin

My T called me yesterday morning to talk about the letter. She said she had a retreat for work the day before and that's why she hadn't called sooner. She said she's been trying to wrap her head around my letter since I had left it with her, and that she had read it several times. She said she was stunned by a lot of the things in the letter. She was glad that I had put it all down on paper. She says she sees things differently than I do and that she wouldn't change the therapy because she sees more going on with me than just attachment stuff. She sees abandonment issues, emotional deprivation, mistrust, and other things. She said maybe if I could find a T that does just attachment stuff that it might be helpful, but she sees so much more that I need help with, too.

She said she feels now like she can't trust me because I've been holding back and hiding SO MUCH--that she has to be able to trust me too. She said I don't give her the benefit of the doubt like she gives me--I don't reciprocate trust. She feels like I take things so personally (which I do) and that I make it all about me when things don't work like I think they should; I don't believe her when she tells me things (like that she's okay with me and my attachment issues) and that I think she is lying to me.

She said that last Friday was the day from hell and that she hasn't had a day that bad in her whole time there at the hospital (over 10 years). She said she started her work day at 7:15 and was there until 10:30 that night. She said she had those two court cases to get finished up that day and that during the session before mine, the one before her lunch hour, the lady had disclosed information that my T had to report when there was only 20 minutes of the session remaining. She said her client was very upset and that things were very tearful and hard for my T too. Then she had to work through her lunch hour on the court cases and the secretaries had been working with her trying to get stuff faxed and sent off, etc. She said that is why she came out 15 minutes late, not because she was upset at me. She was stunned that I would think her to be the kind of person that would do that to someone. She again said I personalize everything and make it about me even when it has nothing to do with me. She said I open up sometimes in therapy but then I leave and the bomb drops afterwards and there's just a bunch of "fall out" that needs to be taken care of--but I don't call her so that we can discuss what's bothering me. I just let it eat at me and make me crazy. She's right about that. Frowner I had promised her I would call her when she said or did something that affected me negatively so that she could "rewind the tape" and make it right with me. I haven't been doing that but rather just stuffing things to protect the relationship and keep it 'safe'. Wow, has that backfired BIG TIME!!

She still believes that the schema therapy can help me if I will engage with her instead of disconnect. Schema therapy goes back to childhood stuff in order to help identify the origins of the faulty thinking and patterns I use to relate to people. She knows I don't like it and don't want to go there, but thinks I'm just focusing on the attachment stuff in order to avoid the real issues. Big possibility.

She said she can't be everything that I want her to be. Her role is to help me get to the deeper stuff rather than staying with the superficial like I do, so that change can come. She said that friendships are vital so that I can get emotional needs met because my H isn't meeting those needs. She said if my H won't engage in the process that it will make things harder, but not impossible. She's had lots of women that have worked through their stuff without their husbands, and I can too. It will just be a bit more difficult. She said she can't meet all my needs. I think I have been expecting her to. Frowner

She said I have to stop running. If I see another T I need to journal and then bring the journal and read it at the start of the session and put it out there. I need to dig deep and come to see the patterns and how they ruin things. She said that therapy is a lot more about the here-and-now--the relationship--not just the past. It's about what's going on in the therapy room and that HAS to come out.

She said she truly cares about me and wants to see me get the help I need. She was willing to send my chart with even her personal notes (which she said she doesn't normally do) if that would be helpful. She asked when my first appointment with the new T was and I told her I didn't have one yet. She thought that I did. I told her I wasn't sure what I was doing. I asked her if she had had enough of me yet and she said "No", and that she was saying that in all honesty. She again said she really cares about me and wants me to be true to myself and my needs and that she's there to support me with whatever I choose. She told me to think about it and pray about it and then let her know what I want to do.

She said that if I stay with her and she knows that I am not giving what she expects that she will call me on it. She won't put up with me being static and not engaging--she'll call me on it because she cannot walk on eggshells with me anymore. She said she hasn't wanted to offend me (because I seem to get offended easily) or hurt me and then have me running away so she has been careful in trying to keep the relationship from crumbling, but she won't let me get away with it anymore if I come back. If I do this again she might have to end therapy. She said she doesn't chase clients away because of behavior stuff, but if they start cancelling appointments and not really doing therapy that she tells them that maybe they need to see another T or take a break for awhile until they are ready to give it their best.

I think the letter was a good thing in some ways because she got to see what I've been dealing with, thinking, feeling, hiding, etc. It's really unfortunate that I had to feel like ending therapy with her before I could really put my issues out there to her. I'm sure I have hurt her with some of the things that were in the letter, but I know that she is a strong lady and can get over it and work with me, despite the rupture. She accepts her part in things not going well but she said she doesn't think it's all her--that it's both of us--and I agree. If I really want to get better and heal I have to have both feet firmly planted in the therapy and in the relationship. I have to be wlling to expose myself and lay it all out there if I want to see any results. She can't read my mind and know what's going on with me. It has to be me putting stuff out there so that she can look at it with me and work through it.

She was hurt, I think, by the lack of trust I have in her. She said that at my session that followed the cancellation mix-up she had asked me how WE were doing and that I said fine. I totally don't remember that AT ALL. She said nothing came out during the session, even though she knew I was angry, and that's why she asked me again at the end about my mood and the attachment. I told her it was not connected, that I had PMS. Frowner Then I later called and left her a message saying that I wasn't fully honest and that I was sorry I hadn't been open with her but that I felt uncomfortable about talking about it. She is frustrated because she knows now that I am not being honest with her and don't trust her. She knew from the phone conversation the day before that session that I was angry but I wouldn't admit it to her in session. She needs me to be real and engage with her in the moment. She can't read my mind and magically know what's going on inside me. She's right. I need to 'ante up' and really put myself out there. Eeker

I have been putting too much mental/emotional energy into my relationship with my T. I think it's been a big distraction for me from doing the work that I really need to do; be honest and open, truthful, not hiding stuff but rather putting it on the line so I can see patterns and things I do that sabotage relationships and keep me from making any progress or having any insight about myself and what I'm doing that isn't working.

Things totally fell apart the day I told my T I was attached to her. I became so worried about her and her reaction to me that I became totally focused/obsessed on how to redeem the relationship that I thought was lost because of my admission. From that point on I have been hiding everything I can from her. I did try to express my fears and concerns to her several times, but because of fear I wasn't fully open or as direct as I should have been. I was too scared to say what I needed to say because I feared rejection and abandonment and that my T would think I was a freak. It again came out with her during the phone call that I don't trust or believe her. She said that when I had told her about the boundary crossing/internet searching and that she had said that it was okay and that if it's out there I would find it and that she didn't see me as a stalker or anyone scary, that I didn't give her the benefit of the doubt or my trust that she was being truthful with me and that she really was OK with my stuff. I just can't let it go and believe her at her word.

I know some (or maybe all) of you will think I'm nuts, but I feel like I need to stick it out with my T--at least for a while--and see where I can go with her help if I 'ante up' and put my stuff out there without fear (well, as best as I can do with the fear that is inevitable). I need to stay instead of running away and avoiding the hard stuff in an important relationship. I've done that too many times and it always causes so many regrets and so much pain. I need to stay this time and learn how to risk myself so I can grow.

I called my T this morning and told her that I want to stick it out with her. She basically asked me if I was really willing to work at it because it's tough and I told her that's why I am in therapy--to work on my stuff. She said "OK" but that it's not for chickens.Roll Eyes She asked me if I was sure about it and sure I still wanted to work with her. I said "yes" and she said that she was 'game' and still willing to work with me. She told me that she wants me to journal btween now and my next session in two weeks and get all my feelings out of my head--raw and uncensored, either typed or handwritten--and then she said, "I can take it." Eeker Yikes!! I'm scared now because I've always felt like my feelings were not okay with her and now she wants me to put them all out there. Scary stuff!! She said she looks forward to our next appointment.

Then the other T called me back. I told her that I felt like I needed to stay with my T and try to work through this with her instead of running away. I told her that I have come to realize that a lot of the problems with my T are from me hiding stuff and the lack of trust that has created. She said that she thinks it's great that I am honoring what I feel I should do and that hopefully my letter and the possibility of me leaving therapy had been a wake-up call to my T and that she would see that I've been needing to take care of her needs. She said if she and I were in a relationship that she would call me out on the caretaking stuff because it's not healthy. She said that now that I know what's going on in my relationship with my T that I can be more aware of things and know whether things change or not, and that if they don't change, at least I'll be able to walk away rather than bolt. I'll KNOW that things won't work with her and there won't be the doubt in my mind that I am having now. She said I will know. She wished me the best and I think I will definitely go see her if/when things don't go well with my T.

The end. For now anyway. Big Grin

MTF
yakusokuyakusokuMember
MTF - Thanks for such a great update. No judgment from me on your choice. I hope your T will be more conscientious in the future, though. Even if you weren't fully honest, she insists she knew that was the case, so I don't think you need to shoulder all the responsibility for the communication breakdown. Praying this will be a new start for you!

By the way, journaling (something I decided to do on my own) has really helped me. I email my T everything I write, so he knows where I'm at even if I am paralyzed when I try to say it. One thing I've found that helps (and you might want to ask her about it) is to send the journals via email right after you write them. That way you can't edit, filter or take back things for the sake of protecting your T or out of fear of damaging the relationship, crossing a boundary, etc. I found when I printed things on the day of our appointment, they got edited...A LOT!
Attachment GirlAttachment GirlAdmin
MTF
No judgement!! You understand the situation AND your T much better than we can. I think that your letter really helped clear up a lot and I loved what the other T said. You've got your eyes open. I think it's really good that you are squarely facing your part in what has happened between you and your T. I agree with her that it has to happen in the room and as terrifying as it is, you did need to be open with your feelings. I think the fact that she made it clear she's going to push for that is a good thing. So you're going back expecting changes in yourself and looking to make sure your T holds the boundaries she needs to, those are both good healthy things. Let us know how it goes.

AG
blackbirdblackbirdMember
quote:
Email is not a solution to verbal communication difficulties, but it is better than no meaningful communication.


I just had to quote this, Monte because it says everything that needed to be said about email in such a wonderful, succinct way...

MTF, I will admit to you that I am concerned for you on reading this- I was going to go and quote all the places where your T talked about her feelings, what *you* did wrong, and what she needed from you- but you already know that stuff, or you wouldn't have put it. That is not to say that I do not believe that the therapy relationship is supposed to be *teamwork* as my T constantly reminds me. Your T- she does need you to help her to guide you- no doubt there.

However- I also know that *you* have a deep sense of your own needs and will find the way. Absolutely no judgement here. Your T is your T... I hope and pray that you will find the solution together. My T had loosey kind of boundary something-or-other defensiveness thingy-ma-jiggy- wanting my approval, too concerned with what I thought about *him* whatevery- maybe-thingy- I *suspect* with very little to go on- when we were on for a few months, and after communicating clearly (mostly by email) for over a year and half and he admitting to me that he had to go for supervision about my case, (which meant *so* much to me- that he would not only do that, but humbly admit to *me* that he did that) he was able to fix, I believe most of the problems. After that point things improved greatly. Now it feels like he is there, cares, but takes nothing personally...thank God for that, now, I get to feel the *pain* of that, get rid of my fantasy that I mean something to him in his everyday personal life- and explore it all without worrying about him- if that makes sense. I hope your T will learn to manage her own (possibly) countertransference as well, for the good of her clients, but it is not an entirely unworkable situation, most likely. I just feel that you should not have to be *so strong* in therapy. You should be allowed to be weak, weak as hell, needy, dishonest, pathetic- whatever! without that weakness making you unsafe or judged, worrying about termination, what she thinks, needs from you-- and having to worry so much about the feelings and burdens of your T. you should know absolutely nothing about the burdens of your T- IMHO.

However! All of that being said- I totally respect your decision as you would know best what you need and what your T can offer. As I say this I recognize fully that I do *not* have all the information, could be *dead wrong*- and that I am biased because of what I believe about therapy based *only on my own very limited experiences* and feelings, and not because I strongly follow or understand deeply any particular method, except what I deeply sense will work for me. What works for me may very well not be what you need. Your T has said a lot of really good things, too, that make a lot of sense, and made some excellent points. Clearly, she does not want to lose you as a client. That probably feels good to know- but it also concerns me a bit.

Oh, gosh- I am being too honest with what I think? I wish you every blessing from this relationship!

One thing- I know I have *no right* to suggest it- but I personally hope that you will continue to come here for support, even if your T and H say not to. Balance and different perspectives, while very painful for those of us who have such confusion issues and emotional deprivation disorder as well to endure- can be extremely invaluable. They make us think, decide where we belong...what "camp" we are in so to speak. You are an adult- you get to decide whether you will come to psyche cafe and have coffee with us- or not. You have to find yourself, too. Not coming here is equally valid- don't get me wrong- as long as it is your decision, and not please someone else. I strongly support you- no matter what you decide.

Wishing you peace and blessings- please keep us posted...your story means a lot to us here at PsycheCafe.

hugs,

BB
mtfmtfMember
So I've been doing a lot of thinking and reading up about codependency and love addiction and I see myself there completely. I don't know that my attachment to my T is really attachment so much as it's an addiction to her. I have literally become so obsessed and preoccupied with her in my mind that I don't actually live life, I have lost my identity, am so focused on her and the relationship that I don't do the things I need to be doing in life, and without her I feel like I will not make it. I think the reason I decided to stay with her instead of finding another T is because I really feel like I couldn't live without her and the idea of leaving her kicked up a lot of fear and feelings of abandonment and the fear of being alone. Frowner

The weird thing is, my T helps run a support meeting for people that suffer from addictions (alcohol, drugs, etc.). I would think that she has known that my obsession with her is an addiction and that she would have been doing more to help me break my addiction to her. I guess in hindsight she kind of has been offering suggestions to help me find myself and see myself as too caught up in my obsession with her. She had me journal about my obsessive impulses instead of acting on them. She has told me to pursue my interest in photography, reach out and make friends with people in my new neighborhood, get into school at the university, and other things. She tries to make herself appear 'real' so that I don't see her as someone who can make everything better in my life, that she's not perfect and God-like in any way. But if she knows I'm codependent and have put too much of a focus on her, I wonder why she hasn't called me on things. Why she offered lunch dates, gave me a watchband (in reciprocation of the one I gave her), has told me she put my name on a prayer list in one of our places of worship and that she hadn't done that for a patient before, why she asked me what she could do to help me feel like she's more a part of my circle of friends (because I don't have many friends), and told me she'd invite me into her home if I came by and knocked on her door. I know the last one she was trying to normalize my attachment and help me see that she doesn't view me as a threat/stalker--that she's okay with me knowing what I know about her (because what choice does she have but to accept what I've found out about her online?).

She wants me to journal all of my feelings--raw and uncensored--and I wonder what she's going to do with them. I journaled a lot of stuff back in October and then she didn't have me read any of it to her. Just "pick something to read" and I really dodged it pretty good. All of that stuff was SO BIG in her seeing my obessession/addiction. That's why I didn't want her to know any of it. Now I realize that I have been keeping back the really important stuff that she's needed to know for a long time. I don't know what to write about my feelings. That I am angry? That it's her fault (which it's not) that I have been so afraid to share my feelings along the way? I am just barely coming to grips with what is really wrong with me. Part of me thinks she has known this all along, but things have really stagnated the past 7 months. She hasn't pushed me at all (she says it's because she hasn't wanted to offend me and scare me off). I haven't even known what MY responsibility was in my own therapy; that I am supposed to bring stuff to talk bout--the difficult stuff that I am going through within the relationship with her. I have personalized our relationship because of some of the things in the paragraph above. I have wondered where I fit with her, what does she think of me, am I 'special' to her, does she 'love' me. And that makes it so hard to bring your stuff to the table. Of course part of me wants all of those things, but another part of me knows that's not what therapy is about. I haven't been able to see reality because some of her statements and actions have made me wonder who I am in her eyes, and I have held back so much because I didn't want to ruin the relationship. I didn't want to lose her offer of post-therapy lunches and the opportunity of keeping her in my life after therapy. Now I feel like a complete idiot for thinking I am anything to her but a patient. I regret not talking to her about these issues as they came up. I regret having been sucked into another addictive relationship--with my therapist no less!! I am in a lot of hellish pain because of all of this. And I have no idea how to put this down in writing and go in there and talk about it all with my T on the 11th. Frowner

I feel too stuck in all of this to be able to even make a move, to move away from the addiction I am dealing with. Can my T help me? Does she have what it takes, or is she also emotionally involved with me to the extent that she won't be much help? I know I have to go in there and give it a go, but I'm so tired of being so immersed in all of this. I'm either going to sit there and feel like a total dumb-ass and try to hide again, or I'll just sit there like a helpless baby and cry myself silly. Probably the first one. I think I really fear intimacy and try to avoid it at all costs by shutting down and keeping the scary stuff locked up inside. I wonder if I'll ever be able to change and really step up and do something proactive to help myself get better. I wonder sometimes when the pain will get bad enough that I feel I have no choice other than change because the other option will be death. This is really a bad place to be.

I just want to encourage everyone with strong attachment to your T to really open up and talk about it--not to hide ANYTHING from your T, no matter how scary it feels. Because I haven't done that I now have an insurmountable mess to try and deal with and I am so deeply emotionally involved with my T (in my mind) that I have basically lost my life in that relationship with her; a relationship that isn't even 'real'. I've learned that addictions to people can be just as life-destroying as addictions to drugs and alcohol. We need real help to overcome our people addictions, and we owe it to ourselves to get that help.


MTF
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