Monte:
Thank you for telling me about your loss, it really does sound very much like the same kinds of feelings, especially when you say it felt like "death". I always knew it wasn't "buried properly" for me either. For many years, like you said, I didn't think of him a lot at all. But the pain was always there, woven into so many things, it's like I just got used to it. And it hasn't helped that my mom has kept in touch with him and his family, even had pictures up of them in her house for many years (long and weird story). But then in fall of 2007 I ran into him unexpectedly at a neighbor's housewarming party...turns out they are close friends of theirs, didn't know THAT...and the feelings were dug up again and just won't go fit back into where they were. And in another year we will be running into each other more because two of our kids are very close in age and they will be going to the same middle and high schools. I want to be ready for that. AG said something in a thread once, about why do we dig these ghosts back up, we do it so we can eventually bury them properly, so they will now "rest in peace". That's what I'm trying to do now.

I asked my ex-T once if he'd ever watched the "alternate endings" they sometimes have as an extra feature on DVD movies - I've always thought it was kind of silly to have those on there, because whenever I watch the alternate ending, I think, yep, I can see why they didn't go with that, the real ending was the right one. Ever since the breakup (let's see...a quarter of a century ago) my life has felt like the alternate ending on one of those DVDs. Like this is not the way it was supposed to be. Nothing I do can be right because I'm on the wrong trajectory and there's no going back. It's really wearying to feel like that all the time. Like anything good that happens...and lots of good HAS happened...even when it's really, really good, still his not being there with me makes it feel hollow, flat, wasted, like another moment that was supposed to be shared with him.

Did you ever see Forrest Gump? Near the end, Forrest is taking care of Jenny when she's sick, and he tells her about all the things he's seen over the years. Jenny says, I wish I could have been there with you. And Forrest says, You were. That is my favorite line of the movie...that's how I feel about this guy...he's always there with me...and there's always this hollow longing and pain that he's not REALLY there because it feels like he SHOULD have been there.

Over the years I've tried to draw comfort from the idea of God's sovereignty, that there's a reason for all of this, that He is working out everything for His purposes and to trust Him. For a while that really seemed to be working, better than anything else, anyway...but in the past few years I've really drifted away from that. I need to get back to it somehow.

I had to laugh at this:

quote:

I still check the new phone book for his name, every year...over 20 years later

You too? Thought I was the only one who did that. In fact I just did it again last week because we got new phone books at work.

Thanks Monte

Dragonfly:
I'm sorry you are not in a good place right now {{{{{DF}}}}} Thanks for your comfort and your hugs...they help very much...and I hope you feel better soon, and can talk about it here, if it helps.

SG

This thread really struck a chord with me (pardon the pun SG.) The first (and only) true love of my life, we had to part ways. (and I didn't even believe in true love until I met him.) He wanted children, I didn't. He got married, so did I. For years we kept in contact with each other, the connection seemingly growing stronger and always telling each other how much we loved each other, missed each other. We saw each other occasionally. I know this sounds awful but the plan was for us to finally get back together someday after his kids were grown. His wife had been cheating on him since early in the marriage, and there wasn't much "love" left between them.

My marriage feels more like a friendship than anything. So eventually his wife fell in love with the person she was cheating with, and decided to leave my "one." And she was taking the kids with her. He was devastated, as you can imagine. There wasn't a lot we could do at that time, I'm still married and he's too honorable to be a homewrecker, etc...and my husaband is a (mostly) good man who doesn't deserve to be left.

The last thing he (my one) ever said to me was "without my kids here, my house feels like a tomb." I didn't take him seriously. Honestly I was so frustrated with the waiting I didn't think we'd ever get back together. Anyway, he killed himself a few days after that. I often wonder what would be worse, if he had stopped loving me or what I'm going through now. I just feel sick and empty all the time over it, like the best parts of me went with him, I barely have the will to live most of the time.

I guess my point is, I can only imagine the pain you all are going through knowing that your love is with someone else and you can't even be in contact with them. I know it might be disastrous for any of you to re-connect with these people, but you may want to consider it, even just once. What I wouldn't give to hear his laugh again, or even to just have a glance at him from afar. Sorry I think I've turned this post into me just whining, but I've been wanting to get this out since I joined this forum.

I feel for you all, and I hope you can find a way to resolve these feelings and I hope I can too.

Hugs all around,
WLOH

SG, I hear so much of pain and loss in your post, and I do not think you sound in the least juvenile.These things and reactions that happen in us to people we loved and who loved us are there for a reason. Your feelings are real and they run deep. There is obviously something deep and painful that has gone unresolved for all of these years. I am glad you have a safe place to lok at it and try to grieve it properly and safely in therapy now...because what happened to you in therapy last time, may have just ended up interfering with and frustrating that process...and this deep grief and longing you feel for your ex BF isn't going anywhere anytime soon, no- it seems like it is hanging out in you always, just waiting for a chance to be heard, to be listened to, and to be understood and not minimized. And it (and you) deserve that, so much, and need a place where you can be allowed to do that without being made to feel juvenile...it is unfair that you have had to come to think of this as "juvenile." I don't know where those kind of thoughts are coming from, but this is serious stuff- not silly, not juvenile. Whenever we have a strong reaction of pain and grief to loss it is so important to listen to, and to have others who will listen to it with you and help you grieve and not be so alone with it. It doesn't sound like you have ever really had that, and I pray you will find it. It is so good to see you post about this. I hope you will continue to post about it here, and let us comfort you somewhat until you can find the place and the person (maybe your T) who will really help you through it. And I totally get what you are saying about being glad about being able to access that grief again. It is maybe, because you have sensed all along that it is still and always lurking under there and needing to come out. And it is sometimes a relief, to feel even the terribly painful feelings that we have to hide away most of the time. Sometimes, it just feels so good to let ourselves cry about those things, and that is no wrong, SG! (((((((SG))))))))

WLOH- your story is heartbreaking, and I am so sorry for what you have endured. I hope you will find the truth and the healing you need to find. and I just want to say that I think SG is a sweetie, and a very generous soul and won't resent you using her thread to say what you have needed to say here, so much! Good on you for saying it, and finding the courage to tell us more about your story. Keep on posting! ((((WLOH))))))

BB

SG, I just wanted to say, that it is a difficult grieving process you are in, too, and unusual, because you are forced to have some kind of contact all the time, or the hope of contact with this person whom you have such strong feeling of love for. So that just makes what you are suffering that much harder to endure, because it never goes away, it is inevitable that you would still be dealing with hopeful feelings in the middle of your grief, which certainly would keep the grief alive. I don't think you are in the least bit silly or juvenile...what you are dealing with here is serious stuff, and so difficult. (((((SG)))))

BB

WLOH and BB, thank you so much for your replies! I can't respond in as much detail as I'd like to right now, but I just wanted to say how much it means to me, and how much it helps to find a safe place to express this.

{{{{{{{{{{WLOH}}}}}}}}}} I'm shocked, horrified, and grieved for you more than I can possibly express. You certainly aren't whining, you've been through a terrible tragedy and if this thread gave you the space to talk about what happened then that's a good thing. Of course you need to speak about it and grieve it, please keep posting about it as much as you need to, anytime, anywhere. I can only imagine the terrible burden you are carrying. And yes, I've been through the "what would have been worse" scenario too...believe it or not, my mom actually started dating my ex-BF's dad right around the time we started breaking up. They ended up together for over six years and she was happier than she'd ever been in her entire life. Then he was killed in a car accident, and she's never gotten over it. (There is another very weird parallel between my story and my mom's but I'll stop for now) Sometimes I have thought, at least he didn't choose someone else like my ex-BF did...but actually that is kind of a crock, too, the pain is just as terrible, it is just as much of a loss. Your love must have been literally out of his mind with pain to do what he did...and I mean that not as a criticism of him, just as a way of putting into words how much it would hurt to lose my children. I shudder to think what I would do if something happened to them...anyway I'm sorry that your love was unable to see beyond the moment, unable to hang on long enough to see a way to keep them in his life, so you wouldn't now have to shoulder this burden of carrying on without him. No wonder you are just barely hanging on, feeling like the best parts of you went with him...I get that, I really do. Part of what is driving me to do this work in therapy is the glimmer of hope that came through my letters to him (really a journal addressed to him because that seems to be the only way to access that part of myself), that the love for him is a response that originates in me, and I wouldn't be able to see or appreciate all those wonderful qualities unless I had at least the potential for them in myself. Obviously it certainly doesn't take away the pain of losing him...the grief is horrible...but the idea that those things I love so much about him might really exist in me, even in "seed" form, is the only hope I have of reclaiming some of what I thought I lost. And if I have to burn through the grief in order to get to it, then so be it. The trouble in the last couple of years has been finding someone who knows what I'm talking about, and I finally, finally found her! And as always there are people here who know, too, and I'm so grateful for that.

Sorry I've really run off at the "mouth" (or keyboard as it were) when I said I didn't have time for a lengthy response...now I need to get to work...BB thank you again for your response, too, there is much I wanted to respond to in your post and I will do so later. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

Hugs,
SG

WLOH - one more thing - the plan for you and your love to get back together - I didn't think that sounded awful, especially under the circumstances on both his and your side. For a while, after running into my ex-BF, I fantasized something like that. But in my case, we've had no contact or agreement like that...and his wife really is fabulous, exactly the kind of spirit he is drawn to (I worked with her for a short time in high school, before he met her, so that's how I knew what she's like). So then I changed the fantasy to maybe our families can be friends...maybe this is the way it was supposed to be all along. So I tried sending a Christmas card to their family a couple of months after running into them (with my husband's knowledge and agreement). I even sent a little family picture in the card like I did with everyone else's. The response I got was very ambiguous and very confusing so I did not try anything after that. That's when I started looking for therapy. Sorry, I really have to go now...but I very much hope you and I both find the healing we need. Thank you again for sharing more of your story, I appreciate that you did that and I hope you feel welcome to share more if you'd like to.

Hugs again,
SG

quote:

Monte:
I've always thought I grieved so deeply and almost irrationally for this person because it was a solid memory that I could hang my ancient, unplaceable grief on. It satisfied my minds need for a logical, tangible reason for my pain. My childhood memories are so vague and unreliable...the loss of this person was a definite thing...but maybe a proxy for much deeper grief?

I think it's amazing that you've always thought this, Monte. I only figured it out within the last couple of years that there must be "more" to it, like you described so well. I've heard people describe how they keep wanting their parents to love them or approve of them, but as far as I can tell, I have no such "hooks", even though I "should". But that deep and irrational grief I feel for the ex-BF feels suspiciously like the kind of longing and approval I "should" have for my parents, if I could imagine what it would feel like. One really big clue was the kind of crying I did over him when I was alone in the bathroom (many hours of the year 2008) - I sounded so much like a hurt little girl, and after a while I noticed I was holding myself and rocking myself back and forth, as if to comfort myself. And the tears literally ran down my arms.

(And speaking of arms...the pain in my arms came back, too, the pain you recently described in your thread).

My ex-T said my feelings for the ex-BF are a symbol of something else, and I think he was right. I don't know if the work in therapy will lead back to long-buried feelings for my parents, or if it will stop with the ex-BF because maybe I never really attached to my parents...but maybe that doesn't really even matter as long as I work through it wherever it happens to be. And right now it is definitely on the ex-BF.

quote:

Blackbird:
Whenever we have a strong reaction of pain and grief to loss it is so important to listen to, and to have others who will listen to it with you and help you grieve and not be so alone with it. It doesn't sound like you have ever really had that, and I pray you will find it.

Thank you, BB. I think you are right, this kind of grief only circles back on itself when I grieve alone. I want to try grieving "with" someone to see if it helps break the cycle and allows me to reach acceptance. My T says the same thing you did, that I never really had that kind of attention. In fact she said it again today as I was telling her more of the story. I told her about the initial breakup, and how it felt, and when she asked was there anyone there with me to help me through it, of course the answer was no there wasn't. I have definitely found that safe place with her, where I can be heard and helped to grieve, and I'm so thankful for her. A good amount of tears came out today, and whenever that happens, she always asks how am I doing with that, do I feel okay about crying in her presence? And I do, I really do. Sometimes it seems like she doesn't quite believe me - maybe because for some there is shame about crying? And my mom always responded with scorn when I cried, saying I was just doing it to "get attention" as if it was a bad thing, so maybe she keeps expecting some shame to be there...and maybe there "should" be, with what my mom would say to me...but there really isn't, it's okay and even a relief, like you said - so I can just be grateful I don't have to deal with shame about the tears on top of the tears themselves, I was just lucky not to have absorbed the implications of shame (I have kind of a strong will...my dad was always telling me that...actually there is a lot of buried anger toward my mother, I know there is because every once in a while it comes out in a dream...so maybe the little girl in me would respond to this with "F*** you, mommy!" silently, of course...but GOOD for that little girl!!) But the pain is there, it has been there so long and I really just want it to be seen and heard and aired out and healed finally, please. I really do trust my T.

Thank you (and Monte, too!) for reassuring me that my feelings aren't "juvenile". I think the reason I said that is because I sound so young when I talk about it. In fact, I remember feeling embarrassed when my ex-T and I started reading through my narrative out loud because the tone sounds so much like a young girl, and I hadn't realized how it sounded when I was writing and reading it by myself. I was 11 when we met and 12 when we started dating. I was 15 when we broke up the first time and 17 when we broke up for the last time. And like I said before, I think all the attachment stuff that was supposed to happen with my parents got tangled up in him, too...so it makes sense that my talking about it would sound "juvenile" in kind of a literal, and not necessarily derogatory, way. Although that is the way it's usually been received the few times I've tried to talk about it before, so maybe I was throwing that out there as kind of a pre-emptive defense, like I'll say it before anyone else does because I know someone is going to think it.

And BB, you spoke of those "hopeful" feelings possibly being so troublesome, especially when I'll be running into him again...you are absolutely right about that, you've hit the nail squarely on the head. That is exactly why I want to work through this NOW. If anything leads back to what I was supposed to feel for my parents, that little girl hopeful wishing wanting him to tell me I'm good and approve of me is it. And it's so easy to mistake that for something else due to the nature of the actual relationship we had, which was romantic and sexual, very much so, and we shared lots of dreams and hopes during what was a really difficult time in our lives (our families met in family outpatient alcoholism treatment, the alcoholics being his dad and my mom). We planned to get married, and shared lots of dreams and hopes, and he became such a part of my family so fast...he just seemed to make everything all right. And I don't think it was just the timing, although that was certainly a huge factor...it was also that he really is a very special guy (BB I think he could be in the running for the Woman Whisperer...he would have my vote) and it just plain damn hurt to lose him, that he didn't wait for me, that he found someone he loved better. Then combine all that with being each other's first "love", which is usually incredibly intense under normal circumstances, and these weren't normal...and you get a 25-year heartache. I don't know if processing it will take it away...probably not completely...but it's the only thing left to do, and even if it doesn't take it away, I'd like to at least learn how to ride it out when the feelings hit so I can know there is an end to the ride and it doesn't have to end with me doing something stupid or unethical.

You know, as I was reading through my initial post, I thought, damn, I'm right back where I started over two years ago with mourning the ex-BF. Where is the progress in that? But then right behind that came another thought: But THIS time, I KNOW where I'm going! HAH!

Love you guys...thank you...
SG

WLOH, I'm so sorry you had to experience such a devastating loss. I know a little about how you feel in that suicide has touched my life from a few different directions. It leaves the survivors with a huge aching empty hole and so many questions that can never really be answered. You always wonder if you could have done something... but the answer to that is no. When someone is so determined to end their life there really is no way to stop it or to even know what is going on in their minds. I find that many people who end their lives have been really good at hiding just how serious the situation is. I know you are trying to survive the worst nightmare but I think you have an incredible resiliency because you ARE here and you ARE in therapy talking about this and you are risking to reach out to us for support. These are all signs of health and a drive towards life. You are stronger than you know and those parts of you that you think you lost with your love, they will come back to life eventually when you have grieved the loss. I am so glad you were able to talk to us about this and just know that we are here for you. Sending you many supportive hugs ((((((WLOH)))))

SG, you write so eloquently about your struggle to get over the break-up with your old BF and I can see how much insight you are gaining into this. While it is still endlessly painful I think you truly are heading in the right direction. I have found that grieving with my T for what I have lost or never had to begin with but should have had from my parents has been immensely healing. Having him witness my pain and grief and the loss I feel has made so much difference which I really cannot explain.

One of the first major revelations I made to my T, after about six months of testing him, was to tell him about the loss of a person in my life who was very close to me and very important to me. This person (BC) was a very close friend, although it was not romantic in any way, it was a truly supportive and emotionally intimate friendship. We had a common interest and it brought us together... stiving for a common goal. This went on for over 10 years and one day I decided to tell him how important he had become to me and that I felt that I loved him. He was not married but I am. I was not proposing that we enter into a relationship of any kind I just really wanted him to know how important he had become in my life. We were very similar, had similar histories and we seemed to sort of "fit" together. Well, after I told him this the entire relationship changed. I guess he could not handle knowing my feelings and he got scared or revolted or who knows what. He began to back away and he would start arguments with me for no reason and then the project we were working on became more difficult and he basically told me I could no longer be a part of it. Because we do not live near each other and did most of our working via telephone it was hard to mend the situation. And so it went unresolved. I lost him from my life and was so devastated that I could not eat, sleep or function well for awhile. Life lost all meaning. I could not tell anyone because no one would understand how I felt and they would think I was some horrible person for wanting to spend time with a guy who I was not married to. So I went through this alone, trying to function normally and cover up the pain and anguish and grief. I would wake up each morning shaking with anxiety, dreading the day ahead, thinking that I could never survive another bleak, endless, joyless day.

Talking to my T about this was very hard because I thought he would see me as some shameful, wanton, unfaithful wife who would go after another guy (even though I just craved the friendship) when she was married. But I took the chance. I remember when I decided to tell him I asked for an extended session. We talked for 100 minutes... he listened to me, cried with me and then explained to me how he saw things. He told me that he thought that this guy provided me with the emotional support and empathy and understanding that I was not getting or did not get from my parents, or my husband for that matter. That I seemed also to be able to give BC something that he needed as well. That we were each other's support and strength. He thought the story was really important to know about and he was totally non-judgemental and very supportive.

This was all before we realized that I had an attachment injury. It all seems to make more sense now. I guess I was also looking for that one person who I could attach to, who made me feel safe, who I felt I could trust with my life, who would be there to listen to me and help support me through difficult times. Having someone I could count on was so new and felt so good. I could never count on my parents. My father was emotionally detached and avoided involvement in family stuff and my mother was always unstable, hysterical or angry at me. I could never tell her anything as she could not handle it. And so BC became my rock, my safe place. And for that matter I became his too. When he was upset or something happened in his life I was the one he called. I was always there for him too. Maybe he attached to me as well and I was "his" safe place. Who knows?

After being in therapy for 2.5 years I am slowly coming to a place of acceptance about what happened. I have seen BC 3 or 4 times since the dissolution of our close relationship. He has been cautiously cordial and even warm at times. I am sure that there is still a fondness for me lurking down deep inside him. The hard part was that I never knew how he felt about me really. It sort of made me crazy thinking I was imagining our connection and our closeness. My T is convinced that BC had feelings for me and got scared and just backed away. But the legacy it left me with was this: If I should ever be honest and tell someone how I feel about them, then they will disappear from my life. That it is wrong to be honest about feelings. And that's why it terrifies me that my T will discover the feelings I have for him.

What is interesting is that now a lot of what I needed and was looking for in BC I have found in my T. The safe place, the trust, the understanding and empathy. He gives that to me and allows me to work through the attachment injury, along with the other stuff that comes with complex PTSD. I can now think of BC without anguish and pain, just a sort of sad nostalgia at what was lost.

So SG, I do understand the pain of what you are feeling and why it can get so tangled up in other aspects of what we didn't have as children. Monte put it very well in that quote you noted in your post. That this is a place, a real situation to hang that grief upon. That grief that we know is somewhere inside of us but that we never understood. So while the grief over lost relationships as adults is very real, it also comes from what we lost as children but are only discovering now.

Sorry for rambling so much about this. I guess I do just want to reassure you that it is possible to get past the intense pain to a place where you can almost go a few days without even thinking about it.

Hugs,
TN

I can't possibly add anything valuable to this discussion after all of the great support and insight that you've received on this thread, but wanted to say that I'm sorry it is so hard. It is understandable that you would be grieving and your feelings are not juvenile. ((((SG))))

quote:

Yes...that is exactly how it is in these situations. To go through this sort of pain and not have it validated by the comfort, love and understanding of others makes you feel you have no right to experience what you are experiencing, that it is not 'real'...that you should almost feel guilty. How do you then ever truly process it and work through it?

Monte, this is where the relationship with my T has become so invaluable to me. He has given me the okay I needed to truly experience what I felt through the whole situation. All the feelings that I was running and hiding from, the ones stuffed and crammed into the closet with the locked door. With his understanding and support I could finally talk about it with someone who would not judge me (and believe me I tested him and checked on that numerous times). He made it seem okay for me to have these feelings and normalized the whole situation for me. Talking this through and processing this with him has helped to heal those wounds that had been left open for so long.

TN

Oh wow...something I said yesterday to Russ just boomeranged right back at me:

quote:

Is it possible that, if you let down that guard and accept what your T can give you as real, that it will also bring you face-to-face with what he can't give you, and what your dad didn't give you? The danger you still feel, that wall...is it really protecting you from having to feel the bulk of that unspeakable rage toward your father? Is there part of you that believes your T not being able to give what your dad didn't give you is actually the same thing?

My T gently and carefully pointed out yesterday that while we were dating, my ex-BF was not respectful or considerate of my well-being, was manipulative to get his own needs met, and completely disregarded mine. I strenuously defended him, pointing out all his good qualities and all the evidence that he really did love me at one time. I'm a far cry from dismissing that evidence...but the thought that maybe he really DIDN'T love me keeps going round my mind. It has made an appearance a few times in the past couple years, but I fling it away quickly because the idea just hurts WAY too much. But since yesterday I've been letting it hang around long enough to wonder why does it hurt way too much...and the answer comes, because then I've never really been loved at all. And for some reason that makes me feel like I will come completely undone...so I pushed it away...and it came back, again...I was never really loved at all.

And then it collided with what I said yesterday, and came out this way: "Is it possible that, if I let down my guard and see the reality of that relationship, that it will also bring me face-to-face with what I could never hope to get from my parents? Is that the source of the "then I was never really loved at all" feeling that threatens to make me come unhinged? My stubborn clinging to this very threadbare idea that he really really DID love me, and that he somehow mysteriously and inexplicably changed...is it really protecting me from having to feel all that despair, sadness, rage?"

This is too intense...need to back off because I don't see my T until Monday. But wow, okay. This could be good I guess. *gulp*

SG

Good but scary. Breathe, SG, please remember to breathe....((((SG)))))

Lots of comforting hugs for you right now. Wish I could say more, but it will have to wait, just now.

BB

{{{{{{True North}}}}}}

Thank you for sharing your story. I am so sorry that you were inexplicably abandoned after opening up your feelings to your dear friend of 10 years, it is really hard to imagine how you went on with that unresolved. I'm sorry you had to handle it alone...it's horrible, isn't it, when you feel like you are dying inside and there is no one to listen or understand, and you know you will possibly even be judged as defective if you open up.

I LOVE that your T heard you and was able to normalize this for you, allow you to be heard without judging so you could work through the pain of what happened...oh that kind of thing hurts SO much...to be told you are defective on top of it just heaps more coals on your head...so I'm very happy that you found refuge in your T. And yes, I could have written all you said about looking for that one person who made me feel safe, could count on, would be my rock. I thought my ex-BF was IT and ever since I lost him I've been looking for him again. It is very hard to imagine never finding him...it brings a taste of grief or something equally overwhelming just to think of it so I'm going to stop now because I don't see T until Monday! And I want to go through this with her.

Thank you TN for sharing this story so generously, it means a lot to me that you did and helps so much. I'm glad you found what you were looking for in BC, in your T now - the safe place, the trust, the understanding, and empathy. May it continue indefinitely.

Hugs,
SG

quote:

This is too intense...need to back off because I don't see my T until Monday. But wow, okay. This could be good I guess. *gulp*

SG,
I (of course!) have some stuff to say about this, but want to make sure you're in a good place. And let me make it clear that I believe it's a wise thing to wait until you have support when you know something is going to be difficult. So just let me know when you feel like you're in a good place.

AG

Thanks, BB! Still breathing here. Thanks for making me smile. And for keeping me oxygenated.

AG: How about a "good enough" place? Seriously, I'm OK for now...defenses must be back up, I guess. That just really caught me off guard last night. Very strange feeling to have my words come right back at me. I would love to hear what you have to say. I'm pretty sure I can keep the "lid" on until Monday. Besides, you always have such great insights...so I don't think I have the patience to wait that long to hear your thoughts!

SG

I read so much pain on this thread - SG I wanted to reply when you first posted but your experience is way beyond anything I’ve known and SG, WLOH and TN reading your posts was so heartwrenching.

I have no idea what it’s like to love like that, which is why I don’t have anything of use to say, but didn’t want to leave your pain unacknowledged so just wanted to say I’ve read and feel for you all. Loss, loss and more loss - I hope you all are able to grieve as much as you need to for your losses.

LL

p.s. I too want to know what AG has to say about this - for a reply guaranteed to make you put yourself in a good place SG, it did the trick didn’t it lol.

STRM - Your kind words help more than I can say, especially that my feelings aren't juvenile. Every time I hear that it gives me permission to open up a little more. I never thought I'd find a safe place to work this out. So thank you!

LL - It is great to "see" you again. Thank you so much for what you said, it's funny how it helps enormously just to have "permission" to grieve. Don't know why, but it's so so important. So thank you for your empathy and encouragement!

SG

Thank you LL and SG for the hugs and kind words of support. SG... I felt the same way. When I lost BC from my life I spent the next years trying to find him again... or what he gave me... in someone else. It took 8 years for me to end up in therapy and I think before I even started my individual sessions with my T that I somehow knew this was a person who could hear my story... all of it and be okay with it. I knew this somehow in my mind, but it still took me a long time to get to the point with my T that I could implicitly trust him. It was like my head and my intellect told me he was okay and trustworthy but I had to FEEL it and experience it on that implicit level before I could go with him places I have never been with anyone else emotionally. And I had to feel it and experience it over and over and over again. He could not just tell me he was safe, I had to experience the safety with him before I could accept it. And not only do I get that same feeling I had with BC, it's even more powerful and healing and comforting and soothing. Maybe because this relationship is all about ME and my needs and not BC's needs or issues.

I think it's sort of the same with you. Your ex-BF provided things that your parents did not or could not and losing an attachment figure is truly painful. As for your parents not loving you, well I don't think that is true... and I say this because I think you are very lovable and worthy of love. Perhaps they did love you in their dysfunctional way. Unfortunately, they did not meet your emotional needs and help you to grow and develop in the way they should have, probably because they were too focused on themselves and their issues and wants. I'm so sorry this happened to you. You deserved a ton more than you got from them. I'm just glad that you now have a really good T to be with you while you work all of this out and grieve it so you can finally put it to rest and be free of the pain.

Hugs back to you ((((((SG))))))).

And... I too wait to hear what AG has to say.

TN

Hi SG, TN, WLOH, and others -

Not much I can offer to this thread, hence the reason I haven't posted, but I just wanted to let you all know that I've been reading and supporting you all...just silently! It's heartbreaking what both SG, TN, and WLOH have lost. I suppose I could have just quoted LL's whole reply, because that's exactly how I feel about this.

Many, many hugs to all of you!!!

quote:

My T gently and carefully pointed out yesterday that while we were dating, my ex-BF was not respectful or considerate of my well-being, was manipulative to get his own needs met, and completely disregarded mine. I strenuously defended him, pointing out all his good qualities and all the evidence that he really did love me at one time. I'm a far cry from dismissing that evidence...but the thought that maybe he really DIDN'T love me keeps going round my mind. It has made an appearance a few times in the past couple years, but I fling it away quickly because the idea just hurts WAY too much. But since yesterday I've been letting it hang around long enough to wonder why does it hurt way too much...and the answer comes, because then I've never really been loved at all. And for some reason that makes me feel like I will come completely undone...so I pushed it away...and it came back, again...I was never really loved at all.

And then it collided with what I said yesterday, and came out this way: "Is it possible that, if I let down my guard and see the reality of that relationship, that it will also bring me face-to-face with what I could never hope to get from my parents? Is that the source of the "then I was never really loved at all" feeling that threatens to make me come unhinged? My stubborn clinging to this very threadbare idea that he really really DID love me, and that he somehow mysteriously and inexplicably changed...is it really protecting me from having to feel all that despair, sadness, rage?"

Hi SG et al
Sorry to be a tease! I didn’t mean to make you wait longer, I just went to bed early last night (for once!) because I have my first phone shift from 7-11 PM tonight and wanted to make sure I got a good night’s rest.

I believe you are approaching the heart of therapy for someone with attachment issues. I want to add my usual disclaimer that what I am going to say is most definitely based on my own experience and what worked for me is not necessarily what will work for other people, nor might it be necessary for someone else to do this part to heal. I also ask for your patience, because this is complicated and very difficult to articulate, so I’m hoping this will make sense, but can easily see it falling far short of the mark. And one last thing, it was only from the other side that I was able to see the pattern and sense to what happened. It was gonzo confusing, difficult and baffling while going through it. I had NO idea what I was doing (my T did thank heaven) but just kept pushing through the fear trusting that when my T told me there was another side and I could heal, that it was true. There was nothing very neat or ordered about all this.

Last but not least and I want to be REALLY clear about this: I’m going to talk about things my T provided and wouldn’t provide. What he did was perfect for me and worked for our theraputic dyad but is NOT a comment on what other Ts do or are willing to do in therapy for their clients. I have been very blessed by being led to the person I needed to heal; but the healing path is unique, I believe, for everyone, and will be different from person to person.

My therapy has definitely centered around my relationship with my T and more and more as it went on, my sessions were about discussing our relationship. My T did a couple of very important things for me: He never did anything for me that I was capable of doing for myself. He would immediately, consistently and repeatedly provide for me things I needed that he could. He NEVER, for even a moment, held out the possibility of providing something for me he knew he couldn’t in the long run. All three of these components were vitally important to my healing. All three of the components at one time or another made me fantasize about hitting him with a heavy blunt object. What was even more infuriating was that he understood how angry I got what he was doing and why I would want to throw something at him. I have never wanted so badly to fight with someone who absolutely refused to. This let me alone with my own feelings. Something I had been avoiding my whole life.

My life has been one long search to get the love, acceptance and understanding I should have gotten from my parents from somewhere else. I KNEW, knew with a life and death desperation, that if I could just find the right someone to actually love me, accept me, know all of me and not leave that I would FINALLY be all right, and safe and never hurt again and never hate myself again. When I say lifelong, I mean it. In grappling with my relationship with my T, it helped me see a lifelong pattern of getting involved with a man, who was finally the “right” one, only to be disappointed again, and move on still searching.

My T however stuck around through all the craziness, was patient with my terror both of him leaving and me staying. Enabled me to see just how scared I was to get close. Always patient, always understanding, let me contact him around the clock and never, ever, got upset with me. Never lost his patience, never got defensive, never made it about himself. And worked, harder than anyone ever has, to understand how I felt and why I felt that way. He normalized how I felt and helped me to understand how I felt. I just described the perfect parent right?

But it wasn’t enough, I still screamed in pain and cried rivers over what I couldn’t have. I screamed at him about what I couldn’t have. And throughout it when I would talk about the pain I was in, my therapist kept telling me that of course therapy wasn’t enough. And if I’m honest, in my head I kept thinking WTF?!?! then why am I here going through this. If it’s not enough, how will it help?

My T knew what he COULD give me. A steady presence, a dependable, wiser, stronger, other that I could depend on, a place where I could be heard and understood, where I could learn that I mattered because I did to him. Where all of me could be expressed, and I could learn that all of me was acceptable because he accepted all of it without changing. Someone who could help me to express my long buried, intolerable emotions. Who could contain me and teach me, implicitly by being with me, how to handle those emotions. By giving me a safe place to be scared.

BUT, and here’s the painful part, there are some things I should have received in childhood which I can now never receive. We can take things in on a level as children that is not possible later in life and so some things we can’t get later. They are very real losses and the only thing which can be done about them is to mourn them. It hurts just to remember this part. The losses were so severe, and our resources so scanty, if not non-existent, that these losses were never admitted, let alone grieved and buried so deeply.

Back to the lifelong search. My T allowed me to see that I had been chasing a fantasy because I finally had from him everything I thought I had been looking for and it wasn’t enough. He told me it wasn’t enough. What took me a really long time to realize was that so much of those relationships I had been chasing were fantasy. Don’t get me wrong, I would start with a real person, but then I would dress them up in my head into someone their own mother wouldn’t recognize and dream about how perfect it would be with them. Until after a couple of years of (usually) being treated badly, or ignored, the fantasy would finally break down and I would have to move on. I was able to realize this while reading the book When Food is Love by Geneen Roth because she talked in great detail about how we use food and/or idealized relationships to hold off the pain of what was missing. I just want to quote a few passages below:

quote:

Children must deny and ignore what causes them pain. Children must cling lovingly to those who abuse them, because given the choice between an abusive person and no one at all, there is no choice. The difference between someone and no one is the difference between life and death. Children must be ever-faithful, patient, responsive, forgiving, and willing to take horrendous abuse without saying no. Children must build elaborate fantasies that turn people who abuse and leave them to people who love and adore them. Because of their ability to fantasize--and to actually believe that what they are fantasizing is or will someday be true--children can endure their suffering.

If a parent is absent, unavailable, abusive, or dead, it is extraordinarily useful and often necessary to create a fantasy world in which that parent or a parent figure is alive, available and loving. The exact nature of that fantasy will depend on the reasons fantasy is necessary: If a father is violent, he may be imbued with tenderness; if a mother is often absent; she will become readily available. The fantasy is created in counterpoint to the pain of everyday life. All that is flawed becomes sublime. Excuses are made for inexcusable behavior; my mom didn’t mean to hit me, she is just tired; my dad loves me so much that he works hard to buy me pretty things and that is why he is not here.

When you experience the kind of deprivation in childhood that we did, you carry that ability to fantasize with you always, you become adept and sophisticated at implementing it. And you keep looking to fulfill the fantasy. Because if you don’t; if you recognize the impossibility of fulfilling that, you are left alone naked before your loss.

I kept throwing myself against the boundaries, demanding what I wanted and sometimes getting it and sometimes receiving very clear no's. This was the confusing, really hard part because I had to sort through my feelings, desires, and wants, using my Ts very clear boundaries to identify the needs that could still be fulfilled and separate them from the losses that must be mourned. And it was my T’s ability to be very clear about what he could give and what he couldn’t, that allowed me to acheive this clarity. Seeing what I couldn’t have from him (24/7 access, being special, being held) let me see what I didn’t, and couldn’t have, at least in a way that would replace what I didn’t have then.

You can see some of this in my old posts. The breakthrough I had in realizing that my T really wasn’t going to be enough was here. And when I finally faced the grief was here.

There was so much denial to be stripped away. I had to learn to trust and believe my T would actually stay through my pain. I had to learn to believe I would survive facing that pain. Which is why it took years of work. I remember during the session where I finally acknowledged the loss of what I didn’t have and never could, and allowed myself to feel that my T telling me it was probably the hardest thing I would ever do. I think he was right.

I didn’t do it all at once, that really would have overwhelmed me. And it was the most difficult thing I’ve ever had to do. The pain was such that I completely understood why it had been locked away for so many decades and why I had worked so hard to not know it. But having said all that, it was a relief to finally feel it, to have it heard and understood, to have someone WITH ME when I experienced that pain. It had always been a place where I was utterly alone, but this time when I went, a loving other went with me. It made all the difference. And looking at it, feeling it, acknowledging it, robbed it of so much of its power. I don’t have to keep looking for something I cannot find. Those losses have become something that happened to me in the past, not something I live with everyday. I don’t mean it doesn’t ever hurt again or I never feel it, but now I do so knowing that I can feel those feelings and handle it.

So I think you’re right that you are getting near to something very significant and very painful and I’m glad that you’re treating that with respect. I hope this made some sense and might help with what you’re going through. I believe you’ve found the T that can walk there with you.

Thank you, TN, Kashley, and AG. There is so much I want to say on this and so many other threads right now...but I am falling asleep at the computer. So forgive me if the following makes not much sense but I did want to post something...

quote:

True North:
And not only do I get that same feeling I had with BC, it's even more powerful and healing and comforting and soothing. Maybe because this relationship is all about ME and my needs and not BC's needs or issues.

That is very cool that you get the same feeling with your T as you did with BC, only it's turning out better. That's where I thought the healing would be with my ex-T, because I had basically the same feeling with him, too. Of course I don't get the same feeling with the T I have now...but she is safe and that is incredibly important right now. As for my parents...I just don't know yet about them. There is no connection back to them yet but it'll probably come one of these days. Thank you for being here.

Kashley - Thank you for your "silent" support - it is very much appreciated!

AG - I am really super-duper glad to hear you are taking care of yourself and getting lots of rest! It is weird, there was a lot you said that is familiar to me from some of your other posts, but now I'm hearing them differently. It is a strange shifting feeling. Yikes. (insert Twilight Zone theme here) Have you ever played Jenga? It feels like I started pulling out that last block that's going to make the whole tower collapse. I've stopped for now, though, and the tower is swaying. Just knowing where that block is feels really weird. Part of me wants to leave it in, but another part of me says no, it's a crappy tower, yank it out and get it over with. But a slow collapse would probably be best.

Sorry my brain is really shutting down...there is more I want to say but it will have to wait. AG I hope you had a good shift tonight on the crisis line! I hope we get to hear about it later when you have time.

WLOH - You OK out there? {{{{{{WLOH}}}}}}

SG

AG,

Thank you so much for such a richly detailed description of the process of your healing. You wrote beautifully and very clearly and so much of it is resonating with me. And some of it is "triggering", too, so I can see why you asked if I'm in a "good place". What is really weird is the feeling of holding off the triggers...not avoiding, but waiting until later. Do you have any idea what I'm talking about (because I don't! LOL! ) It is like the beginning of letting go of a very long-standing denial. It is such a strange feeling. There is so much here that I'm reading and rereading it, and all kinds of thoughts and feelings and questions are coming up, but I'm going to have to wait until I have more time before I can respond as thoroughly as I'd like to. But I wanted to let you know how much I appreciate the time and effort you took to write this out, it is helping so so much. Thank you.

SG

AG,

quote:

there are some things I should have received in childhood which I can now never receive. We can take things in on a level as children that is not possible later in life and so some things we can’t get later. They are very real losses and the only thing which can be done about them is to mourn them.

I have heard this before. Can you explaiin what it is we missed that is irreplaceable?

It is difficult for me to identify with your path of healing, AG, since my T terminated me. I am forced to take those feelings of abandonment and betrayal to another T and work through them. The termination does give me something tangible with which to work out the issues of childhood neglect and abandonement. It is the strict boundary I ran into with my T. She didn't want to repair the relationship, help me resolve the transference issues, express my feeings or hear my complaints. She also didn't take the time to carefully transfer me to another T so I wasn't given the chance to feel the pain of losing her in her presence. It is obvious she wanted me to take that pain to someone else. The thoughts, "it shouldn't be this way" keep me from doing the work I need to heal. As if I can change what has happened if I just think about it hard enough. It's childish I know. I need to accept reality; life is not fair and nothing is (or ever was) as it should be. It's tempting to jump forward to 'acceptance' and just let it go. Partly because I am afraid if I accesss the hurt and anger and let it be toward her that I will lose whatever I have left of her that is good. I recognize myself in the biblical account of the paralytic on the side of the pool and Jesus stops to ask, "Do you want to be healed?" Yes! I want to be healed and I know what I must do; please heal these deep wounds! I need to let myself talk more about the loss and feel the pain and reality of it. I don't recall who sang the words "the first cut is the deepest" but it's true. I need to let the horrific pain of what she did to me connect to how it felt to be unloved, neglected and abandoned the first time, as a child. I need to rage at those who failed to respond to my cries for help or meet my needs.

I also need to face the pain of seeking help from someone who could not help(rescue) me. I don't want to be a sucker for trusting somoeone who hurt me. That is a repeat of my past and another layer yet to be processed and it creates an arguement between my feelings and intellect over who is at fault. This perceived failure is really hard for me! Even though I could not have known it would end this way.

SG, I know this is your thread and I do hope there is something in what I just shared that will help. We are both, in a sense, trying to get over unrequited love. Your parents could not meet your needs for love and affection that you so desperately needed as a young girl. So you took what was available and found what you needed in the arms of another. Naturally you thought he was your knight in shining armour and dreamt of happily ever after. If you did not attach to your parents then I can see why the fear of losing the emotional attachment to this guy would be enormous. I am sorry you have carried this pain for so long. SG, you have many more resources than you did when you first lost him and they will help you find a new song in your heart once you get through all the pain.

deeplyrooted

Hi Deeplyrooted,

Thank you for your understanding the attachment issues around my ex-BF. I'm continually amazed to find so much support about this...part of me still wants to say this is so unbelievably trivial. But I am really trying to ignore that voice and hoping it will just give up and shut up eventually.

There is so much in your post that resonated with me...I really really hear this...this has to do with one of the questions that's coming up (as it's come before)...I know you were addressing AG when you said this, but I'd like to respond to it too:

quote:

It is difficult for me to identify with your path of healing, AG, since my T terminated me. I am forced to take those feelings of abandonment and betrayal to another T and work through them. The termination does give me something tangible with which to work out the issues of childhood neglect and abandonement. It is the strict boundary I ran into with my T. She didn't want to repair the relationship, help me resolve the transference issues, express my feeings or hear my complaints. She also didn't take the time to carefully transfer me to another T so I wasn't given the chance to feel the pain of losing her in her presence. It is obvious she wanted me to take that pain to someone else.

This is exactly what happened with me and my former T, too...it was such a reenactment of what happened between me and my mom, my dad, and the ex-BF, it's not even funny.

quote:

I also need to face the pain of seeking help from someone who could not help(rescue) me. I don't want to be a sucker for trusting somoeone who hurt me. That is a repeat of my past and another layer yet to be processed and it creates an arguement between my feelings and intellect over who is at fault. This perceived failure is really hard for me! Even though I could not have known it would end this way.

{{{{{{{{{{{DR}}}}}}}}}}}}} Oh, I know, I KNOW this. For a really long time I beat myself up terribly for trusting the ex-T. Sucker is a really good word for how it felt. Lots of other derogatory words for myself come to mind. That perceived failure was really really hard for me, too! And you are so right, there is no way we could POSSIBLY have known it would end this way...in fact, we were being trusting against all experience to the contrary that it wouldn't! Terribly painful...the only thing more painful for me was the actual breakup with the ex-BF. So I really understand the pain of not being allowed to work through the perfectly natural feelings that were evoked in therapy. I can tell from your story that you really wanted and STILL want healing, and you were SO let down JUST when you opened up. Horrible, horrible feeling...like splattering all over the cement after jumping off that building where you're supposed to learn new courage. In my case, my ex-T even encouraged the development and the expression of those feelings...then turned around and "threw me under the bus" (AG's very appropriate description). The feelings of betrayal are horrible and it is so unfair, when we went to them for HELP with these injuries, and got injured yet again.

You need to hear many many times that you did NOTHING wrong in expressing your feelings. NOTHING at all. Your T was unable to handle hearing about your feelings because of some kind of deficiency in HER. She was unable to handle it. Not you. This is not your fault!! I know that doesn't take away the hurt and disappointment and frustration and anger...but I know that I needed to hear that SO much for a long time after the therapy fell apart with the ex-T, just to keep moving forward. And every single one of those times was absolutely necessary for me to hear. I'll bet the same is true for you too.

Just like you, I've looked for the "good" in this..and one of the main things is what you said, it gives me a "tangible", or more recent, example that kind of brings those feelings back to life, so I know what I'm "looking for" in my past, not only regarding the ex-BF, but my parents too.

What is it that I'm trying to bring back to life? For the ex-BF, the "good" stuff is easy to remember, too easy, in fact...so I don't need any help with that. I've idealized it so much...but it was really hard to remember the "bad" stuff. What happened with the ex-T is helping me to remember that part...not just intellectually, but emotionally. The ex-BF really was not very nice to me at all...but I kept excusing it, just like AG's quote from When Food Is Love describes. In both cases (ex-T and ex-BF), I kept coming up with alternate explanations for all the red flags I was seeing...in another thread, I said I was pretending the red flags were pretty geraniums. With the parents, it's harder to remember what I felt as a kid. The ex-T's behavior reminded me of my mother's coldness and emotional unavailability, her scorn of my emotional needs, and of my father's duplicity - acting one way in front of us kids, and another way entirely in front of others.

Interestingly enough, my ex-T also reminds me of what is probably my favorite characteristic of my father: he is passionately opinionated, and very theatrical when expressing it. LOVES to talk about himself, really can't help making everything about him. And if I put aside my expectations and just listen, he is great fun to listen to. And if I happen to be interested in something he knows something about, oh man can that guy talk. His energy is palpable...very enthusiastic. But also very selfish, and quite dismissive of any opinions that don't match his own. He's self-aware enough to try to cover it up...but you can see through it pretty easily if you talk to him long enough.

Wow...sorry, I didn't mean to get off on that tangent! I hope that might be helpful, too...but anyway, what I was going to say is, sometimes it is hard reading AG's account of working through it with her T, because that's what I wanted to do, too. And that is one of the things I wonder about. Something about working with my ex-T was stirring things up like crazy! I wish he would have held perfectly still while I "slammed into the boundaries" as she puts it, so that I could have learned those lessons, too. They sound exactly like the ones I need to learn. And with this T, there just isn't the same dynamic, and there never will be with her, because I only do that with MEN. Which is very confusing, because I had the more damaging relationship with my mom...so I would think I'd be looking for a mother figure, not a father figure. But then...maybe I'm looking for a father to make it all OK, because my father was my refuge (of sorts) as a kid? He was the only one who gave me anything? Ok I'm stopping here, not going to figure it out today...

One thing I know for sure, is this T I'm with now could have been "made to order" in every other way...and since there is absolutely zilch I can do to change the ex-T's mind about working with me...all I can do (and you can do) is go forward from here. But it really does feel like a wasted opportunity, doesn't it...just when the "real stuff" started happening in therapy, we were thrown out. I wanted to go back and scream, You just missed the entire flipping POINT of this therapy, you schmuck!!

Ahem...excuse me, sorry about that.

I LOVE what AG said in these two quotes:

quote:

I want to add my usual disclaimer that what I am going to say is most definitely based on my own experience and what worked for me is not necessarily what will work for other people, nor might it be necessary for someone else to do this part to heal.

quote:

I have been very blessed by being led to the person I needed to heal; but the healing path is unique, I believe, for everyone, and will be different from person to person.

One thing I've wondered is, maybe the path AG describes would have been too intense for me. Maybe I couldn't have handled it - maybe at some point I might have gotten so sidetracked by the feelings for my ex-T that I really would have started trying to have an actual relationship with him. Maybe the only way that will work for me is to work through it with another T, where it's not about them. Kind of an indirect way to do it...but maybe that can work, too.

Another thought I've had is, maybe the men who trigger me in the necessary way, necessarily have characteristics that preclude a successful therapy with them! For example, looking back at my journal now, I see that I was getting immensely triggered by my ex-T's unpredictability, defensiveness, dismissiveness, and "gaminess" or seductiveness...all characteristics of mom, dad, and ex-BF, and NONE of it conducive to therapy. All of it, in fact, practically guarantees failure of the therapy, AND practically guarantees that I will be blamed for it. And it really does trigger my old coping mechanisms of trying to be "good", trying to please, not rocking the boat, even trying to play along with the games I think I see (without knowing the rules), and what that results in is one great big MESS. Not therapy.

But there is so, so SO much in AG's account that I CAN relate to, in terms of WHAT I want to heal from. I LOVE what she said here:

quote:

But having said all that, it was a relief to finally feel it, to have it heard and understood, to have someone WITH ME when I experienced that pain. It had always been a place where I was utterly alone, but this time when I went, a loving other went with me. It made all the difference. And looking at it, feeling it, acknowledging it, robbed it of so much of its power. I don’t have to keep looking for something I cannot find. Those losses have become something that happened to me in the past, not something I live with everyday. I don’t mean it doesn’t ever hurt again or I never feel it, but now I do so knowing that I can feel those feelings and handle it.

Maybe the person who is with us when we experience that pain, doesn't have to be the one who is also "evoking" it, so to speak. Do you think you can work through the pain of your childhood, AND the pain of what happened with your former T, with the T you have now? Maybe you're not sure yet, you haven't been with her very long, I know. I remember you described in another thread all the work you are doing to lay the foundation.

Does your current T allow you to talk about your anger and disappointment, hurt and frustration, regarding the betrayal from your previous T? I hope so...being able to do that has helped me get to the point where I don't sink into self-blame and self-loathing anymore when I think about it, trying to figure out what I did wrong. But it took about as much time in therapy with this T, as I was with the last T (8 months), to get to that point. And that's not to say I think it was okay, what happened...just that I'm not "spinning out" about it anymore, not getting depressed about it, or trying so hard to figure him out anymore. I'd still like to know what the frick happened...but I'm okay not knowing, too.

I've started to experience some of the pain I want to work through with my current T. It is actually a relief for me NOT to have any of the pain associated with her, either in reality or as "transference". Maybe this is just the way it has to be for me not to get distracted. I really don't know what would happen if I tried therapy with a healthy man who did not have the same characteristics that trigger me. I'd love to find out...maybe someday. For now I'm going to go as far with my current T as possible.

Wow, this really turned into a ramble...I hope it makes some sense! I've got to boogie right now. Hang in there {{{{{DR}}}}} and keep talking about what happened with the ex-T here if you need to. I for one can most DEFINITELY say there is no WAY you can wear me out on that one! I know exactly what it feels like, how it keeps circling around and threatens to pull you down into that vortex. I will be happy to tell you as many times as you need to hear it, this was NOT your fault, you did nothing wrong (passing on to you what was so kindly done for me, by the way!!) But as hard as you are working, you WILL break free from it eventually. And we will both learn and grow from these experiences - it will be like "gold".

Hugs,
SG

BB is just sitting here in the corner, listening...hope you don't mind!

BB

BB can I join you?

Wow AG and SG reading your stuff is so amazing - I could happily read whatever you write forever - please don’t ever think about cutting short your posts in case they are too long - they’re not long enough!

DR (and SG too) it makes so much sense to me that something emotionally devastating that’s just happened recently is actually ‘positive’ in the sense that it can be a more immediate catalyst for connecting to forgotten or half remembered feelings/experiences from the past. So in that way maybe the terrible experiences you both had with dodgy Ts does actually have an upside. Cold comfort I know, I’m just applying it as something intellectually positive.

DR I have some ideas about what AG might have meant, but I’d also like to hear how she explains it (as it is a given she will explain it with absolute clarity unlike me and I’d rather like to hear it put into words too.)

Hugs to you both DR and SG.

Now back to sitting with BB in the corner to carry on listening.

LL

(((DR)))
I'm sorry DR it must have been very difficult to read all that going through what you're going through right now. I agree with everything that SG said to you and she's really right, it wasn't your fault. The lack was in your therapist. And what you experienced is just why therapist's need to take their responsibility to their patient's so seriously. The truth is that when we choose to trust and open up, we're doing something incredibly difficult and dangerous. But we risk it because we're supposed to be able to trust them. Which is why its so incredibly damaging. All our worst fears are confirmed about what happens if we choose to trust someone and expect good things. I actually looked at my T once and said "Do not screw this up, if you do, I'll crawl back in a cave and never come back out again."
So the fact that you're still here and trying to heal amazes me to no end. And it's why I admire SG so much.

I do want to answer your question about the losses, but it's going to take another megapost (thanks LL for asking for lengthy posts, but I don't really think it's a good idea to encourage me. ) and I didn't have much computer time tonight, hanging with the family. So my plan is to find some time this weekend to talk more about it.

SG, I am so glad that you found alot in there and I have more to say to you too! (((SG))))
And I really did understand what you said about holding off the triggers and it's a good thing. You're taking care of yourself and making sure you're safe.

Hi BB!!

I'll be back with more later.

AG

WARNING **** Possible Triggers ***********

quote:

I have heard this before. Can you explain what it is we missed that is irreplaceable?

Sorry it's taken me so long to come back to this; busy weekend (in a fun way; lots of family time) and I haven't had a long enough block of time to do this justice.

DR, as I've worked my way through therapy and uncovering the feelings I had buried so long, I uncovered the losses I had not been able to admit, let alone grieve. This is a very personal list. I expect that some of this will resonate with other people and some of it will be not true or seem unimportant. These are my losses and what I needed to mourn and I again offer the disclaimer that not everyone will need to do this the way I did. And I am sorry if I caused you pain hearing how I was able to walk through this with my T when you are dealing with what happened with yours. As I mentioned before, I think the people who have had disruptions where their Ts abandoned them and yet are still here, still trying to heal, are deserving of so much respect. I'm not sure I would have been strong enough.

As I uncovered my feelings, I came to realize that their were losses in my childhood that nothing could change. Nothing that anyone could provide would make the loss, and the pain associated with it, go away. I'm going to give some examples below and in some cases how I came to the realization, hoping this illuminates the subject.

I'm going to start with one that was very difficult to face because it hinged on my T having to hold a boundary he strongly believed in, in order for me to face my loss. That was the loss of safe, nurturing touch. One of the things I had to really grapple with was my sense of responsibility for the sexual abuse. I would move closer to my father because of the healthy desire for physical closeness and wanting to be held and be safe. And it would start that way, at least for me, but would lead to my boundaries being overrun and my being used for my father's needs, not mine. This manifested in my relationship with my T by my wanting a hug. That is such a bland description; what I wanted was for him to cross that unfathomable divide between our two chairs and hold me tightly while I cried my heart out. I wrestled with asking him about a hug for a long time (like a year and a half). We shake hands at the end of every session so their is physical contact which I find very important because on some level I used to believe I was so repulsive (more on that later). But there had never been anything beyond that. I finally got up the nerve to ask my T about getting a hug, at the beginning of the session, because I was pretty sure the answer would be no. And it was. A very gentle, caring no. My T felt that there was too much risk versus not enough potential benefit to a hug to risk it. He has an across the board policy about hugs with his patients, one of his few. (I agreed with his explanations when we discussed it and if you want to know more, I can go into it later.) And as difficult as it was, not getting a hug from him, turned out to be a good thing for me. Because NOT getting a hug from him, left me to face the pain of not getting a safe hug from my father. It was incredibly painful to let myself realize that I kept seeking out a safe embrace that was about my good, only to be betrayed again and again. When I was a child, I couldn't let myself remember that, because there was nowhere else to go. I had needs that had to be met and so I had to keep my father "good" so I couldn't admit his embrace was never safe. If you can't admit a loss, you can't grieve it. I can have safe embraces now from many people in my life (not my T unfortunately )but I will never have had that safe place in childhood which I deserved. A loss necessary to mourn. We returned to this issue a number of times, the most passionate being a session where I was railing at my T (translation: bordering on screaming) about his damn detachment and his boundaries, that I was in pain and I just didn't care and I didn't want to hear it was for my good. He asked me what I did want. And I told him that I wanted him to get out of his f***ing chair and come over and hold me and tell me everything would be alright. And he gently told me that it wouldn't help; the pain would still be there. To which I responded that sometimes I really wished he would just f***ing lie to me (have I mentioned my language gets REALLY bad when I'm upset. Sorry no offense meant.) It felt really good to just let that burst out; I had been wanting to say it for so long. He was incredibly understanding about it and why I would feel that way and how I had every right to be that angry about it. His meeting me with understanding created a safe place to mourn it.

Another loss was the right to feel special and cherished. The truth is that every child has a right when very young to feel like they are incredibly important and special and cherished. That the universe DOES revolve around them. That someone is totally focused on us and our needs and meeting them. I hated my Ts boundaries and struggled with him having other clients because I wanted him to myself. If I couldn't have him to myself, I at least wanted to be special and more important to him than his other clients. But the hard truth is that I'm not (or if I am I'll never know that from him). I told him that I had to face that while our relationship is very deep and very real (both of which I wholeheartedly believe) he did not offer me anything different from what he would offer to anyone who came through his door. Not being able to be special to him made me realize the loss of not having that as a child. That being the center of the universe without having to attend to the other's needs is the behavior of a child and not appropriate for an adult relationship. Therapy is as close as we can come in that the relationship is focused solely on our needs BUT the specialness and concentration isn't there. We don't get them 24/7. So I can't have that. Another loss I mourned. Again my T was able to hear my feelings and confirm how appropriate they were. (Funny aside: when we discussed this he talked about the fact that everyone had to eventually face moving away from their family and the fact that they're not quite as special to other people. So I very ruefully asked him if I had busted my butt just so I could have NORMAL problems? We both got a good laugh out of that one.)

Another loss I grappled with was wanting someone to come and stop the abuse. I got so angry at my T at times, and hated him, for not making it not have happened. If he really cared, he would be able to reach back through time and make the abuse not have happened right? Realizing I felt that way made me remember how badly I wanted my mother to see what was going on and make it stop. That never happened. Basically the abuse stopped because my parents divorced and my dad disappeared out of my life. The cessation was a side affect, albeit a good one, of my abandonment by my father. No one can go back in time and change the fact that no one ever saved me from the abuse. Another loss to mourn.

Living in fear. That was a biggie. At some point during therapy, I finally came to realize that I had ALWAYS lived in fear. Fear of hurt, fear of abandonment, fear of closeness, you name it. No matter what I was doing, or feeling, or experiencing, it happened in an atmosphere of fear. When I realized that, I looked at my T and said, it's sounds crazy but I think I'm scared not to be scared. I'm not sure who I'll be without the fear. He told me I deserved to find out. As I thought back through my life, I realized that so many major decisions had been based on the fear of being injured or hurt or moving too close. If I had not experienced that level of fear, what would those decisions had been? How differently would my life have turned out if I had NOT been scared? When my T and I talked about it, I told him that this was a really difficult loss, because there was no way to know WHAT I had lost. That maybe my life would have turned out the same way but I couldn't know that. He told me I couldn't but at the least, I wouldn't have had to have been so scared all the time. So I grieved for what might have been and even the knowledge that I couldn't know what I was mourning for.

Another biggie was my sense of attractiveness. One of the worst memories I dug up was finally remembering that I had NEVER felt attractive because my father told me I wasn't, that there was never any hope of my being attractive so he could convince me I had nowhere else to ever go to get even the poor semblance of love and care and affection he gave me. I have healed enough that I can now see myself as attractive in some ways, but I lost so many years of not believing it or even believing it was OK to want to be attractive or take pride in my good qualities. And it was incredibly painful to realize that it was something my father took away from me instead of enforcing it the way a father should.

There are a lot more but I think that's a enough of a sampling to show you what I mean, and I think I've dragged you through enough of my griefs. I am so very very grateful that my T stayed with me through all of this and could hear how I was feeling about him in such a way that I could follow the trail of my feelings back to these losses. As I have allowed myself to realize and admit and mourn these losses, I have been able to heal from them. There are scars and I will always carry these losses, but they have lost their power over me. I am no longer trying to get these things which are now impossible to get. It's the most difficult thing I've ever faced and I would blame absolutely NO ONE for not wanting to go through it. And honestly, I don't believe I could have faced it without my highly skilled therapist and the support of both the folks here and some very cherished friends. The pain got so bad at times I didn't think I could bear it, but I did and found out there was far side to despair and that the grief and loss wouldn't destroy me. And it was worth it. I would do it over again (although I am infinitely grateful I don't have to.)

I hope this makes sense and helps. If you have any questions or want clarification, please feel free to ask. The process was long and confusing and sometimes it's difficult to articulate.

AG

AG,

Thank you for “dragging me through your grief.” I can see why it has taken years and a gonzo amount of work to get to the place you are at. I am not only amazed at your courage to heal but at the strength it took to see, feel and admit to your T what it was you needed. I am too often only willing to take what is offered and not ask for what I need. By your own admission, what your T did for you turned out to be a good thing even though other’s have found healing through the ‘safe touch’ approach. I can see how either way could be beneficial.

Little by little I am coming to an understanding of how vital it is to know what it was we needed as children to grow up healthy and functional in society and to admit what was missing from our own childhood. You are right, if we cannot admit a loss, we cannot grieve it. I will never forget the day early in therapy when my ex-T asked me what did I deserve to get from my parents. The question had me stumped. I repeated her words several times to myself before I could give an answer. When I did, all I could say were three things that came to mind: food, shelter, and education. I could not think there was anything else they should have provided. I guess in my mind the provision of nurture, care, love, affection, and the like were provided to children by choice. The denial was deep. If I didn’t it was not required then I did not need it. If I did not need it and I did not get it then there was nothing to grieve. It’s embarrassing to now admit. I never attributed my worth to what I deserved to receive as a child. I did not even think about the fact that I had raised children and gave them all the love, attention and nurturing I could muster on top of what the law ‘required’ of me. It has helped me immensely to realize that our worth and value is innate that is God-given. Even if one does not believe in God, the creator, we have the knowledge that human beings are the most valuable of creatures on earth and is why we innately know we deserved to be treated better than we were. If we did not think this then we would not be so angry or depressed.

quote:

The truth is that every child has a right when very young to feel like they are incredibly important and special and cherished. That the universe DOES revolve around them. That someone is totally focused on us and our needs and meeting them.

I don’t know what it is about this that took me so long to understand. I think I feared the accusation that I still expect other people to attend to my needs that I would quickly take the stance “I can take care of myself thank you very much” before anyone could find me guilty . In my childhood, the universe revolved around the emotional needs of my mother and the abhorrent sexual needs of my father. Neither of them had their needs met in childhood and did not learn how to grow out of those needs to be able to attend to the needs of their children. As a result, my needs were either neglected or abused. Thankfully, I am beginning to see the provisions of some of my needs through others who were strategically placed along my childhood journey. How else would I be willing to look at the past and seek relentlessly to heal from it? Expressing gratitude for those people has helped assuage some of the grief in what I did not get from my parents and may also be helping me slowly reconnect to God.

Unlike you, AG, I am far from naming and grieving all that happened to me while growing up or of repenting of the sordid ways I sought to get my needs met. With that in mind, I am going to go out on a limb and say that I think it is possible to give myself what my parents failed to give me. I believe that one day I will internalize love and affection and use them to re-parent myself. One day I will be able to look in the mirror and like what I see. I will stop believing the script written by my parents that told me I am stupid and will never amount to doing anything good. One day I will refuse to take the blame for what happened and I will not shy away from leaving the blame on whomever it belongs. At the very end, I will be able to see that what I learned in hell is what prepared me for heaven. Though I may not be all that I could have been had I not been wounded so young, I have been spared what I would have been. It is these beliefs and that the pain will be worth it in the end that keep me from giving up. I already doubt I will recognize myself when I get to 'the end' and look back at where I started on this healing path.

AG, all you shared made perfect sense and I am glad you have such a strong and steady guide to walk through it with you. Thank you again for sharing your journey. It is tremendously helpful.

deeplyrooted

Hi DR,
I'm so very glad you found it helpful. It was cathartic on some level to write as it made me realize how far and through what I had come. And it made me want to send flowers to my T. Probably a boundary violation though...

quote:

I am too often only willing to take what is offered and not ask for what I need.

Trust me, I understand that! The struggle to actually be able to express what I needed was a long uphill one. My T told me a number of times in the beginning of our work together that I was not willing to express a need unless I was positive it would be met. I didn't even understand what he meant for the longest time. When I finally connected it was over the hug issue. It took me so long to ask because at that point I knew my T well enough to know that I was more than likely going to hear a no and I needed to be in a place where I could handle that. As I struggled with the issue, I realized that I had promised myself a long time ago NEVER to ask for what I needed because I wasn't going to put myself in a position to hear no, be hurt again and experience my worthlessness. My T worked really long and hard to show me that asking for my needs was nothing to be ashamed of and hearing a no didn't have anything to do with my worth. And that I could survive that. Such an important part of hearing the no from him about the hug was both in surviving it--hearing no didn't destroy me-- and in experiencing that the relationship was intact, still caring, warm and empathetic. Actually I was even able to experience the no as coming FROM a place a caring. It was a pivotal moment in our therapy. But it took a whole lot of baby steps to get there and a lot of patience on my Ts part.

quote:

By your own admission, what your T did for you turned out to be a good thing even though other’s have found healing through the ‘safe touch’ approach. I can see how either way could be beneficial.

Thank you SO much for saying this. It's what I mean when I say my healing path is mine and not necessarily what someone else's looks like. I know so many people on this site who have experienced a lot of positive outcomes in getting hugs or other forms of nurturing touch from their Ts and I don't want to come across as dismissing or denying that. One of the reasons I think my T was right for me is that in my case, I think this was the right call. Interestingly enough, my first T did hug me when I wanted and I found that very healing also.

quote:

With that in mind, I am going to go out on a limb and say that I think it is possible to give myself what my parents failed to give me. I believe that one day I will internalize love and affection and use them to re-parent myself. One day I will be able to look in the mirror and like what I see. I will stop believing the script written by my parents that told me I am stupid and will never amount to doing anything good. One day I will refuse to take the blame for what happened and I will not shy away from leaving the blame on whomever it belongs. At the very end, I will be able to see that what I learned in hell is what prepared me for heaven. Though I may not be all that I could have been had I not been wounded so young, I have been spared what I would have been. It is these beliefs and that the pain will be worth it in the end that keep me from giving up. I already doubt I will recognize myself when I get to 'the end' and look back at where I started on this healing path.

DR this was so beautifully expressed and perfectly put. That describes so eloquently what the healing has been like for me, and I KNOW that you will get there. You're strength and determination will carry you, both to the right therapist and through to your healing. I look forward to watching it unfold.

(((((DR))))))

AG

Hey Strummergirl. I've been following your thread(s), and formulating responses, but have been two overwhelmed to actual post anything until now. Your "story" hits close to home with me. I'm also really struggling with grief over a past relationship, missing ex-P, ending my marriage (okay, yours isn't ending, which is awesome, btw).

So my "new T" sent me this article and I thought I'd pass it on to you and see if you might find it helpful. She meant for it to be a useful tool in understanding my transference/love for ex-P, but I'm also seeing a lot of went went wrong/on in my marriage in it. Hope it's useful for you and/or others.

Shadow boxing: Wrestling with Romantic Partners

{{{{{{{Echo}}}}}}}

I'm sorry to see we have so much in common, Echo And I wouldn't be too quick to say my marriage isn't ending, the jury's still out on that, yet. But it sounds like you ARE there, and I'm really sorry about that. You've got a lot of pain to bear up under right now. I was glad to hear in another thread you posted about asking for and receiving support from friends...I hope that continues, and of course you always have friends here to support you, too, if you ever need to vent or share what is going on.

Thanks for the link! You know what is really a weird coincidence...I have a picture of Eros and Psyche as my desktop picture.

I just skimmed through the article and it sounds fascinating...but it's a long one...I will have to read it more carefully later when the kiddos are in bed and I can concentrate. The last couple of paragraphs really whet my appetite because there is so much symbolism here that I could translate directly to my experience.

I know a little of your story from your sharing here about your ex-P, but I would really like to know overall how this myth of Eros and Psyche has played out in your own experience, but only if it helps to talk about it...and I totally understand if you don't want to. I might post more later, though, after I read the article more carefully. Thanks, Echo, I appreciate this.

Hugs,
SG