Hi IHTS.

I think we've discussed before that I was once in a similar relationship to the one you had with your old t... that being said, I want you know that I understand how much and how deeply you truly do miss her... ((((IHTS))))

As for your question, yes I do think my t and I are both 'real' with one another most of the time. I define being real as being authentic and in the moment... trusting as much as possible and having few expectations for the other person. While I struggle with some of these characteristics from time to time, I think it's important for me to try... I think part of this process is my t teaching me how to be real with another person, without the mind games and lies and manipulation. I really don't think she could teach me any of this if she weren't being herself. Don't get me wrong, she's limited, and boundaried and all that, but she is NOT fake or pretentious. She is very open...

I guess part of me knows she's being real because she thinks in our sessions... she doesn't have some prescribed answer or whatever for my questions... sometimes she'll tell me she doesn't know something or that she'll have to think about it... and what really tells me she's being real is that she's willing to cause pain to me in the short term because it's in by best interest in the long term. A person who wasn't being real with me would not sit with me in that pain until I'm okay to move forward. She respects my feelings and my thoughts, even when I don't.

And, more recently, I think my t is being real because she loses her patience and gets frustrated... I don't think that she would care enough to get frustrated if she was very removed from the relationship.

Well, I hope some of this helps. If nothing else, ((((((IHTS))))))

-CT

IHTS - I’m sorry you are still missing your T. It sounds like the gap between your Ts protestations of truth and integrity and her actual behaviour was a pretty big one.

I’d like to say that the various Ts I’ve had have been honest and acting in accord with inner integrity, but I really don’t know. Some of them I have to think were playing control games others just didn’t know what they were doing. The only thing I DO know is that I have always been up front in therapy - excessively so, and that seems to have screwed up quite a lot of my therapy. Not sure if I have integrity - I like to think I have, in that my integrity revolves around being consistent in what’s wrong with me (lol if that makes any sense!) I’m beginning to think I need to start learning how to manipulate in therapy to get what I need rather than being open about it.

I have to say I don’t like a T to be ‘real’ in the sense of bringing their own emotional reactions into the therapy - that totally freaks me out - I can’t handle experiencing myself as negatively affecting a therapist I really need them to stay calm and in control of themselves.

ITHS I hope you are doing ok?

Lamplighter

Once I asked my therapist "I would like to know YOU" and he replied "You do know me".

If I am real - that's difficult to say. Sometimes I don't know what I am and who I am and what I am really like.

IHTS,

I don't know if this is any help, but my T rarely references himself, and if he does it's only in the context of my experience of it. For example, if he does something that pisses me off and I tell him, he might say something like, "what was it about what I said that made you angry?" and that will be material for analysis.

He's never, ever told me anything about his personal beliefs or convictions, any proclamations about him being this kind of person or that kind of person, or any details about his life. I know nothing about the man, and I've been seeing him 3 times a week for 2 years.

This all very deliberate. I think he feels that to bring his own personal beliefs or convictions or ideas about himself into the relationship that it would just muddy the waters for me. And by having this position, I know that he's as real as it gets.

Like CT's T, my T is very much about being "real," which I think is just another way of saying "honest." And also like CT's T, my guy is totally - and often painfully - honest.

There is absolutely no bullshit from him ever, which is why I sometimes call him "Mr. Bad News" because I often hate what he has to say...because the truth hurts.

quote:

I am realizing that sometimes maybe we just kid ourselves about how real we are.

In terms of us as clients, this is us being 100% human. I bullshit myself ALL THE TIME, and I'm just now starting to be able to catch myself doing it. We have ideas about what we should feel, or be, or do, or whatever, and we want these things so badly that we end up lying to ourselves about it. But again, that's human, it's not a defect. A perfect example from yesterday:

Me: I don't give a damn what people think.
Me a second later: Yeah, right.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
I have to say I don’t like a T to be ‘real’ in the sense of bringing their own emotional reactions into the therapy - that totally freaks me out - I can’t handle experiencing myself as negatively affecting a therapist I really need them to stay calm and in control of themselves.

+10000000

Russ

BB,

Nice to hear from you! Things are progressing, if ever so slowly and often seemingly imperceptibly.

For me, the real/honesty thing means talking openly about truly difficult thoughts, ideas, emotions. I'm just now starting to be able to do this. And what I mean by difficult are things that neither I nor society would consider normal or healthy, when the truth is, we all have them, regardless of whether or not we're conscious of them.

For example, being so angry at someone that you wish they'd die in a truly horrible, violent way. Or that you yourself could do something horrendous to them. Of course, we're just talking about a thought, not any kind of intention. There's a HUGE leap between the two.

But, to have such a thought is generally considered "bad," right? Not in therapy. In therapy, it's just a thought. It just IS. The same way an earthquake just is. Is an earthquake in and of itself bad? No, it's the earth doing what the earth has done forever. It's neither "bad" nor "good." But it becomes "bad" when it's destructive to people, and at that time it's judged to be "bad."

But, it's very difficult to believe or accept that unacceptable thoughts are normal because we've been conditioned to believe otherwise.

Geez, I feel like I've hijacked IHTS's thread. I'll stop blathering now.

Russ

Awesome discussion. Thank you for adding to my understanding and helping me with this "bullshit" thing that I do to myself. Incremental. Great word Russ.......that is how change happens, and maybe that is how real change (growth) happens.

I recognize in my thoughts sometimes, even in the middle of what I'm saying to my P that I'm talking fluff (a.k.a bullshit). I know it but sometimes can't seem to stop and be real with her. I also get kind of embarrassed when I read some posts I've made on this site....because going back later I see how phoney and superficial I was... Ahh. It's so hard to do the hard work and talk about the hard stuff! In my old days, I used actions instead of words and that got me into extreme trouble.

I just wonder how much of what I'm thinking even tonight as I sit here and relax after work is my false self crap and how much is honestly me? What am I hiding from right now or fooling me about? I'm going to try to keep watching and listening from my observing adult self....maybe that's how I'll slowly become more aware.

IHTS

This is a very interesting discussion. I think that what makes therapy (good therapy, that is) so unique is exactly what Russ said - that everything in therapy just is. It's something that I constantly have to remind myself of.

quote:

I recognize in my thoughts sometimes, even in the middle of what I'm saying to my P that I'm talking fluff (a.k.a bullshit). I know it but sometimes can't seem to stop and be real with her.

Ah, fluffy bullshit. I'm very familiar with it. I was very aware of the fluff pouring out of my mouth at various points in my last session, and it really is hard to stop. I think it may have seemed like I was countering anything my T said with a ridiculous excuse. I rarely say anything that I don't feel very sure about, so when I'm saying it and know it's crap, it definitely makes me wonder if I'm fooling myself all of the time. And, honestly, I think I am. But IHTS, I think that having the knowledge that you might be fooling yourself is much better than not even suspecting. At least, that's what I try to convince myself of.