Welcome to the forum Kansas

I guess that she hurt you really bad. That´s why you don´t want to go back. You are not stubborn, you are just trying to protect yourself from beeing hurt. Maybe you have been hurt many times before.

Avoiding being hurt is a normal reaction. But not always helpful.

What did your T say when you told her that you wanted friendship after therapy? How did she react? Did she say something about attachment?

I know that some therapists welcome attachment and are trained to work with the person through attachment, not as friends after therapy, but in the therapy process. And then the person can heal from the process. It is scary, I know, It is really scary to truly trust in someone. And you will probably get hurt many times. But if dealt with the right way you will overcome your fears and heal your wounds.

But some therapists do not believe in attachment. They do not know how to handle it and get freaked out if a patient does attach to them. They have some different believes.

My advice to you is to find out if your T is trained to deal with attachment... yes, that means you have to face your fears and go back to see her
If she believes in attachment, I say keep up the good work girl!!!

But if she says something like; you have to be more independent, or that it is not normal for you to attach to her like that. Then maybe this T is not the right one for you.

You say you don´t know where to turn to. This forum is of course not therapy, solely. But for me talking to the people here has helped a lot. I´ve got many good advice, from many great people. It also helps to see that other people are moving forward in the healing journey that therapy really is.

Wish you the best in your journey
-Little Me

Hi Kansas,

I'm curious to know how the conversation went with your T? How did she respond? What did she say? Did she leave her door open?

((((KANSAS)))))

Liese

Liese,

When I told T I wanted to exit therapy she agreeded. We spent time talking about how well I was doing. At the end of one session she ask what I wanted to talk about next time and I told her "us". I felt we had more in common than just therapy.

Next sessions she started out by saying I wanted to talk about us. She felt we had a connection also ... then she ask in my mind what did I expect? I told her I did not know, but to go slowly and see how things progressed. We talked about our common interest. She did state she did not think she would make a very good friend.

We spent a total of 6 hour sessions talking about "us" and then the last session when I was walking out I said "I do not know where we stand?" She either did not comment or I think she said "neither do I".

I would like your opinion. There is more to the session but nothing that should have affected her answer.

Little Me,

I was hurt because T would not give me an answer. I had told her I would respect her decision, but she left it so there was no closure. I was in a hurry to leave as I knew she had another patient and things were just not right.

I do not know what to do next, but I do not want to go back and "pay" for friendship (that's not right! )

Hi Kansas,

If the only reason you are going back is because of friendship, then maybe you should find another T for the time being. I don't know what the rules of ethics say about friendships but some, if not most, of the states, allow therapist and patient to have a romantic relationship after two years has elapsed from the end of the therapeutic relationship. I don't know why it would be any different for a friendship. Maybe you could wait the two years and then see what happens then?

Why wouldn't she make a very good friend? Did she say?

6 hours is a good amount of time to spend on the issue but it doesn't sound like you are resolved about it at all. You might be putting her in a difficult situation if you tried to initiate a friendship now. And that is, they say, the true measure of loving someone. Wanting the best for them.

I can relate because I fell for my T and it is a difficult spot to be in: loving him and knowing that our relationship is limited. I've thought about leaving and finding another T but my gut feeling is it's better to stay with him and work through the feelings. If I went to another T, we'd probably spend a year on my feelings for my current T and it seems like it would create more problems than it is worth.

With or without my T, I still have a lot of work to do on my life. I don't think I've ever had a great relationship with any partner so it's nothing new to me to be in a limited relationship with my T, knowing I can't have more. I'm able to have more with my H, though I don't want it. It's the complexity of my life right now and one that I have to live with because I'm not perfect and my life isn't perfect. I do hope one day that I can have a partner that I will be able to share my whole life with and his whole life with and not just this one part, 90 minutes a week.

My life before T was terrible and I didn't want to live. I'm not ready for a full partnership right now anyway. And, so, it is working for me.

What is your T's orientation?

Maybe what you want from T or think you want from T isn't really what you need. Like she said, she wouldn't make a good friend. You probably get more from her in the therapy room than you would IRL. Maybe in time, you will see that what she does offer you is actually far better than anything she could ever offer you IRL. That's what I'm hoping for me anyway.

Maybe instead of seeing it as paying for friendship you can try to see it as her helping you ease the pain of what you didn't get in childhood. If you leave her, you will have nothing. You still won't have her. But if you go back, maybe eventually the pain will lessen and you will heal.

The attachment feelings really hurt. I've spent many hours crying myself. But I'm starting to come out on the other side and there is a light at the end of the tunnel. It's all a part of the process. If you left her, the hurt you would experience would just be added to all your current pain and it would set you back even more. You'd have to go through this again in order to heal and that would really stink!

You know that you have a wonderful connection with your T. Sometimes, a lot of times, people IRL spend time with people they don't have a connection to. Maybe you can come to cherish the wonderful connection you do have with her? And take that connection with you, wherever you go.

Liese

Liese,

We are two women close in age with many common interest.

I wish T could just tell me one way or the other ... I feel I'm left dangling.(IMO) I've told her I would respect her choice, but T did not make a clear choice.(IMHO) She said "how does the song go 'Happy trails to you'..." I finished with "Until we meet Again".

Does that song say "goodbye"? Did I miss T's point?

H & BF said T was letting me down gently If so I feel dumb!

(((KANSAS)))))

Did she disclose a lot about herself? Were your sessions really chatty? If so, she may have been getting some of her needs met through your relationship with her and may not be the right T to help you get to where you need to go.

It's hard to interpret what she meant without coming out and really asking her. It sounds like goodbye but who is to say?

Maybe she doesn't have time for a friendship outside of therapy?

As much as I desire a relationship with my T, sometimes when I think of the logistics of it, I wonder how it would work. I don't know anyone in his life. He doesn't know anyone in mine. What would we do? Go to the movies? Go out to dinner?

((((HUGS)))))

Liese

Liese,

First let me say you are so sweet to keep posting to me. Now that I'm not in therapy I need to vent/explain my concerns.

My T is what I call a 'free spirit', yes she did talk about her family, but nothing where I felt she was getting needs met. I know she is married has children not positive how many. She never mentioned names etc., I did not ask. It was more of a these are some things to know about my family or this is something I made. Just the getting to know you (I thought that was what it was) type talk.

Thanks for the HUGS, I send many back to you (((HUGS))).

kansas

Kansas,

Don't you hate it when our Ts are vague and not clear about things?! Sorry you are left with this lingering confusion about whether or not you and your T will be friends now that you have terminated.

My suggestion is to contact her and ask her direct questions. "Do you want to be friends with me?" "Do you think we can be friends?" and if she says yes, ask her "what does a friendship with me look like to you?"

Also, I wanted to add that I think her comment that she wouldn't make a very good friend is worth exploring. I would ask her what she means by that. You might find out more about where she stands in terms of a friendship by exploring that comment.

LadyGrey,

Yep, I hate the vagueness and especially since I've exited therapy.

I want to contact T, but I'm not sure I'm ready or it is right ...T will want me to come back and I just do not want to see this T until I'm more steady. She has my email, but I have blocked her from my phone for awhile ...doubt T has tried to call!

I told T whether she would make a good friend was not all her decision. I said we should go very slow ... meaning if there was no feelings of friendship after therapy then we we could could just fade away, but knowing T had helped me and feelings would not be hurt. I know it sounds funny but some friends just fade away but they are always dear to me.

Hi Kansas,
In my state, if a T has friendship or romantic contact with a patient outside of therapy it is grounds for suspension of their license. You might try researching the laws in your state and this would give you information that would shed light on your situation.

T & I talked extensively about ethics and there was no problem and I read the ethics code also. It is to protect the client/patient since T knows so much abot me. I was very clear I did not care how much T knew about me and I did not need to know any more than T wanted to tell me. I just wanted to enjoy her friendship after therapy.

The sex issue is not considered; this is a friendship issue. Enjoying talking (shooting the breeze), hobbies (we enjoy the same and similar hobbies)and lectures etc.

kansas

Hi Kansas, I have just read this thread and don't really know if there is anything helpful I can add. I do know that your relationship to your now ex T was founded on you being a client, which means that consciously or unconsciously from your end, you were being met with unconditional regard, empathy, listening, kindness etc. She was there FOR YOU. A friendship is different. (I know I am stating the obvious here, but it still needs making, for each of us here I think.) When she said she did not think she would make a good friend, maybe she was hinting that you would not find her so one sided, being there FOR YOU all the time, she might be saying that she would expect a reciprocal listening and empathy. Now that can feel very intoxicating and seductive, as an ex client ("My t wants to talk to ME! My T wants to lean on ME!") but actually it is because we are so vulnerable to LIKING that idea, that the guidelines were set up so that T's cannot accidentally abuse the situation and get into a friendship with a client when the original foundations were that the T is THERE for the client and listens TO the client and the fact that the client can be flattered to have the T want to unburden or lean on us, makes it very open to accidental unintentioned abuse.

And I think it also has something to do with the T's knowing that they CANNOT become friends with a client otherwise each client could accidentally and unconsciously be viewed as potential friend.

So that is why there is this two year gap. From the last session where one was client.

That gives the client and therapist time to cool off. It could well be that your reasons for wanting to be the T's friend, are actual stuff you would be benefited from working on in therapy, and she would just have played right into that, without addressing it.

I am sorry if I am stating the obvious and you are thinking: "Sadly - I KNOW all this." I just thought I would risk pointing it out and hopefully not offend you.

FWIW (for what it's worth) I would be a little perturbed if she started a friendship with you without allowing the two year cooling off period. Technically the 'correct' thing to do at this point, is to allow you two options:
1. to work on this desire to be her friend, in the therapeutic relationship, in her office, as her client.
2. End the therapy recognizing that you need to do this, but keep to the professional boundaries and guidelines and have no none therapeutic contact with you for two years.

The rules are there because of the messes and pain and upset to the client when they have been broken.

Sadly,

You are right, but you had to know T suggested there was the possibility of a friendship, we both agreed the ethics were in our case not applicable.

Something happened in our last session and I cannot pin point it. If I could I could have closure.

kansas

quote:

You are right, but you had to know T suggested there was the possibility of a friendship, we both agreed the ethics were in our case not applicable.

Hi Kansas, nice to meet you.

I've been reading here and before I reply can you tell me why you decided that the ethics rules do not apply to you and your T??

Have to run to make lunch now but I'll be back later.

TN

I cannot speak for T, but during a session ethics was talked about. How our state rulings are written on therapy was one of our topics. IMHO I know ethics are there for a reason, but not always for the right reason (our states and government often set rules to cover their butt and with little thought for the people they represent), T agreed at that time. In some ethics; it even states seeing each other outside therapy can be accepted if for the right reason. An example given was having lunch with a person with an eating disorder. I think seeing each other at lectures or taking clases together etc. is acceptable. This is away of staying in touch and seeing how I'm doing w/o therapy. (I'm not asking to go home and bake cookies with T. ). Just a see if works friendship.

There is no excuse for sex inside or outside of with T.

Echo,

Thank you for your knowledge. I guess that is why when T ask me what I expected from a friendship I said I did not know, but I knew we needed to go slow.

As for me a few emails and seeing x-T 3X's in 6 months would be fine.

I have a very close friend and T is very aware of this ... I just wanted to add another friend who was totally different.

I think I'm upset because I do not know if she was trying to say goodbye or is just waiting for some time to pass. I had blocked her phone ... I know "childish", but I left email open.

I have no clue what to do ... do I wait for her to email or text? Do I make the first move it has been a couple of weeks with no communication which is not the norm

kansas

((((ECHO)))

Wow. Thanks for sharing your story. It was very interesting. I'm sorry you couldn't go in for a cup of coffee. Just wondering how the friendship evolved after therapy? It sounds like you are grieving what you had with her? Had things just ended, you would always remember her the same way?

(((((KANSAS))))

You know what they say, you never know until you try. Why not reach out to her and see what happens? Ask her to meet you for a cup of coffee or something and if she says no, you will have your answer. Either way, you can move on from the limbo you are in.

Liese

Liese,

I thought a lot today about all the help you have given me.

Echo your post was enlightening also.

I decided to send T a funny link via email. I know she says it takes her time to respond (sometimes a few days), so I'll see what happens.

It does not help not knowing, I hate being sad.

Please stay in contact for a few days, I'll keep you posted. Rejection sucks!

kansas

I respected my therapist. In order for therapy to progress one needs to trust their T and it took time ... but I gave T my trust. I was always upfront and honest with T.

T always answered my questions and explained anything I did not understand. I did all the outside work and more than T ask.

When I exited therapy there was a process of questions and one question I ask was about our relationship and if T had only been upfront that's ALL I ask ... could there be a possible friendship. T could have said NO, but she would not say NO and said we would talk about it.

To make a long story short all the trust that was built up was shattered when I walked out without closure.

Everything you have said is true, but I just wanted closure and T did not give me that.

Hope this makes sense, it's late here and I do not mean to be rude ... guess I'm cranky late this evening!

kansas

((((((kansas))))))

It sounds like your T even saying no, she won't be friends with you, would be more ok with you than this vague not knowing.

Your T did do you a diservice to not talk to you about this more clearly and say yes or no either way more.

Perhaps your T is open to a friendship, but yet is conflicted about it, or isn't open to a friendship, and yet is not wanting to tell you because she doesn't want to hurt your feelings or something... and yet it seems clear she has hurt you by not telling you. Maybe she is not clear about it for herself right now?

I have a friend that is also a T as her job, but isn't my T. Honestly, I find friendship with her to be very difficult. We have tons in common and love to do things together, and yet it is terribly hard to stay friends. She can easily start to slip into that role, and I instantly will push back, and tell her to take her T hat off... but yet sometimes, I also slip more into the client role again too - and this is with a friend who has never been my T, she only has a job as one for others. Your T might want to be friends with you, but maybe she isn't sure she can be your friend, and not your T anymore. Friendships are two way relationships, and T - client relationships are usually not two ways, at least not much. We certainly shouldn't be having our therapy sessions about our T's life and problems. But in friendships, I do know about my friends lives and sometimes their problems.

Your T might not feel like she can be in the role of a friend, even though she wants to be.

I'm so sorry she isn't being more clear about what she is and is not ok with and what she can and can not do... she does need to tell you that... I'm so sorry you are going through this.

jane

quote:

It sounds like your T even saying no, she won't be friends with you, would be more ok with you than this vague not knowing.

janedoe, you are soooo right! I think I will use your expression to T ... that she needs to take her T hat off...when answering question about friendship.


Echo

quote:

why you blocked her on your phone?Do you not want to speak to her? are you trying to make a point to her about something? im just trying to work out why you would be doing that and what you would be gaining from it....its like you want the friendship, but actually you are pushing her away....testing her maybe? .
maybe im wrong and in which case i will apologise .ohhh or is it that you are scared of hearing the answer if its negative?? but then if you have left email open, then thats not so....so can i ask why have you blocked her phone? im really interested.

Echo you are so wise I blocked for the above reasons plus because I was so let down that there was no closure. I also test T and she is aware I do that!

You will be happy to know about 2 hours before I read your post I unblocked her # from my phone.

Muff,thank you for ALL your input. T & I respect each other, sometimes I think we are trying to hard to not hurt each other...but with friends sometimes you mess up, the neat thing is if it is a good friendship you are able to say

quote:

I messed up

and go on. I have a friend and we have never been to proud to say we messed up and we have been through a lot together.

Echo, I sent T a text this morning and ask where we stood.

kansas

Liese ,

I sent a text to x-T tonight (I was not a happy camper ).

I received a text back. X-T is to call tomorrow, but I think I've given up .

kansas

echo,

I have spoken to X-T and I'm doing well.

kansas

It did not work out. I'm sad, but I'm healthy.

kansas

I just wanted to offer my support as well. I hope you are doing OK today as well!

(((((KANSAS)))))



Liese

Kansas,
I've followed your thread and hope that you are continuing to do okay.

Sorry to hear it didn't work out. I'm glad to hear that you are healthy though!

I've been wondering what happened with your situation.
My T and I have developed a friendship like relationship during sessions. I know a ton about her life (her past and present). It started getting weird. Then, I ran into her outside of session (she told me where she hangs out) and our boundaries got a bit fuzzy at that moment, but since then she hasn't said much about herself in session and has turned it back into it being about me. Her behavior was odd outside session and it sort of freaked me out. She was having a couple of drinks and telling me all about her horrible day. Then, she saw someone she knew and asked him WTF was up. I was taken back by her words and seeing her in that capacity. Strange...
Before that incident I was thinking how cool it would be for me and T to be friends (we have a lot community interests in common).

Friendship and T's just don't work out, I guess.

Thank you! This whole thread really helped me understand my awful situation with my two previous therapists. I really wanted to be their friends. They always told me no way and I was highly hurt/insulted.

I have a new male "therapist" who knew what I had been through. I've gotten a beer with him and met his significant other etc.. I guess we say he's a business coach for instead of a T.

I was never comfortable with the boundaries of psychotherapy. I felt they were dehumanizing to the patient. I kind of get them now better that you don't ever want your mom to stop being your mom even when you are an adult. Anyway I am very satisfied with our chill/casual relationship.

Group hug for Echo, Liese, number9, Autumn, Athenacus, Laura K

You are my page 3 "pity party" ... I needed your warm thoughts and careing.

It has been very hard, I cried for days ... it was like loosing a best friend. I'm now going through anger, then I will accept the fact the fact it did not work into a friendship. My final step will be to forgive ... going to need sometime on this one!

I will always be grateful for what T taught me and how I am happier and more healthy in mind and spirit than I have been for years. I smile a lot at my accomplishments!

I guess I can say this therapist walked in and out of my life and left footprint on my heart.

kansas

Echo,

Since you have had a similar experience (but with somewhat better results)... you know it can be trying.

Thank you for the multiple 's they were needed!

kansas