I don't think it's petty at all. It seems like you have a really strict T, there! On the other hand, is your hour all about you? My T has a more relaxed approach, but that means that naturally some of the therapy ends up being about him, I suspect. But that approach seems to work well for some reason, in my case, since a more strict approach I think would provoke a paralyzing transference thingy. It's all so personal and subjective when it comes to the smaller things- I think? I guess the question you are asking is, if his personal style is working for you...you could ask yourself some basic questions like, have you met any of your therapy goals, do you like him/work well with him overall, etc...anyway-seems like all of this is a pretty good thing to talk about in therapy with your T, methinks!

Good luck- I think talking about it here with others is always helpful for stuff like this.

take care,

BB

quote:

since a more strict approach I think would provoke a paralyzing transference thingy

bb, you crack me up!

i agree with bb - if it works, don't fix it. part of me thinks, though, that if it concerns you enough to post it here, then maybe it's more of an issue for you than you're admitting? just saying ... and if that's the case it's totally cool. something to think about.

Hi Quell,

Wow, he is really strict. I'm confused about the safety things. Taking defenses away from me would make me feel LESS safe and more exposed. And I agree with the others about the paralyzing nature of it all. It would make me feel like there are all these rigid boundaries or rules, still unsaid and undiscovered for now until some future time when you might accidentally trip over one. And wanting to be the good girl, I wouldn't move at all in fear of tripping over one.

I would feel the same way you do about his evasiveness, that it had something to do with me. And then humiliated, yes, because I didn't pick up on the message.

If it makes you feel any better at all, I have read that there are many many things in life that are ambiguous and that the people who do better in life, don't read negative things into the gray areas.

However, if you're like me and actually missed the negative cues when I should have picked them up, I'm not sure it would help me right now to ignore the ambiguous situations in life.

I think it was great that you could have such an open and honest discussion with your T. Maybe you will be able to accept that this is about him and not you.

But I also agree with you about the warmth thing. I needed the warmth too. Is there any way you could talk to him about that? All the literature says that people with CPTSD (don't know what your diagnosis is) need to be treated warmly, genuinely, etc. etc.

All in all, it sounds like you have a nice relationship with him and that these open and honest discussions can only help you feel more at ease, hopefully.

Do you think these things are such a big issue for you that you can't continue to work with him?

Liese

Thanks for your thoughts, BB, CD, and Liese!

I feel better about the whole thing today. It helped just to write about it.

I've had struggles with my T on and off periodically, and I've wanted to quit with him, but not enough to really walk away. It seems very hard to end it with him. I know I'm not the only one who has struggled with staying or going.

T and I have talked about me wanting to quit before, and we talked about it again recently. It's hard, but I'm glad that we have been able to talk about it. And today I'm glad that we did have a talk about boundaries.

Next time we meet I can ask him about what his other boundaries are and ask him to help me understand the safety thing. Maybe the safety aspect will start to feel good to me, even with my shoes on!

Quell

hey Quell, glad you're feeling better about things. it really does help to write and talk about things. i think struggles are pretty common in therapy ... at least i know they are for me. going back and forth wondering if i should stick it out or run away. it can be pretty mind-gamey. yeah, the thought of ending with my T is nearly enough to put me into a panic attack which is exactly why i fought the whole attachment thing for more than a year. you're talking about these things with him and that is exactly what you need to be doing. very healthy and grown up. all Ts are different, and as long as you connect and their boundaries don't feel too stringent or too light for YOU then it can work. i read about some getting hugs from their T ... i/we are not there, and i don't know if it's me or him or if it'll change in the future. he would definitely make a comment if i were to take my shoes off, but i think he would be okay with it. he offers a beverage nearly every time. just depends on their own individual preferences, i guess. and if we're uncertain or uncomfortable with them then it's up to us to raise the issue. you're doing exactly what you should be, so kudos to you. take care!

Hi Quell *wave*,
I really wanted to weigh in here because I recognize many of these dynamics from my own therapy.

quote:

One is that it makes me crazy when I pick up that he is uncomfortable about things and then he is evasive. I know that for me it feels like being a kid and not picking up on social cues and not realizing that I was supposed to "take a hint." And then I am ungently rejected, and also humiliated that I didn't “get it” earlier. It reminds me of that, and it makes me feel like I don’t trust him.

Yup. My T does the same thing. For example, I remember one incident in which I asked where she was going on vacation. (Oh, the naivete... that was so long ago, before I realized every utterance is fraught with meaning... I guess I imagined therapy would function kind of like 'dishing' with your hair stylist at the salon. Anyway...) I was stunned when she hemmed and hawed and gave me a non-answer. I was confused, because this gesture of interest and politeness (from my point of view) was obviously the 'wrong' thing, but she hadn't come out and just said that, which made me feel even more rejected. I also see shades of "do as I say, not as I do". Here were are, in therapy, to verbalize, articulate our experience, but on the other side of the couch, they are happy to 'drop hints' and suggest, and leave us to intuit??? That doesn't seem fair at all. Thanks to your post, I see that it is not 'just me' or 'just my T'. My theory about it is that this is their way to see what we do *without* the rule book. Spelling out the boundaries might prohibit certain behaviors a priori, as opposed to seeing what develops 'in the vacuum', and tackling issues and sorting them out as they arise. It still doesn't seem fair to me really, but at least it gives me a 'therapeutic' way of understanding it.

Regarding your second point, it sounds like you don't feel completely safe in the room. Then again, could feeling safe itself be a threat to you? Again, sorry for totally projecting here. My T has a strict way about her as well, and sometimes I resent that, but deep down, I know that feeling comfortable would mean that I would expose myself more. Bah, I am babbling about myself too much-- sorry if this is totally unhelpful!

For what it's worth, it does sound like you're doing great work, in spite of his idiosyncrasies. Have you tried articulating your need for more warmth from him?

effed

Hello Quell. Firstly I’d like to say that I’m glad you are feeling better about what’s going on with your T, sounds like you are distancing yourself from the initial surge of bad feelings after your session and are looking at it all more objectively, which is no mean feat. And all kudos to you for trying to understand what he was on about.

Sounds like he is not the most forthcoming or articulate T in the world, and the way you describe his comments makes me wonder whether he is a psychoanalytic therapist? They being notorious for not answering questions directly but turning them back on the client.

Having said that, these comments of his:

quote:

he tried to explain how not letting people chew gum or eat or have drinks when they are with him is better, because of some kind of discharge thing, like that they will have to say how they feel rather than be able to mess around with something distracting

This makes sense to me (though not the actual words he used, which strike me as a bit confusing ). It reminds me of the first long term therapist I saw (decades ago) who asked me not to eat or smoke in session, not because this was a boundary but because these activities, particularly ‘oral’ ones, can be a good way of avoiding and stuffing feelings. Even having a drink can be avoidance (I’m thinking of myself turning to a glass of water beside me and constantly sipping from it every time something painful or difficult or that I just plain didn’t want to talk about, came up.) So his reasons seem sound, what I’m dubious about is the way you describe him as being evasive, like he’s not being direct about things but giving you mixed messages – on the one hand saying he is quite a rigid therapist, but on the other telling you that he can be flexible about things. Maybe he’s expecting you to be more direct and upfront about what you do or don’t want to do in the session? (That's my attempt at seeing what he's said in a positive light.)

There is a red flag for me in what he says about not liking these things. If it’s all based on his own personal likes/dislikes then I reckon he ought to just say so. You’re getting a double message there, on the one hand you know he doesn’t like certain things and he even admits that, on the other he’s telling you that it’s in the interests of the therapy. Hmmmmm.

I also am dubious about his use of the word ‘safety’. I fail utterly to see how stripping client defences can possibly create a feeling of safety. Perhaps he meant something else and didn’t explain it very well, but I know that in your place I’d be feeling very very uncertain about what's been going on (and would openly challenge him on it, because not getting clear answers to direct questions makes me very paranoid and defensive and ultimately, angry).

Actually, thinking about it, it’s possible he was throwing out the word safety in relation to the concept of boundaries, which are theoretically there not to restrict the client or impose a T’s will on the client, but to maintain a safe framework within which the therapy takes place – ie having consistent (and known!) limits that can be questioned or pushed against but which won’t be either turned against the client, nor changed without negotiation.

I’m going to quote the same paragraph that some others have done, sorry if this is getting repetitive:

quote:

it makes me crazy when I pick up that he is uncomfortable about things and then he is evasive. I know that for me it feels like being a kid and not picking up on social cues and not realizing that I was supposed to "take a hint." And then I am ungently rejected, and also humiliated that I didn't “get it” earlier. It reminds me of that, and it makes me feel like I don’t trust him.

Like others have suggested, this would be really good to bring up with him. However, just because the set up reminds you of the past doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s not actually recreating it in the present. If you could talk this over with him I would hope that he doesn’t try and fob it all off on you as being transference or some kind of enactment. From the way you’ve described him, he IS acting in the same way that those others did who expected you to ‘take a hint’. The whole point of therapy is to be able to bring up to him in safety and acceptance how you feel about the stuff that goes on between you and him. He may not necessarily change, but he does need to recognize and validate that how he is being towards you is affecting you in these negative ways (even if ultimately you decide it’s ALL your interpretation and not what’s ‘really’ happening.)

Oh and for what it’s worth, I totally share your fear and feelings about the whole set up of having to have miraculously known in advance all the things that others expected of me as a kid and adult for that matter), and being punished or rejected for not getting it, for not knowing all the subtle nuances of unspoken social demands and expectations. It’s a hell of a way to live, the only way out was to try and double guess at every turn all the endless possible permutations of what might be expected, what is the right/wrong thing to say and do, what hidden messages are being conveyed behind other people’s expressions and words and actions… I’ve spent a lifetime perfecting that .

But on a hopeful note, it is possible to get beyond that quagmire of hidden expectations by accepting that it’s not possible to mind read and that if you get it ‘wrong’, so be it. Why should you be expected to anticipate and know in advance what others want/expect/demand. The onus is on them to make it clear not on you to accept some kind of punishment for having gotten it wrong. Sorry this is as much for me as you, but I hope it’s helpful all the same .

Sorry for the long post, I’ve been off forum for a long time and am obviously making up for it .

Anyway I hope you are able to bring all this up in your next session, let us know how it goes?

LL

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone, really.

Maybe I should mention that because of struggles with my therapist, I now have a consultant-type therapist in addition to him. This is fairly recent, and it came about because I had an eating disorder issue come up suddenly after around 28 years. T was uncomfortable with some things about the ED, and I thought he was also uncomfortable with my nutritionist’s recommendation that I either see him more often or add another therapist with a specialization to see in addition to him for a while. There was some drama that started with my feeling that he was uncomfortable with those suggestions, which led to me reacting to some things that he said about the ED, and then I went and looked for a specialist on my own. I told him that I had made appointments with a couple of specialists to see IN ADDITION to him and he got defensive about it (he has since admitted that he might have been feeling insecure), and sort of came down on me about it, which didn’t help. So when I talked to one of the specialists, she tuned in to what was going on right away and asked me if wanted to talk to her about my relationship with him and see if I wanted to try to get through the trust issue with him. It’s helped, and he is OK with it now. He told me, because I asked, that she is helpful to him, too.

A lot of my history with him involves being frustrated, primarily, but I have to admit that I have grown a lot and that somehow the therapy has worked for me in some important ways. The fact that he wouldn’t call me by my name ever, even though I made it clear that I would really appreciate it, used to really eat at me.

LL, I’m an avoidant type, so after growing up not taking the hint that people didn’t want me, I do try to read people very closely and second guess all the time. I also WALK AWAY when I can’t read people well enough or they are not reassuring enough. I feel like wanting to be able to read people close to me is a defense, but one I’d like to keep. Why would I want to trust people who might not want me or won’t tell me what is going on with them? I don’t like it, so I always want to leave and go somewhere where I can understand.

If I tell T about how picking up on his discomfort and evasiveness makes me feel and what it reminds me of, I have faith that he will do a good job hearing me. He has also taught me that even if I project things because of my past, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t sometimes also true now.

Is he a psychoanalytic therapist? Beats me. Well, he probably is, but back when I was having trouble with him the first time, I asked him what style of therapist he was and he told me that he didn’t have a style. Frustration through the roof! I’m pretty sure he’s not CBT. LOL

quote:

It’s a hell of a way to live, the only way out was to try and double guess at every turn all the endless possible permutations of what might be expected, what is the right/wrong thing to say and do, what hidden messages are being conveyed behind other people’s expressions and words and actions… I’ve spent a lifetime perfecting that

LL, I hope this continues to get better for you.

quote:

it is possible to get beyond that quagmire of hidden expectations by accepting that it’s not possible to mind read and that if you get it ‘wrong’, so be it.

You are right!

Thank you for sharing and for giving me so much to think about.

Quell

Effed,

I was literally excited to read that you have had similar experiences with your T!

You’d think the vacation question was to be expected as a polite, friendly inquiry. Not to have someone make you feel like they think you are going to hunt them down or something.

One time I was talking about my young niece and how I feel about the way she loves me. I was telling T this story about her, and in the middle, I asked if he had any kids. He seemed uncomfortable and asked me Why? or something. So I was like What do you mean, Why? And he says Well, it’s so out of the blue. (!!??) So I tell him that I just thought that if he had kids, he’d know what I meant about how it makes you feel when they love you like that. So then he says yes, he has “a child.” No age, no gender. Whatever.

I like your theory about us having to work without the rule book. It sure is WORK. And I have to admit, again, that I have had results, but it churns me up a lot. It hurts sometimes. I get angry, too.

About safety, I know I don’t really know about it. One time the consult T talked to me a bit about it and I could only get a fleeting sensation of what she meant. It felt weird to me. Like relief and fear at the same time. I couldn’t hold on to the sense of it. It kind of makes me think about something AG might have said. Not sure. But that you have to feel safe enough to feel fear or something.

Are you thinking that feeling safe is kind of a threat because then you would reveal more and be more vulnerable? Interesting.

I just this session mentioned the idea of having a T who is easier and less uptight, and he was OK with talking about it. I am nervous to mention warmth because he will ask me what I want and I don’t know what I want. Have you ever asked your T about your rulebook theory or safety or warmth?

So no, it's not just you or just your T. I'm sorry but glad that you understand.

Quell

Quell,

I am only writing this because you had shared that you had some similar experiences with your T in regards to dealing with (I'm going to refer to my own personal experience as being what is was/is, now that I'm no longer in therapy)...verbal abuse. This may or not have been your experience, but there is something going on here that I'm curious about.

I cannot speak for you or anyone else, but as Lamplighter pointed out, his words and his messages strike me as confusing. I don't want to say "Crazymaking", because I'm not there, I'm not you, and it's not up to me to make such assessments. But I also own that I just used the word... crazymaking.

I also noticed that you used the words "Makes me Crazy".

I looked up the term: "Crazymaking is a guaranteed way to control someone because you can never be right. If a person requires two opposite things from you, point out that this is impossible and that you cannot do this."

Can someone tell me how this has ANYTHING to do with "safety"?

I have also become more discriminating and careful about the word "boundary"... the way I use it, and the way I see others use it. I posted something on another thread about how the concept of "boundary" can actually be abused to include unilateral decisions made by the T. I had also mentioned that sometimes unilateral decisions are unavoidable, but it's good to call something what it really is: Someone making up the rules as they go along. Forgive me, but to me, my definition of safety is to be willing and able to question, clarify, and give an honest response about one's feelings (positive or negative) in regards to these unilateral decisions, even when we know those decisions are non-negotiable, without being punished for it.

Is there a reason he can't just come out and say that the shoes/drinking policy is about HIS personal preferences? This sounds more honest and forthright to me. Would you find it easier to trust your T if he was willing to admit/take responsibility for his own input into this relationship? (countertransference, if you will)

It's his territory, he's allowed to have rules and preferences, but if he can't be straightforward about it... Fill me in, I just want to make sure that I'm understanding you.

quote:

So I asked if it's OK if people play with the buttons on their coats or something, while they are there, like I do. So he says that he is not trying to take away all of the client's defenses, but that not allowing some of the things makes the environment more safe.

I thought your response was great! I was smiling to myself.. and wondering why I didn't come up with something as brilliant! His answer, Meh.

quote:

So his reasons seem sound, what I’m dubious about is the way you describe him as being evasive, like he’s not being direct about things but giving you mixed messages – on the one hand saying he is quite a rigid therapist, but on the other telling you that he can be flexible about things.

Evasive AND rigid? Those two things, together, would cause me to wonder. Not to mention the mixed messages. What are your thoughts?

Is this what you perceive is happening? If I'm stepping out of line, take it with a grain of salt and go with your gut. But DO trust YOUR own judgement on this.

The very first time I got upset with him and called him on it, he apologized and told me that he had made a unilateral decision and that he knew "that wasn't cool." He also said it was great that I had told him what was bothering me.

This last session, he mentioned that he was inconsistent in the boundaries we were talking about. He said it twice, I think, but it was too much for me to think about that and talk about that at the time. I knew that the two words "inconsistent" and "boundaries" aren't really supposed to go together in the therapy environment. But, these boundaries are so small...

The coaster I noticed in his office was brought in by another client, he told me. I feel bad for the other client, who I'm guessing also picked up on some discomfort from him when she brought in a drink and maybe assumed it was because he didn't want drink circles on his table, so next time she brought in a coaster. I mentioned to him that now he is stuck because now what if he gets rid of the coaster? The client would feel weird about it. I don't remember what he said, but my impression is that he will just leave it there and deal with whatever happens. Maybe that was when he said that he knew he was being inconsistent. Presumably becasue that other client brings drinks, when he is not a fan of clients bringing in drinks. It seems such a silly little detail, but it is also so loaded somehow.

quote:

Would you find it easier to trust your T if he was willing to admit/take responsibility for his own input into this relationship? (countertransference, if you will)

Thanks for this really good question, number9. I don't know right now. I have to think/feel about it.

I do remember writing about some of this before, but I am lousy with the search feature, I guess. Couldn't find it. I do remember often being frustrated at not understanding things and also always wondering if there was a method to his madness, or if he was just not a very good therapist in some ways. By the way, as he knows I have struggled with these things, he has told me that he thinks he is a good therapist. He also elaborated on that the next time we had trouble and told me that he thinks he is a good therapist for me because he is committed to me and interested in me and willing to look at his own stuff when he works with me.

Number9, did you end it with your T? Did you start up with another?

Thanks very much for weighing in.

Quell,

quote:

I was telling T this story about her, and in the middle, I asked if he had any kids. He seemed uncomfortable and asked me Why? or something. So I was like What do you mean, Why? And he says Well, it’s so out of the blue. (!!??) So I tell him that I just thought that if he had kids, he’d know what I meant about how it makes you feel when they love you like that.

I just came back from the pizzeria. It's one I go to often and I always chat with the owner. I told him tonight that I am so tired of making dinner and also tired of hearing my kids complain about what I make.

Then I asked, Do you have kids? And he told me he had two. I asked how old and what schools they went to, thinking that they might be the same age as one of mine and go to the same school. It just seemed like a normal exchange.

When he told me he had kids, I said, oh, so you know what I am talking about.

I left and immediately thought of all these therapists who make such a big deal out of us asking what seem like normal questions that anyone would have, like where are you going on vacation? Or do you have kids?

Whatever it is. They just seem like normal questions to me and I really don't get why it's so pathological.

Liese

It all depends on the individual T how they respond I think. I have asked my T how many children she had, their ages, how long she had been a T, where she grew up, and what her religious background was. She answered all of them, although after answering she did ask why I wanted to know. When T's don't answer questions it usually means they are trying to be analytic somehow. As in analyzing your curiosity about them rather than satisfying it. That or they're just really private. I don't think it means they think the question is pathological though.

I was excited too

quote:

I just this session mentioned the idea of having a T who is easier and less uptight, and he was OK with talking about it. I am nervous to mention warmth because he will ask me what I want and I don’t know what I want. Have you ever asked your T about your rulebook theory or safety or warmth?

I've broached the subject of safety, not the other two. These discussions are very frustrating for me because I feel like, she wants to sit there and look at why I don't feel safe, instead of looking at what she can do to fix certain issues. It's like I need to take it for granted that the place is safe, and what's wrong with me that I don't feel that? I have ginormous issues, sure. But the conversation never feels like a two way street, not even a tiny bit. There's a hint of arrogance there (I see echoes of it in your T's assessment of himself as a good therapist... lol) that is like a call to battle for me. I get angry too.

But it's not ALWAYS like that, or honestly I don't know if I would have lasted this long. I have felt safe, one or two memorable moments come to mind. It seems to have to do with certain subjects coming up. You've inspired me though, maybe I'll make more of a point of raising these issues...

Good luck with this, I am rooting for you!


effed

I've had the warmth discussion because the trauma and bpd literature says that we need warmth, that the t's have To find this exquisite balance between warmth and professionalism. But my t and I have pretty much talked about everything now so there are no secrets

My t has been indulging me re all the things that make me feel unsafe with him. I complained he was too animated, too happy, too this, too that and he keeps changing to please me. I apologized recently and told him that I've turned him into a sliver of a man. He said it was okay, that it helps him learn about me. Someday I'll be able to ask for what I need I hope so that I don't have to keep changing him to be comfortable.

Liese

quote:

I complained he was too animated, too happy, too this, too that and he keeps changing to please me. I apologized recently and told him that I've turned him into a sliver of a man.

This so amused me!

I was thinking too, about safety, and how it's fine for me to have all these troubles and criticisms of him and talk about finding another T, but if he ever suggested that he wanted me to go, I'd freak. I know that he has adjusted some things to fit me based on my feedback. So now I feel like asking him if it's OK if I keep changing my mind and reassessing what we are doing and how it is going and what I want. I mean is it safe to be so unfair and to ask for something and then say, Oh, that's not really what I wanted after all? If that were OK, that might feel pretty safe.

So Liese, did he become more warm for you? And how?

quote:

So now I feel like asking him if it's OK if I keep changing my mind and reassessing what we are doing and how it is going and what I want. I mean is it safe to be so unfair and to ask for something and then say, Oh, that's not really what I wanted after all? If that were OK, that might feel pretty safe.

If there is ONE thing my T is REALLY clear about, it's that it's NOT about fair in his office. Your therapy is about your needs and feelings, not your therpist's needs and feelings. Part of the reason we pay them, is so that they will keep their feelings out of the room and be able to be non-defensive and handle our feelings without attacking us back or making it about them.

A big part of what is healing about therapy is that you have a space that can be about your feelings and needs, and of course they're changing. You've finally entered a space in which you can be clearly reflected and learn who you are and it's exactly that, a learning process. That means there will be mistakes and course changes along the way.

I agree that it sounds like your T can be kind of rigid, OTOH, the fact that he is very willing to discuss his boundaries with you and hear how you're feeling about them is a really good sign.

There are two posts on my blog I think you might find helpful:

Why won't my therapist just tell me how this works?!?

Boundaries, Dependence and Interdependence

AG

Quell,

He is more warm. He seems more real to me. I just didn't think animation was appropriate in therapy. Just my opinion. I also told him he felt like cardboard. I've been pretty hard on him.

This expert on BPD wrote, the BPD's are going to want nurturing but you can't give it to them. They are going to demand it and you have to tell them that it pushes you away when you demand it.

I was so horrified to read this because I didn't get a lot of nurturing as a child. And, so I read that to say, "You didn't get it as a child and we're not going to give it to you now and you still have to find a way to heal." It just horrified me.

Sorry, went off track there. One of my little pet peeves.

I've changed my mind on things I've needed. It does get messy sometimes but what are you doing to do? Sometimes I have felt like I shot myself in the foot because he gave me things and then stopped doing them because I complained. Now I miss them. Like his hugs. They were so nice. A word of advice from me: don't ever complain about hugs if your T gives them to you.



Liese

Liese, good to hear that you've gone back and forth on things, too, and that you've gotten more warmth. I'm sorry that you lost your hugs. It seems like you should be able to get them back someday.

quote:

A word of advice from me: don't ever complain about hugs if your T gives them to you.

A T who is uncomfortable using my name might hug me someday? Ha! *laughs bitterly*

Actually, I do try to give him positive reinforcement when he does things I appreciate so that he knows what I like and keeps doing it. Like when he remembers something from one session to the next and follows up on it. That makes me feel like he's paying attention.

AG, I love your blog. It doesn't surprise me to think that I have to read and reread and read again in order to get it, though.

quote:

I agree that it sounds like your T can be kind of rigid, OTOH, the fact that he is very willing to discuss his boundaries with you and hear how you're feeling about them is a really good sign.

One last whine. I don't necessarily feel like he is VERY willing. It seems like all the time I have to bring to his attention that I know he is uncomfortable and I have to do a lot of work to get him to tell me how things work and what's going on, and THEN when I push it, he is willing to tell me things. He never said anything about boundaries in two years. He doesn't exactly ask how these things make me feel, either. Like in this case he asked me if I thought his boundaries were rigid or firm or clear. He didn't ask how they made me feel, although that comes out at some point I suppose.

Thanks everyone for your input! If something interesting comes up at our next meeting, I'll update. I know that there is potentially a lot to talk about.

Quell

I said I’d update if anything interesting came up. I don’t know how to tell this story so it’s not too long or too short. Usually I make stories too long. Sorry.

At the end of the drinks and shoes boundary session I wrote about last week, I found myself telling T that I’ve always kind of had a fantasy--if for one day I could just say anything I want. Anything, and no consequences. Whatever I want to say…anything. I got all choked up and teary just talking about it. So as I am leaving, T says that he thinks that we could work on making it safe for me to say anything I want in there, with him. I had only been thinking about this fantasy in the general world, not necessarily in his office, but I figured it made sense the way he translated it to therapy, and that sounded OK.

So this week T reminded me about the boundaries talk and the safety thing. I told him I didn’t really understand safety and how it was supposed to feel or what it meant. So we talked about it, and I was trying to explain how it felt when I imagined safety, which is similar to how I feel when I think about my fantasy of saying whatever I want, too. Basically it feels like such a relief, a huge relief when I think about those things, but then at the tail end of the relief and the feeling of freedom, I feel sort of nauseous. Like it’s too much relief. It reminded me of one time when someone gave me a shoulder massage that felt so relaxing, I couldn’t believe it, but then I felt kind of sick because it was like I needed to have at least some of the tension just to hold me up. I threw out a few other analogies that T tied in to my relationship with him in some ways.

I had mentioned earlier that if I could have the “say whatever I want” fantasy, with no consequences, I wouldn’t just be telling people off all day and enjoying them not getting mad at me for it. It wouldn’t just be negative stuff that I’d say. So finally T is tying all this in to how I am with him, too, suggesting that if I could say whatever I wanted to with him, it wouldn’t be all negative stuff with him either, but that maybe what makes me feel sort of sick, and that it’s too much, is from the other end of the spectrum. ------“Maybe you feel that there are other things that are dangerous to say that you are afraid of. Maybe you want to say…’I love you ‘… or ‘I need you.’”

I may be deluded, but I really think that he was telling me that it’s OK if I want to tell him that I love him or that I need him.

I feel like that’s a pretty nice thing for him to do for me, to let me know that that would be OK. I feel like he was really trying to prove that he wants to make it safe. It’s like I’m pre-approved to say something like that if I want to. If that’s true, that seems pretty safe. I’m going to ask this week if that’s what he meant.

Quell,
This made for really nice reading. Therapy SHOULD be a safe enough place to speak of anything, both the good and the bad. For people who were often silenced or taught not to express their real selves, it can be both powerful and daunting to discover this freedom.

And I have often felt a sense of danger when learning to express my real feelings. Got me in trouble or hurt too many times to NOT feel that way. I have often also had the really good feelings of being heard and understood followed by grief because getting that acceptance and understanding now teaches me the loss of what I didn't get then. But I wouldn't trade it for anything, it is the quintessential case of "better late than never."

FWIW, I've told my T on more than one occasion, that I both love and need him and was met with the same acceptance and understanding that any of my feelings have evoked, so my feeling is that your belief that your T is telling you it's ok to express those emotions is spot on.

AG

Quell, that is an amazing xtory! thanks for sharing and good for you for making that huge hurdle!

QUELL,

This is beautiful. I wish my T was comfortable with me loving him. He says he is now but he wasn't always.

quote:

------“Maybe you feel that there are other things that are dangerous to say that you are afraid of. Maybe you want to say…’I love you ‘… or ‘I need you.’”

Your T is smart. It can be just as hard and scary feeling the positive stuff as well as the negative stuff.



Liese

h

Thanks AG, CD, Liese and Muff.

I didn’t realize so much of this was about communication. The day after this session with Mr. T, I had an appointment with Ms. T, the consult. I only see her every other week, so I had to catch her up on the drinking and shoes boundaries conversation. I told her about the coaster in Mr. Ts office and how I asked if people could have drinks in his office and how he said Maybe. And that was one of the things that made me so frustrated. So she asked me why I didn’t ask him to clarify so that I could understand what maybe meant. I was like blink, blink…blink…I don’t know. It didn’t occur to me. She asks me to think about why, so I try, and the only thing that pops into my head is Because he doesn’t have to tell me. So then one thing leads to another and I realize that my mother’s favorite answer to a question is None of your business. Only it was mostly big questions she would answer that way, like what’s going on and why are we doing this or not doing this or how do you feel and what do you think and what do you want and what are we trying to do now that dad’s dead and everything is all messed up? None of your business.

Anyway, that’s another story. But a productive week!

I feel a little guilty that I don’t want to tell T that I love him. I don’t think I feel comfortable enough to love him, or else I do love him and am not comfortable with it myself, so I don’t really feel it. I am heavily invested in him; I know that much. And I am very happy that he is offering to be accepting when and if I feel it and want to tell him. I can’t do it now, but I can imagine a time when I can…maybe.

Thanks everyone.

Quell

Hello again Quell, sounds like you've been working things out well this last week, good to hear .

That’s some connection you made between not being able to ask outright for clear answers and your mother’s responses to you when you were little. Patterns… Though to be honest having a T answer a clear question with ‘maybe’ doesn’t inspire much confidence that he’s going to help break that pattern. I hope you can bring yourself to be more insistent in getting clarification from him in future (easy to say, not so easy in the moment though.)

And wow that whole conversation you described in your update – sounds like you were really heard. I’ve often had this fantasy of being able to really let rip at someone and say everything that I’m thinking to them and not be retaliated against but accepted instead. Only on my part there’s nothing positive I want to say, it would be all negative.

On my first reading of your update though, my immediate thought was that your T was subtly manipulating you into expressing only positive stuff for him and thereby guiding you away from anything negative. On rereading it I see that actually he was simply addressing a fear that you yourself brought up, and though I personally would totally freak out at having a T put words in my mouth like that, I get how it’s given you a sense of safety knowing that he would be ok about your telling him any positive feelings you might have for him in the future.

quote:

I don’t think I feel comfortable enough to love him, or else I do love him and am not comfortable with it myself, so I don’t really feel it

Sounds like his having given you ‘permission’ to talk about your feelings for him has put some pressure on you to come up with precisely those feelings, even though you yourself don’t feel them at the moment? I get the sense that you might be feeling like loving your T is some sort of given, inevitable, and that you’re almost beating yourself up at the moment for NOT feeling that?

Obviously this is all ongoing and you’re in between sessions and it’s just given you lots of food for thought so take my comments as just being my reading of where you’re at right at this very moment.

I find it interesting that you have this consult T you go to, to talk specifically about your main T. Does your T know about this? And is he ok about it? I ask because it’s unheard of over here (UK) for a T accept a client seeing another T purely in order to do therapy about the therapy. Do you think it’s helpful on the whole?

Anyway, good to hear that you’re sorting through the issues of previous sessions and feeling more positive about it all.

LL

LL, I do have lots of food for thought now! And I'm definitely working on figuring out how I feel about most things. It's good to be able to run my thoughts by people here and get feedback.

Having a consult T seems weird to me, too, but it is definitely helpful! My T does know about the consult, who started out as being an option for help with an eating disorder. She is very experienced. My regular T told me that consulting with her has been helpful to him, also. I don't know how long I will keep meeting with her. I assume it's short term, but I am trying not to worry about it for now.

Quell

So yesterday after some surface talk, I asked T flat out, "Last week, did you tell me that it's Ok to tell you that I love you or that I need you?"

He said "Yes and no." Then he reviewed the conversation, which I remembered very well, and what he said matched my recollection. So at the conclusion of his speech, he seemed to be saying that at the time he had been speaking in general about me being able to say things like that, but also, yes, certainly, it's OK if I tell him that I love him. That was about it. He didn't ask me any questions about it and I didn't ask any, either.

So, yes and no. That's the end of the story.

Quell

quote:

That's the end of the story.

No, Quell, I think that is a very good beginning of your story with T. You are safe to say to him whatever you need to. He understands. And if you do find out down the road that you love him, well now you know that feeling is okay and accepted.

I'm glad you asked.

Hugs
TN