It is tough and I find it difficult to reply, compounded by the fact that I read most of your post trying to work out quite what exactly had happened. But you did not disclose that so I was left feeling puzzled and found I was trying to piece it together but did not manage to work it out.

Yes, a t sometimes does need to intervene for our safety and that is reassuring - they do what they consider best for us. I cannot really comment in your case, because of not knowing the exact circumstance of what happened here.

Yes, I think you two would be much better off with separate T's but that is not really seeming something you can sort out right now, it seems.

Sending you hugs and hoping you feel a bit better about all this.

quote:

Has anyone had a similar experience where your T had to intervene for your safety (whether it was changing your treatment plan or disclosing information to another party)?

Yes. A few times (all safety issues) but between other members of my care team not a relative.

quote:

Did it interfere with your ability to share afterward?

Yes.

quote:

Were you able to work through it quickly?

No. I have an extremely adverse reaction to being "rescued" (interfered with!!!) there isn't a part of me that likes it. I was supremely pissed and one particular time took months to get over.

Sometimes clients honestly cannot care for themselves. My T told me this point blank at one point in our work in the beginning ("Cat you do not know what is best for you right now."). I think sometimes Ts can make "rescuing" boundary crossings and they document them well (I would hope) and make those decisions based on sound clinical judgement not just rogue countertransference but with (again hopefully) an understanding of their own feelings.

So I hope whatever happened, I don't really understand, works out. Your T seems like a good T so I am apt to assume what he did was based on a clinical judgement that suited both you and your H. I know you are very open with him so I also know you'll talk to him about the rainbow of feelings/thoughts you have on this and I hope your H will also! It's unfortunate you guys both see the same T in some aspects rather than each having a T and the two of them consult, etc that makes sure your H's work is about HIM. You'll get through this! (((yaku))) It is your Ts job to manage his countertransference - you can't force him to do anything so I hope you will not start selectively sharing... I did that and it derailed me and my therapy for months so... I wouldn't' recommend it hehehe!!

Thinking of you.

Sadly, thanks for the support. Sorry for the vagueness. I don't want to be triggering and sorry if that made it confusing. It doesn't really matter what happened, but it was definitely a safety issue that required addressing and T took it upon himself to push the issue.

Cat, I know you know how I feel with the being rescued stuff. This is...something I really wanted to figure out how to do and deal with on my own, but also something that needed to be taken care of right away, so I can understand it on an intellectual level.

I'm confident that my T did base his decision on clinical judgment and he has explained more than once and in detail exactly why he thought it was best both for me and for my H, so it's not as if he was choosing my welfare over my H's welfare, but he really thought it was something beneficial within both of our treatments. I will try not to selectively share, but I think that unconsciously, those things just might not happen to come up in my therapy for a while. Thanks for your thoughts.

I guess if H were wanting to see another therapist, I would support that, but I would never push him to do so. If I had known I was going to be there longer than a few sessions for H's benefit, I would have never started seeing his therapist in the first place...though, it almost felt providential with how well we work together.

quote:

I'm confident that my T did base his decision on clinical judgment and he has explained more than once and in detail exactly why he thought it was best both for me and for my H, so it's not as if he was choosing my welfare over my H's welfare, but he really thought it was something beneficial within both of our treatments. I will try not to selectively share, but I think that unconsciously, those things just might not happen to come up in my therapy for a while. Thanks for your thoughts.

Hi Yaku... I think you summed it up nicely in the quote above. Your T was looking out for you and also including your dh in his decision. He is ethically bound to protect you and make those hard decisions. And let me add that ethics aside he would want to protect you because you are doing some hard work which could leave you fragile and unable to look out for yourself. I think it would be okay to work on accepting this protection as clinically sound and necessary.

I think I may have an idea of what you are talking about but not sure. If it is what I'm thinking then I am glad you have T to step in and keep you safe. I know it's hard to accept this protection because it is so unfamiliar to those of us who learned at a too early age to protect and care for ourselves, while those who were SUPPOSED TO take care of us failed miserably. If LY is feeling okay and protected, then maybe the others will come to accept it too. It has been very hard for me to accept my T's caring and protection. He often tells me that if I cannot protect Little TN then he will protect both of us until I can learn to do this.

While I never had this kind of thing happen when a T steps in to talk to someone (although oldT stepped in and very unnecessarily called the cops on me that last day) I would think it may set back my trust a bit even though I cognitively understood it was necessary. But I believe because of your close relationship with your T you will work this out and get past it with a little discussion and further understanding on both sides. I can imagine you are a bit hesitant right now but I believe it will pass because of the strong relationship you have.

Just keep talking to T about it. I hope your home situation is okay for you.


TN

((((TN)))) Thanks so much. Your post helped me more than you know to go in there today and be a bit more honest than I otherwise would have pushed myself to be. I told him how I both understood what he did as the very best and right thing to do for both H and I...but still, was having a lot of confusing feelings regarding him taking care of me in that way. I gave the example of how stressful it is when he does something little like moves his clock, because the ticking makes me anxious. And then asked him to imagine, if I get so visibly distressed with him intervening in that relatively small way, how it must feel to me to have him do something so big for me, when I am so accustomed to not allowing myself to need anything from anyone, to the point of not even being in touch with my own needs, because they get put elsewhere. He totally understood and after some trepidation, we had a very connected session...but also, unforunately, a new very painful thing came up as a result of the safety we are building and I think it will make way for very scary stuff that has been surfacing this past month and I am terrified and almost wishing I could take it back. I will get through it, I know. I have a good T who cares for me.

But, I still sometimes worry he cares too much. I brought his check, which I forgot to give to him last time, and he insisted on calling me thoughtful for that. I said it wasn't thoughtful, that when you receive a service, you pay for it and he was giving much more than he was getting paid for. He made some sort of aside comment, like, "You know, I would do this work with you whether or not you paid me," so he thought it was still thoughtful that I did. Now I am stuck on THAT level of care that is coming from him to me.

I told him it is really hard for me, that he does too much. He asked, "What's too much?" I said, "Well, you give too much extra time." So, he asked, "I should stop giving extra time?" I ignored it, because it was a scary question, and said, "And you text too much and read too many pages of journals." He said, "OK, so you think I should stop giving extra time, stop texting and stop reading so much of the journals?" Inside, LY was so sad, preparing for me to allow him to take it away. I said, "Yes." And then he asked me to imagine myself in an advisory role about some other patient, not me, on the other side of the room, facing similar stuff...and if I still thought it was too much, that he should take all those things away, that it wasn't needed. I pleaded the fifth there, because I didn't want to let him be right. But, truly, I thought of this forum and the pain so many people are in and tried to imagine myself going to any one of your therapists and telling them, "You are doing too much for my friend, ____," and I knew it was ridiculous...but, I just can't accept it for myself.

Anyway, we had a hard stop today, so with all that was coming up, I didn't feel I really got to resolve any of this. I know it will come up over and over again, probably for a long time. But, I feel like it hasn't completely knocked out my ability to share with him, except in the category, maybe, of marriage stuff (which, I can share a bit, but get really hesitant). So, I wanted to thank you all for your advice and support. I really appreciate it.

I always find it so great how open you are with your T. My T uses those same kind of arguments with me *all* the time when I say something irrational, like how I'm not allowed to feel anger. I just told her that I'm exempt from feeling anger. I know it's a ridiculous argument, but as I'm sure you know, those beliefs are so deep seated that they are VERY hard to let go of.

Good for you for continuing to share with your T. You're doing such amazing work!

Kashley, thanks so much for your support. Sorry I have not responded until now.

So, the intervention is complete and resulted in what it aspired to, but now I am left with something else. My H has (understandable) feelings of betrayal/anger/loss of trust that stirred up (possibly justifiable) hurt, anger, hopelessness on my end. The last couple of days while I was transitioning with H and trying to listen to and accept his feelings, I've had so many intense waves of emotion and thoughts about how wrong it is that I am in this situation. I wanted to write to my T, journal about it...except, I can't. I am not ready to tell H, because I am working through how much of it is actually about him and how much is caught up in past stuff. And, because H was so betrayed by the fact that I was discussing this other stuff with T and from the way he found out (although, jeez, if he didn't know from past conversations, I don't know what I could have done different), I feel literally not able to share with my T, who might reveal stuff to H (probably won't) or even if he didn't, I actually feel as if I'm a betrayer.

It's a bit ridiculous, considering I have made SO much effort to tell H everything that goes on in my therapy, to the point where it got to be too much for him and he said to stop making him a second therapist. So, I had been telling him too much and now it is not enough or I didn't tell him the right stuff, except I really did and it just didn't go well and I couldn't seem to make him understand or maybe he just really didn't want to hear it and had to hear it from someone who could deal with making him extremely angry. I feel like everything I do is wrong right now. Sharing a T with him (when I thought it would be a few weeks) was wrong. If I talk to T about this stuff that has been coming up before being open with my partner, I am betraying H, hence wrong. If I talk to H before I have processed it enough to work through what is actually related to him, wrong. If I hide and dissociate this stuff (um...too late!), I'm not working through present day stuff that is related to or interfering with processing past stuff...wrong. I texted T about all these feelings of "wrongness" and even THAT felt wrong. As T said and I already understood, feeling wrong is not the same as being wrong. There may be some places I am ACTUALLY wrong and a lot of places I am not, but I am having such a hard time sorting which is which right now.

To make it worse, all the thoughts and feelings and especially the anger about the position I am in has dissipated. It's like sediment at the bottom of still waters that was stirred up and has now settled back down. When it was stirred up, I could have written for ages about it, but I felt not allowed to. Now, I could probably write about it without too much of a feeling of being "in trouble," but I am completely disconnected to whatever it was I was thinking and feeling. I realize a good deal of this is caught up in very real past threats about "telling" and how that threatens the family. I'm pretty sure I had direct threats from my mom's boyfriend (one person I am beginning to understand hurt me). But, even if I didn't, I had the implicit threat that when my older sisters told about the physical abuse the first time, they weren't believed. And when they told the second time, there was a court battle (don't remember it), they were taken away by their dad (don't remember it, except one vague thing about my mom not having his proper phone number and being upset), and my mom had a debilitating breakdown (um...don't remember it and from what LY has said, not sure I want to). Add to that explicit instructions not to discuss what our home life was like during preteens and teens. Now, even telling about present day stuff that is the whole point of H's therapy feels like a huge threat to me. But I did it. I trusted. And the person I told intervened (probably appropriately), except all I can do is see that as a threat and now my therapeutic safety has been eroded in a different way.

I expressed some of this (obviously much more briefly) to T via text and he said he was concerned about where this seemed to be going for me and asked if I had time for a 15-30 minute call today. Usually, I would fight myself about it and make time. Instead, I pushed him away with an excuse about not feeling it wise to take more time away from my family on a week that has included a church event, a memorial, a night of therapy, a night of band practice. Do I want to talk to him? Yes. Do I need to? Probably. Can I? I don't know. I don't know if I can talk to him about anything related to H anymore. Because I told and I got in trouble for it, in a way. But, I am not really in trouble. I am just a wife hearing her husband's natural feelings of hurt in response to a horrible situation. But, the past stuff makes it feel as if I have to torch my T relationship right now. I'm really confused and destabilized with some acting out and tons of dissociation, but kind of necessary for me to push this stuff away right now.

I don't want to run away from T, to keep pushing him away, but every time he tries to help and I feel connected/close right now, I just start panicking about it again. It feels like when the middle school counselor called me in, because he sensed something was wrong. I don't even remember the conversation at all, just that I knew I was going to be in such trouble if mom found out I got noticed, called in. Funny, because there were parts of me that wanted desperately to be noticed and rescued at that time. But, as soon as I was, I aggressively disavowed any distress (or...at least I think I did) and pushed him away as quick as I could. I think they might have called home, because I might have been in trouble for even looking upset at school. Anyway, that's how I feel. I'm getting called into the office and if I tell, it's going to f--- everything up, so I have to be aloof, push this guy away, protect my family. And that's not the reality I live in anymore, but I can't seem to keep making myself relive it as if it is.

Yet, instead of feeling a good opportunity to work through these things, I just want to say, "F--- therapy!" and explode the relationship. Feels a bit like I'm losing my mind. Help!

Breathe Yaku. It will be okay. You are piling everything on yourself right now and are approaching panic! I know you feel caught in between someone you love (dh) and someone you are tightly attached to and need (T). You should not have to chose like you did as a child. As a child you had to chose between telling and getting in big trouble or allowing the abuse and neglect to go on and you were desperately trying to protect yourself and keep your self safe through all of this. I think a lot of those feelings are getting stirred up right now.

While those feelings may feel scary and you feel like you are in trouble, they are not dangerous and the situations are different. You do have some choices now and dh is a big boy and can deal with his own stuff. I think you have been more than generous in sharing things with dh that happen in therapy.

Your feelings are feelings and you have already survived the worst (your childhood). You have a T to help you and you are grown now and more able to protect yourself. I think your T has been trying to help you with that ability to protect yourself with regard to your dh's issues that cause you pain. It's okay to have the care and focus on you now. You have always taken care of everyone else and I know it's hard to accept T's care but it's okay. You have not done anything wrong. You are doing so much right in healing yourself for Boo. If you feel scared about doing this for yourself then focus on your little girl and do it for her. And tell dh that if he acts upset. Boo is first priority.

And yes I know you want to push away T and stop therapy and just run but you can't run from you as you have discovered. It finds it's way out (the yucky stuff) and then it's worse. You have already shown amazing courage and I know you still have some so please just keep on going to T and bringing him these feelings. As you know I struggle with T doing for me and protecting me too. But as I allow those little bits of it then it gets easier and it feels so damn good now and I push away thoughts that he should not have to do this and I should take care of myself.

You will be okay. Try to let those feelings go and if you have to numb yourself until next session then that is what you have to do for now.

Thinking of you
TN

(((((YAKU)))))

Just sending big hugs. You are in a very difficult situation. It sounds like there is a bit of triangulation/countertransference going on that might not be healthy or good. I'm not sure if you are happy T intervened or not but it sounds like going forward that you and he need to be on the same page about him intervening without your knowledge or permission.

Big big hugs,

Liese

(((TN))) (((Liese)))

Thanks for your support. So, yesterday, the day that T had wanted to do a check-in call with me, he had a check-in with H instead. So, H tells me it was to check on if I was doing OK, because some of my texts concerned him and so I text T and he says it was about trying to gauge how H felt about me communicating with him and also that part of his role is facilitating safety, that he was obviously failing at the moment, and it was important for him to be able to check in when concerned, but he could go without that tool if it was problematic for me. That was reassuring that I still had control. I told him I thought a lot of it was feeling unsafe, because the caretaking triggered a lot of past stuff for me. Counting on someone else was never safe, so allowing myself to do it with him, even though he is probably the safest person I've ever had around, is terrifying on a very basic level (like internal rules of the universe about my value and the safety of the world arond me).

So, we texted A LOT yesterday, back and forth, and I was able to express that I didn't mind him having that tool at his disposal, but that I would rather he push me directly (i.e. if he had told me a check in call was really important for me to make time for) or ask/inform me before communications with H. I told him all the feeling it was dragging up...the unsafety of him taking care of me, the sense that intervention took away my self-determination and control, the upset that he didn't push me and come directly to me with his concerns and trust me to communicate about them, considering how hard I often have to fight to remain open with him.

He was very present throughout, prompt, responsive and understanding of my feelings. He expressed sadness that I was in so much pain over what was being stirred up. I told him I felt like I mess up everything, because the whole thing could have been prevented if I had just taken his call. He said I hadn't messed up a thing and I in fact rarely ever made a mistake and perhaps my challenge should be to mess up so I can work on being more generous with myself. An hour or two later, whatever I was stuck in kind of lifted, so I sent him a joke about how tough it must be to have such a nearly perfect client and he responded kindly and seemed genuinely happy that I was doing better. It's like...he cares about me or something.

Anyway, we have a couples session tomorrow. My only problem is, I can't for the life of me remember the millions of things I was upset about concerning the original situation that T had to intervene in. I mean, I kind of in general can express my frustration at not being understood, but because I felt like I couldn't really journal about that, all these specific thoughts I had about it are gone now. I'm almost hoping to get triggered in the session, because it will be safe with T there to express and not get overwhelmed, plus I have my own individual session later that night to process anything else that comes up. Anyway, I appreciate everyone's continued good thoughts.

I think, ultimately, it comes down to that I still trust my T, that everything he has done has been for my benefit and safety, that he is safe to express my fear of protection/caretaking to...and that maybe it is OK for me to rely on a person who has been good, consistent, steady, safe, when life is just too much for me. I had a memorial service, a job interview, a family member with a sort of crisis, this ongoing issue with H and normal life stuff all in a five day period this week. It was too much for me, but my T was there in the midst. Maybe it is OK if I let myself need him just a little bit as I face all this really tough past and present day stuff...

Yaku,

I'm so glad to read that you are clear right now on your T's caring and are able to separate your feelings about the past and who he is in your life today. You sound like you are dealing with a lot of different things right now and still holding on to the connection with T and that is amazing progress.

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to reply even though I have been reading this thread but I couldn't seem to express anything this weekend. I'm thinking of you and hope your couples session goes well.

((((incognito)))) Thanks for responding. I am feeling T's care pretty strongly and know he is doing what he feels is best.

Our couples' session went well. I feel we're all on the same page (but I've been wrong about that before). Also, T apologized for any issues his intervention caused and said that communication between the three of us is something he has to get better at. I see him again for my individual session in just a bit. Crossing my fingers things stay OK.

Everyone, please will that my cats are friendly to me. They are acting up again and making this whole situation miserable like they did last time. It's almost like they're punishing me, though I know that's now how it's meant.

Cat - the issue is actually that my cats have decided they like to punish me for changing my routine, so the change I made has caused them to "mark" my new territory, thus making it impossible to use. H has bought some sort of cleaning solution that is supposed to keep them from continuing to do that and is going to try that out for me.

H is being TONS more supportive than he was last time and reassured me that I absolutely need to have my therapy as a place to work through things, even if it means doing so before I can tell him. We have worked out that a lot of his anger and resentment and sense of betrayal, which was initially directed at me, is more being upset at himself for his helplessness to make things better and hopelessness that it will ever change, but we are taking a few (small) practical steps on the medical side of things and continuing in his therapy to hope whatever part is unconscious and/or past-related can be moved into his conscious and be processed. As much as I hated the intervention, I'm not sure I could have gotten through to him the way T seems to have, because I can't tolerate conflict well, so maybe it was for the best...though I will have to learn to do the latter, absolutely.

I had a rough couple of days with Boo being sick and me not getting much sleep, but thank God, I finally slept last night. She only us up a total of three times, as opposed to about 15 the night before.

Individual session was good last night, but I STILL didn't paint. I was so tired and shut down for reasons I couldn't understand. We worked through understanding one particular part and I felt T really gets what is going on there. We talked, as we do endlessly, about my feeling like all this stuff is a lie and not real and how I think I shouldn't indulge in any activities that meet those "supposed" parts needs or share things they are showing me that I think can't be true. T was reassuring that whether it is a completely disintegrated part or partially disintegrated feelings from a particular age, the feelings and unmet needs are real and not something I can fake myself into. We also talked about the unlikelihood of all the content that has been coming up just being there out of nowhere, along with corresponding feelings and reactions from beforehand that these "memories" make sense of...so I'm back to, even if it isn't 100% unassailable truth, it has to be worth exploring, because there is "not nothing" there.

The best thing I got out of yesterday was a kind of clearing that I can share with my T again and it doesn't feel like I'm "telling" and breaking things. I don't know how long that will last, but it's such a relief.