I dont know if this will be very helpful or not but this is honestly the way I would deal with it. I would freak out but still go to the appointment. I wouldnt be able to stop thinking about it and having the worse possible things going through my head. I would prepare for the very worst and decide exactly what I would say or do if the very worst actually did happen. And that way if the worst didnt happen I could just say what I feel at the time about it and be some what happy. But I always have to prepare for the worse so that I would be able to deal with it without completely breaking down and not know what to do. When I am in these hard situations (and my P threatens to terminate all the time)I go through the conversation and decide exactly what I would say when the worst happens, even if its just telling him to go screw himself and that I hate him.

That may not be the best idea of how to handle things but that is honestly how I deal with those things.

Hiya there Janedoe. I'm sorry things are so rough for you. I've thought a while about how to respond to you because i know that this isn't an easy situation, but I'm going to be really honest here and give my two cents. Please take this with a grain of salt, as I don't know the entire situation and I, indeed, am not you!

I DEFINITELY agree with pippi that you need to meet with your t, but I think you only need to see her in the presence of your dbt. He can shield you in some regard, and can at least be a witness so your primary t can't simply fault you for everything. Your primary t seems... unhealthy in the way she treats you. Your description of the relationship sounds abusive, and even if she offers to see you again, I think it would be wise to consider declining that offer. She seems dangerous, and needy, and I would NOT meet with her without the support of your dbt!

Further, I would go in with certain questions/comments prepared. Even if you can't verbalize them, maybe one of the t's can read them, or maybe you can read them. Based on your previous post, I would say things like

I've asked you not to text me or email me about XYZ, but you still do. Can you explain why do you not respect my boundaries when it comes to this?"
• Often, you don't respond to my comments in emails, but you continue to contact me, and do so abruptly at that. I really thrive on consistency, and your random ways of communicating with me are very difficult for me to cope with. Can you tell me why you do this?
• Can you please explain why you constantly threaten to terminate me? It's scary and I feel like I'm going to be abandoned at any moment. It doesn't make sense to me, and I'm always wondering what I have or haven't done that's going to make you react. Can you comment on that?

These are just a few examples, all of which I'm SURE are easy for me to suggest, but much harder to actually say. But i don't suggest these lightly Janedoe... not at all... because all of those things I mentioned, YOUR T SHOULD ALREADY KNOW!!! IMO, she is a wonderful example of how t's are NOT supposed to act. Your therapy has been on HER terms for WAY TOO LONG, and this is why I want your dbt to be there, maybe he will see some of the dysfunction and be able to help. If she has PROFESSIONAL accountability, things might change... things that might help you get around the troubles with the insurance company.

I know this all must be very daunting, scary, frustrating, awful, etc, and I'm sorry you're in this spot. But you are where you are, and if nothing else, you deserve to be in therapy with a competent therapist. It's okay to say you feel hurt and injured and confused, and it's possible to do all that without blaming. And even if you do want to run, you can acknowledge that in session and say things like "wow, this is really hard, and I want to run out the door, but I know that won't really get us anywhere." It's okay to WANT to freak and run... that is perfectly legit, i'd want to too! but like you said, running will only prolong this agony.

I hope this helps. Please let us know how it goes. Take good care of yourself and remember that you deserve more than ultimatums.

-CT

(((((janedoe)))))

Last August I was in a place very similar to where you are right now: After 8 months with my T, and one last session where he reacted much differently than I expected to something I told him, which he’d been encouraging me to talk about for months, I was facing a termination I didn’t want, where I had worked very hard and did not understand why the therapy was ending and I was not being listened to. I want you to know that I hear you and I really understand what an awful, painful place this is.

In my case, I made the choice to show up to the meeting. Like you, I was hoping for the best. Even though I knew I was being transferred against my wishes, I was at least expecting that we would talk about what happened in that last confusing session and there would be some good will in the transfer, that it would end on a positive note and there would be some explanation and some closure.

Well, the worst I could imagine DID happen. I was given only one session to “say goodbye” to my T, in front of the new T I had been assigned to. He was very cold and dismissive at the transfer meeting. I did not agree with his summary but was so upset I could hardly talk, let alone openly disagree, although I did my best to explain once again what I had thought we were doing in the therapy. He never smiled and clearly couldn’t wait to leave because he left after only half an hour with a brisk handshake with no eye contact. On top of that, the new T completely ignored that I started crying after he left and started drilling me with random questions, as if I had just walked in to the clinic that day. To say I was confused and deeply hurt, that I felt betrayed and sickened and wanted to crawl into a corner and whimper would be just a start on how it felt.

If it hadn’t been for the members of this board that I leaned VERY hard on during that time, I don’t think I would have made it. I posted at length on these boards through it all, and received so much insight and help in getting back out there and finding a new T. Thanks to them, I left that clinic and found the T I have today and the therapy is going in a very positive direction (see my other post about our session today). She is doing all the things I kept expecting and hoping my former T to do in the therapy.

Looking back now, I’m really glad I showed up to that transfer session, because I can look back now and know that I did my very best to make that therapy work. There is nothing I regret having done or having not done. There is nothing I could have or would have done any differently. For months I have micro-analyzed everything that was said in an effort to understand what happened. I’ve alternated between being angry at myself and being angry at him. But my current T is helping me work through that and I can finally say that it’s fading pretty quickly now, and being replaced by a little bit of progress in the areas I originally started going to therapy for. And it feels great!

I hope some of this is helpful, at the very least, to let you know that if the worst does happen, you are not alone, there are people on this board who can help you through it. I also hope it helps to know that some T-patient combinations just do not work and that it is not your fault. It is possible to find a better fit so that your efforts in therapy can go toward healing instead of disappearing into the abyss of repeatedly trying to fix the therapy relationship itself when you aren’t even doing anything wrong. Therapy is really not supposed to be like that.

Above all, as I have been told, don’t do this alone! Please let us know what you decide and how it goes.

More hugs (((((janedoe)))))
SG

P.S. I love CT’s suggested questions for you to take to the meeting. I had written down a similar set of questions with the same idea, but decided not to take them. I very much wish I would have now because once I got in there my mind went blank with fear. But they were very fair questions and I wish I would have had the chance to at least ask them.

Thanks

It helps so much to know I am not alone in this, and that there could be a better future down the road. I hope.

Pippi - I think your idea of preparing for the worst is wise.

Stummergirl - I have read your posts about what happened and it has given me strength to just keep taking this one step at a time and know it could end up better than it was. Maybe. I know your heartache so well and I am so encouraged you have a better fit now.

quote:

by CT: Further, I would go in with certain questions/comments prepared. Even if you can't verbalize them, maybe one of the t's can read them, or maybe you can read them

good idea CT! I can write questions that are in repsonse to the worst I can imagine, and about everything else, and then if I can't even say them, then I can just hand them to the T.
_____________________________________________________________

Questions, questions, questions... I have way more questions than can fit into an hour session. I'm trying to think through what would be the most important to ask about first.

If she says:

A.) she is terminating (and/or not going to see me for a long time)

just imagining, picturing, being there with her and her saying that… my reaction is so visceral. I have no words to ask any questions about all that has happened. It would be such a final blow. Here is the best questions I can come up to ask in that case. None of which would really help me have closure or answers… but it’s all I can think of to say in response to that.

- Why did you threaten to terminate when you were going to do that anyhow?
- How the heck could you do this to me? After I have trusted you?
- What am I supposed to do now? How and where am I supposed to get therapy?
- How am I supposed to trust again and believe a therapist again? How am I supposed to get past this?
- How could I have trusted you and let you screw me like this? How could I have believed you?
- ...?

None of these seem like good questions. What else would there be to say if she says she is terminating and/or won’t see me for a long time?

B.) she would see me again, for a couple of sessions

I would go ahead and have the sessions and tape record them. (Something she has suggested I do in the past – so I think it would be fine with her.) Then I think I could ask more useful questions, about what happened and why. I’d want to avoid an argument. I would just ask, sit back and listen. Not challenge, at least not right away, but just try to listen and see what she says. Then consider it… I mean I could totally be missing the boat on everything...

- Consistency is very important. What can be done so that you do therapy in a manner that is consistent and predictable for me?
- Why did you suspend all therapy in December just a few days after suggesting I needed to come in more often? That feels like a mixed message – what was the intended message that I missed?
- How am I supposed to stop fearing abandonment when you threaten to terminate all the time?
- What about my boundaries? How do those fit into the therapeutic relationship? Can you show me that you respect me having boundaries?
- ...?
_____________________________________________________________

As I try to write out what I would ask, all I really want to ask is: “what the heck are you thinking?!” Probably not the most helpful question.

Deep down, I think what I really want to do is just say, "You hurt me. Do you even see how? Do you even care? Please tell me you do. Please help me work through this. Please make this pain go away. Please show me I didn't trust you for nothing. Please..."

It already feels like my heart is being ripped apart just figuring out how to get through this. I'm concerned I'm going to be slammed with so much pain leaving this meeting no matter what I do. I trusted her. I still want to trust her!

I'm looking over emails and texts with this therapist for the past 6 months. I feel physically sick. It was a great relationship. But now, I feel like I am going to get sucked back into something really icky.

I trusted her. She wasn't this way for the first 8 months of therapy. I just don't understand why she turned into being so pushy and domineering.

I feel physically sick reading this stuff. I miss her and I am hopeful, yet I feel so invaded and betrayed by her. The more I read what she wrote, the more I am baffled. The more I don't want to meet with her again. I think my hope will just be stirred up, and my longing to make this work, to know I trusted in someone worth trusting, that she is not really doing this...

She is a good therapist. She teaches therapy at a local colege for goodness sakes. I just can't stop thinking, why would she do this? Why am I so deeply affected by it so much?

JaneDoe,

I know this is really painful and I am so so sorry you are going through it. You've done a really good job describing to us what's been going on. From the details you gave, it sounds like she changed when you started putting up what were healthy and reasonable boundaries. You asserted yourself in a kind and respectful way, and I'm guessing she felt threatened and tried to reestablish some kind of power over you, and now it's gotten unhealthy and out of control.

I know what it's like to circle over and over and over again trying to figure out why, why, why things are going wrong. What I was really doing (and I'm guessing you probably are, too, if you have a background of abuse or neglect from your parents) is that I was absolutely certain I had done something wrong in the therapy, and if I could just figure that out, then it would fix everything...just like we did when we were children, thinking that we were being hurt or neglected because there must be something wrong with us. It's an impossible situation because we're really not doing anything wrong, but we have to stay close or we'll die, as AG has explained so many times. So we feel that we must find a reason to blame ourselves so we can stay close.

Now I know I don't know you, but from the fact that you're motivated enough to be here, and from what you've said so far, I'm going to go out on what appears to be a pretty sturdy limb and say that this is not your fault! Her behavior is her responsibility. And whatever the reasons might be, it is not healthy. Even if you were the most challenging patient on the planet, it wouldn't call for the measures she's taken. This is not your fault, janedoe.

You are so affected by this because you took a huge risk to open up to someone and she is letting you down. And it's probably triggering the pain of having been let down long ago by your parents, so as painful as it would be by itself, it's also multiplied many times over. You are in an incredibly painful place right now and I hope you keep coming here and talking about it so that you can get support as you go through it.

I can't advise you whether or not to meet with her, but something that might take the pressure off is to remember that you ALWAYS have the choice. You really do not have to meet with her if you don't want to! She seems like she's trying to take away your choices, and that bothers me a great deal. I wish for you that there was another T outside of this situation you could talk to. Is there any possibility of that?

SG

thanks for the feedback, understanding, and amazingly kind words. I’m pretty sad tonight. I think this stuff with this T is stirring up a lot for me. But I'm encouraged by your posts. I will respond soon. Thanks again.

monte - Thank you so much for your kind words!

quote:

No matter how skilled they are in their field, they're still human and as vulnerable to illness as we are. Sometimes they stuff up...they let they're stuff get in the way and they stuff us up. It's not fair.

Yeah, this primary T is just human. I fear that I did trigger her own stuff. I think she felt like she failed me when she found out I got upset with a nurse and ran out of the room. The hospital and another agency that heard of what happened contacted her and told her she wasn’t doing enough. That’s when she started getting really controlling, and I set up boundaries, boundaries I had been trying to set up before I got emotional with the nurse, and then 6 weeks later after breaking down the nurse, I had a session in which I was most vulnerable, and then 3 days later she suddenly stopped care. I have been thinking about this for awhile and a couple of days ago I called her and left her a voicemail message saying that she didn't fail me, the therapy was working...

quote:

Imagine if you were hearing your story as someone else's...I'll bet you'd be a whole lot more gentle and sympathetic.

Yeah, I probably I would be.

I am discovering how much this echoes and is stirring up my deepest original pain. It is so visceral and so deep that sometimes it is hard to think straight, let alone with perspective.

Thank you for your kind words and understanding and prayers. It helped me to have some perspective in the midst of a really tough week with this.



Strummergirl – Thanks for your encouragement and feedback. Your words really helped me see this differently.

quote:

What I was really doing (and I'm guessing you probably are, too, if you have a background of abuse or neglect from your parents) is that I was absolutely certain I had done something wrong in the therapy, and if I could just figure that out, then it would fix everything...just like we did when we were children, thinking that we were being hurt or neglected because there must be something wrong with us. It's an impossible situation because we're really not doing anything wrong, but we have to stay close or we'll die, as AG has explained so many times. So we feel that we must find a reason to blame ourselves so we can stay close.

I think this is exactly what I am doing! I really want an easy way out. A solution. If it’s all my fault, then that’[s easy to deal with. I can just fix me. The reality is that it is likely her brokenness and my brokenness that is interacting in this horribly painful way. I want to stay close, but I can’t just fix me and make it all ok. It’s hard to accept that this is somewhat out of my control.

quote:

you ALWAYS have the choice.

Yes! Choice is what I feel like was gone. She sought to control, maybe out of her own sense of failure (I had a setback, the rest of the therapy was helping so much, and my decline since stopping therapy is evidence of it!). In her desire to make everything ok, it feels like she took away my choices – but she really didn’t. I can still choose how I respond…
The hardest thing is that I feel like my voice is gone. I want to control and fight back to get my voice back. I want to make things ok and not be broken and betrayed by this. I trusted her and I want that to be ok.

I think I am trying to hold on and let go at the same time. My heart just aches. So much fear and grief, mixed in with hope and deep longings.

Hi Janedoe...I, too, have been following your plight and even though I can't offer anything in the way of additional advice, I would like to send you many hugs and support...
(((((Janedoe))))) very sincerely, mlc

thanks mlc

So I’ve confirmed that I’m meeting with this (former?) primary T and the DBT T this Friday.
Every time I think of it, I turn bright red, as if I am embarrassed or ashamed, even if I am alone at home, like right now. And my hands shake.

Thinking of meeting with this T is pulling up deep hurts that have nothing to do with her – an apparently a lot of shame.

The shame part is a little surprising. I would have expected to feel loss, grief, abandonment and even betrayal. But shame?

A couple of months ago I read in a book called "Wounded Heart" that shame and self contempt are a way that we try to have control over pain and hurt done to us. Ironically, the last session I had with the primary T in December, we talked about this very idea…

In fact, in the book, it suggests making a collage of words about how abuse made me feel. I actually did it! I had done the collage as a way to cope, to express what I was feeling in the process of remembering trauma and talking about it. I was kinda proud that I expressed what I was feeling that way instead of worse ways of falling apart or stuffing it all.

Just doing the collage felt like a release. I struggled to find words to express what I felt. Something about looking through words in magazines and searching for words that fit with how I felt was… settling. I wanted to show the T. I wanted to show someone, and I was so scared to show anyone. I decided to show her anyhow. I went into the session and handed it to her. It was rolled up, she couldn't see it unless she unrolled it. She sensed my fear and didn’t open it. Instead, she questioned if I really wanted her to see it – I told her yes. She still hesitated, asking if I was sure. I was confused about why she hesitated – I was so busy trying to manage my fear in asking her to see it, that I wasn’t sure how to communicate that I was afraid for her to see it, but I wanted her to see it anyhow. I became ashamed that I had asked her to see it and said “nevermind…” and took it back. I just put it aside and we talked about shame and self contempt. (But not specific to the collage, just in general, as I had read about in the book.

As we talked, I built up confidence again. About 5 minutes before the session was up, I asked her to see it. She did, with much hesitation. She said “hmm, you think about yourself pretty negatively. This is very concrete.”

Sadly, it was actually rather symbolic for me, not very concrete. I didn’t have the courage to explain that. I lost all my words. It might seem silly, but the collage of words and pictures I had cut out of magazines felt like the most vulnerable thing I have shared with her. It was a reflection of the hurt in my heart. I felt ashamed and deeply embarassed that I wanted someone to know how I felt… I felt ashamed that I even wanted her to see it. Why did I want that and yet was so afraid of it? I hid the mixed feelings I had as best I could… She said she was glad I shared it, and we ended the session. She said I did a good job, and walked out.

That was the last time I saw the primary T, on December 10. Three days later she called and canceled all the rest of my appointments. Now I am going to see her again on Friday. I have no idea what to expect.

But the shame and icky feelings are running away with me already. I just think of seeing her, and I turn bright red. It’s not even verbal… (does this make any sense?)

4 days until I meet with her (yes, I am counting the days.) Right now, I don’t know what I feel about her. I do know what I feel about me.

ick.

why did I want to show her that stupid collage?! I still have it. I should throw it away with all the ick feelings!!!

Hi JaneDoe,

Yes yes yes yes yes!!! So much of this makes total sense to me. When therapy ended with my previous T I felt this very deeply at first, for several days, and then it seemed to come in surges...kind of like electrical shocks and aches combined...I also had the shakes and the turning bright red symptoms. I started to get periods of relief, and it came less and less, and now I don't have it at all. I didn't know what to call it at the time, I thought it was shock, but I think you are right, that it's shame. Like there must have been something deeply wrong with me if he got rid of me...but there were no words, it was a visceral thing.

This is an awful feeling, and I am so sorry, more than I can say, that you are experiencing it right now. I wish so much I could take it away for you! Because you do not deserve to feel this way. It really must be coming from somewhere in your past (where you didn't deserve to feel that way either but you didn't know that).

What you did to try to show your T how you feel on the inside is EXACTLY what I did with the former T (only with a different picture - I wasn't as creative as you, but very much understand using symbols to communicate when it's so hard to find the words), and I got the same feeling afterward: He didn't "get" it.

And it feels so disappointing because it's not something we normally tell people! You took a risk, and by not getting it, she also didn't get what an effort it was for you to show her that. There was nothing wrong with you in wanting to show her. She just didn't understand, which provoked more shame in you. I really understand how much it hurts to risk opening up like that and still to not be seen. I know it might make you feel like never opening up again, but please believe me that there are people out there, and T's out there, who do "get it"! You just had the really bad luck to get someone who happens not to get it.

JaneDoe, there is more I'd like to write but I have to go right now (I'm at work and break was over 5 minutes ago - and I'm the teacher so I have to show up ) but I just want to tell you with everything in me, please, keep talking to us and hang on to the truth which is that you have done nothing wrong here! These feelings will pass, they don't totally belong to the present day. They are symptoms of the injuries you went to therapy to heal, and instead you are being retraumatized through no fault of your own.

(((((JaneDoe))))) lots of cyberhugs to you - hang in there
SG

p.s. As much as this absolutely sucked going through...if sharing my experience with you helps you get through this...then I'm GLAD it happened to me.

Hi again,

Okay I've got a few more minutes...I also wanted to say how creative and courageous you were to make that collage. And I totally get how it made you feel "settled" and "kinda proud" when you were done...how it was a "release"...it feels so satisfying when you finally find a way to express what has been inexpressible for so long, doesn't it? Like, yes, that's IT. That's what I feel like inside. What that looks like, that's how it feels when I'm in that place.

Anyway I am really hoping for a turnaround with your T on Friday.

SG

stummergirl! I got your post last night and then just before I replied, my computer crashed Just knowing you know what this is like... oh, it helps my heart so much!!! thank you!!! (do tell more, if you want)

quote:

I know it might make you feel like never opening up again, but please believe me that there are people out there, and T's out there, who do "get it"!

yeah, I begining to see that - thank you!

It does really help to know that you know what this is like. All the weird fear and shame - just after trying to express, release... and it's good to know it got easier for you. I'm so glad


AG - that makes a lot of sense!

quote:

Part of the very difficult part of the work in therapy, especially when healing from attachment injuries, is repeatedly doing what terrifies us until we can build up enough experience of moving towards a caring other being a good thing, to offset the old beliefs about how dangerous it was.

Over the last couple of years, I have been trying to move closer in relationships in healthy ways - slowly, and carefully. It used to be that litterally walking in the door was SO hard, but after I did it about a billion times, then walking in the door wasn't so hard anymore. My brain learned on a very basic level that it's ok to walk in the door! Then the fear came up in taking the next step...

Of course, I hit bumps in the road, and this was a huge one.

One of the things I am finding to be so critical is to keep trying. Right now I am so tempted to run and hide and pull away from all relationships. When I do that, then the shame and fear with this T gets more intense. But when I keep trying, somehow, to connect, to keep staying in, then it's not so bad.

quote:

Her failure in attunement hurt you which has completely fired up the networks in your brain which hold those implicit memories of how dangerous it is to move towards your attachment figure. So to try and keep you safe, you're getting hit with all the shame.

Yeah, exactly. She understood I was nervous, but she missed WHY, and what I wanted (needed?)

I guess in a way, I just wanted to be seen, to be known, to say "I hurt."

oh I just realized something! Here I was, trying to say, "this hurt me," this is how I hurt. She missed it. I have long known that I struggle to get close in relationships for fear that if I say get close enough to be hurt, AND I say "I hurt," (even if that hurt comes from elsewhere), I will not be heard and actually hurt even more for saying "I hurt." (I don't know if that makes any sense at all...) She just saw my nervousness, and she didn't understand my need to be heard, to have it be safe to say, "I hurt." That's something I never got growing up with my first attachment figures, my parents. Saying "I hurt" was the basis for rejection and/or more pain and hurt.

ah, here I am again!

It's so visceral, so hard to shake the shame and fear. I let myself be vulnerable. It still feels so embarrassing to say I wanted that, but when I write it out and think of your responses, I see that it wasn't just about the collage, but my need to have it be safe to say "I hurt," which is deeply connected to my past, and that doesn't seem so foolish or silly to want to know that it can be safe to say "I hurt."

this is tough!

SG & AG - thank you for your responses. It certainly is making this difficult road less scary.

I’m supposed to meet with the DBT T and this (former?) primary T on Friday and the primary T sent me several emails today that I am just hurt and angry about. I just got the last one and I can’t even write what she said...

I felt like I was finally in a good place about meeting and prepared for meeting and all the emotions it would trigger. I felt like it was worth it and I should go through with it. All of that has been obliterated by an email from the primary T that feels like she ran over my boundaries and is so invalidating and icky that I just want to tell her to get out of my life!

Yet I know I am probably overreacting right now. I know I need to just chill and sit with this and THEN figure out what to do.

I am so exhausted by this emotional mess. I feel like my heart is being pulled through a shredder. Oh I want the tears to stop and move past this! I don’t know that I can hurt anymore about this. Everytime I think I have hit the deepest it can go, it goes deeper.

Frankly, if it wasn't for the stories I read here of you all, I think I'd give up on therpay for me. But reading posts here has given me hope and perspective and reminding me of truth that helps me stay in and not give up on all T's ever.

I'm glad for the DBT therapist. We met today about meeting on Friday. She didn't have any solutions or answers, but she did sit with me through my confusion and heartache. I wanted the solutions and answers! I think I also wanted her to step and protect me from this. I told her I wanted that, and didn't know what to do anymore. She really tries to take a gentle and non-judemental and accepting stance in what she does. It's kind of her style and personaility, and I think just how she is trying to be with me so that I can be less judging of myself in this. I also know she is trying to not get in the middle and be a supportive presence to me. I think she gets it - and she started telling me today that maybe I'm seeing it's not good for me to have this primary T is not the right fit. It was interesting she phrased it as something I am seeing instead of her opinion.

I think that gentle suggestion was her way of trying to draw me out of this. I told her I didn't want to know I trusted someone that could hurt me like this and I want it to be ok.

I think my heart is begining to accept that maybe it can't be ok with this primary T, no matter what I do, and that it's not all my fault. My head knows this isn't all my fault and is partly the primary T's stuff. My heart is just not ready to face that pain. I want it to be all my fault! Then it means I had control, it's fixable, I can at least prevent it from happening again!

my heart is just broken.

And in the end, I think what I needed most of all was someone to just hold it all with me. I needed that from the primary T and she just isn't there to do that. But in a way, the DBT therapist was today - and it kinda scares me.

wow, I am a rambling mess.

(((((JaneDoe)))))

There just aren't enough parentheses for me to communicate how much I wish I could comfort you right now. I'm so sorry for your heartbreak. It sounds like this primary T really helped you out in the beginning and of course you grew to care for her. The change in her behavior toward you has got to be terribly painful and I so much wish I could take it away for you.

Before I continue, I feel like I should include a disclaimer. Hearing what you are going through is triggering a strong emotional response in me. It feels like helpless rage at being hurt by the ones who are supposed to be helping, and then trying to get help and not being heard or not being believed. Seriously, I am just shaking with frustration, wanting to rescue you from this. This is my "stuff" and it has its roots in what happened with my parents, and was recently reenacted in many ways with my former T. In wanting to rescue you, I'm sort of reliving wanting to rescue myself or be rescued from a similar situation. I'm quite sure this is a big part of what I need to work through in my own therapy and I haven't done that yet. So I'm worried that my responses to you in this situation could be me overreacting out of my own stuff.

But I also think you need validation because what you are facing is extremely difficult. I really think your primary T is behaving in an unhealthy way, and I think you are here looking for (and deserving!) validation and support. So hopefully you will take what I say with a grain of salt, and hopefully others here will continue to respond and support you and if necessary will moderate what I say if it's too extreme.

That said...I do not think you are overreacting at all. Did the recent emails from your primary T seem to be a reaction to your meeting with the DBT therapist yesterday? Maybe it is extreme to say this but I'm going to say it anyway (see above disclaimer): Her behavior sounds threatening, harassing, and toxic. It seems aimed at trying to control you, take away your choices, keep you off-balance. Isn't therapy supposed to teach us how to have self-control, how to make good choices, and how to live in a balanced way? What she is doing seems to be not therapy, but "anti-therapy". In my opinion, what is happening with her is not your fault at all. It is all her "stuff". If that's going too far, well, like I said, maybe that's some of my own stuff.

You seem to be highly motivated to find healing in therapy. You are giving your primary T every benefit of the doubt and you want to believe that the problem is with you so you can fix it. Even though I think I understand where it's coming from (patterns laid down in childhood), I hate to see you blaming yourself for the way your primary T is acting. The fact that you're considering taking meds to cope with the anxiety it's causing you just blows me away. Maybe I'm wrong here, but if you have to take meds to cope with your T's behavior, then I think there is something wrong with the T. My stuff aside, I sincerely cannot think of any reason why it would be acceptable for a T to do what she is doing to you.

I'm very very glad to hear that your DBT therapist is trying to support you. I understand that she doesn't want to get in the middle. But it still upsets me that she's not being a stronger advocate for you. In my opinion, your T's behavior goes beyond simply not being "a good fit" for you. She doesn't sound like a good fit for anyone if she reacts so bizarrely to a patient setting perfectly appropriate boundaries in therapy. Maybe "not a good fit" is the most your DBT therapist can say to you without putting herself in legal jeopardy with the primary T. Maybe that is why she's being careful to phrase it as what you might be seeing, instead of her own opinion. But still...this angers me because both of them should be putting YOUR well-being first!!! Grrr...see what I mean...possibly my stuff again. Okay, trying to calm down...

I'm extremely glad that your DBT therapist will be there tomorrow during the meeting. Does she know about all the emails, texts, and voice mails from the primary T? Can you print out the ones she just sent you and bring them to the meeting so the DBT therapist knows what you are trying to deal with?

One good thing that will come out of this pain, no matter how it turns out: You are learning to be your own advocate, find your own voice, speak your own truth, and the fact that you are learning it in a very difficult situation will make you even stronger. You will become stronger for having gone through this. Maybe your DBT is holding back because she wants you to benefit from that. But you still need some support and I'm glad she's giving it to you.

I so hear you when you say you didn't want to know you trusted someone who could hurt you like this. That's EXACTLY how I felt when it all fell apart with my former T. There were so many times I continued to see him and open up to him when my fear was just screaming because I knew how vulnerable I was making myself. I was so hoping that he would not hurt me. I kept telling myself, it's okay, it's a good risk because he's a T and won't hurt you, it will all end up okay.

But then he did exactly what I was so afraid he was going to do. And it was really awful. There is something exquisitely painful about having taken a risk like that and having it turn out badly in exactly the way you were afraid it was going to. Kind of like jumping off a bridge with a bungee cord tied around your ankle, and the cord ends up being too long. As I was lying on the cement, I kept asking myself, why the frick did I do that? How could I have been so stupid? And yes, I've spent months trying to figure out how it can be my fault so there would be some way I could fix it.

But I want to tell you something that is dawning on me the past few weeks because I think it will give you hope (and hopefully I can explain it clearly because it's still in the early stages of development). I also want to thank you for sharing your experience because that's partly responsible for the realizations I'm having about my own! It is so much easier to see what's really going on in other people's situations, and responding to you is helping me so much to learn what I need to learn from my own. I hope that sharing it with you gives you some encouragement!

I am finally believing and accepting that the transfer from my former T wasn't my "fault". I am finally believing and accepting that I never had any control whatsoever over how my former T responded to anything I did or said. I am finally believing and accepting that his responses were not a reflection of me, they were a reflection of whatever was going on with him. This experience has taught me in a very real, visceral way, where "I" stop and "another" begins. And there is profound freedom to be had in giving up that perceived control of how others respond to me.

If I really internalize this at some point, it means I can be free to be authentic, to behave in a way consistent with my own values, living from the inside out, rather than trying to please others so that they will approve of me or take care of me. And I can be free to love others "with an open hand" (HB had a great post on this - I miss you HB!!!) realizing they have their own set of values that works for them, so if it's different than mine, I don't have to take it personally or condemn myself anymore (assuming, of course, that my values don't lead to behavior that infringes on the rights of others).

I can't tell you how huge it would be if I could really live this way. It would make the pain of the lesson more than worth it.

I do not see a rambling mess in your posts (although I understand why you feel that way). I see a woman who is conducting herself with grace and honor and truth in the midst of a very difficult situation. If you keep on doing that, everything will turn out the way it's supposed to. If it doesn't work out with this T, please try to believe (and I know it's hard) that it's no reflection on you! You will eventually find a T who is a better "fit" for someone as motivated as you are.

I will be thinking of you tomorrow! Please let us know how it goes.

SG

SG – I can so relate it’s almost creepy!

quote:

Before I continue, I feel like I should include a disclaimer. Hearing what you are going through is triggering a strong emotional response in me.

I have felt the very same way in reading the old posts of your story and some of the others here. It just brings up things for me and sometimes I just can’t even go there, let alone respond. I want to just say argh! stop! And realize it’s much out of my own stuff. I totally get it...

I loved your analogy with the bungee cord! Yeah, I totally feel like I just said ok, I trust you, I trust this cord will keep me from hitting the ground. Here I am smack on the pavement, broken in a million pieces… looking at her wanting to cry out “what have you done? why have you done this? how could you do this? I trusted you. You told me the cord would keep me from the ground and I felt all the fear and did it anyhow, just as you told me to do!”

quote:

It is so much easier to see what's really going on in other people's situations, and responding to you is helping me so much to learn what I need to learn from my own. I hope that sharing it with you gives you some encouragement!

I am finally believing and accepting that the transfer from my former T wasn't my "fault". I am finally believing and accepting that I never had any control whatsoever over how my former T responded to anything I did or said. I am finally believing and accepting that his responses were not a reflection of me, they were a reflection of whatever was going on with him. This experience has taught me in a very real, visceral way, where "I" stop and "another" begins. And there is profound freedom to be had in giving up that perceived control of how others respond to me.

Oh my gosh! Were you in on my conversation with my DBT therapist yesterday? I said almost the same thing to her about me yesterday! I actually said to her that I found a place online where others are working out how to do therapy, and do it well, and that by reading and posting, something is shifting in me. I said sometimes it's triggering and I get more upset, and yet I can so easily see what’s going on in others situations and realizing they are not so different from my own, and that has helped me see things that I couldn’t see in my own situation - and not just see it, but to have it really sink in... And I told her that one good thing is that through all this heartache I am learning to hold “where I begin and others end” and that I can’t control how the primary T responds to me. The primary T will see what she sees and responds to me how she will, and I can’t control that. I can just control me and how I act and respond in it all. All stuff I knew in my head, not my heart - but that is starting to really shift. (The DBT therapist was really supportive and thought it was really cool. I didn’t give her any details where or anything and she really supported not knowing where, and wanted me to keep coming back here as a safe place to be anonymous and connect with others dealing with different therapy/life related issues. She even said she wouldn't tell the primary T - ah, a relief!)

What you have said and shared really does encourage me. I do feel like just a mess. It warms my heart to know that it’s helping you see that no, it’s not your fault! Just as it was not my fault and I can’t control what my T does either.

Ah, such hard truths to really grasp and actually live out!

I love what you said about being free to be authentic and to love others with an open hand... that is what I long for too! oh it is just perceived control I have thought I had over this primary T... and there is such freedom in letting go of it.

Yesterday what the T emailed was so... bewildering. It was like wow, there really is nothing I can do. You will respond how you choose to respond. I can't control that. I am so mad and so hurt, but I can't control her, not even by blaming it all on me.

Thank you so much for your beautiful response.


AG – oh that is so good to be reminded of! Thank you so much!

What the T emailed yesterday felt like she was taking away any choices I could possibly have and even any freedom to even speak! It felt so authoritarian. I don't think I have an objective view on it. No, I KNOW I don't have an objective view on it! But it wasn't ok. She was saying that there would not be time to talk about how I felt and for me to ask many questions about her actions. We are meeting for an hour and a half and there won't be time to stop and even ask for clarification? right. I don't think so. I don't have to sit there and be talked AT.

I do have a choice. I do have choices she can't take away. I can't force her to be different. But I have the choice to say no, I need to talk and ask questions, and if that's not ok, I have the choice to even get up and leave. I have the choice to not meet. To not a
allow this in my life.

Yet, my heart screams out No! please don't leave me! please tell me how to make this ok! (ack! what am I thinking?!) Making that choice to walk away means walking through so much grief and pain. Yet, I think that the pain is inevitable. I might as well exercise the freedom and choice I do have.

I had to stay close as a kid to those that hurt me, and silenced my voice, who hurt me even for saying "I hurt." I did blame it all on me as a kid, figuring I could make it ok that way. It didn't work even then, which of course, as a kid, I blamed that on me too! I can see now that it wasn't all my fault back then. It's so clear. And I'm begining to see how much I want to do the same now.

I don't have to stay in this relationship with this T. It's so hard to admit I can't control her. I can't make it all better. I can control me and how I respond, but I can't control how she responds. In the end, that's up to her, and she appears not to be responding in a way that is helping me...

oh I am a mess. The battle inside me is so intense. I want to stay and I want to run and I want to do the freeing thing and say "hey, this is not ok and I don't have to stay for this." (If that is what I need to say.) I want to live in freedom that I have to not respond to my fear and pain by fleeing or fighting back or freezing or "fawn"ing (i.e. give in at all costs to try and make her happy) thinking I can thus control her response to me and make it all ok and not feel this pain!



I am so hurt, scared, and mad. Thank you for being so kind about my long rambling posts here. I am so glad for your feedback and responses. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

quote:

Were you in on my conversation with my DBT therapist yesterday?

Why, yes...I was the little fly on the wall...*buzz buzz*...

quote:

And I told her that one good thing is that through all this heartache I am learning to hold “where I begin and others end” and that I can’t control how the primary T responds to me.

I was just kidding, I wasn't really a fly on the wall in your session...so this is kind of freaky that we put it the same way!! But very cool, too. You are a WAY faster learner than me.

quote:

She was saying that there would not be time to talk about how I felt and for me to ask many questions about her actions.

Hmmm...a T who doesn't want you to talk about your feelings or question her actions.

Ahem...excuse me whilst I scream...EEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!

There, I feel a little better now. Not sure if I spelled that correctly.

Good GRIEF.

I very much like this statement you made:

quote:

I don't have to sit there and be talked AT.

Amen to that.

I love what AG said, comparing and contrasting the past and the present to see the power of choice you have now. That was awesome, AG!!

(((((JaneDoe)))))

SG

Hi Janedoe -

I just want to echo what the others are saying here. You are doing such an amazing job with this. Your primary T sounds so far out of line and out of control with herself, and I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. I think therapy with an unstable T (and I feel quite sure that's what it is) has to be one of THE most emotionally threatening experiences a person could go through.

I don't think you're a mess. I think you are doing a beautiful job of feeling and being real and responding appropriately to a hideous situation with all the conflict it brings up. I hope it gets better for you real soon.

J

ok - i just have to post this, maybe it will help me not go totally crazy about it.

I sent the primary T an email asking her "to treat me like an adult and to make it really clear to me that you are. With adults you dialogue with them and you explain things and you have two way communication. I am a capable adult and you have said I am, so I really need you to treat me that way. I won't be checking email before we meet. I look forward to seeing you tomorrow."

The primary T called just a few minutes ago. My mom was on my cell phone so I asked my mom to stay on the cell phone and I put the primary T on speaker phone on another line so my mom could hear… somehow, I just wanted someone else to hear anything she said.

The primary T told me I “have to understand” that tomorrow she will start off talking, not me, and there won’t be time for me to ask questions or talk about other things. “I’m is going to explain where where things are at and where they are going from here, and you will need to listen.” And she reiterated "there won’t likely be time for you to talk about anything, we need to get through what I have to say.” (what the heck?! We are meeting for 1.5 hours and she is going to talk AT me for 1.5 hours?!) She finished by saying that she has spoke with the DBT therapist "at length" and the DBT T is “fully supportive” of this and "has informed you of this and you need to accept this." She also said the DBT T is there in order to "enforce this" and "later answer questions I would have."

I said “um, well the DBT therapist has said you and I were going to talk about where we are at and where to go from here and I will look forward to that and will see you tomorrow. I gotta run.”

The primary T started talking again, “no, you need to understand I am going to talk and I have spoken with (DBT T) and she is fully supportive that you will need to just listen and -”

And I said interrupted and said, “I gotta run. See you tomorrow, bye.” Then I abruptly hung up on her.

WHAT THE HECK?!

The DBT therapist told me yesterday that she
hasn’t spoken with the primary T since December... and she told me nothing about the primary T will speak and I will listen and there will no be time for me to ask questions or speak or talk about anything I need to talk about.

I called and left the DBT T a message saying “the (primary T) says you are fully supportive of no conversation no dialogue no me speaking tomorrow and asking any questions or anything? and my mom heard this, that the primary T says you are fully supportive of this and have been talking with her about this, and what the heck is going on here? This is not ok. This is therapeutically abusive. And you support this? And you have talked with her today saying you fully support this? How could you?!...” and then I started to cry uncontrollably and hung up and threw up just because I was crying so hard.

I don’t know what to think right now. Every fiber of my being is feeling like this is really not ok.

Somehow when the primary T just emailed, it seemed like well, it’s a very short email, maybe I’m missing the point and maybe there is more to this... and at least the DBT T will be there and knows me and will help me navigate this. But then when the primary T called, made it so clear, and says the DBT therapist is fully supportive... FULLY SUPPORTIVE?!

It just doesn’t seem like the DBT therapist to be supportive of that. She even told me she was ok with just the primary T and I meeting or meeting in a different place where I would feel less weird about meeting with two T’s at the same time. She said all kinds of really kind and understanding stuff about how this is for me. She said she would understand if I would need to take breaks or stop and ask questions. The DBT T said she “really respected how I was trying to walk through this well and ask for what I need to handle seeing the (primary T) again.” She said that, just yesterday. She was so respectful of how it’s weird for me to have two T’s at once (which is something that is triggering of past stuff in and of itself) and then here I am and the primary T is actually like using that there are two T’s who expect you to just come in and listen and not talk in this very power tripping way... the very thing the DBT t was trying to do whatever she could so that I wouldn't feel initimated about meeting with two T's.

I don’t know if this is the DBT therapist leaving me out of the loop or totally changing abruptly (that's what happened with the primary T) or if this the primary T not really being honest about what the DBT therapist position is and what she does "fully support" – I tend to think it maybe this is the primary T not being honest or maybe just totally misunderstand wht the DBT is supporting, but that is starting to get beyond just a bad relationship...

How can anyone think this is ok? How could this be ok? This is not ok! The primary T teaches psychology! The primary T... oh dear...

Being domineering is one thing, but if this primary T is now trying to use the DBT T to be domineering and abusive... and with someone with my past, of all people? It feels like an abuse of power.

I keep thinking this can't be happening. How can this be happening? I must be overreacting, missing the boat. But she was so clear! This can't be real... I must... whoa... I don't even think I can think in a straight line right now. I keep telling myself calm down.

I feel physically sick.

oh SG, Jones... Thanks for the encouragement!!!I'm crying and smiling right now too. It helps to know I'm not alone.

(SG, yeah I think you spelled it right!)

I don't have to be talked AT. By anyone! I think I will go, and make that very clear tomorrow. I don't want anyone to be able to claim well, I refused to meet. I will face this.

I wrote down on a piece of paper that I will hand both of them when I first see them:

"I'm here to have a conversation about whatever you and I need to talk about. I'm not here to be talked AT today. I have a voice and I have to have room to use it. If either you act like it is ok to talk AT me, I'm leaving. Period. You decide what you want to do with that. I can't control you. But I can control me and I don't have to subject myself to being talked AT. It won't help you or me. I have a voice and it matters. Your voice matters too. Dialgoue is essential to effective communciation and critical for me to understand what you have to communicate. I will glady talk WITH you about what you feel is important to communicate about. You can choose to do with that what you will."

hmm... or something like that... I'll have it written and hand it to them so I will be sure to communciate it! Then I'll know what I need to do by what they do with it. I have a feeling that either I or the primary T won't be staying long. I'm so devastated about that, about all of this, but it is better to live in freedom than keep diving deeper into this mess.

JaneDoe,

Un-be-liev-a-ble.

The hell that your primary T is putting you through is doing something for me that I didn't think was possible. It's making me grateful that my former T abruptly terminated with me when he felt he could no longer help me, instead of dragging out the pain for months, bullying me with mind games and control tactics.

I'm not surprised you threw up. I feel like throwing up too. What a circus.

My first hunch about what the primary T said about what the DBT T said is that she's making it up, trying to knock you off balance again.

Can you block the primary T's number & email address so she can't call, text, or email you?

I like the note. You are taking a very powerful position and refusing to be intimidated. I really understand what you mean about not wanting them to be able to say you refused to meet them, about wanting to face them.

Still, with all you have been through, you have my utmost admiration if you actually go to that meeting tomorrow. I do believe the only thing that can be salvaged from this situation is your dignity, and you've had that all along in spades.

Can Mom go with you?

Ugh. I'm so sorry, JaneDoe.

SG

good idea to block her number! I had already blocked her from my cell, she called on my landline. I'm going to call that phone company and have it blocked too. I can block her from email too. That will help stop this.

Some really old trauma stuff, abuse of power in horrible ways - criminal ways, by people I should have been able to be safe with and trust, is being triggered and surfacing in a massive way. I told my mom a little of what started coming to surface, and she heard me on the edge of losing it... so she's concerned. She is in another state and is school teacher, but she just told me that she called in sick for tomorrow and took the the day off. She said she just wanted to be availible to support me tomorrow if needed, and could be on speakerphone on my phone when I meet w/ them if I wanted that (I think I do). She said whatever I wanted, she just would be free to even just to talk afterwards. She is so sweet! As a kid, she didn't protect me, but she has really changed since then and seeing that she just so wants to be here and protect me, even as an adult, well, it feels pretty comforting. Even as an adult

Worst case senario, if I start to get flooded again, I guess I could go and ask to speak to the DBT T alone first and tell her I have to reschedule. (ugh, I rather just get this done with.) Otherwise, I'm gonna face them. Set my boundary. See what happens. I hope it will help me let go.

I'm gonna miss this T. I guess maybe someday if she changes, maybe I'd see her again. But not now, not for a long time. I'm gonna miss her, and all the good things that used to be there in the relationship, so much! It's gonna take awhile to grieve this. And to trust again? oh... I think of you SG, and I hope I can be so courageous as you to try again and to trust again!

I'm wrapped up in a blanket and was reminded of one time I did that and had this wonderful conversation with this primary T on the phone... I want that back. But it's gone. Whatever is going on with her isn't good for me - probably not for her too

Hey JaneDoe,

It sounds like you have a ton of pain in your past...I'm so sorry this experience is triggering it, when you started out wanting to heal it. I know it will be a while until you can trust enough to try again, but I so much hope you can find another T who knows how to help you, so you can heal! They really are out there, and when you find one, I think you will be amazed at the difference.

That's pretty incredible that you can have a good relationship with your mom, and that you can allow her to give you some support and protection now. I'm glad she's going to be there "with" you today! I am thinking of you and wondering how it's going.

As far as the tears, and the sadness...I know, it's hard. I felt sad for a long time after things ended with my T. It's like I had to grieve all my hopes of how I thought therapy with him was going to go. I made so many connections during that time, had so many thoughts and ideas I wanted to share with him, get his take on them. They built up way faster than I could ever get them out in session so I wrote them down in a journal. I had this idea that he would have loved how it turned out, too...if only he would have cooperated. I would have learned so much, healed and moved on, and he would have learned some things too and would have become an even more brilliant therapist. I thought the pedestal I had picked out for him was quite flattering. How could he not dig that?

It will take a while to work through your sadness over this...be gentle with yourself...and come here and talk about it so we can help you through it.

SG

p.s. I want to add that I admire the compassion you can have for your primary T even as you're going through this.

I went to the appointment. Only to find out when I got there that the primary T canceled. oh I am so done. The DBT therapist said she thought it was good to cancel but after we talked aboutit she said we need to reschedule this ASAP.

I just melted into tears. I litterally crawled up in the fetal positoin on her cough - I cried and said I just want to feel safe. She was very compassionate. I think she is confused and doesn't know what to think or make sense of this - but she got that t his is really hard on me, and she really understood the volume of old trauma this is stirring up.

Maybe it was good it was canceled. Yet, I told her I need this be to done. Over. And I do. I need this oput of my life ASAP. This is the 8th time she has canceled this meeting.

My mom was on the phone and almost started yelling out of anger that the primary T canceled.

The DBT t said she is going to email the primary T (and copy me) that it needs to me resheculed ASAP, and in advance the primary T needs to write out everything she was going to talk AT me about anyhow.

And she mostly just stayed me with while I cried, and said this is all the stuff this is bring up - even just the canceling. again.

ugh.

The DBT therapist agreeded we need to get this done and move so I can begin to move on.

She aslo sassured me that there was no way she agreed with what the primary T said about what her role was and that there has been a "misunderstanding" by the primary T of what the DBT t expressed to her. Yeah, I'll say... but that helped to hear. SHe wanted to get into the misunderstanding but honestly, as I told her, I just didn't even want to know right right now. I was just overwhelemed with grief. How could she abandon the meeting AGAIN?!

I told the DBT T that I think the primary T has issues she needs to work out for herself and I need her out of my life ASAP until she is in a better place, and to just get this done, so I can move past this. She really agreeded with that.

SG - thank you for your kind words.... oh, I am so exhausted. I want this to be over.

((((((JaneDoe)))))))

quote:

How could she abandon the meeting AGAIN?!

She is afraid of you because you stood up to her last night. Also because she knows she lied to you about what the DBT said and knows better than to face the DBT. She is exerting control in the only remaining possible way: by not showing up.

Right along with your mom, I'm just furious on your behalf. Eight times? I can't imagine what is going on with these people. If the primary T ever does actually show up (highly doubtful), she will only try to bully you, and you will be hurt. If she doesn't show up (more likely), you will experience the pain of abandonment again, and you will be hurt. For the ninth time.

From what you have described I just do not see any benefit to setting up another meeting. You have gone way, way above and beyond what any patient should have to tolerate.

I know I shouldn't tell you what to do or give you advice, but if I may make a strong suggestion ( )...(and please chuck this out the window if it's not helpful)...what would probably be most beneficial and healing for you (and most keep you from further harm) would be to find another T as soon as possible to help you through the pain this has caused, even though trusting someone else is the last thing you feel like doing right now. I know you like the DBT therapist, but after allowing this to happen eight times, it appears that she is not a strong enough advocate for you. She is trying too hard not to offend the primary T, who is behaving atrociously, at your obvious expense, when you are trying so hard. After eight times I really do not understand why she is still hesitating.

quote:

I told her I need this be to done.

I really, really think it would be okay for you to refuse to set up another meeting, even if the DBT therapist doesn't agree. That way it can be done and you can move on.

I really hate that you are having to go through this. Please don't go through it alone, okay?

(((((Hugs)))))
SG

Janedoe, I am SO glad you are here talking this out on this board, because you really need to hear as much as possible that this is NOT your fault.

She sounds, to be honest, totally bonkers. There's nothing wrong with that, but someone professional needs to get her the hell away from clients, and fast. How many other people is she doing this to? You are articulate, brave and self-aware and she is putting you through terrible trauma. There will be others who may not have been able to even find any kind of bearing with this yet. I am NOT minimizing your experience here - this is a nightmare - it just freaks me out that yours is probably not the only experience.

When I read about her phone call, it occurred to me that she would quite likely cancel. As others have said, the ph call was an attempt to silence you in advance so you didn't reveal her instability and abusive practice to the DBT T. She has been trying this kind of silencing for a long time - that's what all the obsessive emails, calls, rules, and cancellations are about. I think that as the meetings approach her fantasies that she can control what you say crumble and she starts to feel out of control. It's a very paranoid and unwell approach.

She is an unwell person who doesn't know or hasn't admitted to anyone else that she is unwell. She is not getting any treatment or help, and she is actively hurting others (possibly lots of others) as she tries to keep her reality under wraps.

I am glad your DBT T is starting to get a sense of the picture - but I agree with SG that this needs intervention to protect you, NOW, not another exposure to her cycle of control and paranoid abandonment.

Can you have some written communication with the DBT T about this situation? I know you have had really bad experiences with this, but it seems to me that the magnitude of the situation is too much to communicate in an hour given the emotional stuff you have to process to do it. Would you be able to tell her you are concerned about the primary T's ability to practice safely, and that you want to write down all the facts for her?

If you did that, even if she didn't act fast to help (i.e. getting you out of harm's way and taking professional action to report on the primary T) you could take the next step of taking those facts to someone else who WILL help you fast.

Thinking of you.

I spoke with the DBT therapist and my mother. It's my fault they canceled.

Last night I fell apart so bad I dissociated and called the DBT tehrapist hyertically crying twice, not just once. I didn't know that until today.

This morning the DBT t called me and the tears came again. I said "how could you say this is ok?" She said "I think you misunderstand the email." I had forwarded it to her but she said she didn't have it. I read the email word for word. She told me there was no way the primary T would say wuch a thing and of course she would not support it if she did and I "should have known that."

She confimed she had not had any conversation with the primary T, except for one that was before the appointment I had with her on Wednesday and that there was no way she would be fully supportive of not talking and what the primary T told her was not the same as what the primary T said in my email and voicemail. I became hyterical again.

I told the DBT T and the primary T that I needed 15 minutes to talk alone with the DBT T first before all three of us met.

When I arrived I was told the primary T canceled. I cried, I said what happened?

She said the primary T canceled. Then she asked why I was so upset. I told her what it triggered, why I was so hurt... I curled up in the fetal position and cried, saying I just want to be safe I just want this over.

The DBT t said during the session she would never again have any communication with the primary T that I was not copied on or present for. She said she would email her and ask her to type out what she would have said and I was supposed to listen to and then reschedule a mesting.

I left.

I took more antianxiety medication when I left. Too much. not on purpose... I just felt I had to stop the tears at any cost.

Then I got an email that my health insurance is pressing false reporting charges based on what the oprimary T told them about me being distorted and unable to treat, and a faker. (WHAT?!) I became undone. I called a law proffesor I know, and I could not say much. I could not stop the tears. I took more meds to try and calm down. I begam to be too medication to even speak well. She called the DBT t very concerned.

The DBT T called me, and I went to see my primary care doctor who took me in her car over to the hospital down the street. They gave me four bags of IV fluids and nausea medications and watched me until the meds wore off.

I left and the DBT t called me when I got home. She told me then that she had told the primary T that I got upset with her and they BOTH made the decision that she should not come and we should not meet because of how last night I was so flooded with past truama and "clearly UNABLE to stay regulated." She then expressed that when we did talk I continued to not be regulated because I crawled up in the fetal position on her couch proving that I was unable to meet without becoming dysregulated.

She said the session was "a total waste."

a total waste.

She said that "you could not regulate yourself enough to stop crying and have a productive conversation about it. You just kept talking about how hurt you were and that you got flooded."

She said that she could not handle how I broken down "hysterically crying on my voicemail and "then you still cried when we talked this morning."

Even when we met, you were "so hurt and angry and could not even stop talking in circles."

Then she said she did not know if she could see me again after this. She was "too exhausted after what you did today. You just are incapable of staying regulated."

Ahe said that she did not think that meeting would ever happen again. "You clearly have no ability to regulate your emotions enough to have any kind of productive conversation about this."

She said after emailing the primary T, she will not be involved in anything having to do with the primary T and doesn't know if she will see me again either.

Then my mom called. She has almsot yelled about the cancelation in the meeting. She defended me. But now, tonight, she said she had "no idea why" I "would have been dysregulated" and this was all my fault. She said she had "no idea" why I got upset last night and then again cried in the session. "you could have just gone in and listened, and who cares if you were talked at or lied to - at least you could have listened. Now you had no way to talk to anyone. So what if they would make sure you would not speak? At least you would have met and could have finally heard what they have to say." and "I just have no idea why you would have gotten so upset." and she talked about what I "deserved" for "dysregulating." "I took the day off for you (jandoe) so that you could meet and I could speak to them and help you but you RUINED it."

I wanted to scream at her, THIS IS PTSD - WHAT I AM IN THERAPY FOR!!!

I told my mom I had flashbacks about... and reffered to a sexual assult by a person in a position of power and authority (who was also a mental health care provider in a regular hospital setting - now in prision.)

She said "so what? that is not now." I told her yeah, of course, but that fear, the abuse of power thing, that triggered me to have flashbacks to that. She finished with "There was nothing to get upset about like you did."

I was so flooded last night with flashbacks and grief. I cried and could not stop when trying to ask the DBT what happened here... and then when I went in and it was canceled, I...

I ruined everything.

I tried to explain the flashbacks that were triggered and why - to both the DBT T and my mom, and my mom said "so what?" and the DBT T said that is evidence you are not able to stay regulated. (WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?)

I was in therapy to work on being more regulated... I cried, albeit hysterically at times, but I was calm when I came in to meet.

But I ruined everything. I am a monster. I am too sick for anyone to help. I cried, albiet very strong or hysterically at times, but I still talked. but I am so... I ruined it all. That is clear. They told me. Just now in the last two hours.

I was so prepared. So ready. And they canceled. And I just did not stop the tears...

oh what have I done? I am really truely a monster... for real. that is what I am. this was my fault. how could I have done this?

I was so ready to handle the meeting, even flooded. Tnen there was none and I ruined it what little I had left. I ruined the meeting. I ruined everything else.

I failed.

I'm so sorry.

JaneDoe,

I know you are hurting very badly right now, but please listen, okay?

What they are telling you is NOT TRUE. You are NOT a monster, you are NOT too sick for therapy!!!

You are right to question EVERYTHING they are telling you. They are twisting everything and you are right, it doesn't make sense. Please hang on to that right now!

These T's do not know how to help you so they are turning it on you. And they are profoundly wrong for doing so.

You are right, you are seeking therapy because of PTSD and your reactions are exactly what would be expected for a patient with PTSD. A PTSD patient goes to therapy to learn how to regulate their emotions! That is the T's job, to teach you how to regulate, and it takes a lot of time and skill and a T who knows what they are doing.

These T's do not know what they are doing, so they are faulting you for the very thing they should be helping you for!

PLEASE DO NOT BELIEVE THEM! They are wrong, wrong, wrong!!

The same absurd logic was used on me, too, when my T didn't know how to help me (although please believe that your experience is making mine look like a cakewalk - I cannot believe how cruel these people are being to you). I was told that my "feelings were getting in the way of the therapy". Okay, well then, you might as well say "You can't have therapy until your emotional problems are gone! When you no longer have emotional problems, then I'll be happy to see you." Translation: "I don't know how to help you, but I'm way too proud to admit it. I'd much rather you blame yourself instead."

At one point I pushed back and said "no, it's just that my T didn't know how to help me find the clinical meaning of my feelings." She said, "Well, I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for." Translation: "Get lost. You're making us look bad."

My feelings cannot possibly get in the way of my therapy. My feelings "ARE" THE WAY! Why else would I be going to therapy? The same is true for you.

JaneDoe, is there anyone else nearby that you can go to for help? I am so worried for you right now. I'm sorry if this is kind of all over the place...I'm going to post this now so at least you have something of a response and I will post more later.

SG

More thoughts, just trying to counteract the lies you are being told:

This is NOT your fault.

The DBT's backpedaling about the email from the primary T is reprehensible.

The only reason the session was a total waste is because SHE DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO HELP YOU. She behaved like a coward and - here, I'll use another phrase I learned the hard way - "threw you under the bus". You showed up and did exactly what you were supposed to do. She is at fault. Not you.

Of course you could not regulate yourself. They are assaulting you and you are reacting in a very NORMAL way, as one who is assaulted. They are in the wrong for assaulting you. And then to fault YOU for being injured, when it was they who injured you - you do not want to know what I want to say about that. I'd probably get kicked off the forum for saying it!!!

Your mother's change of attitude is heartbreaking, another betrayal on top of everything else. I do not understand it and my heart just aches for you, but she is wrong - you haven't ruined a thing, JaneDoe. That is another lie.

The only monsters here are the ones who are hurting you. From your posts you appear to be courageous, insightful, intelligent, and sensitive, and that's just for starters. What is being done to you - that is what's monstrous.

I wish there was more I could do!! Posting again...

SG

SG - I am glad for your response. I don't have much to say.

I'm doing a little better now, and I'll be ok. I do think I'm gonna need help with this. I don't know where to go for help. The insurance made it hard to find any other options (and i
have been loooking for three months). All T's freak me out a bit right now. I do have a friend who is a psychologist - and I'd never see him for therapy, but i know him well as a friend, and he has seen my struggle, maybe I'll ask him for ideas of where ...

JaneDoe,

I'm so glad to hear you are doing a little better.

It is no wonder all T's freak you out right now and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it takes a little while to find one who is a good fit. In the meantime, keep coming back here and posting. (and then, keep coming back and posting about how therapy is going with your new T )

One good thing about the problems I had with my former T - it drove me here to find out what I was looking for in a therapist. Once I knew that, recognizing a T who would be a good fit was a WHOLE lot easier! She was only the second T I interviewed after the termination. The feeling I had upon meeting her was overwhelming RELIEF. She could really tell from my body language in that first session, the more we kept connecting and she kept saying the kinds of things I've heard here - I just sort of kept collapsing into the couch with relief. I've told her several times, I wish I would have found her at the beginning of my therapy "quest".

But then, I probably wouldn't appreciate her as much...so even the bad can work for good.

I really hope my reactions above were not too over the top...I'm just really angry at how you're being treated. You are highly motivated to heal and you are being treated so badly...it just infuriates me and I wish I could stop it for you.

I do believe you when you say you will be okay...you really will find what you need. I hope your psychologist friend has some good recommendations.

I hope you are able to get some much-needed and well-deserved rest.

Good night, JaneDoe -
SG

JaneDoe
I have been following your terrible experiences for a while now, silently without adding to the forum because I feel the others have been so amazing with their responses and I felt inadequate, but I am so upset and incensed by what you have had to go through that I had to write, if only to let you know that others are with you in your truly difficult times.
I cannot believe that somebody who is meant to be a professional caring person (teaching others too !!!) could have let you experience even a tiny part of what you have had to endure. She has totally retraumatised you and that is unforgivable.
And of course now you blame yourself, as we all do over everything, because we have been conditioned that everything is always our fault. The option of it not being our fault is sometimes more scary. . . But you must know that this was indeed not your fault, not one tiny part of it. Your past is not your fault and never will be, you are just left with the fallout of others wrongdoings and that is no way your fault.
I am glad things are fractionally easier for you - I hope you can find some genuine help soon from another T - you need to be supported through this terrible experience. Keep strong and keep posting. There are so many people rooting for you.
starfish

Thanks. I'm so glad for the feedback here. It's good to read others reacting to this like it isn't ok what's happening.

I don't know what to say...

just got an email from the primary T that she sent to someone else and asked them to email me (obviously realizing I had blocked her form my email)

I'm going to post what happened here hoping that it will get it out of my head and help me feel a little less unreal.

It was a simple and short email. She says that she notified my insurance that she would not ocntinue seeing me after December 31, 2009 if they did not pay her in full for all the services she rendered to that date. She can no longer continue seeing me and is terminating because she has not been paid in full. And she finished by repeating to me that no, she is not going to send me the unpaid bills and that she is emailing me so that I get her termination notice in a timely way.

(I knew of this and my insurance repeatedly assured me they paid her, in full. She stopped seeing me Dec 10 so it's all messed up on so many levels. Yet she again in this email this morning said that she told them she would stop continuing to see me after Dec 31. She stopped before. Why this email now, this morning?

continue seeing me? what? she has to see me in order to continue that or stop continuing to see me!

Nothing changed about paying her, nothing changed about money, between thrusday when she talked of meeting on friday and this morning. I told her I was going to self pay for the appointment if the insurance didn't.

It's an excuse. It's b.s. even *I* see that.

If she so badly needed to be paid before anything else (and I agree she needs to be paid) then she would have been willing to GIVE ME A BILL or tell me how much she needs to be paid - not just refuse to do so then suddenly say oh, I've not been paid so I won't continue seeing you.

I even found an legal advocate who works with the insurance extensively that she suggested I seek help from and when I did and he offered help to make sure she was paid, she refused to work thorugh him, indictaing she could take care of it herself. yeah, good job primary T. looks like you handled it really well. WHY THE HECK DID SHE REJECT FREE BILLING HELP THAT WOULD HAVE MADE SURE SHE WAS PAID?!

I emailed the insurance and said YOU TOLD ME YOU PAID HER. I emailed the primary T and said YOU HAVE TO TELL ME WHAT MONEY YOU WANT IN ORDER TO BE PAID. NO ONE CAN READ YOUR MIND.

ok... now I was just venting...

The insurance responded (yes on a Sat morning, and within minutes - creepy) that I needed to read the email from her again and see that she said she was not paid in FULL. so I emailed back - YES - YOU TOLD ME YOU PAID HER IN FULL AND I HAVE THAT RECORDED CALL AND LETTER FROM YOU STATING THAT. FIX THIS NOW.

(ok, yeah, I have lost all patience - in FULL.)

And then I blocked their email too. About time these people start using stamps to communicate this nonsense to me.

Maybe I should just be relieved. Maybe I should tell my insurance to not pay her a dime further. Let her send me the bill for once. Go ahead. Let her sue me for it even! or she can sue the insurance. or just be screwed out of whatever mysterious amount of money she wants.

I think this is an excuse. Nothing changed about money, about what she had or had not been paid, between thursday when she talked about meeting on Friday, and this morning.

I want this to be my fault! and it's getting to be sickeningly clear, I really can't do anything to have her be different. I can't pay bills she doesn't tell me about or pay money I STILL don't know she wants. What? Am I supposed to read her mind and magically know the money she wants? am I just supposed to write a blank check? ok, even I am not that crazy.

I spent all night fighting very dark places in my mind... I can't say I handled it well...

and I woke up to this.

I keep thinking I am not a monster, I am not a monster, I...

I am filled with giref and hurt and shame and icky feelings beyond all reason, and I can't even seem to numb them out like I could before. (which the primary T had once told me is progress to not numb out - and yeah, maybe... but I'm a mess.)

I miss her. Not this nightmare, but the good time with her. oh so much. what happened? how could this be happening?

I am not a monster, I am not a monster...

oh I have so much I want to say in response to everyone... I can't just yet. your words just really help my heart more than I can quite process or even express

one thing though i think i can say, AG, you said -

quote:

I have often spent time crying in sessions sometimes unable to speak for 10 minutes at a time. I can count on one hand the number of sessions I've made it through without crying

I'm not the only one who has been there and cried like that? I thought I was just so...

when I stop hating me, and stop freaking out, or numbing out, all I think is I want to be safe to cry. or just safe at all... or even just safe enough to cry so hard I can't talk. Intellectually, I'm not sure that's the most "unproductive" thing in therapy.

but I guess my heart needed to hear that too.

JaneDoe
You are not a monster in any shape or form, but what is happening to you is monstrous. So sorry that the night was so bad for you, surely always the hardest time to get through and when all the self doubt is at it's greatest and everything feels overwhelming. It's horrid.
Numbing out helps I know and it's scary when you can't do that like you used to, it feels like an escape route has been taken away. But you are strong even though you don't feel it. Keep reminding yourself that you are not the one in the wrong and you can come through this.

I hope, like AG, that you might find someone soon to talk and offload to, who can truly be there for you and guide you through and out of this. Please keep posting,
Starfish

Hi JaneDoe,

I love all the support you're getting about how crying is healing! It's so true.

Get this: My current T has told me a number of times that my tears are beautiful!!! Like AG said, they are a form of communication. Just as valid as any other, and just as important!

For many of us, we have a goal to be able to cry MORE in the therapy!

Also, I think tears are a physiological reaction to strong or painful emotions inside of us. It is a way of releasing them, letting them out. Can you imagine if we held all that inside? We'd implode!

AG...thanks for sharing that about the McDonald's commercial...my weakness is figure skating...

SG

JaneDoe,

I have a whole new appreciation for the act of crying...even uncontrollable, "hysterical" crying. Before I started therapy, I probably cried twice in maybe 20 years. Now I cry pretty easily (and I'm a guy!). It doesn't always make me feel better, but I take it as a sign that I'm starting to finally feel.

So, good for you for crying .

Russ