Hi Lorena and welcome to the Board.

I think you have every right to confront your P about his "cold" responses to your emails. But also I think it's important to discuss his policy for contact out of session. How does he handle email? Should you expect a reply? Does he accept or return phone calls? Does he have a service or use voice mail? All of this is important in laying the groundwork for doing the therapy. I would think that contact out of session would be necessary and expected in your case because of the length of time between sessions.

My T does accept my emails and will usually respond, but there have been times when I thought I deserved a response and didn't get one, so now I ask for a response in the email so there is no misinterpretation.

Abandonment is a huge issue for me too and my T is well aware of this... still he messes up. It's important to be able to work through these disruptions in the relationship and learn from them. If you come from a background where there is trauma then you need to be sure your P is aware of this and be sure to emphasize your fear of abandonment.

Good luck and keep us posted.

TN

Thank you for the welcome, TN.

He really never laid any groundwork or spoke about boundaries or anything like that. Either when we were seeing him as a couple or with me individually. The only way that I know I have come up against a boundary is when he kind of looks away or changes the subject.

Last session, he finally gave me his phone number but I so far have resisted. He is full time at some kind of facility and sees me in his off time so I hate to intrude on his time when he is probably really tired. Also, he has health issues that occupy his time, too, I would imagine. That is probably one of the reasons I kind of worry so send him the "Are you all right" email.

In just sitting and thinking about it last night, I finally realized nearly everyone in my life has abandoned me. My parents were never there for me, my first husband drove me to the hospital to have our son and then LEFT! He was a serial cheater and he had made plans to go visit one of his "friends" for a few days. I heard him talking about it, so was prepared and shamed him into not going. He was not husband for very long.:-) Last night, I broke into tears and that is kind of difficult to explain away when you are just sitting there with the H.

I have to explore more fully this "abandonment" thing. Maybe I attract the kind of people that would do that but I can't explain the parents. Maybe I attract those people because of my parents doing it to me, IDK.

Thank you so much for the good advice. I really appreciate it. Lorena

I am so happy someone on here cared enough to let me know this forum is here. So, thanks to that special someone, also. Lorena

Thanks for he reply, HB.

I do plan on bringing up the communications problem with him. I did make a mistake on the date; it is for the 5th which is only a few days away so I can make it that long.

I had toyed with the idea of not going back and living( if you could call this life) the way it is but I do realize I desperately need help.

I also know, I could not do this with anyone else. For some reason, I really connect with him and do trust him more than anyone else in my life, ever... Which is huge for me to admit.

Again, thanks. This board is lifeline .

Hi Lorena,
Welcome to the forum! Sorry I didn't reply sooner but I was away this weekend taking my oldest to college for the first time. I really understand how you're feeling and its understandable being upset about not getting an answer from someone so important to you.

I don't know much at all about your background but all of the feelings you're talking about feeling (the intoxication, being able to say things you never could, feeling five years old, feeling valueless etc) all sound very familiar to me. I'm guessing that in your childhood you never had your basic needs met for a secure attachment. When that doesn't happen we spend the rest of our lives looking to have those needs met so when we finally get into a caring theraputic relationship all of those feelings come very intensely to life because in our therapist we see a chance of finally getting those needs met. So the intensity is so high because those needs were life and death when we were kids. Because so much hangs on the relationship all of our therapists actions are incredibly magnified. And since we experienced a lack of care, we're very quick to see that lack of care in other people. The most important thing you can do is talk to your therapist about how you felt about his responses and I agree with HB and TN (something I often do ) that it would be good to talk to your T about what his contact policy is.

I also know in my case, that I have had a difficult time learning to ask for what I need, so my T almost makes a point of not responding unless I ask for a reply. I know how painful this can feel and I find your reactions reasonable and understandable, but know that it really could be just a miscommunication and not a lack of caring on your Ts part.

You'll find a lot of people here dealing with these issues whose collective wisdom and support can really help. I'm glad you had a friend who could tell you about the site. That's a keeper.

AG

Thanks so much for your insight, AG.

This is a tough week for me. My emotions are very close to the surface for me. I finally took a machete out and whacked the crap out of a big patch of weeds. High point of my day:-)

My original homework for this session was for me to figure how to get myself happy and what I need from other people to be happy and whether being single again would be a benefit for me.

And, the first 2 weeks I was making a lot of progress on it but then this not hearing from him just devastated me and then to get that non caring ( my feelings) email from him devastated me further.

RE: the attachment issue.
Would he not know from my mentions about my childhood and how I could not even cry at my father's funeral ( it was like I was detached from him, maybe there is a better word for it?)

Just 2 examples of my life with my father. We lived on a farm with livestock. He worked in the big city and commuted on weekends. I was the eldest of 3. It was my job to do all the livestock feeding, etc and everything required on a farm with lots of animals. The first words out of his mouth when he got home was
" Well, did you get the list done" (The Job list). It wasn't, "Hi, did you have a good week" or " I'm glad to see you" or something dadlike. He was more glad to see his poodle...

Second example was when I was working 60 hours a week nights, I would get up during the day and go cut firewood for the winter. Well, since it came off his land, he felt he could go take what he wanted of it and give it to his friends. I worked like a dog for that, cutting down 70 foot tall trees and cutting and splitting it.And, my mother was just as bad. I am ashamed to admit I have no love for them in my heart. I wish I did. Sometimes.

I just had a thought. Could he have been so cold with me since I emailed ( didn't have the guts to tell him in session) him after the last appointment to tell him of my great attachment to him ( and also more trust in him than ever before with anyone in my life). Maybe he wants to get me off that thought. At first it was kind of erotic but it had gone from that to just a friend type attachment ( although the erotic remained somewhere simmering on the stove).

I am very ambivalent about this next session. In fact, I am scared spitless. I have even thought of making it my last with him but from what everyone else says, it is hard to find someone you have great rapport with and I have it with him if I can just get over this big bump in the road.

Sorry this is so long.

I also agree that friend is a keeper. Hugs to you friend...

Thanks for being great people with caring hearts. Lorena

This is just kind of a post script to the post above which I wrote last night.

Is it possible to regain the trust that I had in him and that I now feel I have lost?

How do attachment and abandonment fit in with each other? Are they close, intertwined?

Thanks for any thing you can offer on these.

Hi Lorena, I just wanted to welcome you to the board. I'm fairly new myself, and going through a pretty significant disruption in the relationship with my T. At least, it feels significant right now. I'm in a "waiting" phase while another T reviews the situation and gets back to me.

You asked if abandonment and attachment are intertwined. I have lived most of my life afraid to attach for fear of being abandoned. The result has been LOTS of loneliness and longing. Which means when I attach, I look for what I didn't get as a kid, and that means an unhealthy attachment which doesn't end well, ending in...loneliness and longing, etc.

TN and AG explained to me very recently that this comes from attachment injuries when we were young. We were essentially "abandoned" when we were young so we "attach" in unhealthy ways to others, still looking to get our needs met. Predictably, we recreate this initially unhealthy attachment in the therapeutic relationship, and hopefully the T can guide us through this to teach us how to get what we didn't get as children, so after therapy, we can form attachments to others in healthier ways. Attachment won't be so scary because we won't be so afraid of abandonment, maybe?

This was good news to me. Attachment, and its ending, has always been incredibly painful for me, which is why I've avoided it. I would really like to have healthy attachments to others, not dreading abandonment, and not being lonely.

But I can't make the changes I want to make by just being convinced that I need to make them. I have to kind of "relive" the experiences with my T in order to reach that part of me that overrides reason.

As you may have read in another of my posts, I'm in the middle of a really yucky-feeling experience. It sounds like you are too, and my heart goes out to you. And I'll give you the same encouragement that's been given to me: Keep going! You're learning something here, even if it doesn't feel like it right now.

I'm glad you joined in here, Lorena, and I look forward to hearing more about you and your therapy journey.

Take care,
SG

Hi Lorena... I want to answer your posts but I have to get to an appointment now .... I'll be back later tonight to post more. Hang in there.

TN

quote:

Is it possible to regain the trust that I had in him and that I now feel I have lost?

How do attachment and abandonment fit in with each other? Are they close, intertwined?

These are both really good questions, Lorena.

It is possible to regain the trust. Here's the problem you're facing, my T calls it "the bind." We are drawn towards our attachment figures when we're little as a matter of survival; we die without adult care. But when we move towards that person and get hurt, we end up in a hellish dilemma. The very person we need to move towards to handle our hurts is the same one causing us pain. So we end up in the painful position of being incredibly drawn by our needs and instincts towards relationship and at the same time feeling an incredible learned sense of terror and danger that tells us to stay away to keep ourselves safe.

When you were little, your relationship with your father should have been centered around your needs and it obviously wasn't. There are disruptions in all human relationships because none of us are perfect. But we are supposed to be taught two things. That although there are occassional failures, in general, we should be able to be cared for and when the inevitable failures occur, we should be taught how to handle our feelings, soothe ourselves and/or let others comfort us and how to repair the breech. You were not provided with any of that.

So you're T made a mistake in attunement and sent you a reply that felt impersonal and callous and hurtful after first not even replying. This kicks off your strong belief that to move close in relationship means you'll get hurt. You let him in, you let him get close to you and here it is, he's let you down and hurt you. This is the same old, same old, how could you be so stupid as to try to trust someone again, you knew how it was going to turn out. (Yes, I can hear the tape playing in your head, I own the same recording.) BUT, and this is the healing part of therapy. Your T is making this all about your needs and cares enough to want to repair this disruption. You can express your hurt and other feelings so you can be heard and understood, and the relationship will be repaired. This allows you to see that you can both handle your feelings of disappointment and hurt and that the relationship is strong enough to handle those feelings.

This continues to happen over and over, and although the process can be terrifying in that you have to walk into the middle of your fear, it gets just a little easier each time as you experience the repair and learn that things can turn out differently than you expect. And eventually you'll change your expectations of what happens when you get hurt. You're not left alone to cope on your own.

As for abandonment and attachment, they are intricately intertwined. It is the lack of attachment that leads to feelings of abandonment. Human beings are literally hard wired from birth, our brain structure is set up, that we are drawn to our attachment figures because without them we die. When we are not allowed to attach, we feel abandoned because in a very profound sense we are even if we aren't physically left on a street corner.

A young mammal separated from their attachment figure first gets agitated and upset, which then escalates into the protest stage which usually includes some form of protest (think of a human baby crying or a puppy howling when left alone). If enough time goes by without being responded to, the infant slips into despair and lethargy. Human babies will actually die without enough human contact. So people with attachment injuries usually have abandonment issues because they've been abandoned and know just how painful it is. Which has led them to expect that the same thing will happen in other relationships. That is why no matter how much we consciously long for closeness, we unconsciously find reasons to flee from relationship before we can be hurt again. Part of your struggle about your T is your attempt to find a reason to run so you can "protect" yourself.

I know that was alot and I hope some of it helped. If you want me to clarify anything, please feel free to ask.

AG

Lorena... AG pretty much explained everything that I would have only better. She is very wise with regards to this subject. And even though I've been in therapy for more than 18 months I still struggle with all of this and it's good to read it again. I need to remember this.

TN

Thank you, SG, AG and TN for coming to my rescue!

You are all incredibly knowledgeable about all this so I will just have to trust that it will all work out OK although I am still pretty much a basket case.

So, is it possible he intentionally made this happen so we could move forward?

Is this feeling really crappy between the therapy sessions a sign that things are progressing normally; if there is such a thing as normal? Since I have started this I am up and down like a yoyo. A lot of panicking feelings which are painful for me to deal with.

Well, I am going to push myself to keep this appointment and I hope everything turns out right. I guess it is entirely possible that he had a very bad day at work.

All of you are the best!!! Thanks, Lorena

Lorena... I don't know if he intentionally made this happen. I don't think he had that much foresight but I cannot answer for him. This would be something that you ask him. As for feeling awful between sessions that is very normal. When I leave my T I feel awful and sometimes don't even make it out of the parking lot before I have to stop and cry. It's separation anxiety I guess. As for the up and down yo-yo feeling...that is what we refer to as the roller coaster of therapy. It can get really bumpy, especially when you get into deep trauma work. The main thing is to establish a good strong foundation with your P before going too deep into feelings. You first have to feel safe and trust him and he needs to discuss with you basic guidelines and boundaries.

As for abandonment... I struggled with this fear and still do and at first did not understand where it was coming from. Then I understood that I was not abandoned in a physical sense as a child... I was not left on the street or anything but I was emotionally abandoned many times. It takes a long time to get past that one.

With attachment....you attach to your P and discover this new healthy way to attach and you should have a corrective emotional experience with your P where you learn what a healthy attachment is and then go on into life with this new frame of reference. I think you asked why you attracted certain type people. I think it's because we have such a damaged sense of self and lack of self esteem that we accept so much less because it is all we think we deserve. This attitude was conditioned from childhood.

I encourage you to keep the appointment and use it to clear the air so that you can decide if you want to continue working with this P.

TN

I was just reading all the posts on this topic and cant help but add my own input.Everything that everyone is saying is so normal!!We might be classified as patients, but we are human beings too! It is normal to be attached to a therapist or psychiatrist whom you have developed a relationship with.That is how we "roll" as humans. We get attached to people in our lives.I, personally, had a huge "crush" on my son's psych. , he was so kind and helpful to us. Just a natural response.I thought he was the bomb.Still do.He played a fatherly role towards us, but I admit I saw him in a different role!Oh well, I didn't get my fantasy fulfilled! But, this particular shrink did break the boundaries quite frequently, which added to my confusion. He seemed to like to open up to my son and me about his own problems, which made me like him even more. A natural response from a normal human being. So, my point being this, just be careful when you enter into these "therapeutic" relationships. We are all human beings, have genetics playing a part, and it is difficult to stay beyond the boundaries with therapists and shrinks or whatever their title might be. We all want and need caring relationships. These types are PAID to pretend to care about us, it is their job. Just remember that and be careful. Hopefully,you won't get sucked in like I did and can remain objective. From what I have been reading on various websites, however, this is a common occurance. It is called transference, and happens to the best and most of us.If you can't handle it, get out of it!!The therapists really don't care about you, they are just doing their job and we, as patients, get confused by this. Find a good friend to confide in, then you won't have to go through transference the way I did.It is rough, I am finally getting over him, after almost 2 yrs. since I last saw him. Still think we would have been great for each other. How sick is that??Maybe not too sick, he was a single man and i loved him, just couldn't have him and hope to one day, GET OVER HIM!!!!I hope to help people with this post. Just move on, find a friend. Whatever it takes, but don't get attatched to a shrink. That's all!!

Hi Lorena, AG, TN, HB, SG, and SR.....

Wow! what great posts and tough situation for you Lorena. I'm sorry it's hard right now but I am hopeful that you will be able to move through the (painful) process of talking about your feelings with this P.

Yes, we are all human and have strengths and weaknesses as clients/professionals. Still, I think that you are facing a wonderful opportunity to address issues that are binding your life. I hope this P is able to help you move through and grow as it sounds like you are in much suffering right now. Attachment injury and later transference should have a special word created for the exquisite pain it produces I think. NOthing can quite describe it!

Thinking of boundary's with Shrinks.......ahhh...I have had some experience with broken boundaries as well and this issue is always complex. I have come to realize that they most often stick to the biggest boundary rule (no intimate/sexual contact) but do sometimes break many of the smaller no-no's. This is horribly confusing for clients, I agree! It really does take a lot of work for any therapist or P to work through their own stuff and become mature enough to treat clients with the level of compassion, integrity, love and respect we need to be able to heal our attachment/trauma wounds. Too bad we are all human down here on planet earth eh?

P's and T's do get paid to work with us. But, from my experience on both sides of the therapeutic fence, most if not all professionals DO care about us, but are at different levels in their own healing journey .....and that reflects in how they treat and respond to us and how much they can help us. These people could work in another field.... being a therapist is not an easy way to make money and can take a huge toll emotionally and physically. I cared a lot about my clients but professional boundaries kept me from befriending my client (the one who eventually took her own life) in a friendship way. She needed more friends and she needed good professional support but anyone professional cannot fill more than his/her role that includes maintaining boundaries :-(

Overstepping will end up damaging the client even more. Professionals are bound by these rules (they can actually lose their license by breaking boundaries in significant harmful ways ie: intimate/sexual relationship with a client). I now realize and believe that boundaries are in place always to protect the client and each situation has innumerable variables.

This is Painful stuff for clients experiencing the spectrum of emotions that happens when you connect well with a kind therapist. Lorena, I hope this man is attuned to you and able to respond to this situation by explaining his response and repairing your trust and I hope that you take risks in relating your feelings to him and never give up working at it.

Thanks for sharing your situation with us. If you have time, maybe you could read Shrinkladys information on attachment and boundaries in therapy....it helped me by adding to what I knew of these processes and what they can feel like in your own experience. I'd better get going, have to go to work today...

Itshardtosay

Itshardtosay,

Since you are in the biz...

How difficult is it to credential for insurance companies? He was credentialed through former employers but not for himself. I have 2 forms of insurance but have to pay for my sessions myself. And, that is a slight problem. That is why I am able to have a limited amount of sessions,only. Just can't afford to go every week as he wanted me to.

I did offer to help him get credentialed by doing paperwork, etc if I could figure it out and offered to reimburse to his hourly rate to cover the provider discounts, etc, but so far nothing. I don't know if that part was ethical or not but felt it would help.

He is in a very disadvantaged area and just started out so I imagine finances are tight...

If it helps, I have Medicare and BCBS. TIA, Lorena

SR,

I am pretty much over the erotic part of it, although, it is still somewhere back there so it is possible for it to return but I do know it was not anything that would ever happen. It sure was a nice rush while it was in focus, though! I know it was just a fantasy.

He is single, don't know if I wrote it here but I see no evidence of any kind of social life in his home. Just his pets.

I do realize I am just a job to him.

Thanks for your observations. I hope you do well, also. Lorena

Itshardtosay,

Where would I find that info Shrinklady wrote on attachment and boundaries in therapy?

I did a search but could not find it. Thanks for that information.

I am doing much better today. For the first time in days, I did not fall asleep crying and wake up crying so it is just a matter of time.

All my life I have been a very strong person, but now I feel like a child.

Thank you so much. You have helped a lot. Lorena

Hi Lorena,

Look in the section Therapy Lingo. You will find writings on Attachment and Boundaries. There is a lot to read on these subjects and to learn. All of this material doesn't apply directly to the "in the therapists office" situation but you can apply what you learn about attachment to that situation and certainly the boundary stuff.

Itshardtosay.

Itshardtosay.

Thank you!

Lorena....I just wanted to answer your insurance question. I also have BCBS and my T was not in their network of Ts. I originally was looking for a T for my son and there are not many Ts who will see a child and so I called BCBS and told them of my dilemma (actually my T told me to call them and tell them to put him in their network). They did a bit of checking of Ts in the area and could not find a T for kids in their network in my area and so the mental health case manager allowed my T into their network for me and gave me a special authorization number for my claim forms. So what I do is pay my T out of pocket and then file the claim along with his receipt and get reimbursed for "some" of the expense which is better than nothing. My T does not do the paperwork. On my Ts part I think he just had to sign something and fax BCBS his license. It was not much for him to do. So call your BCBS mental health number and ask for some info... you can say you were in the middle of some very deep therapy with this P and don't/can't start over with someone new or that their are no Ps in your area that work well with your specific issues and ask them to include him. You have nothing to lose.

Good luck
TN

TN,

Thank you for the information. I think my Medicare would be primary so I will check with both. I did look up the credentialing paperwork for Medicare but didn't do anything with it.

I am gradually climbing out of that deep hole I was stuck in...

Thanks, this site is wonderful... So many caring, helpful people. I hope I can be helpful in the future like you all are to me now when I am needing it. Lorena

Hello to all again. I am especially writing to Lorena. I think I can relate very well what you are going through. Glad you are over the erotic part, I still am not. Just have my little fantasies....Cant seem to let them go. I still send this psych. personal emails. He gave me his personal email address and we still send messages back and forth, maybe once a month or so. I keep him updated about my son. He is a child psychiatrist.He still seems to care and I like that. We still break many boundaries, he even asked me if I could get him a job at this Boy's Home where my parents know the "owners". I was going to do it for him, but then he clammed up. I think he realized he had crossed these stupid boundaries again. He even tells me about his sick father in emails.He talks politics. Tells me some weird things sometimes. Once he even referenced going to a bar with his coworkers and told me how he lost this one job because he called some woman coworker a bitch! His own language to me. I thought it was funny, I like how he opens up about things. I responded with, So,Dr. hanging out at bars are we??LOL! Just kept it light. wish I knew which bar it was!! I also don't think he has much of a social life either, he seems to have insomnia too. If he had someone sleeping next to him, why would he be sending emails to me in the early hours of the day, like 2 or 3 am. Once I even made a comment to him about that. I told him he needed his rest, get to bed I told him.He said I know!!I think the man is lonely. I can tell.At least I Think I can tell.I am so bad that I even know where he lives. I looked him up on 411.com/people search. You can find anyone with a listed number, his address was right there for anyone to see. Isn't that awful of me to do that? I have driven by his home maybea dozen times, would just DIE if he saw me doing this.The neighborhood isn't that great, but his home is nice and has a pool.He knows I just love to swim.But, there are those damn boundaries again. What if you aren't in therapy anymore, haven't seen the man in 2 years?Is it still taboo? I'm going to send him another email next week telling him more about my teenage son. I may send him a pic from my Facebook profile of my son, I have done this before to. Bad girl that I am. He never said he minded. If I do this, he is able to view my info and my friends list, but can't see my Wall or anything. But, it does open me up for him to look more at me as a person. I am a professional, make good money, own my own home. I think we would be a good match.Listen to me, still going on!!I just so wish I could just have even one date with the man. I know I could cheer him up!I would be good for him,i know it. I am going to look at that info on "Therapy Lingo" that someone else posted.I probably need a refresher on boundaries again. But he breaks them too.I have rambled enough. tell you what happens after the next email.Once, he even said he wanted to watch my son play football and go to a game.My son is 16 now.I wish he would have gone, but he never did. My son is still playing.I guess I should just let that one die too. Bye, ShrinkRapt

Hello, SR,

I have only been to 2 sessions with him and soon (Saturday) the third. Mine self disclosed many things about his life. We do meet at his house since it is on Saturdays and he has no "office". So, I have seen his whole house and met his pets. I have had a very big "look" into his personal life. As I stated before, I see no evidence of ANY social life; so I feel he is also very lonely. I have no idea how any of them can meet people to date; before I retired, I met most of my date mates and my 2 husbands on the job. I know if I was a "shrink"; I would not want to be married/involved with one as well, since there would be too many mind games. And, you would know you were being "played".:-) But that is just me...

This is a temporary house as he has not found a permanent one yet. No furniture other than card tables and folding chairs! I mean NONE. He is dealing on a permanent house now so I hope he gets additional furniture!!! I know that is in storage and I can see not wanting to move it twice but, geez, any time I moved I had at least one room that was comfortable to be in soon after moving in...

To me, personally, he looks like a very sorrowful person. For his age, late 40's, he has very sad eyes and lots of what I call sorrow wrinkles around his eyes. But, anyway, I still have an attachment to him. I do not know if I can get back the trust and caring I had when I had the "love" type feelings whether it was platonic or more. But, now, I can sit back and be objective about it and see I was probably reading more into his empathy and caring than was actually there. Maybe all this is why he is in the "shrink" biz so he can help people get better.

On your situation; I can see yours has gone way over the boundaries. talking about going to bars, calling a co worker a "B" and getting fired. WOW, sounds like he is rather immature.

I cannot see your message I am responding to now so can't remember what I was going to say other than:

I think there is a 2 year rule for seeing persons outside of the therapy room but for most, they see it as a permanent ban since once a patient, always a patient. IOW, if you were once a patient, you may need to come back and start up therapy again any time in your life. In your particular case, you can go to the association they belong to and look it up.

RE: the driving by his house. If I were you, I would not be doing that. If he were to catch you, he could go file stalking charges on you and not only would that be embarrassing but could have quite severe penalties. I don't know what would qualify as just curious and what would be considered as stalking. Probably more that a few times would be stalking. So, be careful with that.I imagine some of them are very concerned about their security. I know I would be.

You take care and any time you need to write, feel free to write me. I am feeling lots better now; no longer breaking into tears all the time. So, my troubled mind is now clearing out.

Again, thanks and write any time you like. Good luck. Lorena

Hi Lorena, Just felt like responding. I think you are right about me driving by his house. It is immature on my part, but I would never confront him or bother him. I'm not even exactly sure why I do it, I would be terrified if he were to see me. I think I do it just to see who is parked out front. I want to see if he has any friends over or something like that. Once I saw a cute beetle car and wondered if it was one of his sister's cars or maybe a woman's car?It looked like a car that a woman would drive.Really ridiculous I know. I actually haven't driven by in a few months. I'm getting better. LOL! I find it very interesting that your shrink has your sessions at his house.That is really over the boundaries if you ask me. Here I am just driving by, and your being invited in for a therapy session. I have never heard of that.You should be in an office somewhere. Seems he could be setting himself up for a possible legal scenario.Is there anyone else there in the home besides his pets? A secretary or something? He shouldn't be seeing you alone in his own home.I also could relate where you described his eyes as being sorrowful. You felt something for him, I know that feeling. The shrink I am talking about was never my shrink, but my son's.We all 3 would have sessions together and I would observe the DR. and began to feel sorry for him after he began to reveal personal things. I started noticing that his clothes looked a bit disheveled,he seemed tired sometimes, but I really enjoyed cheering him up. I could make him laugh, I do have a good sense of humor and I liked to make him smile and look happier. He was always a very good Dr. towards my son and I. Great therapist in my opinion, always dug deep and made us think about things. He used to teach High School, then went back to medical school, so he really had a good feel for teens. He taught school nearby where I grew up. He is 12 yrs. older than me, I have always been attracted to men older than me.I could also tell he is very smart, I love smart men. In his last email to me, he revealed that it was his birthday that day. I wished him a happy bday, he said he had to spend it at a boring retirement party, he mentioned that it was mandatory that he attend. So, Iguess he really didn't like the retiree, didn't really want to be there. I personally like my co workers and wouldn't find a retirement party a bummer, or mandatory. so, again, he is revealing a bit of anti socialism.Why did he tell me it was his bday?He certainly didn't have to. Just puzzling. I do miss him alot,haven't seen him in over 2 years, just the emails is our only contact. I'm going to email him again after this weekend.I'll see how he responds.sometimes he is more elaborate than others , also confusing.Well, take care, hope your therapy session is good tomorrow. I do wish I could still see my son's Dr. , but he left our HMO,too bad for us.Talk soon, ShrinkRapt--Isn't that a good name? Exactly what I am, but I am harmless!!

Hi SR,

I am so glad you aren't doing the drive bys any more.

I know mine is going over the boundaries big time; both with the sessions in his home and all the self disclosing, etc.

But, I feel like I am in in no danger and I think it has helped me open up more about my life/problems so I am cool with it. And, no one else there but him, me and the pets. I am ordinarily very vigilant about my safety but I do trust him. Plus, I worked for many years in a very physical job and still do rassle horses and large animals on the farm and he has probably never done any physical work in his life and is skinny and looks like a typical desk jockey.LOL So, if I had to I could probably take him down. LOL Just kidding. I don't think he would ever try anything.

Mine is also very disheveled. I almost giggled when I saw his clean shirts hanging on the upper cabinet pulls in the kitchen. I guess I am quirky too but that just struck me as so funny. Kind of like "typical bachelor."

I don't know what he did in his former life but he is 48 and has only been in practice for around 10 years or so.

Last session I told him it is my birthday the day after my next session. So, I will see if he has a memory and wishes me a happy birthday. I would bet not. In fact, I will be surprised if he does.

Wow, you are still stuck on him after not seeing him for so long? Good luck with that.

Keep writing; it is nice to share lives. I will update you with what happens tomorrow during our session. We are (finally) going to have the "boundaries" talk. And deal with the email problem. Lorena

Lorena... wishing you good luck tomorrow and also a HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

I hope things go well for you at your session. You made me smile thinking of you rassling him to the floor in self-defense. I'll bet you could too....

Try to be as honest as possible with him and if he says something that bothers you ask him then and there to explain it further. I have no idea what experience your P has but I would tell you to remember that from what I have read on all the boards that most Ts/Ps get either defensive or scared when the subject turns to transference. I think they finally begin to relax when they realize the context that it is happening in ... such as attachment. And the fact that your feelings are mixed up in parental type feelings not just the erotic type. I have also told my T that talking about what I feel does not mean I want to act on it. There is a huge difference. Its just that we are supposed to talk about our feelings in therapy and if we hide ourselves from our Ts/Ps then how can they really know us and help us to heal. I sort of made a promise recently to myself that I would never shut out my T from what I'm feeling... even when I'm angry with him... although that feels very scary to me.

I truly think that the bulk of your feelings are due to an attachment that you have developed for your P because of the lack of attachment you had as a child. Your P is meeting those childhood needs that no one ever addressed and it feels good. In order to heal from this you need to work through this attachment and your P has to be willing to be there for you for reassurance over and over again. It takes a long time to move an inch as a dear friend of mine puts it... you have to go many miles to move an inch in therapy. He needs to be steadfast and to be able to reassure you. Eventually, you will need this less and less as time goes by and you come to trust that he is there for you.

And yes, sometimes things will get worse before they get better. It will be a roller coaster. And you will feel horrible pain at times when you have to leave him and you will yearn for the next visit. This is all normal.

Please let us know how your session goes tomorrow. I will be thinking of you.

TN

Hi, TN
Thanks for the good luck wishes and the birthday wishes. It is nice of you to think of me.

<rassling him to the floor> Kind of makes me sound like Elly Mae Klampett...LOL

Maybe you can tell I am a lot more light hearted and clear headed. I have done some serious soul searching and thinking these last few days. I believe I can now say that I am attached to him in that parental way and not completely in the erotic way. At one time it was that way but that has "almost" all dissolved; not entirely but mostly. Probably about 5-10 % is erotic but I can control that. It isn't really the parental attachment, either as I do not think of him a a parent. When you say parental is it meant as a person you feel safe with and trust them and they protect you? If so, that is probably the way I see him.

When I sent him that first email that turned him inside out:-); I explained I had certain feelings that I know would never be reciprocated and I would never do anything inappropriate.

I also said something about the attachment I have to him; maybe he construed that as attraction, I could see where that could be.

Don't quite know the differences between attachment and attraction and the difference in strength of each?

I am now willing to own up to being the cause of my own distress that just about sent me over the edge. When he immediately didn't respond to my needy emails about my attachment, I automatically presumed he didn't "care". I am sure he does care but not the way I wanted him to. Now I realize it is going to be much better the way it is going to be now when it is not erotic;(hopefully, he won't be so freaked out he will terminate me right away without hearing my side of the problem).
To me, a lot of the writing above sounds very confusing; I hope you can figure out what I am trying to say, even if it is very inarticulate.

I had almost decided I will no longer email him as that causes problems but I still feel I may need something ( reassurance or ...) between appointments with him as they sometimes stretch out 2 - 3 weeks.

I really hope we can meet in the middle somewhere.

I had contemplated just not keeping the appointment but I do need this for my stability.

Sorry for all the rambling. Just don't have it in me for editing tonight. Also, sorry for being a novel. I am sooo thankful for all you wonderful people. Lorena

Hi Lorena, ShrinkRapt here. LOL! I have just finished reading the last couple of posts, good luck tomorrow. I am still in awe of the way you are meeting this shrink at his home. You should not be able to see his shirts, etc. That is so strange. But, I do feel for you, the way you notice these things about him. I couldn't help it either. He looks like a bachelor to you, see, you have a way of viewing that when you shouldn't. I can't believe that you can have sessions with him at his home. You could have easy access to his life that way, as you do.You feel sorry for him, dont' you? That is a normal human response to anyone in need. I'll bet this guy is alone, you and I both know it, and you feel sorry for him. You also feel attracted to him, but you are trying to hold that down. That is good. But, if you continue to see him at his home, you will continue to be able to view his life,or lack there of. I never felt attracted to my son's shrink until after about 4 mos. of appointments. I came alone one day, because I let my son go camping at the last minute, and decided to show up by myself and ask the good DR. what he felt was wrong with my son.A parent/psychiatrist appt. that was necessary. At this appointment, he got a phone call, which he answered in front of me, and he was going on and on about his father. After he hung up, he began to disclose all this personal info about his Dad, his mother dying, his sisters, etc. I almost felt like the therapist. He was really opening up to me. We talked at length,very heavy stuff, and I felt honored that he would reveal this kind of stuff to me. He shouldn't have, but he did. Thus, began the transference. I felt sorry for him, big time. I wanted to help him, he seemed so alone, and depressed too. Would make comments about his insomnia.Always revealing things about himself after this appointment. He seemed very interested in helping my son too. Went above and beyond in helping us, writing letters to the Juvenile Court. Even a probation officer commented to me that he had never seen a Dr. do this before. Made me feel real special, believe me.I developed a crush on him,including sexual fantasies.I just wanted him , every part of him, I wanted to make him feel happy, he seemed so down.I am basically a happy person, I don't really have too many problems, except with my son.He is presently in a Probation Camp, that has been hard, but he is doing very well there. He will be released in Oct., he seems to be finally getting it. He is in a leader type role there. The Dr. knew all about my son's defiance problems, was right on top of it. He even was on the receiving end of my son's rage on occasions which lead me to love him even more. He just took it, then tried to help my kid. What a kind man he is.Then, unexpectedly, he got fired from our HMO.I was devastated, but tried to put up a good front. That's when he gave us his email address and said to keep in touch, we still are. He still reveals stuff to me in emails, I still so badly want to see him again, and the Dance goes on. But, I haven't seen him in 2 years.Why can't I get over him by now?? IDK, wish I could. I think he will always remain, in my mind, as the one who got away. I am 48 yrs. old, and never felt this way until now. Never had one who got away, til now. I so badly want to just see him again. But, probably never will.Huge Bummer!!So, Lorena, take care, try your best to not feel anything. If that is possible. You sound alot like me,don't wind up like me,OK???You shouldn't be seeing his shirts!!I know exactly how that would be affecting me. Pity the man, right? We are both just females, and this is kind of like biology kicking us in the butt. We are preordained to take care of men. That's how it is.Please, try not to feel for him and wind up like me. Although, I'm not really as bad as i sound. I am doing well in spite of him . I have been with the same man for 25 years, he just doesn't know that I still fantasize about the shrink at intimate moments!Makes it all better!!I have rambled enough. I will looking forward to reading about your visit tomorrow. Have a great weekend!!SR

Hi, SR,
just a quick note before I go feed horses and get ready to go.

This is the weirdest thing. I think part of the thoughts/feelings I have about him is wanting to take care of him. I have been arguing with myself about this but since you also said it, that could very well be part of it. I don't think I pity him, as such.

More later. After I digest all of this. Two hour ride ahead of me so I get lots of thinking done.

Thanks, Lorena

Hi, all.

What a roller coaster ride I went on yesterday.

It felt like a couple friends getting together and having a very fun, lively visit.

He told me all about his younger life, his family,the women he has been in love with, college life and life now. I realize that was way over the top as far as boundaries go. Not only that but our hour lasted 4.5 hours!

Interspersed with all the banter was the therapy work. I know he thinks I should get out of this marriage; whether it is separation or divorce as we have discussed it.

In talking about my life I mentioned about my husband commuting home for the weekend ( he worked 100+ miles away so couldn't commute daily). Said how he would bring home a couple nice steaks, we would eat and then do other things. My P interjected about a "romp in the hay" which I had said 2 meetings ago was a big part of what is missing in my life. ( Loveless, sexless marriage for 12 years)

So, anyway, I don't know if he is starting to get these thoughts about me or???

He is working on getting me to think about not allowing my husband to use me as a servant ( go get me a drink, make me a sandwich etc)

Also, is trying to get me to see this marriage is not healthy with me being the slave while the husband sits and dictates what he wants done. ( Easier to do this than get in a big fight about it)

I have been on the fence about leaving this marriage since we have such an investment here; farm that is paid for, stock etc. And, neither of us could afford to buy the other out.

I sent my p an email today, ( yes, we discussed it and he is OK with them, LOL)asking if the lively conversation we had yesterday was a part of a happy marriage. Then said, if it was, I would happily leave this place with a suitcase if I could find a man like that who was available to me.

This is quite confusing to me. I know I should terminate with him but can't do that. He makes me feel alive again. And, that makes me feel very good.

Any comments? Thanks, Lorena

Hi Lorena! You had an interesting session didn't you? Really over the boundaries, for sure. Just the time length says it all. You are wondering why he went so long with you, right? He MUST like you to do this, that's what you are thinking right? My son's shrink used to go way over with us too, and that's what I started to think. Why??The secretaries used to call him and tell him his next patient was waiting and he needed to finish up, he hated that even more he told us. I think your situation of him doing therapy in his home in going to create transference alright. No therapy session would ever go that long in an office type setting, there are patients scheduled afterward. I just hope you don't get your feelings hurt or anything, or disappointed. I think you are connecting with him, that's great, but I just hope it doesn't get too complicted for you both.He is kinda leading you on, he is probably attracted to you too but he is suppossed to know better. I just lovedthe way he shared all that personal biz with you. A NO No, but don't you just love it? I know the same feeling, as my son's shrink did that with us all the time. It made me feel like a friend or someone he wanted for a friend. But,now he has been gone for 2 years and look at me still. Although I'm really not that bad, but I do still think of him all the time, just wish we hadn't lost him. Like I said before, i still email him, but it's not the same as his physical presence. Just be careful with this shrink, I wouldn't want you to wind up like me.ShrinkRapt!!LOL!!

Hi, SR and Summer.
Thanks for your comments. I am good with it now the way it is and if it ends, I will feel bad but I am a survivor. It would just take a little while.

I had felt some chemistry with him even when we saw him as a couple for the abuse problem. Then there was a break of about 2 months while he cleared up some loose ends before he moved to where I see him now.

I felt guilty just sitting there and talking but he didn't seem to mind and seemed as if he enjoyed it every bit as much as I did. I am sure he had other things he could have been doing, at least I hope he did and I had lots of things to do as well. We covered an amazing amount of ground in those 4.5 hours.

Anyway,I know this is playing with fire but right now I am like a moth being attracted to the flame.

This is just as intoxicating as a fine brandy. I am sure at some time I will need to sober up but right now it is what I need. Still no body contact other than a hand shake at the end. I would probably freak out if something more happened.

I would be so very embarrassed if he was to read all this. I wonder if shrinks know about these boards; other than the ones who are here on a regular basis. IDK, maybe they don't care or don't have the time to check them out.

Anyway, thanks friends, you are all the best. Lorena

Summer,
Where would I find your posts? I am fairly new here and so far have not gone through all the posts. And, would like to see what I may have in store for me, when/if he decides to terminate with me. When/if he tires of a flirtation.

You are all so wonderful on this forum.

Thanks, Lorena

Wow Lorena... that was some long session. And lots of personal conversation thrown in. Now, I've had longer sessions but that was usually arranged beforehand when scheduling the appointment and I was also charged accordingly. I also started seeing my T because of my son and even though I was technically not his patient at the time he never self-disclosed his personal life. And since then he has only self-disclosed a very few times when it directly applied to what we were talking about or what I was struggling with. I know it's very intoxicating to have that much intense attention and having your needs met when it has been a long time since someone has given you that much attention, but I do see a lot of red flags here and I just don't want you to get hurt.

Ps as opposed to Ts are never allowed to have a personal relationship with a client. They can lose their license and also in some states it is a crime to have a sexual relationship with a current or ex-client. So just be aware of this. Supposedly with a T they can have a personal relationship after a two year break but the break must not have been made with the expectation of a future sexual relationship.

I am glad that you were also able to do some therapy while there and to clear up his emailing policy. Did he ever say why he responded as he did in that brusque and cold manner? And did he say that he was planning to move into an office? Or will he continue at home?

I'm not advising that you stop seeing him now but I think you need to be aware of where this could go and how it could harm you in the long run. I do think addressing your unhappy and sometimes abusive marriage situation is good and I hope he can help you with dealing with this and finding a solution. Do you have another appointment set up?

I wish you the best in this therapy journey. And please keep posting. I'm sure right now you are busy processing the session.

TN

Hi Lorena,

Just for the sake of comparison, I can tell you that my T has never told me anything about himself. I literally know nothing about him other than how long he's been a therapist and where he went to school, and I've been seeing him multiple times a week for 15 months. And once our 50 minutes is up, that's it.

For me, personally, I prefer this. I like the fact that his story has nothing to do with mine. I like the fact that he can offer insight and feedback to my experience as a truly objective witness. I like the boundaries and the structure. This is what they call "the frame" in psychotherapy. It provides a foundation of consistency and predictability for the work that I feel is really, really important.

I agree with TN that the amount and content of the self-disclosure and the length of your appointment are both alarming. Please be careful here. Really careful.

Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think a therapist is there to be your friend, or anything even remotely like it. He/she is there to serve almost as a kind mirror into yourself where you can start to see things more accurately. He's not there to tell you how to feel or how to think or how to behave. He's there to help you experience how you feel, see how you think and understand how you behave, all without judgment or emotion. The idea is for him to help you see yourself and your experience from a different perspective - hopefully a more accurate one - then you can make the changes yourself.

Remember, this is your life you're dealing with here, and it's serious business. Therapy is about you, not your therapist. Don't let this get out of hand.

Best,
Russ

Hi, Summer, I will go look for your PM in just a bit. Thanks for that.

Hi, TN and Russ.
I do feel your concern and also share it since there were so many boundaries crossed.

There were no lines crossed as pertaining to anything sexual; like I said before, I am sure I would freak out if he ever made a pass.

I do think I need his positive influence in my life now. He has helped my a lot with the negative baggage I have carried all my life. Now, I can see I have the potential to have a happy relationship with someone who cares about me. I just have to figure out how to do it in real life. My "picker" has apparently been broken for most of my life and it is time to see if it can be repaired. I better get on the stick, i am 61 YO now and don't have much time left. LOL

I have another appointment scheduled for this next Saturday and as far as I know it will be at his house although he might be moved into another one by that time.

RE: the email problem. Apparently he has been traveling to different sites and does not get his emails then. And, he did figure we would discuss everything in session which we did. Although that doesn't really excuse how it made me feel. He did email me right back today when I had a couple questions and he was very quick about it even though I told him he didn't need to answer.

I am all right with the way things stand now. I do know there is a great potential for me to get hurt very badly.

Even if my "picker" is broke, my sense of danger is working fine and I do know how to say "no". He already knows I don't have it in me to have a relationship outside of marriage; even if the marriage is a bad one. I still do have my integrity and I am sure, he does as well. I really don't think he would jeopardize his career for a little fling with me.

Thank you for being concerned and caring about me. You will never know how much I do appreciate it. Thanks so much, Lorena

Hi Lorena, I am sorry that I haven't posted earlier on your story. I have been reading and paying attention to it but just haven't got round to collecting my thoughts on the thing.

While, thankfully, I haven't had to go through the experiences that you have gone through and are going through with your husband, I have had close experience with a similar kind of relationship in my life and it's very difficult to watch. I wish you all the best with your therapeutic work on the issues and I commend your bravery in trying to deal with it. It is all too easy to let it go when something has been going on so long. It doesn't mean it hurts any less today though.

As for your recent session with your P. All I can say is that I am going through transference feelings with my T. I was working with him for about 6 months on and off. He rarely disclosed anything about himself. When he did it was only something trivial or on the surface. But that did not make a difference to the strength of the feelings I had/have for him. And besides the fact that i knew he would never do anything, it hasn't made a difference to how hurt I feel now that he's gone. I miss him so much and am struggling to make decisions in my life without him even though he was never one to make decisions for me.

All I would say is be very careful. I do not question your integrity one bit but even having these long sessions encourage feelins towards him, whether anything happens or not. And while you say that nothing sexual would happen, it doesn't have to to create a lot of hurt for you. Just make sure to take care of yourself.

Thank you, crazy lady, for your insight. I know sooner or later he will think I am improved enough to terminate with me. I know it is going to hurt like he!! but I think I am gaining lots of strength from his help.

I worked in a mans tough job all my working life, started back in 1974 when no women were doing it so I am basically an extremely strong person.

Right now with this therapy I don't quite feel so invincible but I am slowly gaining on it.:-)

I have a hard time believing this is really transference. What I mean is; I don't see him as my dad, or any caretaker position in my life, rather I see him as a valued person I can tell my life to. Maybe I also see him as someone I can "rescue" or take care of??? That is getting in too deep for me right now.
Maybe transference is exactly what it is. IDK.

I do know at this time this is what feels right to me and is helping me become stronger.

Now, I have lots to think about as I cook, bake and clean house for the little get together we have on Labor Day. All that stuff you can do pretty much without a mind...

Thank you crazy lady. This is such a wonderful caring bunch of folks on this forum. Really quite incredible when you think about it. Lorena

Hi Lorena, just reading all the posts. You say that you don't see the transference. You think the shrink is just a valued person that you can share your life with.??Don't you believe that those strong feelings belong to someone else, such as a parent or a spouse?Possibly the shrink hasn't had the person he really needs either, so he transfers these feelings to his patients?

IDK, because life is so difficult and complicated at times. I just know that therapy is where we are at our most vulnerable.All of us, patients and therapist,shrinks, are people and we all need connections to other people. Most of us who enter therapy have problems in our lives, and we need help. It is no help to us if the person we reach out to can't remain objective, and just help us with our problems. It might be the that therapy is just so intense, the therapists/pschs. have much difficulty staying within the boundaries because they are people with problems too.I have personally experienced these problems with boundaries because I just like people too much. I can't help but cut through the bullshit and see them for who they are, even if they have degrees and credentials on their walls.

I still think highly of my son's shrink. He did cross the boundaries and didnt seem to care. Maybe he should have cared more about them, because it really messed me up.I am still thinking about him, after 2 years of not seeing him.I only started caring about him after he crossed the boundaries and sucked me up.I have this little fantasy going that we would be perfect for each other,I really still do believe that, I think it might be true but don't know if I will ever find out. I think he felt something towards me too, he hinted at it many times.Now I am stuck in Neverland or FantasyLand, whatever you might want to call it.

Lorena, just be careful. The house visits are certainly a NO No. Please explain why he is working out of his house and not an office??I still say you should not be viewing his shirts.LOL!But true!!


Anyways, I am still here in the transference role. I am going to send my son's shrink an email and update about my son's progress since we left him. I still email him, I will let everyone know what he says after. I just might invite the ol' mighty Doc to one of my son's football games and see if he goes.He might, IDK.There are alot of reasons he just might go, he actually said he wanted to go to one 2 yrs. ago, we have alot more at stake now and maybe he will go?? It will depend on him,and if he feels he still wants contact with us. We have NOT lost contact with him on the internet, just physical contact.I will let everybody know what happens in the next week. Hang in there Lorena, although, I am not necessarily the right person to tell you to just let him go. Look at me, still ShrinkRapt.Hope you're not like me.