Can we really make long-term permanent change?

imokMember

Hi All

I initially went to see my current T for a “refresher on CBT”. At $110 per session, I advised I could only see her for a maximum of 6-8 sessions. So somehow 4 years later, my dear husband and I have found the finances for me to continue seeing this T on a weekly basis! I have worked so hard during this time to battle old demons but I still feel I’m not ok (hence my username: “I’m OK” - which is where my T wants me to end up – finding a place of acceptance with myself that I am an ok person with all my good bits, bad bits and boring bits in between).

During this 4 year period, my husband and I sold our very first home, bought a new house with is being renovated, we are living with one of my relatives whilst the renos take place and my wonderfully husband and I decided to start a family. I have been fortunate enough to have been blessed with the birth of two healthy children. Unfortunately I had severe postnatal depression with both of my children and have spent in total a period of 21.5 weeks in a Mother-Baby Unit (16.5 weeks with my first child and 5 weeks with my second child). I had to have ECT (electroconvulsive therapy) after the birth of my two children as I felt suicidal (12 ECT sessions with my first born and 11 ECT sessions with my second).

During the past 4 years with my T we have covered:
- the importance of relaxation to avoid being overly activated
- cognitive behaviour therapy
- mindfulness
- understanding my mother’s long term struggle with depression, anxiety, and at times, psychosis
- the impact my mother’s illness has had on me both as a child and as an adult
- the impact my childhood has had (still has) on my ability to mother to my 3 year old son and 6 month old daughter

My biggest fear is that I will be like my mother. For example:
- retreating to bed during the day
- not being truly present and attuned as a mother because I am so caught up in the emotionally tiring state of my thoughts and anxieties
- finding day to day basic tasks so difficult (ie: showering, laundry, cooking)
- repeating history and not teaching my children the skills they will need to cope as they grow up into school age children, teenagers and adults.

We are currently working on the topic of self-esteem / right brain / experience / relationship stuff.

My T is fantastic but I just feel that whilst I may make / have made some substantial changes with her help, I don’t think I will ever truly change to a point when I can love and accept who I am. I feel like a fraud, I feel like I’m hanging in there by a thread (too scared to actually commit suicide but too frozen / stuck / paralysed to really change and give up my old ways of coping in order for me to be able to live a happy and meaningful life).

I just want to be at peace but my T says that my expectations are unrealistic. She says that even when we do get to a point where I no longer see her (and there is no pressure from her on this matter) life will not be perfect. She says I will still have times when I feel anxious but that I will have stronger coping skills and will bounce back from my troubles quicker. I mean I get that is a really obvious point she makes that life won’t be perfect with or without her - but it scares the hell out of me. I want my life to be happy – I don’t want to deal with my head as it is for another 50 years. I don’t want to live my days feeling anxious and overwhelmed by daily tasks. I want to have energy and enthusiasm for life and I want to feel calm and not worried over the minor things in life and instead focus my energy on the important things (like playing with my kids and spending quality time with my dear husband).

I feel Iike I start to get to a point with my T when I actually think I’m truly “getting” all the work we do and then my true personality comes out and shows its real colours. I start going through the motions of life, or worse, retreating to bed. I require so so so much reassurance from others that I’m ok. No one else seems to require as much reassurance as I do.

I don’t know whether I’m making sense but I guess I am wondering if any of you do you think we can change to the point of being truly happy with who we are, having the skills to cope with whatever life presents us and believing that our life really does have a purpose and meaning??

If you got this far reading my post... THANK YOU so much!

I'm OK

7/7/094:18 AM

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mlcMember

Hi I'm OK,

I want you to know that I did read your post to the end and found it interesting...as far as your questions go--I do think that we can change to being truly happy people, etc. but I don't think that this happiness means that we are 100% happy with all of our qualities...I think that we learn to accept some of our qualities and sort of not judge them so harshly....all this coming from someone who's not quite 'there' yet either...mlc

7/7/095:01 AM

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mlcMember

HB--I really like your reply!! It reminds of Buddhism in which they talk about 'watering' the 'seeds' of mindfulness,kindness, goodness, etc and not feeding the 'bad' seeds, etc. of our conscious mind...mlc

7/7/095:45 AM

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imokMember

Hi Hummingbird & mlc

Thank you both so much for reading and replying to my post.

quote:
What are you like? You told us how your mother was and your fears of being like her but who are you when you are being your best self. That is what needs our energy and focus, instead we feed and protect our fears and they flourish.

I think that comment is spot on. And I think this is why my T & I are working so hard on my self-esteem.

Speaking of self-esteem, I once read the following story:

A well-known speaker started off his seminar by holding up a $20.00 bill. In the room of 200, he asked, "Who would like this $20 bill?" Hands started going up.

He said, "I am going to give this $20 to one of you but first, let me do this. He proceeded to crumple up the $20 dollar bill. He then asked, "Who still wants it?" Still the hands were up in the air. Well, he replied, "What if I do this?" And he dropped it on the ground and started to grind it into the floor with his shoe. He picked it up, now crumpled and dirty. "Now, who still wants it?" Still the hands went into the air.

My friends, we have all learned a very valuable lesson. No matter what I did to the money, you still wanted it because it did not decrease in value. It was still worth $20. Many times in our lives, we are dropped, crumpled, and ground into the dirt by the decisions we make and the circumstances that come our way. We feel as though we are worthless. But no matter what has happened or what will happen, you will never lose your value. Dirty or clean, crumpled or finely creased, you are still priceless to those who DO LOVE you.

The worth of our lives comes not in what we do or who we know, but by WHO WE ARE.

Anyway back to your question of what I am like.....

I’m a wife and mother. I love Golden Retrievers and chocolate. But other than that I can discount all most everything else about me. I mean I look normal and when I do make an effort to shower, dress and do the hair/make up (in order words I get up and put my mask on for the day!), no one would even know that my head is my own private hell.

quote:
And when things are going really well and i am coping, i feel lucky and fortunate but i never identify it as possibly being me.

That is so true. When things are going well, I think “thank god” but I am worried about when my luck will run out and I will be back to my old life. I too can’t associate that my true self could have a functioning / capable side.

I guess I feel like I know the theory after 4 years of weekly therapy but I struggle applying this theory stuff to my life in a practical day to day matter. I mean I know I should challenge my irrational thinking, I should use “mindfulness” to stay in the moment, I should exercise and not drink too much alcohol, I should do my relaxation cd regularly...... but the reality is that I am tired of having to try so hard to stay well with the most basic areas of my life (like living).

I didn’t start therapy with this T until I was 29 – so I am just wondering how long does it take to reprogram our neural pathways so we change the way we’ve always done things? I mean if it took me 29 years to get to where I am now, how many more years will it take of me seeing my T to get true long-term day-to-day changes to take place on a permanent scale (ie; not just a few good weeks but months & months of stability in the day-to-day stuff without my inner critic attacking me constantly and my mind jumping to conclusions about what people :must” be thinking about me). How long does it take for the benefits of our positive relationships & experience with our T’s (obviously 4 for me isn’t enough!) to change us for good? And why does the theory stuff sound so practical in the T’s office but is so damn hard to implement / sustain on a long-term basis out in the real world?

I'm OK

7/7/099:16 PM

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mlcMember

Hi I'm Okay,

I wonder if your feeling of trying so hard to stay well is serving a purpose for you and what feelings are behind the trying(I mean, doing the things to stay well is not all that difficult, so I am wondering what you are carrying along with the 'trying')? I have similar issues, I think, of taking care of myself; for me, rage is behind it (and, in turn, as someone pointed out to me on this site, something is also behind the rage--although, I'm not sure yet). I also wonder if you are somehow protecting yourself with your 'inner critic' and the 'jumping to conclusions.'?...that all of it is serving some purpose in your life? Were there ever times that your inner critic helped you?...just some thoughts...I'd like to know how you are doing...mlc

7/8/094:05 AM

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learningtoflyMember

Hi I'm OK,

quote:
I just want to be at peace but my T says that my expectations are unrealistic

I don't think wanting to be at peace is unrealistic. I hope not, because that's my ultimate goal for therapy i guess. Peace from the demons of your past, peace from worries for the future, and peace to enjoy your present.

Yes, life may not ever be like it is on tv, but surely you can be happy. You'll have hard times but like your T said, you'll get through them easier because you'll have stronger coping skills. Isn't that what being happy is about? You're not expecting perfection.

As far as change goes, *shrugs* it's a work in progress. I can see tiny shifts in some areas and big shifts in others. I'm nowhere near where I want to be yet, but I'm heading in the right direction (most days!) So yes, I believe it's possible.

LTF

7/8/094:25 PM

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imokMember

Hi HB and Learning to Fly

I am still amazed when I log in and see replies to my queries. This site is so important to me right now. I’m so glad I have people like you two (and mlc) to share this long long long journey with!

I’m just going to have blurt out what’s going on in my mind....

Today I coped being a mum to my two kids - but I didn’t feel proud. I felt ashamed and guilty. It’s almost like I don’t want to cope.

I heard my mum say for so long “I can’t” through her words and actions. I never really had the encouragement that I could do things. As paralysing as it is to say “I can’t”, at least it is familiar to me.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to be like my mum but I am so scared to give up my identity which has been that I’m the black sheep of the family, I’m the sick one, I’m the one who can’t cope and I think I’m scared to be “well” as I will have more responsibility lumped on me and I already find my life as a wife and mother to my 3 yr old & 6 month old is overwhelming.

Not sure what I’m trying to say here – but that’s where my mind is currently at – I feel like I am going round and round in circles. Any insight???

Thanks
I'm OK

7/9/095:45 PM

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whereamiMember

Hi I'm Ok

quote:
Today I coped being a mum to my two kids - but I didn’t feel proud. I felt ashamed and guilty. It’s almost like I don’t want to cope.

I actaully do get what you are saying, though honestly, i am not sure how to articulate it in a response better than you just have! I will say that just by acknowledging the above, you are doing a great job being a mom.

It is scary to move forward into the unknown, when just coping is all we know. Yesterday with my T we talked about taking the next step past that point and needing the drive to get there, and how scary it is to think about what is on the other side. That is overwhelming to me too But the fact is, just by coping each day you are doing a great job, and each day you do that, you have a lot to be proud of, and will tolerate as much as you can. Try not to overwhelm yourself by putting more expectations upon yourself than you are necessary for today, or for tommorrow.

Not sure if this makes any sense at all, but I did want to try and let you know that I get what you are trying to say.

whereamI

7/9/096:06 PM

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openwindowsMember

I think whereami is right. I say "I can't" to myself all the time but the truth is that we "do." We get through each day coping with more than we thought we could, sometimes much more than we thought we could.

I never had the encouragement either growing up, and a lot of people who made me feel like I would never be able to do or cope with much of anything. I have to remind myself every day that I am doing the best job I can. I have to shut down the voices that tell me I am failing. The proof is right there in front of me - three kids who love me and who know I love them.

I'm getting a little better at believing the positive voices and shutting down the negative ones, but it is a deliberate effort on my part.

When I first started seeing my T she had me write down things that happened to me throughout the day as they happened, and my reaction to them. What people said, how I reacted, what I thought, conflicting thoughts. I never realized how bad it really was, until I saw it written down. I could see the pattern of my flawed thinking patterns, and begin to work on changing it.

OW

7/9/096:33 PM

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imokMember

I have been reading and re-reading this thread and each time I do I pick up on something new. I wish I could read and re-read what was said in my sessions with my T - why can’t our Ts give us a transcripts of our sessions?!

quote:
I don't think that this happiness means that we are 100% happy with all of our qualities...I think that we learn to accept some of our qualities and sort of not judge them so harshly

mlc – How do we accept our not so good bits? How do we forgive ourselves for our past mistakes?

My T says I’m a very “All or Nothing” or “Black and White” thinker.... I’m either perfect (which is never) or I’m at the other end of the scale which means I am a complete failure.

I read a post somewhere recently where Attachment Girl posted something about making a list of her positive qualities. I don’t even have the guts to acknowledge that I might have some positives.

My T thinks that I am worried about losing support if I get to a place where I am well and can cope. I don’t know if she is/isn’t right on this one but then again she has often seen the light well before i have on other matters!

Need to go and attend to my 6 month old - back soon!

7/9/098:14 PM

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imokMember

Now where was I.....

quote:
I sometimes wonder if this is where we go wrong, we identify so strongly with the parts of us that can't and don't cope and not with the parts that do.

HB– This is so true. But it is so much easier to identify with these negative parts as it is so much easier to think of all the things I have said / done to support my arguments that I am hopeless.

If I am really honest, I guess in some childlike way I am just hoping I can change me – change me enough to be perfect – which I know is impossible – but I think that if I was perfect then I would never feel like crap again. I know it’s wishful thinking – maybe that’s why I am so stuck at the moment. I just can’t accept that I need to give up the idea of ever being perfect. I can’t accept the idea of having to learn that I need to have self acceptance that I will have qualities or parts of me that I don’t like – some of which may change but some that won’t because that’s what makes me me.

I know all this may not be making sense to you but I think I’ve (FINALLY!) hit on an important point which I have been struggling with which is my fear of giving up my perfection / all or nothingness behaviour. Don't know where to go with it from here - other than probably mention it to my T!

quote:
What he was saying was that I disregard all the positive, the places i do well, the days i manage, the circumstances i cope and do well in and the more i focus on what is wrong and what i can't do the more negatives i see and the more true it becomes.

HB - My T says exactly the same thing to me but I feel at the moment that focusing on the positives is just like a homework exercise to try and make me feel better. It doesn’t feel genuine.

For example, I feel that I should cope as a mum – so when I’m trying to pat myself on the back for feeding my kids, doing their washing etc, I don’t feel like I’ve done something that is huge. Sme as when I am feeling depressed and I force myself to shower / get dressed and my T encourages me to acknowledge the fact that rather than stay in bed and not face the day focus on the fact that I chose to get up and the shower. She says "focus on what I have done and have achieved and not on what I have/haven't done".

I know it's all good advice from my T but I find this so particularly frustrating at the moment as I feel like I should just be able to do these normal everyday tasks anyway. It makes me feel so angry at me that I just don’t have the (emotional?) regulation to do this stuff automatically, and then I'm supposed to be like this cheer squad to myself going "yes, I did it, I had a shower"!! Makes me feel like even more of a loser.

Back to baby duties again...

7/9/098:46 PM

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imokMember

quote:
I mean, doing the things to stay well is not all that difficult, so I am wondering what you are carrying along with the 'trying')?

mlc - I found that comment fascinating. I find the most basic everyday tasks so difficult. I don't know what I might / might not be carrying along with the trying? That's such an interesting perspective on it.

When my mind is in a good place, doing the things to stay well do seem easier but right now I've hit a bit of a rough patch and the effort required feels huge.

I think my T gets frustrated with me - not that she ever shows it - but surely she must think "I'm giving you the skills to change but unless you do the actual work with the skills you aren't going to reap the benefits". Hence I know she says to me:
- focus on the basics
- focus on what you have / have not achieved
- when you are feeling overwhelmed, stop and break the tasks down into smaller bits.
- use mindfulness to help you stay in the moment so you avoid getting overwhelmed by all the other things that need doing and actually have the opportunity to fully focus on being mindful of what I am currently doing (ie: if washing the dishes, feel the hot water on my hands, notice how the plates feel, look outside the kitchen window and notice what the weather's like, etc)
- challenge my irrational thinking using CBT
- exercise to get the endorphins going
- don't drink too much alcohol as it is a well known depressant
- do my relaxation cd regularly to keep my activiation levels in check

As I said in an earlier post I don't know why I find the above helpful advice so tiring or why I am avoiding her helpful advice. Why would I choose to make things harder for me? Normally I'm really motivated in therapy but everything just seems on top of me at present and too hard. Why won't I just implement what she says? Why I am finding myself so stuck?

I'm so sorry for venting. I feel like I have the answers from my T to get me to a stable place but for some reason I seem unwilling to do what she asks (ie: as in the list above). This is not like me - or maybe it - or maybe I just don't know who I am.

7/9/099:10 PM

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imokMember

That's so not fair! I just wrote the longest reply and it's gone.

I knew I should have done a draft in email or Microsoft Word first - hopefully I'll be back later & try posting again.

7/12/093:55 AM

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imokMember

HB– Wow, what an amazing reply!

I love your “eavesdropping” comment and the fact you can appreciate that our “I can’ts” are so closely tied in with our “All or Nothing” or “Black & White” thinking styles. This style of thinking, is for me anyway, EVERYWHERE! I don’t even realise most of the time that this is what I am doing. I am so comfortable that “I’m right and have looked at all the scenarios” when it actual fact I’m not even close, and don’t even realise how far I am from thinking in a manner that is NOT grey until my T points it out.

I wonder, how do we learn to think without any “grey” areas in the first place? I hope I’m teaching my children to include “grey” in their thinking – but then again if I don’t even know that I’m thinking this way in the first place, what hope do they have?

“Deliciously Murky” - I love this description as a way of coping with the “grey areas”. Speaking of which, how did your T teach you to sit with the “uncertainty” and the uncomfortable nature of not being black or white? I still find it intolerable (which I know sounds over the top – but that’s where I’m at with this stuff).

quote:
I guess i truly didn't know how i was, i knew who i should be and how i should behave and what things i should say and want, but it turns out, i am really not like that at all.

HB - What did you mean by the above comment? Who did you think you were? And who did you actually turn out to be? I think this is something I am struggling with too.

Lastly, I had a crap day. As you probably know, we are renovating our new home and the builders made our master bedroom short by almost 900mm (that's almost a metre) and now the front door opens into our bedroom.

I just feel with my postnatal depression, the fact I have to care for my 6 month old and 3 year old that I could have done without this additional stressor too. I really do want to live in a perfect world but instead I live in a world where there is grey and builders can't even read there own measurements.

Thanks again to all the people who ready my posts - I still can't believe that complete strangers could take the time to care about a girl from "Down Under" and all her problems / issues.

Cheers!
I'm OK

7/12/094:17 AM

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learningtoflyMember

Hi again I'm OK,
The black and white thinking is hard to shake, but it's actually one of the few things i am getting better at. I think. One major issue for me was trust. It was either I can trust someone or I can't. No in between. But i've learned there are actually levels of trust. I don't have to trust someone with my deepest secrets to trust them at all. Someone can break my trust it doesn't mean i can't have them in my life. (Still working on that one though!) But i guess my point is you need to try to look for the grey stuff. It doesn't come naturally for a lot of us!

Sounds like you're actually coping really well with everything you've got going on. Make sure you give yourself some credit for that.

Builders suck don't they!? Are they going to fix it? When we were building, our builders laid our slab 3m to the right of where we wanted it. Doesn't sound like much but on a block of land that's the difference between our patio sitting against our fence and it being in the back yard! They initially refused to fix their mistake, we had to get solicitors involved and eventually they dug it up and started over. But the whole process was so stressful and drawn out i actually separated with my husband before the house was even finished and i never even got to live in the house i designed (not that that had much to do with the break up but it didn't help). Not meaning to make this about me, just sharing my bad builder story. Must be aussie builders huh!

Anyway, i'm glad you're finding the support you need here.

LTF

7/13/093:34 AM

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imokMember

Hi All

Does anyone struggle with an issue (such as I have above) and then a week later the issue doesn't seem such an issue anymore? The urgency settles down, the emotional level around the issue drops off and life just starts to go on again. Well that's where I'm at this week - no complaints from me!

Also, can't remember which forum I read the two following quotes in but they helped me immensely (so a BIG thank you to whoever you are)....

1) "It is when being yourself is enough and you no longer need the caregiver to help you survive because you can manage and you connect not for survival but for the expression of what is in your heart."

2) "I can still vividly remember saying to my T in a session "but I'll get hurt" and him looking at me and saying "so what?" (He knows the good use of an occasional shock that man.) It was such an incredibly foreign concept. My life and so much of what I did and the choices I made were organized around NOT getting hurt because I had no idea what to do with the pain if I felt it. Learning what to do with the pain is what has freed me. My T has told me over and over that in any relationship, even my relationship with him which is totally focused on my needs, there will be disappointments and failures. I'm going to get hurt. But that doesn't mean the end of the relationship or my destruction. The point of relationship is to get what you need to repair the hurt and continue. There's an incredible freedom in it and in realizing that you have the strength you need. Thanks for this reminder."

I love this place - it's like mini sessions with my T on topics that we have already covered but the reminders here are important in making sure that new lessons continue to sink in until they are my new automatic way of thinking.

Have a great night all (well at least it's night time in Australia!)

I'm OK

7/20/094:19 AM

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sarahbrownMember

I know there are alot of counseling places out there, but i just want to share with this community what has made all the difference for my family and that is inhome family counseling, plus life coaching. I ran into a company called Harmony Crisis Management Group. www.harmonycmg.com and they have counselors around the country. I'm sure if you mention my name they know who i am bc i have thanked them so much. They sent a counselor into my home as opposed to having to go to an office and it made all the difference for us so i wanted to share that with you all. Thank you. Best of luck!

7/23/0911:31 PM

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