Wanted to add a recent example of something T said that I interpreted as being both caring and insensitive.

Last week T wasn't sure he'd be able to fit me in on Thursday. I was finally able to get an appointment Thursday afternoon for Thursday evening. We discussed during that appointment then what would have happened if he couldn't have gotten me in. He said he would have called me (very caring) and spent 5 minutes on the phone with me (insensitive????). If he just left it at "I would have called you to see how you were doing" - even if he intended to only spend five minutes with me on the phone, that would have come across as being much more caring than actually pointing out that he would only spend five minutes on the phone with me.

He has been especially insensitive (in my book) in the last couple of weeks and of course at other times too. But it definitely comes in spurts. Is it him? Is it his personality? Or is it his style of therapy? If he says these things to demonstrate what caring is vs. noncaring, then I don't have a problem with it and I think I can continue to work with him. Are they boundary reminders? Yes, I care but I am a busy person and there are limits to my caring? (I haven't been an especially demanding patient.)

Just wondering what others think? Of course, this could be good therapy fodder and only T can tell me what he was thinking.

Liese,

I think you hit the nail on the head when you suggested that his comment about "spending 5 mins on the phone with you" was a boundary reminder. Its like saying, "My caring is real, but it has limits just like every body else".

It's difficult to say whether or not he truly does care or if he just cares because its his job. I would trust your own gut on this. It can tell us a lot if we chose to listen.

LG,

My gut always gets me into trouble!!! LOL!!!

We're supposed to feel safe in therapy and not judged, right? On the other hand, we are there to learn about ourselves. And that might not always be pretty or feel good. But I imagine that if we trust our T's, then it makes that part of it a little easier, right?

So, for instance, when I was on the phone with my T this past weekend, telling him all the things that happened in the past month that made me feel insecure, my view of it was that I was sharing important information with him. I was freaking out and was panicking. I'm thinking he's my T and he #1 hopefully can help me get past it and #2 should know how I am reacting to things if he's going to help me.

So, we're on the phone and he makes the comment, "geez, I'm really going to have to walk on eggshells around you."

#1, he might have been giving me valuable feedback regarding how he was experiencing and how others might experience me.

#2, I was in panic attack mode and really wanted reassurance. Not sure his comment was helpful.

Discussed comment with him this week. I told him that I want to be able to share my inner world with him and I don't want to worry about how he is going to react. Oh, is this going to make him feel like he's walking on eggshells? I'm trying to heal and I don't want to conceal information from him. That would be counterproductive.

He agreed that I shouldn't have to worry about his feelings and that he was just kind of making a mental note to himself.

So, really, just kind of confused. Trying to feel safe with him and express myself. Do really want to learn about myself also. But not sure I feel entirely safe with him yet, so not sure I'm ready to hear the negative things he may want to tell me.

Yikes, does anyone understand my dilemma???? Any insight, suggestions???

Hi Draggers,

We crossposted. I'm not going to ignore your post. Thank you so much. It meant a lot to me. We all talk about the process so much but I don't really know what the process is. We go. We talk. We hurt. We cry. I try to laugh once in a while. In learning to be interdependent and sensitive and caring human beings, don't we have to share what's going on with us?

Hey DF,

Thanks for your input. It's hard to hear this but definitely helpful information. I feel like such a failure. Why can't I make therapy work? On to therapist #9? I just really want f**king help. What am I doing wrong? Why do I feel like I'm doing something wrong?

I was just doing research on the therapeutic alliance. And it seems there are three factors that are important: agreement on goals, agreement on tasks, and the affectional bond. I've always really liked him, except for the narky things he has said - which seem to be pretty often lately. UGGGHHHHHH.

I think your T was out of line in saying that he is going to have walk on egg shells around you. He's a T for christsake...he needs to be walking on egg shells around ALL of his clients.

His comment suggests that he thinks you are overly sensitive. Why couldn't he have just said that, but in more professional terms. "you are very sensitive to the words of others", etc. the eggshell comment is the kind of thing we come to expect from our friends and family....but not our T's!! He screwed up on that one.

Hi LG,

I have been reading about projective identification. It's like projection but happens in the context of a relationship. One person projects their feelings onto the second person, who accepts the projected feelings as their own, even if they are not in fact their feelings. I do this all the time. And, so, yes, I am sensitive to the words of others. I guess it's part of my missing identity piece.

T actually talked about that this week but didn't mention me directly. He must have brought it up in the context of "me" but how it related to what we were talking about, now I'm not sure. He said that when he used to work with kids who get very upset about being called say, fat and ugly, how he would try to help them deal with it, like for instance ask yourself if it's true. Once you are able to self-soothe, then you move on to step #2 which is when you acknowledge that this person may actually not be a nice person and then you move away from them and make new friends.

I do know that Stage 1 of trauma treatment is relationship building. And if part of relationship building is being able to withstand the sometimes insensitive statements of the people around us, then maybe that is what we are doing. But who is to know for sure? My thought is that he will resent me if he feels he has to walk on eggshells because isn't that what most people mean when they make a comment like that? Stop trying to control me, stop trying to control what I say. I don't want to be controlled. I just want to be who I am.

I actually had a really good friend who used to talk all the time to me about all the parties her daughter was invited to, etc. It would trigger anxiety in me because my daughter the same age wasn't being invited to the parties. I used to kind of cry to her, why don't you think the girls like her? She would always reassure me that the girls did like my daughter. But she would keep talking about all these parties to me, almost gloating. I never asked her to stop talking about the parties but did think it was pretty insensitive of her to keep bringing it up knowing it made me feel insecure. She did make a comment to me about another relationship that she had that fell apart because she felt like she had to "walk on eggshells" around the woman and monitor what she talked about. I guess to some degree we all want to feel like we can talk about whatever we want with our friends but it seems to me that if I know that a particular friend has a particular sensitivity about say, learning disorders because her child has a learning disorder, then I'm not going to gloat to that friend when my child excels in school .. maybe I will tell a different friend about my child's success but not that one ... in my view it would be terribly insensitive to do so and I would not mind adjusting my behavior for my friend. Am I wrong about this? Or would it be my friends responsibility to come to terms with her feelings about having an LD child and me having one that's not LD????? Naaaa, I don't think I would be mind being sensitive.

((((((MONTE))))))

Thanks. Always nice to know someone is in the same boat!!! He tells me he's my teacher and I can trust him. It's just so hard for me to tell the difference in therapy because it is my interaction with him that is painful. Although I find relationships in general painful which is why I stay away from them. Maybe learning to tolerate and lessen the pain would be helpful. I wonder if I completely trusted him, would I doubt his motives? But maybe he's trying to "bring to my attention" some of the reasons why I don't trust him. Of course, he could just tell me why I don't trust him but probably wouldn't be as effective as me EXPERIENCING reasons for mistrust.

((Liese))

Your T's comment about walking on eggshells is really horrible. I hate the whole idea of calling someone overly sensitive in any way. It is such a judgemental concept. We are all sensitive to different things because of our life experiences. My T has always managed to validate my feelings by saying something like "I can see why you feel that way" even as he explains how things are to him or what he meant by what he said.

My T has always been very caring but I don't think I recognized that until recently (after about 2 years). I've been seeing him for over 2.5 years. I think what is most important is how does your T change in response to your concerns. I was often furious at my T for things that he did and I still struggle with trusting him but we've adapted to each other. He told me that the therapeutic relationship is different everytime. He would never have told me it was okay to call before we had talked at length about my fear that I was bothering him when I contacted him and that it would ruin the therapeutic relationship.

I hope you can get validation and understanding when you discuss things with your T.

Di

Incognito and AG,

Thank you both for weighing in. I really appreciate your input. I may just take a week off from T and consult with someone.

I know I want to grow and change. I know I'm committed to myself. And I know sometimes it's going to hurt. But I'm starting to sense that T and I are wrapped in MY warped pattern and for some reason he's unable to get me out of it.

I started therapy in college right after the rape but couldn't talk to the therapist much because I was so traumatized. Since then, I've intermittently tried to go back to therapy but always left. I'm counting therapists I've consulted with once. One my pediatrician recommended told me upon meeting me that my now 16 year old was going to be on drugs after I told her that my daughter kicked the back of my seat because I wouldn't buy her taco bell. (She's actually now an awesome student, doesn't drink or do drugs and is getting ready for college.) I didn't go back to that therapist. Another one wanted me to play in her sandbox. I wasn't comfortable with that. Another one just fizzled out after a while. The one before this T I ran from because I started having panic attacks. I haven't been in these long therapeutic relationships and keep leaving. Most were short-term.

This one I have liked the most. And, so I will have to think about it long and hard. Thanks again everyone. Really really appreciate your input.

((((((HUGS))))))

Liese

Just wanted to update everyone since I last posted on this thread. But also wanted to thank everyone for their input and for encouraging me to explore my feelings further. I feel so EMPOWERED!!! You gotta love it.

Since Friday, I went on two consultations.

Found T#1 on google. Advertises as a trauma T. Thought that would be an interesting angle. T#1 has an office in an affluent village, charges $150.00 an hour and doesn't take insurance. He validated all my perceptions and decided it is all probably financial. He thinks current T is giving preference on his "float" list to the higher paying clients. This explains his secretary's guilt. Since he himself charges $150.00/an hour, he saw nothing wrong with that. I guess at the end of the day, it is a business. Encouraged me to go back to him to address things further. He told me to call him if I needed him but I told him I couldn't afford him.

T#2's name I got from current T. Current T gave me two names for my H. My H called this T but played phone tag. So my H is now going to the other T.

Anyway, T#2 kept me waiting for 45 minutes. His office was a disaster. He looked more like the down-to-earth intellectual psychologist who really knows his shit. He had more of a problem with current t. (Which I secretly delighted in since current T gave me his name. So evil!!) T#2 validated my perceptions. Wasn't so sure if T was trying to renegotiate my fee but was suspicious that this is what's going on. Feels the fee should be decided upon when you start working together.

However, I do have to make a couple of arguments in current t's defense. I told him recently that I thought his float list was "exposure therapy". He looked horrified and so maybe felt he needed to straighten out my crazy thoughts. He also really knows I struggle with the float list and it causes me a lot of anxiety. And, so, all this stuff about the money talk lately could just be his way of letting me know that it is a business and nothing personal. He does have clients paying out of pocket twice what he gets from me and my insurance company. If I was paying that, wouldn't I want first dibs at his float list? His float list may be the only way the financial thing has affected me. I've gotten a second weekly appointment for three months in a row.

It kind of also explains the "i'm going to have to walk on eggshells with you" comment because if his intent was to let me know that none of this is personal and that there are financial reasons for some of his decisions, then perhaps he felt a little annoyed or maybe even guilty. It's all very interesting. Learning so much how to read people and the things they say. Even when they say they don't mean something.

Lately I have been feeling as though I'm hitting a wall everytime I try to go "deeper" with t or talk about the trauma. Of course, I kept thinking it was me, that I wasn't doing therapy right, etc. I beat myself up anyway I possibly can. Now, I'm thinking that the wall was there because he knows he's considering dropping my insurance company and maybe he wants to ask for more money than he knows I can afford. Maybe he didn't want me to open up a can of worms until he decides what he's doing with my insurance company and if I stay with him or not. Won't know until I talk to him about it.

At the end of the day, it hurts to know it is a buiness. But it is a business. With a little quick math, at most T could gross MAX $200,000.00. He has a big office with three receptionists and I'm sure a bookeeper. He can't be making a ton of money considering we live in the NY metropolitan area. $65.00 a session is NOT a lot considering he's a Ph.D.

T#2 felt like the real deal kind of guy you guys always talk about. He gave me his email address and told me to email him if I needed him. What a nice guy. The negatives are his disorganization. He doesn't have a secretary and so can be difficult to reach. Kept me waiting for 45 minutes. I don't even know if he would take me on as a client. I don't know if he would take my insurance although the T seeing my H takes it and they have their practice together.

Current T is always prompt. Never have to wait. He never goes away. Allows out of session phone calls. Perhaps I can supplement my copay and get first dibs at those extra appointments. (My old OBGYN asked for a voluntary copay. for 40.00 extra you got a call back from the doctor, 20 extra and you get a call back from the nurse. If you didn't pay at all, you won't get a call back if you have a question.) This is the NY metropolitan area and people are pretty status conscious.

Will have followup conversation with T tomorrow to see if I can get him to be a little more honest about what's been going on and what his true intentions are. Have decided that I won't even begin to consider staying with him unless he can make a commitment to me at a set price for a period of time. Afterwards, might contact T number 2 to see if we could work together and if not, if he has any recommendations.

Hate hate hate the thought of starting over with someone new. Even having to go over the last 4 years of my life with someone would be draining and time-consuming. But I know I can do it if I have to. Ready to say goodbye if that's what it means.

Just want to thank everyone again. You were all extremely helpful.

(((((HUGS))))))

Liese

Hi Liese,

I'm sorry you're having such a tricky time figuring out what your current T's motives are, and what to do next.

I feel concerned for how much guess work you are doing at the moment; I feel like you shouldn't have to work so hard to understand what is going on with your therapy and why. I don't know the US system, but it seems terrible to me that someone should get preference at appointments because they are paying more. To me it seems unethical, and I really hope that is not what is happening. I think your T should be able to make it very clear to you on what basis the float list is worked out, and I think for me I would expect that it would be basically first-come-first-serve, with some priority for emergencies. But in fact, now that I think about it, I'm not even sure I understand this idea of a 'float list'. Is this a waiting list for cancellations? How many cancellations can there be in a week?

I sort of get the feeling you are more comfortable thinking of him making decisions based on money rather than other priorities, is that right? But I feel like this money stuff should be really straight forward and predictable. You shouldn't have to buy your T's attention. And I think the idea of waiting each week to see if I could get extra attention would really drive me crazy. I do hope you can get some very straight answers from him in your next session. I think the wall you talk about will be there at least until you are sure you have a stable, comfortable, boundaried agreement that is not subject to changing for emotional or other circumstantial ups and downs.

You mentioned the secretary and T whipping the appointment book out of your view at one point - not sure where you said this. This happens at my T's practice too, and it's a confidentiality issue. Occasionally the T will forget to protect the book from your sight, as a client, and a couple of times I've seen another T notice and leap to shift it away - so people's names are protected.

Take care Liese. I know you hate the idea of starting again with someone new, but if you are really stuck with this T or he's not clear enough and boundaried enough for you, you may find you are losing a lot of time and energy on unproductive work. I have found with my new T that it has been WELL worth the change. I was sick at the thought of going through everything again (4th time in 2 yrs) but with a really good new T, even the introductory work is helpful.

T2 sounds kinda hopeful, but I think the disorganization is actually an issue, especially given how long he kept you waiting. If you *are* going to change, you might as well find someone you are *really* happy with.

J

quote:

Lately I have been feeling as though I'm hitting a wall everytime I try to go "deeper" with t or talk about the trauma. Of course, I kept thinking it was me, that I wasn't doing therapy right, etc. I beat myself up anyway I possibly can. Now, I'm thinking that the wall was there because he knows he's considering dropping my insurance company and maybe he wants to ask for more money than he knows I can afford. Maybe he didn't want me to open up a can of worms until he decides what he's doing with my insurance company and if I stay with him or not. Won't know until I talk to him about it.

Hi Liese, It's late and I'm exhausted and have to get up early for work but I wanted to offer a brief comment on your thread.

I'm very sorry that you are sufficiently upset and confused by your current T to have to go and seek consultation elsewhere but I do think it's a good thing to do. Getting a second opinion is always helpful and I'm sorry I didn't do that before my own therapy with oldT exploded and caused me so much harm.

As for the quote above... I honestly think that your T is resisting going where you want to go with the trauma is that he has NO idea what to do with this information. He is out of his depth with trauma and it's not at all that you are not doing therapy correctly, it's that your T does not know how to be a psychodynamic therapist which is what you are really looking for and wanting him to be.

What you describe is exactly the kinds of things I had written in my journal about oldT. That he was not going where i wanted to go, that he was resisting my talking about the past and my history and he had no real knowledge about how to handle trauma, how to integrate it and process it. He had no real psychological interpretations for my feelings and I had to do the work for both of us and it just made therapy that much more difficult and even dangerous in that my feelings (most times) were not contained and then he came to resent my needing extra support for the way he would mishandle things in session. All in all not a good thing.

I wish you luck in trying to talk to him about all of what concerns you and I hope he does have valid responses that make sense. I'm not sure how much of this is financial and that may be a part of the picture but I think the bigger part is that he is out of his depth.

Just my humble opinion. I'm glad to see you being proactive in this Liese.

I'll be back in the morning...
TN

Jones, 4 times in two years. That's resilience. Last post I read about manatee, you were happy. How did you go about finding a new T? What types of things did you find helpful?

It's been really difficult reading between the lines. Especially because I have been really relying on him lately to make emotional interpretations. No wonder I felt as though I was caught in some wierd loop with him and couldn't get out. I WAS in a wierd loop with him.

His float list is a cancellation list. I think he actually keeps a certain percentage of open appointments every week for people who call in needing extra appointments. And then there are always cancellations. I'm so glad to hear you would struggle with that too. I've hated his float list since the beginning. I always thought it was first come first serve but it would explain his secretary's guilt when I gave her a christmas present. I was picking up on something going on but didn't know what it was. It would make me feel better if it was financial rather than personal - which is where I always go first.

Current T's receptionist is actually behind a glass-enclosed counter with a window. When we go to look for appointmnets, the book is upside down and I cannot read it. They have never covered it up with their hands before so that was kind of unusual. I don't really know if there was anything to that but an hour later T himself called to give me an appointment after I called to have my name taken off the float list and then that next appointment was when his secretary made the comment, I'm sorry what I put you through. Just kind of putting all the puzzle pieces together. Won't know for sure unless T confesses.

the money thing is really hard. But it's also the area I live in. I'm not status conscious but there are lots and lots of people around me who are. You kind of get used to it. I'm trying to sort out how I would really feel about it if it turns out that's how he decides who gets an extra appointment or not. Just wondering how I would feel myself if I was paying $125.00 cash for a session and T was giving open appointments to the $65.00 client. Wonder about the ethics of it. I'll have to do some research.

T#2 today made an interesting comment that he should be able to make me feel safe and if he can't, I really shouldn't stick around. Silly me, I always think all this anxiety is part of my therapy. I agree with you about the disorganization. And I'm not sure I really clicked with T#2. He was nice enough. His office did feel more like home. LOL. Going on these consultations is so time consuming and draining. My H knows I'm in therapy, of course, but I don't talk to him about the issues I go through. So, he doesn't know about this. I feel bad not sharing it with him but then again, therapy is hard. You are right, if I'm going to start over, I might as well find someone I really like.

TN, thanks for being so supportive and sharing your experience with me. Actually T2 was surprised that I've been in therapy with current T for so long and I haven't learned that much about myself. We haven't identified emotional patterns. I've been finding it frustrating but definitely have been passive about it. I keep trying different tactics,etc. I told T#2 that I didn't know how to get to where I wanted to go. He stated that I shouldn't have to know, that the T should be skilled enough to get me there. It was the first time that I considered the possibility that current t might not be as skilled as he thinks he is. He's full of confidence and I have been buying into it.

DF, Thank you as always for your support. It's been really validating for me to get the support of these other T's and liberating knowing that the angst I've been feeling was not just all in my head. I'm so bad at that and that's exactly why I go to therapy. I'm proud of myself too considering how difficult the last three months have been and how low my level of functioning has been. It gives me hope that I will get stronger and can get stronger.

I know I'm trying to sound so brave about being okay about the money thing and the float list, if these T's are right that this is what's going on. My H is in business for himself and so I do understand what it's like to run a business and it's not easy. Economic reality is a reality. The harsh realities of life. If I am honest with myself, though, it is painful and sad. I would like to think that he does really care about me and that it doesn't all come down to money.

He has told me that if he drops my plan, he will keep me on at $65.00 a session. Am I just rationalizing or isn't that pretty nice considering I think he really wants $80 and upwards? I think I do have to consider that he does have his Ph.D. and we do live in the metropolitan NY area. I paid T#2 today $125.00 for his consultation although if I went to him and he took my insurance, it would of course be a different story.

T#1 told me he wanted 150.00 for the consult. I offered him 100.00. He sounded a little annoyed but laughed and accepted it. When I got there, I told him that was the first time I actually negotiated a fee like that and that all my therapy must be working. He replied that I was the first person who ever tried to negotiate a fee with him.

I will let you know how it goes today with current T, who isn't feeling so steady anymore.

Thanks again for all your support. What would I do without the forum? You guys are the best!

Liese

Hi Liese,

So far I am really happy with Manatee. We'll see how it goes! My options were limited for a new T, because I wanted to stay in the same practice (they have about 8-10 Ts there, some of whom specialise in kids or families or business) so it was just luck, really. Art T looked on paper like she would be perfect for me but totally wasn't, so mostly I just had to be clear about what I wanted with myself and recognise that I *wasn't* getting what I wanted, but that it was okay still to want it. She was really passive, for example. I could have told myself that I had a problem with that because I needed to be more proactive myself, but that wouldn't have been helpful for me, because a) I was already trying to be proactive and b) I had no idea how to be MORE proactive than I was being and c) I already knew that other Ts were more active than her, and it worked for me.

I do notice you doing a lot of reading between the lines with your T - sort of imagining scenarios or explanations to make sense of things and give yourself some comfort in uncertainty. But I'm not sure if that makes you any safer, because those explanations aren't solid until you are fully communicating and know for sure what the reality is - who knows what we haven't imagined yet? So it could make things less stable for you because the explanation could shift very suddenly - does that make sense?

I thought the secretary's comment was bizarre, and well over the boundaries for her position. I'm sorry she said that to you. It would drive me crazy not to know what she meant by that, too!

As for preferring it to be financial rather than personal, well, what if it's neither? For example that one day he told you there was no appointment but you saw a crossed-out name - what if he had a supervision session he needed to set up and thought he might have to use that time, or what if he knew that the woman who cancelled was feeling very unstable and probably needed the appointment and might well change her mind after a phone call, or he knew he needed to meet his accountant that day but had to check the time with him first, etc, etc. I guess this is what I mean by the danger of imagining the answer - there's so much that one might not imagine.

Well, keep us posted. I hope you manage to get some more clarity.

((((((((Liese))))))))

Wow Liese I’ve been following your posts with interest and had to put in an appearance to say how much I admire you for the way you are handling what would be to me a really upsetting and scary situation with your T. Good on you for getting those two consults and for continuing to go with your instinctive doubts about T (instead of shoving your own perceptions away in favour of accepting T’s way of relating to you as ‘correct’).

From what I’ve read, it’s not just the money thing is it? There seem to have been a number of ‘red flags’ for some time (indeed some of the things you’ve described your T saying would have had me packing my little handerkerchief and heading for the hills!)

On the one hand I hope you are able to really talk openly about all the different issues coming up for you in relation to him, and that he comes up trumps - so that your therapy can get on track. On the other hand it sounds to me like you are carrying most of the therapy yourself (and I wholeheartedly agree with - who? I can’t find the quote now grrr - that it shouldn’t be down to you to know what to do or where to go in therapy, that’s his job) and that maybe this T isn’t right for you (that’s me being nice instead of saying that I think he’s incompetent and insensitive )

If it’s any comfort to you I have seen a total of 25 different Ts throughout my life (19 of those in the last 2 years - including anything from three sessions right up to six months duration) and struggled to find even one that was able to help me - after spending a LOT of time blaming myself for therapy apparently not working, I decided to stop seeing T's as knowing anymore than me about what I needed - and relied on my own instincts (admittedly not THAT trustworthy, but at the end of the day what else can you trust?) to tell me whether a T was being helpful or not. Lol my life is littered with failed attempts at finding the right T, but I still stick to holding out for what I think I need. Not that I’d recommend working your way through as many Ts as I have - just saying that it can sometimes take making hard and scary decisions to find the right T.

All that just to say good for you for questioning whether this T is giving you what you need and for taking a stand on your own behalf. I hope you can come to a decision one way or the other soon. (And I don’t envy you having to go out looking for a new T if that’s what you decide, it IS hard and the thought of having to start from scratch can be really disheartening - but in the long run can only be good for you.)

Good luck with this Liese I’ll be thinking of you and hoping it works out the way you need it to.

LL

Jones, yes, I do read between the lines a lot. My only guess for why I do that is that there was absolutely no communication in my FOO. We had to read between the lines, read my mother's emotions, what would make her happy etc. It must be a bad habit from long ago that is really hard to break. Part of the work I thought I've been doing with T is bringing things up with him and opening the lines of communication. Bringing up scary things with him has helped me bring up scary thing with my H. We never actually discussed that we were doing this, so not for certain again, just reading between the lines.

In some of the psych literature that you guys have recommended, I see that they refer to reality testing as part of the healing process. And, I've wondered if that's what they are referring to, that when you are able to actually more openly evaluate what you think is going on in the world and ask the questions you need to ask. I wasn't sure if it referred to the "self" or "relationships". Like for instance, an example of the self testing might be if I had an idea in my head that I am a master basketball player though in reality stink but persist in thinking that I'm this amazing basketball player and don't actually go out into the world to "test" this. Or do go into the world and test it and continually fail but place the blame on other people as opposed to recognizing I'm just not that good.

and then of course, there is the relationship piece and what you pointed out jones, that i'm constantly trying to figure out what's going on between my T and I as opposed to just asking him, so how do I do this therapy? what do I talk about? How can YOU help me?????

LL, Thank you also for weighing in and for your support. I remember following your journey in the fall and if I remember correctly, you finally found someone you feel really comfortable with??? Your story didn't scare me but is giving me the inspiration to do what I need to do. All of you are so brave and I've been following your stories as you go along. I can't be thankful enough that I found the forum. It's been an amazing resource and source of support. Anyone of us can get so bumped around in the world, even by these therapists who are just people afterall and probably for the most part, have the best intentions.

One of the things that has been gnawing at me with current T is that he comes across as a businessman and not a therapist. In my mind I've been trying to find a match with how he presents himself and does this equal caring? I actually brought it up to him last week. I told him that we had to discuss something and I hoped it didn't come across as offensive. You look like someone who takes really good care of themself. And in my mind, I equate that with selfishness. He said au contrere. Well, not really, I'm paraphrasing here. (Don't know French, did I spell that right?) He said the more he takes care of himself, the better he can take care of his patients, students, family and friends. That old oxygen mask analogy. Yes, it makes sense. I told him that maybe if he was a little overweight and had a beard that maybe he would come across as caring. It's his persona that is bugging me. And the irony is that the money thing is actually a problem now as he's considering dropping my insurance company - which almost confirms my perceptions, here and now as I'm struggling full-on with my abandonment issues with him and have been in a big way since October and that this is the time that he decides to bring all this up and drop my insurance company????

But I do have to point out to everyone that when I run out of sessions, he charges me only $65.00 a session. When I first went to him, I had already run out of sessions from my Old T. At that point, he charged me $80.00 a session. And, so I really can't say he's money hungry like the guy I saw in the village who charges $150.00 an hour and doesn't take insurance.

He's kind of cute. His wedding ring just came off so I'm sure he's out there dating. He wears nice clothes. He's extremely fit. His office is extremely organized. His practice is organized. He rarely runs over. He teaches two classes, sees a million patients. But I just can't seem to relax and open up with him.

I'm not really sure what I need to know from him today. I guess maybe just opening up the insurance discussion, etc. asking him if he can help me open up emotionally. I'm kind of feeling as though I'm not quite ready to move on and I'm not quite ready to stay with him either. I have to feel things out for a while maybe. I thought about seeing him today and telling him I'm going to take a break for a month and try another therapist in the meantime. But not telling him that. Have any of you ever done that? This way I could keep my slot but see if I could find someone better or someone I click with more. With the way I've been since the fall, I really hate to go any length of time without a therapist.

Jones, I really related to something you said about how you felt as though in the past that the therapist was too passive and not helping you enough to get you to where you wanted to go. That's exactly how I've felt with T. I've just assumed that he won't bring things up until I do. But because I'm such a pleaser, I freak out when there are no rules. I would do cartwheels and backhandsprings for this man (and wind up in the hospital) if that's what he told me would help me get better. But he doesn't say anything and I continue to flounder. I brought up this issue with him and told him that I felt as though he wants me to jump through hooops and I've got asthma.

Thanks again everyone. It's really nice to be able to hash this stuff out with you all who have been around the block more than once, so to speak.

Liese

P.S. Finally gave in and made an appointment today for some antidepressants. Figured I might need them. Hope I can find soemthing that doesn't make me as sleepy as lexapro. Anybody find anything good that really helped?

Also, emailed T2 and asked for recommendations. not sure I felt terribly comfortable with him. But I do think he's the real deal.

Hey Liese,

I've been following along a bit (sorry...I'm not up to speed on everything), but I just have a couple comments regarding your most recent post.

From what I've learned about reality testing in classes is that it is "testing" a belief. For instance, in one class we watched a video of a CBT session (side note: can I tell you how many times I rolled my eyes and sighed? I shouldn't hate on it, because I know it has it's place. I'm just biased.)...anyway, the woman (client) had severe social anxiety and had been assigned homework to talk to 5 of her coworkers and learn something new about them. At the beginning of the session, she said that it hadn't been that bad. Flash forward about 20 minutes later, that "not so bad" experience had turned into her coworkers hating her for asking questions and her anxiety skyrocketing. The reality testing in this instance was instigated by her T, who brought up what she had said earlier about it not being that bad. It's a really good thing to do, and eventually the goal is that we will be able to reality test on our own without needing to have it pointed out.

I'm sorry for all that you are going through with your T. For what it's worth, I think you are handling it really well. I don't have much to offer, but maybe to add another experience as far as insurance matters go - Last year, I was insured by my school (it was a really good plan), but they dropped the plan and took on some really obscure insurance company. Our town almost completely consists of the university, so I think my T has a lot of students as clients and said that she tried to switch to the new insurance company so that we could still see her and be insured to pay for it. For completely unrelated reasons, it didn't happen (I ended up with a different plan anyway), but it struck me as very caring that she was both aware of this change and that she wanted to do what she could to remain available.

Anyway, I'm sorry if none of that helps at all. Just ignore it if it doesn't! Big hugs to you...glad you've been able to get some other opinions about this, too.

Kashley

HI Kashley,

Thanks for that explanation. That was helpful. So, basically are you saying that it's an interpretation of your emotional state as you go through life? How you yourself experience the world? What did you think about my example about your self-image and how you test that in the world? I guess I'm thinking specifically of my lovely dear-departed father who thought of himself as a song-writer and novelist. He spent my childhood writing these no-nonsense songs and novels and dreaming about being discovered and blaming my mother - not in a big way - for holding him back. If it was up to him, he'd have moved to a secluded place in New Hampshire and written songs and novels. The gods honest truth is the man never took a music class or writing class. He did have perfect pitch. He did actually tell me that he got a scholarship to Julliard because of his perfect pitch but he didn't go. His mother was a music teacher. So I imagine that he had some foundation of music as a child. But certainly not as an adult or on any kind of professional level. The same for the novels. He majored in sociology and then got a teaching degree but never taught. I used to beg him to go take a writing class, submit your songs to music companies, test yourself, see if you have any talent or promise. It used to drive me crazy and then I just plain ole gave up on him and decided if he wanted to live his life in some dreamworld, I didn't want to be there with him, as much as I loved that empty shell of a man.

I did ask my T which plans he liked and he named a few in particular. We have been having trouble with our current insurance carrier and I thought that maybe I would look into switching to another plan. I think he would get $80.00 combo from my copay and what the insurance company would pay from this other company so I really can't say that he's asking for anything unreasonable. So for me, in part, I'm seeing the issues as 1) is he giving different levels of care based on insurance companies, 2) his timing in bringing this all up since I've been trying to get rebalanced and feel safe in my life since October, 3) his comment last monday, in fact, that he's not terminating me today and that's what I have to remind myself, you know a here and now kind of guy, here and now therapy I guess. Just a little cruel to say to someone with abandonment issues????

BUT THERE IS SOME GOOD NEWS ON THE HORIZON:

Already heard from T#2 and he has suggested another consultation to figure out if we can work together and for what purpose. If not, he would give me names, and he would also be happy to discuss to me the ethics and professional questions AND ALSO HIS POLICY of having a different level of care based on what you can afford to pay or what your insurance can pay. Really really like the way he answers my questions so far. Getting the sense he is the real deal.

MORE GOOD NEWS:

My lovely 11 year old has been entangled with perhaps one of the meanest girls I know for the past 3 years. They've been in class together for the last 2 years and on a soccer team together. I actually wrote a letter to the school asking that they be separated this year. They haven't seen each other all year this year, which I was happy about but lately started to hang out again. Even my 16 year old keeps telling me, Mom you've got to pull E away from A. A was over here a week or two ago and left her mother's favorite mug at our house. Well, A called E last night and told her to tell us to drive the mug over to her house last night as her mother wants the mug back. I told E she could take the mug to school today and give it to A at school. E told A that. Then A started to post negative things about E on AIM. E all on her own decided she wasn't going on aim anymore, that there was so much girl drama. She came to me crying about the situation. I talked to her about how A operates and throws her anger around. How if they really wanted to mug back last night, they should come get it. It wasn't our responsibility. We didn't leave it at our hosue. And how if E didn't really care to be her friend, she wouldn't let it all bother her. She cried, we talked for a long time and we hugged and snuggled on the couch. I calmed her down. It was just one of those beautiful parenting moments when I felt like I could really be the attachment figure she deserves instead of perhaps the distracted or depressed attachment figure I actually was when she was born. Still hoping there's time to form this bond with her so she learns to seek out nice people who are nice to her.

(((((HUGS TO ALL)))))

Liese

Hey Liese,

I'm glad that helped a bit. If you take a look at it from a CBT perspective, then reality testing is when you test your *thoughts* (like, "They all hate me"). But I think that it can -and is- applied in all different schools of therapy. This is just my very humble (and flawed) opinion, but I think that reality testing is relevant when you have thoughts that are causing negative emotions. Well that's vague, isn't it!? I guess what I mean is that when a thought of, "they all hate me" is causing social anxiety, depression, whatever - that is when reality testing is relevant. I don't really know if it can work backwards where you have an emotion first and then have a thought about it. Actually, I take that back (sorry, thinking while I'm typing here). Because I think that was the case with your father, where he had emotions but thought that particular things/people were causing them when that wasn't really true. I think the flawed part of his reality was mainly in blaming your mother. He probably could have done all of those things he wanted to, but his belief system tricked him into thinking that he couldn't do it because of circumstances beyond his control. I'm sorry for what you had to deal with regarding your father. I understand a bit of how you feel...there was a similar situation in my family and it caused big turmoil for a long time.

It does seem cruel, what he said to you about not terminating "today". And I definitely agree that he absolutely should not vary the care he gives based on pay. That's so incredibly unethical, among other things. It's great that T #2 is willing to see you again and will talk about ethics...will you be seeing him soon?

Adorable story about your daughter...you sound like a really great mom. And she came to you about the situation, which means to me that she already knew you would be there for her. I know your bond with her will only get stronger.

Take care,

Kashley

Hi Liese... Just checking in to see if things are okay with you. Have you seen your T lately? I was wondering if you posed any questions to him about what has you concerned.

You also said you are seeing T2 again. I hope he is able to answer questions for you.

I meant to ask if you signed paperwork when you began with your current T. They are supposed to supply clients with "Informed Consent" paperwork which lays out their policies and procedures and how they get paid etc. You are supposed to sign it and then have a copy for yourself to refer to. My oldT never did this and it's very unethical not to give "Informed Consent" paperwork. If he has supplied this I would not have been so much in the dark about how he operates.

Another thing I noticed... you are working really hard researching topics that will help you to understand your issues and therapy and how it all works. While I think this is good, it helps us to gain insight and understanding and self-awareness, there is another side to it. I see where you commented you are learning more from reading than what you are learning in therapy. This was the same for me with oldT. I think we also need to get some of this knowledge in relationship with our Ts and they should also be knowledgeable about the things we are reading so we can discuss things like attachment, trauma, dissociation, abuse etc. And I'm not saying that they should be experts in everything but they need a working knowledge of what the patient is struggling with and I would also hope they would have enough initiative and curiosity to do their own homework to help a client if they are not fully informed about a certain issue. My oldT never did that either.

Just something else to think about... and maybe talk about with your T. Personally, I would give him the article on Dependence by Kathy Steele (I have read this awhile ago) and ask him to read it because you want to discuss it's contents at your next session. That would be a good way to find out if he is willing to do this kind of work or not. You would find out whether or not he is intersted in stepping up to the plate in order to help you.

Just some thoughts. Let me know how you are doing. When you are too quiet I get worried.

Hug
TN

HI Kashley and TN,

I am not as strong as I thought I was. All this stuff really hurts. I did see my T on Monday. He was his wonderful self. He told me that he triages his float list. The emergencies get the first open slots. Then people like me who need to come in or who have had a difficult session get the next open slots. And, then, maybe people who have just missed an appointment or whatever are on the third tier. He said it would be unethical to pick on the basis of who pays what or what the insurance company pays. I asked him to explain his secretary's comments and he said he couldn't. That maybe it had something to do with my relationship with her. She and I did have a conflict about a year ago over the float list. I was so tired of my son being on the float list and trying to work and fit in appointments at the last minute and drive 4 kids to their activities. Everytime I would ask her if something was available for him, she would say, "he's a very busy man". Finally, about a year ago, I lost it and said, well, I'm a lawyer, and I have four kids and my H and I have a business together. I don't know if now she just feels guilty because she typecast me as being a frumpy housewife? That could be the only possible explanation. She doesn't make the busy man comments to me anymore, which personally I found very offensive, regardless of who I am or what my station is in life.

(Just a little side story. I used to be a girlscout leader for my 16 year old's girl scout troop. One of the moms, a "very busy" writer and self-important person, never volunteered for anything. Once I asked her to do something and her reply was, can you ask someone who doesn't work? I replied to her that I don't like to determine the value of people's time. If she just wanted to say no, that's all she had to say. OHHH, she really pissed me off.)

So, T told me that I have to get past all this stuff if we are going to do what we have to do. That if I leave him, I will repeat the same pattern with another therapist. That he's devoted to all his clients and the relationships he builds with them. That he has the skills and ability to help me and has helped people like me in the past with success. That I don't have anything to worry about concerning the insurance issue because IF he drops my plan, he will keep me on at $65.00. The week before I had really pumped him about what continuing ed classes he's taken lately and if he read A general theory of love. He answered all my questions patiently. Didn't get defensive. This week he told me he looked for aTOL but they don't have it on disk. He said that the book looked really interesting and that he wanted to read it.

I left the session feeling like I wanted to stay with him. I had already emailed T2, who emails me promptly so I don't know when that guy is doing therapy. (But he doesn't return phone calls promptly. I guess emailing is his preferred mode of contact.) Prior to the session with currrent T, I had asked T2 if he would consult with me about working together. And, so after my appointment I told T2 that I would still like to consult with him but that I would really like to still work with current T but wanted to make sure I wasn't hurting myself, that maybe there is something current T doesn't understand about me and inadvertantly hurts me. I sent him an email about all my concerns and told him that if it would help him evaluate whether or not I am in good hands, I would give him the name of the T I am working with. He said that would be helpful so I gave him the name. We set up an appointment for this Saturday.

I guess after reading that article about our emotional personalities and our normal personality, I've been thinking a lot about all of my different emotional reactions and realized that one of my EP's is needy but that another EP or maybe my ANP is independent, proud and protective of me. The needy one is the one who is hurt in all this as she has come to rely a great deal on T. She understands that he might not be the right T for me but sorting through the process is painful nonetheless. (It makes it easier for me to accept "her" feelings if I make her another person and not part of myself. I guess it's hard for me to accept "my" neediness. More therapy!)

When I saw T2 for the consult on sunday, he seemed to have 2 concerns: the money talk, etc. and wondering about his secretary's comments, if this guy is in fact giving different levels of care, etc. and his second concern seemed to be his suspicion that current T might be using our relationship as a means to an end??? to get me angry? He didn't really say what he was using the relationship for. He kind of stopped himself. But I did tell him about the trauma and my FOO and what he told me was that "he needs to make the relationship safe for you."

I think in that trauma article I posted it said that until you can negotiate past a conflict in therapy, you won't make any progress.

T2 told me it was good that I was talking things out with current T. In my email to T2, I told him about the conflict with current T's secretary and wondered if for him that would explain all her comments. She also has been making comments whenever she's been giving me this Thursday at 2:15 slot. She gave it to me at least 3 times and everytime made an excuse as to why it was open, some conflicting with others. And she doesn't make any excuses at all for other time slots.

I told current T, if he has that slot open but needs to keep it for emergencies, that's fine with me, but why does she have to make an excuse whenever she gives me that slot? It makes me feel like she's hiding something or again, feels guilty about something. Current T does seem a little frustrated that my relationship with her is interfering with my relationship with him, although he did validate that she should not be making excuses up as to why she's giving me that slot. I told him that I'm just telling him what she says to me and how things appear. I'm not making this stuff up and I'm not making her say these things to me. She just is.

So, it's been a difficult week. A lot to sort through. I am hoping that if I decide to stay with current T that you guys won't hate me forever after all I put you through with my latest crisis. Welcome to my internal world. Lots of fun, isn't it? Run, stay, run, stay, run, stay. Ohhhh, my head is spinning. I won't make up my mind until after I see T2 on Saturday. I do get the sense he is the real deal. Not sure I clicked with him but that's okay. It's just a consult. And, it's nice to know he's there in case I need to consult with him again in the future or get recommendations.

Jones had made a comment that she noticed that I tend to read into to things with T. One part of the problem for me has the lack of structure in the therapy room. I think I must feel really out of control and so concoct these fanatasies about what we are working on. Maybe that is why I feel so disconnected from him sometimes because if in fact we are not working on the same thing and I'm doing what I always do, which is working parallel to him, that would kind of make sense. Maybe that would help me feel safer with him ... is to have more structure in the therapy room. Do you guys structure your sessions? If so, how do you structure your sessions? Maybe I will put T on probation. Give him another chance for a month and see how things go. I didn't tell him that I've been doing all these consults. I told him that I felt like I was in this warped loop with him and couldn't get out and he couldn't get me out. He asked me how I got out and I said, I don't know. Didn't want to tell him that you guys were such an amazing support and that the two psychologists I consulted with validated my perceptions.

Have been feeling bad that I haven't been able to support everyone else but it has been a difficult week. Looking forward to the day when I can function like a "normal" human being!!

HUGS to everyone. I know a lot of you are struggling right now and I'm sending out my love and support. wish I could be of more help.