Hi Kmay:

lieses' thread is still open and people are more than welcomed to post in it. I was suggesting that the tones of post be slightly different. :-) but please don't feel you can't post there. Also I that you are pulling from things and discussing them positively and seeing how they apply and fit. Cool! :-)

CTL

Yes Kmay, that was one question that intrigued me but on a much simpler level (for me that is). The question someone asks everyday is "how are you?", and I think that it has totally lost its value. Nobody hears you if you start to say "well not too good actually", they automatically think you have said "I am fine", "how are you". For me there are a few people whom I say to them "do you really want to know", they just laugh and walk on, if I turn to them and ask them the same question I find myself listening to them go on about how the cat was sick, little lucy had a temperature etc etc,- I don't laugh and walk away I listen with genuine intent and am interested, what makes people not really interested in what I have to say, do I have something written across my forehead!!

((((KMAY))))

I don't even know what to say. The whole experience sounded incredibly scary and re-traumatizing, as you said. It's hard to say if she was just curious or if she thought it might help. I'm sorry if I put any paranoid thoughts in anyone's head by throwing out those questions. I didn't mean to do that. What your T did is a far cry from what CG did because you have an established relationship with your T and it does sound like she cares about you.

I've doubted my T's ability to deal with my trauma too because he's not a trauma T - he was just very confident. It's kind of a scary place to be in, doubting their motivation for trying to help us with something that perhaps they don't have the expertise to help us with.

On the other hand, some trauma T's genuinely believe in abreactive work - while others don't. So, maybe it's not so much that she was just a curiosity seeker who didn't know what she was doing but that she thought it would be helpful. The good thing is she clearly saw how much it affected you and knows now that it is an area that you can't go back to.

What I was talking about is a little different. Oh, this is probably going to sound like one of those silly scars from childhood but I had this "best friend" that I'd known since birth. My mother idealized her mother. I think it comes down to that she just didn't like me but was forced to play with me because our parents and other siblings were friends.

So, I grew up not knowing that friends should not be mean to me and she grew up knowing that she was mean to me but didn't understand why. Neither of our mothers tried to help us work throught the friendship.

All I wanted was for her to love me and care about me. One day as we were walking to the bus stop, I was moping because my uncle had just died. Well, I wasn't moping because he died. I was moping because I wanted her to ask me what was wrong, so that I could tell her that my uncle had died and this would be the time that she would care about me. She did ask me what was wrong but her response was, "SO!" and she rolled her eyes and stomped away. For a long time, I felt I was so pathetic but the truth is, she was just mean.

BTW, when I ran into her in the neighborhood when we were older, she said two things to me, "I was really mean to you when we were little." and "My mother said I was so mean to you when we were little that I used to make you cry all the time and she was really worried about me."

So there were two things going on. My willingness to share my emotions with someone because I wanted them to love me. And the fact that she really didn't even like me and wasn't trust worthy.

And that, for me, was the connection I saw with CG, that everyone was being so welcoming and opening up to her and she hadn't earned anyone's trust and in fact, was saying something really offensive but couched as curiosity, right? "I don't understand why you all can't be normal. Can you explain it to me?"

Not to go off on that tangent again but I hope I eased your mind about your therapist because there is a distinct difference there and I do think your therapist cares about you.

I have had some similar childhood experiences. To this day, I just tell myself that "kids can be mean and nasty little creatures" and am grateful that I survived grade school and middle school.

Still, many adults seem to be extremely uncomfortable with any kind of pain, no matter how mild, another person is experiencing. They squirm, deflect, hug it away, tell you to smile, ignore, sometimes even get aggressive. I am speculating that the "curious ones" are secretly or not so secretly wanting to know more so that they can compare themselves with another so as to feel better about their own lives.. as in "better them than me".. this would explain why reality shows are so popular, perhaps?

Anyway, I had some similar experiences, and although I share anonymously, I don't like to share much with people in general, and I get depressed as a result, which is one reason I sought therapy.

I have learned that it is better to keep to myself, and that thread was yet another lesson for me.

edit to add: The original CG thread.

(((Kmay))) I know what it feels like to be in that state of trauma in your T's office. The thing is I do think it was a good thing that she gave you that extended session, because I do think she cares, but to make you re-live things again and again is not helpful. So I think it was good for her to understand you more (not that she didn't understand you, but what I mean is to get the really hurtful parts out in the open), but after that she probably needed you to start feeling safe in her office again? Just a thought? From my own personal experience I don't think it is good to constantly revisit those traumatic feelings in the "present". You want to be able to work through the problem and I'm not so sure how possible that is when you are "in" the problem. Does that make sense? Of course it is only my unqualified opinion.

(((Scars)))

quote:

For me there are a few people whom I say to them "do you really want to know", they just laugh and walk on, if I turn to them and ask them the same question I find myself listening to them go on about how the cat was sick, little lucy had a temperature etc etc,- I don't laugh and walk away I listen with genuine intent and am interested, what makes people not really interested in what I have to say, do I have something written across my forehead!!

Scars, I find myself asking those same questions about people, but don't look at that in the negative light. The reason why you listen is because you KNOW how important it is to be heard. You UNDERSTAND that need. You know when people say "everything happens for a reason" and you just want to shoot them sometimes, well think of it like this....if you hadn't have had the life you had, you would never have had the understanding and compassion that you do. You have a knowledge that they do not even know exists. I am sure that those types of people have a knowledge that we are not aware of. The truth is our experiences in life provide us with knowledge and understanding, and I for one, as much as I would never wish my experiences on another person, I would also never wish them away, because more and more I am beginning to cherish the knowledge that ALL of my experiences have provided me with.

(((No.9))) (((Liese))) Children are ignorant. That is their excuse. I am sure we all did things that would have hurt others or where we would have been completely insensitive in our childhood years. I remember when I was 9yrs old my best friends father killed himself. Well I remember not knowing what to say, so I said nothing and over the coming months I distanced myself from her, until eventually we were friendly, but never as close as what we were. When my own father died in my teenage years I reflected on what I had done and felt incredibly guilty, but I didn't feel I could say anything. Anyway about a year ago (we are talking decades later) I sent my old friend a mail explaining myself and apologising. We made contact and the two of us spoke and I feel a lot better. The point is I was to immature and naive to know any better, but that didn't mean that my actions or lack thereof weren't hurtful. My point in that?....We need to forgive ignorance.

B2W

Bingo. Compassion is something that requires life experience to acquire. It also takes maturity to not pass along pain to someone else. I'm sure I did that as a kid and I regret it. But knowing what we do now....

..to be completed

Number 9, I'm sorry you have experienced what I have. I'm envious of other women who have had lifelong good relationships with sisters or their mom. One of those other things I'll have to grieve, I guess.

B2W, I was describing more of a dynamic rather than saying she was mean and I never was. I know I've been mean. I know when I go for the jugular. The dynamic was one, though, that shaped me emotionally. I would go out on a limb emotionally in order to get someone's love. It was pretty whacky. For what it's worth, though, she was mean by her own admission and her mothers. My Dad told me that I was too sensitive and I had to learn to get along with people. Some people are more aggressive than others. I was probably more passive and had higher needs for approval. Or maybe we were just on different wave lengths and that's okay too. The problem was we shouldn't have spent so much time together and the adults didn't help either one of us. I really think that she felt bad as an adult that she was mean to me and didn't quite understand why.

She is an artist now who teaches at a college. I happened to look her up one day and found the Rate My Professor website. There were a couple of positive responses but most were negative, ranging from criticizing her for being disorganized to suggesting she is bi-polar. Sometimes it really is the other person.

I reacted to that thread because I felt there might have been a similar dynamic going on there.

Number9

I agree with what you say above but is it right to assume that by ones mid twenties one has sufficient life experience and maturity to show the appropriate levels of compassion and not to inadvertantly pass pain onto others? I'm wondering if that might not always be the case.

I'm in my mid twenties. What would you all think of me if I carried on like that? Not much I don't reckon.

Personally, i would do my utmost to respect you for who you are and what you are, regardless.

(((Liese)))

quote:

I was describing more of a dynamic rather than saying she was mean and I never was. I know I've been mean.

I hope you didn't misread what I wrote? I wasn't referring to you as such but rather the general experiences of being young and ignorant, or for that matter just ignorant regardless of age, and how through that ignorance a person can hurt another person. Of course you are right character does come into it, as is in the case of your "friend" that you wrote about, and character as we all know is comprised of many elements, but I do think experience is probably one of the most important of those elements. No two peoples experiences are ever completely alike, even if they were to go through or witness the very same thing. I equate it to taking a photograph. If you gave 10 people cameras and allowed them to each take just one photo along the same path, I doubt very much the same photo would be repeated.

BTW I am no longer commenting on anything CG wrote specifically because I hold no value to those particular comments, so for me I am only commenting on what members are writing and of course writing from my own perspective, which I never assume to be the only perspective or even the right perspective. So although this is a continuation from the other thread I am personally treating it as a separate thread.

My last point in response to (((HIC))) and (((AV)))...Age is not always relative to maturity or life experience. In most cases we generalise with the assumption that by a certain age a person has had more experience and therefore understands more about life, however I have met very ignorant people in their later years most of whom have had superficial experiences within their lives, and many compassionate and wise young people. I think there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom. I don't even necessarily think it is their fault.

B2W

Thanks Liese!!

Avoidant: I have known people in their mid-twenties with the emotional maturity of a 10 year old.

But..one of my favorite people, and good friend, is in his mid-twenties and is living in Japan right now. He blows me away with his insights and is wise beyond his years.

My parents, looking back, did not have much emotional maturity as we were growing up. I think I am ahead of where they were at my age, and my mother has grown quite a bit, but unfortunately learned her hard lessons via illness and the loss of her spouse.

Liese: It sounds like I blame a lot these days, but it has taken me so long to forgive myself, and stop blaming myself for "my part" which could have contributed to how some others choose to behave. So I choose my friends and allies wisely (for whatever that's worth, how can one ever really know?) And yes, sometimes it IS about them, not us. I felt some relief when I read what you wrote about your childhood friend!!! I don't have to be responsible for everyone!! Sometimes I do everything I can to make something work, and it becomes an exhausting and losing endeavor.

Only by NOT blaming myself am I able to forgive, if that makes sense. Now I think I have more energy for the things that count.

Edit to add: I can also identify those times when I DID contribute to disharmony in certain relationships, but ironically, I'm still in touch with those people.. we were honest with each other. apologized, and moved on, in each case the mutual admission of each party's shortcomings was actually productive. But some people are in such deep denial that they are incapable of apologizing. I wish they carried actual signs that indicated as such. (Or I really am dense sometimes)

I see a lot of people here with some deep life experience and emotional maturity.

quote:

Personally, i would do my utmost to respect you for who you are and what you are, regardless.

Well. . . I distrust CG and respect her enough to say so.

AV, I hope you didn't think I was being mean in my comments on the other thread. I fully believe she was a troll and was angry and impatient at the way she had hurt members here. I have a protective streak for those I care about. But if I thought she was doing anything but trolling I would have been less blunt. Anyway, I kinda don't want to talk about this more here because I think that thread has gotten enough air space , but if you'd like to pm about any concerns I'm game.

B2W, number9, I think you are right in your reflections on age and maturity.

For the record, H informed me I'm in my late twenties not my mid twenties, lol. I'm 27. How age sneaks up on us.

Liese,

I have to admit that it struck me when you wrote that your father said you were "too sensitive" and needed to learn how to get along with people. My father used to say this all the time, and this comment strikes me as one of the biggest cop-outs of all time. I know how much I put up with when I was young. A LOT. TOO much, in fact.

Didn't you already do everything you could to get along with your friend? How much is too much? Were we all taught this when we were growing up, before people began to realize the impact of bullying, and the value of walking away from "toxic" people?

HIC: Oh, boy, me too.. I have a strong sense of justice and often stand up for people I like, and sometimes others I see that are being treated badly.

hey btw,

quote:

I hope you didn't misread what I wrote? I wasn't referring to you as such but rather the general experiences of being young and ignorant

Thanks for explaining what you meant. In all truth, I can see that her parents didn't do her a favor either - forcing her more or less to stay in a relationship with me - one that she didn't want to be in. She was just a child too and now probably blames herself for being mean to me when she didn't understand why.

What happened to me was that it took me a long time to pick up on veiled or not so veiled hostility because it's what I got from her and from my mother as well - who has difficultly being direct about her anger. All of this reminded me of that dynamic.

Number 9,

quote:

Didn't you already do everything you could to get along with your friend? How much is too much? Were we all taught this when we were growing up, before people began to realize the impact of bullying, and the value of walking away from "toxic" people?

I remember turning myself inside out for her. I remember talking to my Dad about how mean she was. He told me it was me, that I was always creating issues.

So what happened? Like him, I became the biggest doormat ever. Doormats teach their children to be doormats. Maybe you and I were both unlucky to get doormats as parents.

Truth was my Dad had had a nervous breakdown and really couldn't handle a lot of stress. Did I know that then? No. I bought into what he sold.

Good news is no more! Getting stronger all the time.

AV, I love that you have so much empathy for people. Did you feel bad for Princess Kate when they photographed her topless? I love what the Irish newspaper said, "She's not OUR future Queen." LOL! Why that came up, I have no idea. Just love a good story when I hear one, I guess, even if it's irrelevant.

(((HIC)))

Oh boy, HICC, sounds like you are in denial. You are getting up there my friend. LOl! You know I'm just kidding. I'm nearly 49.

Sympathy for princess Kate, Liese? Yes, of course. Although she did know what she was getting into by marrying into that family

Oh, and sympathy for her little sister Pippa, too. Fancy having to come to terms with the fact that your big sister might become queen of Great Britain and the Commonwealth. How do you live up to that?

Friends! I have been sooooo sick. Boo! Just now catching up on this whole thread

CTL - Thank you and no worries. I just wasn't sure so I started a new one just in case

Liese - No paranoid thoughts at all It's actually something that has been on my mind since it happened. And although I know it's not exactly the same type of thing that you were talking about, I felt like it sort of related. I know for sure without a doubt that my T cared about me. I think though, in just that one instance, that she was very curious about these traumas that I had never shared with her in 10 years of our relationship. I know for sure her intention wasn't to hurt me, but I am just dissapointed I think b/c I feel she knew she wasn't trained in trauma processing and that harmed me. Truth is, I don't think that anyone has cared for me like she has so I don't mind either way. It just struck me when you mentioned about opening yourself up b/c people are just "curious". I feel the same way you do about CG.
So....in relating more closely to what you were talking about, yes. I have done that too. I have opened myself up to someone thinking they genuinely cared only to have them get all their curiousity filled and then turn and leave. Also, leaving me feeling like all my fears about what a "freak" I am were validated at that moment. Sucks poop.

Scars - That is so funny, what you posted. Just last week I was describing the exact same thing to my Hubby. I was in the store waiting in line to pay. The cashier asks everyone (like always) "Hi how are you" and everyone says "fine, how are you" like normal. I was paying particularly close attention b/c the cashier sounded like she really could give two shits "how anyone was feeling". She sounded completely miserable and I was thinking, I wonder what is wrong with her? Then she asks the woman in front of me how she is doing and this woman says "Fine. Im fine."....almost like she was trying to convince herself. And I mean she seriously sounded like she was on the edge. I was thinking holy cow....I wonder what this conversation would sound like if both of these women actually started talking about how they were REALLY doing. Instead of the usual "Fine, how are you" answer. I wanted to comfort both of them. I wanted to know why they were so sad. But I was thinking in my mind that neither of them probably really care what is wrong with the other one, nor how I am "really doing". It just made me feel more alone.

B2W - Yes, I know she cares. And I know she was just trying to be helpful. Seems alot of her good intentioned stuff ended up hurting me