Hi Russ,
Human beings come with a basic set of longings, for connection, for love, for a sense of significance (that we matter to the people around us), of being cared for and having our needs met. Those do NOT go away because they're not fulfilled, they just go underground.

And why would they go underground you ask? Because everytime we tried to get them fulfilled when we were young it went BADLY. We eneded up hurt, or scared, or punished, or even worse things. Until our limbic system learned on a very deep level that to try and get our needs fulfilled, to move towards someone, was a good way to get hurt and therefore needed to be avoided at any cost. And so we buried our needs.

But as I mentioned previously, they do NOT go away. They keep clamoring and it gets harder and harder to hold them down. So finally, we look at them and say, ok, ok, I start paying attention to you. But when we move to meet those needs, guess what we're doing? We doing things that register as VERY DANGEROUS to us. And our mind will do whatever it needs to in an attempt to keep us safe. Including making us feel anxious anytime we start to express our feelings so we can be heard, or reach out to someone in connection.

The very things you long for invoke in you a deep sense of danger. That if you attempt to go towards what you need, you will be severely hurt. At one time this was actually a reasonable assumption and one that allowed you to survive. Which is the whole point. So what if you're not happy, you're still here to talk about it. But now those behaviors are maladaptive because you're no longer in that situation and they don't accurately reflect reality. And continuing to believe them severely limits the choices that you can even see, let alone make, because you're trying at all costs to avoid that danger. But you're right brain has NO time sense, it doesn't realize that the danger has passed.

So you have to undergo a painful, scary process. Which is to stay with how you're feeling (which is scary because there was a time you didn't have the capacity or resources to handle those feelings). You have to walk into the midst of the fear so you can see just what it is that you unconsciously believe so that you can recognize the lies and have someone recognize them with you and tell you there not true. You need to move towards having your needs met, through the terror, over and over until you experience something different enough times that the danger messages will fade to a dim whisper that you can more easily and more quickly overcome (I don't think they ever totally go away.)

I know its completely confusing and can be overhwelming, but its in the midst of this struggle that our understanding is born. From the other side it looks so simple and like a such a small shift, but it is incredibly hard work to get there. I told my T this morning that I had gone on a journey of 10,000 miles to move half an inch. But there was no other way to get there. But I will tell you, promise you, that its worth it.

AG

Hey Russ! How are you doing? Haven't seen you around much the past few days.

quote:

Can anyone with more knowledge of the technical side of this stuff offer some insight into this?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking here- what do you mean by technical side? Are you looking for examples? Something to make the theory more concrete? Or are you wanting to know how the process plays out/how long it takes to change the automatic response?

I'd really like to offer you any help I can (if I can), but I want to make sure I understand what you are asking. If you could help me determine what you mean, I'd be glad to see if I have anything to offer.

-CT

Hi AG,

Thanks so much for your explanation. You're right, it all went very badly, and the needs got buried. Very buried.

And I agree about the mind having no sense of time. It's a timeless place. All that stuff might as well have happened 5 minutes ago.


Hi CT,

Yes, I guess what I'm curious about is how this whole "making the unconscious conscious" actually results in people getting better. Like, why does it work? AG explained it very well in saying:

quote:

You need to move towards having your needs met, through the terror, over and over until you experience something different enough times that the danger messages will fade to a dim whisper that you can more easily and more quickly overcome...

It basically sounds like a kind of re-conditioning through a kind of education. I start to see and even feel the old buried feelings, but when this happens, the old danger signal still gets tripped and the old emergency response happens.

When I asked my T why until last year I was more or less OK and now I feel like I have nothing to protect me from anything. He said, "because the old configuration that allowed you to not feel those feelings and feel more or less OK has been suspended, but it wasn't working very well anyway."

And of course I would love to know how long it takes to change the automatic response (or do I?), but I know that's impossible to know. Everyone is different. It's just that my T never talks about the nuts and bolts of how the mind works (i.e. the Self, the ego, etc) as it relates to me because he thinks it's just a distraction. But, as technical person, I like to know about how this stuff actually works.

Here's my problem: as I say I am a technical person. If you present me with a problem, I will solve it in a very linear way; here's the cause, here's the effect, here's the problem, here's the solution. So, I am looking at my emotional issues the same way, but the linear model SO doesn't work, and it confuses me. And of course a large part of me is saying, "ok, just tell me what I have to do to make the pain stop and I'll do it," and, ironically, this attitude tends to skip over the cause, the effect and the solution.

Thanks so much.
Russ

Hi Russ,

I think AG mentioned this book before: A General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis, Fari Amini, and Richard LannonA General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis, Fari Amini, and Richard Lannon. It's such an eye opener on how the brain, emotions, thoughts and reality hang together! Why we act the way we do without being conscious of it and why we have to actually go through our fears again and again - but with a t there to teach us a different view bit by bit. Rather than just reading about it - an approach I'd greatly prefer

SB

SB,

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll certainly check it out.

Edit: actually, I did start to read "A General Theory of Love" but was a bit turned off by the Freud bashing. Not that I'm a Freud devotee, but I thought that the authors dismissed his ideas too easily right off the bat. I'll give it another look, though.

Best,
Russ

Russ,

there are a few things in there that `i found a bit dodgy. I really, REALLY don't like the use of 'he' for pretty much everything apart from 'mother'. Even kids are male! I mean this is the 21st century... But, for me the content was worth persisting.

SB

Russ,

It can be done. I know from experience.

I have pretty much hated myself for my whole life. When I had some type of emotion, whatever it was, my next response would be self-hatred. Through work with my therapist, it's not necessarily the first response anymore, and when it is, I can often get a handle on it pretty quickly. It's amazing how what I thought was part of who I was I now see as something separate from me, a defense mechanism. It sounds like it's a similar thing to what you have happening.

One of the first things my therapist and I did was called parts therapy. She had me think of all of the different parts of me, the different voices in my head that play a role in my thoughts and behaviors. This was one of the first things that I did in therapy with her, but it's an ongoing thing, as I recognize voices that I didn't notice before, and as new voices emerge. A very strong voice in the beginning was self-hatred. Doing this activity caused me to become aware of what is going on inside of me.

She also taught me coping strategies. When I feel self-hatred, I can postpone it. If I tell myself, I don't have to feel self-hatred right now, I can feel it in 5 minutes. It will often subside within that period of time. Another strategy was to allow myself to feel it. If I just HAD to feel it, I would say to myself, "It's okay. I accept that you feel self-hatred. You can hate yourself for 5 minutes, then you're going to do something different." Somehow through allowing myself to feel it, it moved through quickly. Another strategy was to pay attention to my body (apparently, Shrinklady uses this type of therapy a lot). What was my body telling me? My face felt hot, my fists felt like clenching, etc. Then, to tell my body, "I hear you trying to tell me something. What are you wanting me to hear?" Then, the self-hatred would usually leave and it would be replaced by sadness. All of these activities encourage awareness of what's going on inside of me.

Another thing that she did was that she continually told me, "The self-hatred is not you. It's a defense mechanism that you formed when you were little and didn't know how else to deal with these feelings. It's not who you are." This allowed me to learn to separate myself from it, which, again, brought about further awareness.

Something that's been very helpful is making a list of things that I can do, that I enjoy doing and that feel right to me, when I start to feel bad.

The most important thing that she did was to continue to love and accept me when I had feelings of self-hatred. Sometimes I still say things like, "I'd just rather be dead." She'll rub my back and say, "Just for the record, I'm glad your not." When I go into a self-hatred funk, she'll say, "It seems like you need to hate yourself right now. If that's what you need, that's okay. If you want to, you can try to postpone it. You can turn right instead of left. You know what it's like to turn left. You've been down that road. You can try the other way this time." I might choose to keep hating myself. She is just as supportive as she would have been if I had stopped hating myself. It makes me feel like maybe I'm not some big lame loser. Maybe there's a part of me that's still lovable.

By the way, I still struggle with self-hatred, but it doesn't rule every aspect of my life like it used to. My subconscious responses are certainly changing.

So, you wanted technical answers, and I gave you examples. I don't know how to answer this question technically, but I hope my examples help. I don't think there's one answer. I think that there's a combination of answers. And the combination that works for one person might not work for another. I think the bottom line is learning about yourself and becoming aware of yourself.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I think it is: You have to let go and trust or it will never happen. Trust your therapist. Trust the process. Trust yourself.

(By the way, I've missed seeing you around the past few days.)
catgirl

Hi Catgirl,

I was in the process of responding to you when the Great Psychcafe Crash of '09 hit.

Thanks so much for talking about your experiences. It's very helpful to hear other peoples' stories and strategies and coping skills.

I haven't been posting a lot lately because I'm just struggling so much and it's hard to concentrate. It seems like the more that buried emotions try to come to the surface (often in my dreams), the more intense the fear and anxiety become, and it's been hellish lately.

Last night was a good example. I had a dream that I was looking into a mirror and my face changed to my face that I recently saw of myself from when I was about 10 or 11. The surface content of these dreams aren't really frightening or grotesque, but there's something about them that just causes these horrible bouts of fear.

Anyway, I so appreciate your examples. They're really helpful, and it's encouraging to read. I agree that I have to let go and trust, but boy it's hard when the pain just seems relentless. It looks like I'll be giving the ADs another try.

Best,
Russ

Hi Russ.. I don't think we have ever directly spoken before but I read you posts with great interest. I, too, have Generalized Anxiety Disorder as my main dx with underlying depression. The depression is usually very mild and does not really effect my day to day functioning. But boy when the bad anxiety hits it's really crippling. I have been in therapy for a bit over a year now and for awhile my anxiety was so much better but lately I've had a few really bad days. Two weeks ago I had a day where I was curled up on the couch with a blanket unable to stop shaking and thinking I was about to die. It was horrible. And to top it off I had a disagreement with my T and was angry with him so I would not allow myself to contact him. I guess it was my way of punishing myself... which I am very good at, BTW. I knew I needed him so badly but felt I didn't even deserve the luxury of reaching out for him via email or phone.

And what was our disagreement about? Taking AD meds. I refuse to take them and whenever he suggests them I freak out and get really very angry with him. I know I have an issue with meds in general and the thought of taking anything triggers my anxiety. As my T says... I'm in a huge bind. I'm anxious and he believes meds would help me but I'm med phobic and they trigger my anxieties. And so I refuse. I even wrote a note to my file saying he has discussed meds w/me but that I refuse/am not interested in taking them. I told him that now he is ethically covered should this ever come up.

So I understand your reluctance to start AD meds completely. Although when I had that really bad day a few weeks ago I would have really considered taking a xanax or something to calm me. It was pretty bad. I told my T about not calling him for help and he was upset that I should deny myself the help I needed. We seemed to have patched things up and things are okay now between us.

Sorry for diverting your thread. As far as the technical aspect of therapy... all I can offer is to tell you that therapy is not a linear process. It wanders all around and doubles back and goes diagonal. As for the rest... I completely agree with AG.

TN

Russ,

Sorry to hear that things are so rough for you right now.

There have been numerous times in my theraputic process that I was ready to quit. The deep emotions and memories that constantly bombard me sometimes are so painful, that I just want to put an end to it and go back to my old ways and my old defenses. Just when I'm about to quit, I always turn the corner.

This process of discovery that we are doing in therapy is more difficult than many things that we do in life. But, I think it's worth it. It's so hard to over and over again push through the pain, but on the other side of it is where the reward lies.


TN,

I just want to share my experience. My T says that I have generalized anxiety and depression. I have struggled and struggled with the roller coaster of intense anxiety swinging back to depression. I've been seeing her for 2 years. When I first started seeing her, I asked her what she thought of anti-depressants for me, she suggested that we do some work to see if we can figure out what's going on with me. After my mom died 10 months ago, I asked what she thought of ADs. She suggested holding off so that I could feel the grief and not just cover up the symptoms. I spent the next 8 months or so on a major roller coaster, cycling through depression and anxiety, that often was somewhat debilitating. I asked her recently what she thought of ADs. She said that she thought it was a good idea, and she was going to bring up the subject soon if I didn't.

I've always been sort of anti-drugs. I just feel like you can't really trust the ADA. You never know if something you're taking now will cause cancer or something in 20 years. So, I was a little leery of starting them. But, with the roller coaster going on, I had to try something.

I started taking 5 mms of Lexapro each day. This is a really small amount. It has made an amazing difference. The anxiety was affected within 2 days, though for most people it takes a couple of weeks. (I'm a REAL lightweight.) The depression was affected within 2 weeks, though this usually takes 4-8 weeks to work.

Anyway, I feel NORMAL now. Not on top of the world, and not in a bottomless pit, but normal. I feel like I can manage life. My feet are beginning to feel like they're becoming planted into the ground, not trying to run around to balance me all of the time.

The hope is that I will only take the meds for 6 months to a year. During this time, I'm supposed to focus on getting more coping skills so that when I get off of them, I'll be functioning better, and hopefully won't be on a roller coaster. If this doesn't work, I'll reevaluate.

So, I hear your concern about meds. But, sometimes they have their place.

What scares you about them? Just curious.

My friend recently started an enzyme regimen prescribed by a non-traditional doctor. She is experiencing similar results as I am through taking enzymes. If I can't find a balance after I get off of the meds in 6-12 months, I'll try enzymes.

Anyway, do what you need to do for yourself. I just wanted to share my experience.

catgirl

TN and Catgirl,

I totally get "the bind" that you're in, TN. I'm in the same place. Both myself and my T would prefer to not get into the AD crapshoot because there's the risk that we'll "lose the trail" to the root causes of my problems if the symptoms go away, and that's if the stuff works, which so far for me, they have not. But, I can't go on living each day in fear and the resulting depression.

TN, I understand your feeling like you're going to die. It's this smothering, all-consuming feeling of dread and fear, right? It's the most hideous thing on Earth, and after month after month of it, of course it becomes very depressing.

And I feel exactly like you do, in terms of getting really angry about the idea of ADs, but I need something to clear the symptoms out of the way so I can function on a daily basis.

As for ADs, I've tried low doses of Lexapro and Zoloft and they both made my symptoms worse, so I guess the SNRIs are my next option. The whole idea makes my skin crawl.

One thing I've been thinking about lately is the connection between suppressed feelings of abandonment and the symptoms. I've been feeling especially awful since the beginning of March. At this time, my parents left for their two month vacation, my T went away for a week and my best friend also went away. At the time, of course, I didn't feel abandoned, but I'm wondering if that's my repression at work, but the feelings are down there, trying to get out, and my mind is using the symptoms as a response to them. There's no question that I was emotionally abandoned by my parents, especially my father, but I never felt it. So if there's any truth to the idea that feelings are timeless, it makes sense that suppressed feelings of abandonment today are reaching back to childhood, creating a mighty big pool of feelings somewhere. I'd like to know what you guys think.

Thanks for replies, TN and Catgirl. Here's to all of us here feeling much better this time next year if not sooner.

Russ

Hi Russ and Catgirl....some background on my anti-med feelings. And not just ADs all meds except for the very basic antibiotics, motrin etc which I do use.

Both my parents are deceased now. My mom, when she was starting to become ill was given Lexapro and she had some really nasty side effects both on the med and when she had to get off of the med. So when my T suggested Lexapro I got really angry with him. The other part of the story is... my Dad was always also anti-med for anything. He would suffer with arthritis and not take his Celebrex because it had too many side effects. Long story short... he fell and broke his leg badly and had to have surgery. Because he was elderly (but otherwise in very good health) he had some heart arythmia after surgery and so was given a drug called Amiodarone. It killed him. He... out of the blue... developed a lung disease (he never smoked). He lived 6 months after taking the drug with oxygen and in complete disability. We later found out that this drug should not be given to older adults and ONLY as a last resort drug when nothing else works. The doctors had never tried anything else on him. And so...I have a total distrust of drugs and doctors and this is something my T works on with me. Just another anxiety to add to my list.

The first time my T suggested meds was just one year ago. I had been seeing him only for 2 months at the time and had made very little deep progress. I was still testing him out and trying to decide if he was 'safe". I was also struggling with my transference, not really understanding it. Since then we have covered a lot of ground and discovered so many things that contribute to my anxiety/depression. Mostly my attachment issues. My T does admit that I have made a lot of progress in changing my life and in my reactions but I still have a way to go. We both know this. But I do feel (and he agrees) that if I had just taken the anti-anxiety or AD meds one year ago... I would have had some relief and probably left therapy never getting to the "real" reasons for my overwhelming anxiety and once off meds I would have relapsed. Russ... much like your T has said about "losing the trail".

I can be a very strong and obstinate person and perhaps those qualities also allow me to function well despite the anxiety which I won't let defeat me. It's sort of like a battle in my mind and I want to win it. I also don't accept help very easily and just talking to my T and allowing him to be there for me has been a huge step for me. I'm starting to really believe that he WILL be there and that it's OK to ask for his help and that I deserve to even have the help in the first place. And he has learned that I need reassurance over and over again and he has come through with that now that he understands my unsecure attachment issues.

Russ I know that awful horrible anxiety that you speak of. Only someone who has been there can understand. And yes Catgirl... the roller coaster ride can really make life unbearable. In my case, the depression is not so debilitating as the anxiety. It just sort of kicks in every once in awhile.

I do hope we find the answers we need but at least we have this place to come and find comfort in the meantime.

TN

TN,

I can see how you'd have issues with meds. I have a similar feeling about ativan. When my mom was dying, she was having seizures. They gave her some ativan. She had always had an adverse reaction to ativan. She would take it after radiation, and be out of it for a few days. The ativan stopped the seizures, which I was grateful for, but she never woke up after taking it. Part of me blames the ativan; but I know that if she had woken up, she would have been in excruciating pain. (Writing about this is bringing all of the memories and pain back. I miss her so much! And I miss my T when I miss my mom. At least I get to see my T on Monday. I'll never see my mom again.)

So, I understand your objections to meds.

Would you consider looking into the enzymes? Apparently, they're natural. If you want info, maybe I could ask my friend's friend who gave them to her for a website or something. Just a thought. I'm not trying to fix it or anything, so don't feel obligated.

I hope you find something that works, whatever it may be.

And, you're right. I'm so happy to have found this place. I wish I had found it 2 years ago.

Just wanted to say that this is an awesome topic and discussion and I've learned a lot. Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by QueenGrey:
Just wanted to say that this is an awesome topic and discussion and I've learned a lot. Thanks!

I'm just curious, what part of this topic is of interest to you?

Two things -- 1)

quote:

But when we move to meet those needs, guess what we're doing? We doing things that register as VERY DANGEROUS to us. And our mind will do whatever it needs to in an attempt to keep us safe. Including making us feel anxious anytime we start to express our feelings so we can be heard, or reach out to someone in connection.

and 2) Your list of coping strategies (I like the idea of postponing self-hatred, sounds like AA principals). The Parts Therapy is interesting too -- I've been journaling a lot lately and interacting with a new voice inside that is completely positive and strong. I didn't realize that you could build your therapy around these motivations.

QG

I looked up the parts therapy on the internet. Apparently, it involves hypnosis and stuff. We didn't do that. I refuse to do hypnosis or EMDR. Anyway, you can look it up and see what you find.

The postponing self-hatred thing works pretty well. Also, just accepting that sometimes I hate myself works well, too.

My therapist has lots of tricks up her sleeve.

BTW, how are things going with your therapist?

catgirl

CW
I wouldn't want to be hypnotized either. Sounds too invasive.

quote:

Also, just accepting that sometimes I hate myself works well, too.

Interesting...I'll have to try that sometime. I know that when self hatred strikes, I am impulsive.

Thanks for asking about my own process. Things are going pretty badly from my end. I've attached myself and the fallout is intense. I keep looking at the boundaries as a failure on my part (rejection) and this has caused all kinds of activity that is impulsive and negative. I'm beginning to feel like therapy is synonymous to walking on a knife blade. It's strange because a very rational side of myself is emerging but she isn't strong enough yet. Plus, now my T wants me to do art work in the session. Talk about terrifying! (I'm an artist with a block that has been going on for 4 years!) The rational side of me wants me to plunge forward but due to the anxiety and angst that just talking therapy has produced, I cannot imagine what will happen when I couple it with my biggest weakness.

Hi all....

Interesting topic.....you know I couldn't resist jumping in on this one.

QG....if you are able to write then....that is what you need to share with your T. The reason I started drawing was because I had writers block. So share your writing and when that fails you....your art will come back. I'd bet money on it....and I'm a good gambler!

Parts therapy is....of course, a big part of my therapy. In my situation...it kind of goes without saying. LOL.....

I do not find hypnosis to be problem...we use it minimally in my therapy. Sometimes it helps to keep the therapy on track and under control.

I can relate to your statement about therapy being like walking on the edge of a knife....I see it as walking a barbwire tightrope. (And have a drawing that illustrates that...I'll post it if I have the time.)
Take a sketch pad to your therapy....give it a shot....don't judge yourself. Just let it flow and see what happens. It couldn't hurt, could it? And if it does....then maybe it is the direction you need to work in. Therapy's main goal is to uncover your pain and help you deal with it and understand it...isn't it?
Art is not a rational process...and neither is therapy. Don't let your rational mind take over....it won't help you but will only serve to throw up resistences to doing what you really NEED to do. It is a defense mechanism.

Just my thoughts on the subject. If you have any questions....that I might be able to help you with...feel free to ask.

SD

Soulfuldaze: Actually, I do share my writing with my T. In fact, he's got one of my latest ramblings right now. So, put your money down, I'm not sure if you can win this one -- my block is still quite enormous. Thanks for the encouragement though, that's very cool to hear that your block was negotiated during therapy. What I'd really like to know: What was keeping you from writing???

Russ, did you delete your rant? It's okay to rant. I know that I do my fair share. I'm sorry that things are so rough for you. Trust me, I can sympathize. I suppose that both of us need to learn how to trust ourselves. Try this link: transference
It's about a completely different kind of interaction than what occurs in therapy, but it's got some great examples of transference. Being angry and expecting more is one of them. You seem to be having a lot of difficulty meshing with your T -- perhaps another therapist would be better for you?

Hi QG,

I guess you could say I'm having a bad year. Since last May, I've been in therapy 3 days a week for what I can only call an impossible-to-define oppressive mixture of physical fear and depression.

As the weeks and months continue and I continue to NOT see any improvement, I am getting more and more angry at the fact that I've done all this painful work in therapy and have nothing to show for it, at least in how I feel on a day to day basis.

Of course, this anger then gets directed at my therapist. Changing therapists right now would not be a good thing for me. There is no way I am starting this whole thing all over again. I'm in way too deep with my current one. He's an excellent therapist, the problem is that the therapy just isn't working in improving my symptoms. I feel like I've got some kind of horrible, therapy-resistant disease.

Anyway, I deleted my rant because I'm sick of pissing and moaning about how awful I feel. People on this board have been really wonderful, and I don't want to post another "God I feel awful when is this all going end" thing.

Thanks for checking in. I appreciate it.

Russ

quote:

What I'd really like to know: What was keeping you from writing???

Hi QG...

My writing seemed to stop....when I could no longer find words to express myself. I was flooded with images that I could not describe or explain. I became somewhat mute for a time, and then I started drawing...obsessively. No sleeping....no eating...just me and my pencils. I had to get some of the images out and drawing was the only avenue still open to me.
We used them in my therapy much as you would use dream images...and as we went along I began to find my voices and the images began to speak.
I am now back to writing full time, but my drawing is suffering a set back. I wish I could find the right balance between them.
OH...and about the money? LOL...I'll take it to Nevada with me, I may go tonight. I'll let you know how it works out!

SD

Hi Russ,
You're not pissing and moaning. You're facing very difficult, painful stuff and you have every right to express how that feels, as many times and in as many ways as you need to. Just because there was no one to listen to you the first time doesn't mean you didn't have something important to say that should have been listened to. I can not tell you strongly enough, that you got so MUCH less than you deserved. Don't continue that treatment in your parents place by silencing yourself and stopping yourself from expressing your pain, your anger, your frustration and any other feelings you're having. We get it here, we know how painful it is, and how much it cries out to be heard. You're NOT whining. Don't make me get out the HTML slapper, I haven't been around for a while (SORRY!) and it just seems like a bad way to jump back in.

I know you're close to despair but you really will heal and I know you feel like you've seen no improvement but its happening. You will get there.

AG

AG... it's wonderful to have you back with us.

Russ... I read your post and it was not pissing and moaning. It was written by someone in pain who needed a place to talk about it. And this is a safe place to do so. I do really get how you feel with the anxiety and how debilitating it can feel. Don't give up on your therapy because you need to express your feelings and you deserve to be heard. Have you asked your T if he thinks you have made any progress? Sometimes we can't see/feel our progress. My T and I had this talk recently. He reminded me of some good and positive things that I have done even though the anxiety is still ever-present. But once or twice when it did kick in I was able to talk and reason myself out of the feelings. The intensity and duration was less and that is a small victory for me. I think knowing my T is there for me is an important part of this victory.

And if you want to post about how awful you are feeling then we are here to listen.

TN

Thanks so much AG and TN. You guys are the best. Truly.

Ok, you asked for it...here's my revised rant.

My shrink is strange. It's hard to describe. If I ask him something like, "can you please tell me where you've seen some progress in me," he won't give me an answer. He just won't. He'll turn it around into a question about why wanting to know about progress is important to me. I f-ing hate this and I hate him for never, ever being encouraging as I sit there in his office bawling and feeling like I'm going to die. I told him last night that I hate him, I hate the way he looks and I hate his stupid clothes and I hate when his damn phone rings when I'm talking. I told him that was rude. I told him that he has no empathy and, therefore, has no credibility. He just sat there and took it. I told him that therapy was a useless waste of time and money, and nothing comes out of it. He said, "except this anger and hatred." OK, point taken.

I think the not answering questions directly bit is a total cop out. I have to answer my own questions ALWAYS, and because I have no faith in myself and no self-confidence, I don't believe or take to heart my own answers. I've explained this to him. He just nods. It's some b.s. tough love therapy crap. Why do I want to know if I've made progress and need to hear it from YOU? Because I feel like I'm about to die everyday, you stupid ahole!

Oh, and don't ask for any words of support or encouragement. No sir. He refuses to use "platitudes". He's an un-empathetic prick. At this point, I don't know what to do. I'm in such an God-awful place and therapy doesn't help. It just doesn't. It's like I've got some therapy-resistant brain disease.

The only "encouraging" thing he's said recently was this: "I'm not going to just say something to try and inspire you or give you hope. This is f-ing hard work." Yeah, that makes me feel great. I wasn't aware that it was "hard."

Meanwhile, I sleep like crap every night, have f-ed up dreams and wake up at 4 am with the dreaded "fear" just about every morning and feel like hell all day. I can't live like this.

So now I guess I'm going to try the ADs again because I can't function feeling scared and depressed everyday all day anymore. At this point I'd rather snort smack if it would give me one good night's sleep and one day of feeling OK.

I've always heard that it's darkest just before the dawn. Ok, dawn, where the f are you? I've been waiting for a LONG time.

Russ

Russ,
I just wanted to share something that's standing out for me but I also want to make it perfectly clear that I could be WAY off base. When I hear you talking about your T, it sounds like you're talking about your father. The lack of empathy, the lack of support and the lack of response. There could be two different reasons for this. The first is that you're seeing this in your T because you are experiencing transference so you're seeing what you "expect" in your T and he is letting you work through it while staying engaged so you can experience something different. On the other hand, you could have found your father again, this could be an enactment in which he is acting out some countertransference so that rather than having a reparative emotional experience, you are repeating the old damaging patterns and reinforcing them.

My T is big on the whole frustration thing, and really big on the NOT doing anything for me I can do for myself. BUT he is very encouraging and often gives me feedback about my progress. And when I say something that he knows is a lie, he tells me so. The best way to describe it is that he acts like an accurate mirror of reality. When I express feelings that don't accurate reflect reality, he lets me know it.

It's difficult to discern because even when therapy is working correctly, we often feel like we're flailing around in the dark. But I'm hearing a great deal of frustration from you. And although there are times when I get angry at my T and even want to throw things at him, there are also times when I feel very close, safe and cared for. I can trust in his care for me, and feel secure with him.

You may want to consider that there is a possibility that he is not a good therauptic match for you. I know how horrible the thought of starting over is, but you wouldn't be starting over. You take with you anything that you've learned.

I want to stress again that I could be totally off base. You know your T and he knows you much better than I know either of you, but I am concerned at how disconnected you're feeling.

AG

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
When I hear you talking about your T, it sounds like you're talking about your father. The lack of empathy, the lack of support and the lack of response. There could be two different reasons for this. The first is that you're seeing this in your T because you are experiencing transference so you're seeing what you "expect" in your T and he is letting you work through it while staying engaged so you can experience something different.

AG,
I think you're right that the bad feelings are very similar to those that I have towards my father but never expressed. I don't know what your experience has been with your T, but when I express anger toward mine, he'll sit there, look at me, listen very intently, never interrupts me, and gives me a lot of time before he says anything about it. There is NO emotion on his part. He's never, not once, ever expressed any kind of defensiveness or anything that would suggest that what I'm saying at that moment is wrong or not OK. On one occassion when he was late and I had to wait, he even asked me why I wasn't pissed off at him, because I should've been, and I should've told him. This is most definitely NOT how my father would've responded to my anger toward him.

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
On the other hand, you could have found your father again, this could be an enactment in which he is acting out some countertransference so that rather than having a reparative emotional experience, you are repeating the old damaging patterns and reinforcing them.

It's possible of course, but what does a reparative emotional experience look like in this context? He's not dismissing my anger or throwing it back onto me like my dad would have. In fact, he's perfectly OK when I sit there and rant about how much I can't stand him or his style. And he did say that feeling this anger and hatred for him and myself during the session is what I need to do. If countertransference means "unconscious and unwanted hostile feelings toward a patient," that's not really what I feel from him. He's not hostile at all. I have felt that close, cared for feeling from him, but it's pretty rare and I haven't felt it in a couple of months.

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
You may want to consider that there is a possibility that he is not a good therauptic match for you. I know how horrible the thought of starting over is, but you wouldn't be starting over. You take with you anything that you've learned.

I know, but the idea makes me ill. I just don't know what to do. The idea of leaving him and finding the "right" therapist is not something I think I could handle right now.

Last night he said this: "you have three choices when it comes to your anger toward me. You can just stop coming. You can seek out empathy and sympathy from me and the things that you feel are missing and are required for us to have a closer connection and, as a result, avoid the anger. Or you can have the courage to walk in here, feel your anger toward me and express it like you did tonight."

Not really sure what to make of that.

Thanks so much again for your input.
Russ

((((Russ))))

I'm sorry you are still having a difficult time, but I think you are in the midst of a storm that has been lurking your entire life- one that has to pass.

I have to say that your T's strategy seems remarkably similar to my T's, except we aren't dealing much with anger right now. Here's how I see things playing out (I hope I can make it come across clearly):

You have a lot of anger built up from your childhood, and rightfully so. You were never able to express this anger because it wasn't safe to do so. And it was scary to even think about. Now, you've found a T with whom you feel it is safe enough to express this anger- someone who CAN handle it, no matter what; someone who doesn't react to you or try to change your feelings. However, there is also a little Russ in there who wants to be consoled. He wants to be comforted and told that it's okay to be angry, that his feelings don't change him, that he is always Russ no matter what he feels. He needs soothing. But your T can't do the consoling, just like my T can't console me. We have to be the ones to console ourselves, even though it is awful and isn't fair. Otherwise, we depend on our T's for regulation and soothing, and that isn't their job. Their job is to teach us to do it for ourselves- something we should have learned a long time ago, but didn't.

To me, the very thing you want the most speaks the loudest to your T. The empathy and emotion your looking for... what would it mean to you if he gave it to you? What would it mean if YOU gave it to you? What if you said "it's okay for me to be angry." You might also try reminding yourself that you aren't bad and awful just because your feelings are. And just because you KNOW that doesn't mean your entire self feels that way.

If I were a betting woman, I'd say that your T is intentionally careful and reserved when praising you or discussing your progress. I bet he knows that it would mean a lot to you, but it will mean a whole lot more if you can comment on your own progress and mean it without his ideas and thoughts getting in the way.

My T does the same type of thing when it comes to nurturance. She knows that I get extremely distracted and enchanted by any notion that she will by my mom and soothe me. But staying stuck in the fantasy of transference isn't what therapy is about. We aren't going through this shit to get them to comfort, save, fix, or protect us... we are doing it so we can do all those things for ourselves. It just so happens that we REALLY WANT them to do it so we can feel better NOW. And it sucks and it feels like rejection. But it is what we each have to learn.

Anyway, I hope some of that makes sense. Just know your not alone in your frustration. I hope that it lifts soon, but moreso, I hope that you can take from it what you are supposed to take from it.

-CT

Hi Russ,
Hearing your description of how your T handles your anger definitely sounds like a reparative experience to me. The acceptance, the non-defensiveness and even how clearly he invites your anger are all very positive things. I think his approach may be slightly different than my Ts but that certainly doesn't mean its wrong.

And when you talk about him I hear that you trust him. I think you just needed to talk about how angry the whole thing was making you, and I know there are times where therapy makes me crazy angry and I really want to quit. I think instead of my trying to fix it, it would have been better to just listen to you because you're already fixing it. I'm sorry. But enjoy the irony since I was one of the people urging you to share how you feel.

I know that you're having trouble seeing it but you are making real progress Russ.

AG

quote:

Originally posted by Chronically Transferred:
I'm sorry you are still having a difficult time, but I think you are in the midst of a storm that has been lurking your entire life- one that has to pass.

I think you're right, CT. Again.

quote:

Originally posted by Chronically Transferred:
I have to say that your T's strategy seems remarkably similar to my T's...

This is really great to hear. I'm so glad I'm not the only one enrolled in the Hardass School of Psychotherapy.

quote:

Originally posted by Chronically Transferred:
However, there is also a little Russ in there who wants to be consoled. He wants to be comforted and told that it's okay to be angry, that his feelings don't change him, that he is always Russ no matter what he feels. He needs soothing. But your T can't do the consoling, just like my T can't console me. We have to be the ones to console ourselves, even though it is awful and isn't fair. Otherwise, we depend on our T's for regulation and soothing, and that isn't their job. Their job is to teach us to do it for ourselves- something we should have learned a long time ago, but didn't.

I really need to get this through my head, because it's so, so true.

quote:

Originally posted by Chronically Transferred:
If I were a betting woman, I'd say that your T is intentionally careful and reserved when praising you or discussing your progress. I bet he knows that it would mean a lot to you, but it will mean a whole lot more if you can comment on your own progress and mean it without his ideas and thoughts getting in the way.

I think you'd win that bet.

CT, thanks a million times over for this post. Reading this, and AGs and everyone else's helped me today. A lot. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Russ

AG,

You have nothing to apologize for!!! Your input today prompted me to step back a bit from my frustration and despair - which always clouds my ability to see things accurately - and take a second look at the whole thing. My ranting is real and legitimate, but it's also a kind of complaint - a grievance - against my therapist for pushing me beyond my comfort zone, and I tend to gloss over the facts in my anger.

He once told me to never hesitate to make demands of him...not because he'd comply with them, but because he's making demands of me, which is to think and feel. No one has ever demanding that I think about myself and my feelings before, and I don't like it. Not at all.

Anyway, don't apologize. Your replies are always so wonderful and insightful, and I am so grateful for them.

Russ

You're very kind Russ, thank you.

And I get the anger at being pushed beyond your comfort zone. We had a couples session once where my T was pushing me really hard, using things he had learned in my individual sessions to push a point in our couples work. I spent the whole appointment totally pissed at him. He has a statue of two intertwined dolphins that sits on the table between my chair and his and I spent a lot of the appointment fantasizing about throwing it at his head. But on some level, I really trusted him, that he was pushing me for a good reason, and I could trust him to not push me beyond what I could handle. So even thought it was difficult and I was angry, I stayed with him and we ended up doing some really good work.

It just so happened that time that we had an individual session the next morning after that couples session and he immediately brought up the session and said that he it had seemed like I had a tough time and could we talk about it? So I told him how badly I had wanted to throw something at him and he totally accepted that. It was such an incredible experience to be able to say that and have it be ok.

We had a really good talk about his pushing me and he made it very clear that he pushed me because he knew I could handle more than I believed I could but he was also very careful when he did push, that it was done after thoughtful consideration, and with attention to how I was handling it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't piss me off.

When you think about it, it's an incredible sign of progress that we can feel the anger and then express it to the person that we're angry with. A thing that would have been totally impossible to do when we were kids. We really are getting better.

AG

quote:

But your T can't do the consoling, just like my T can't console me. We have to be the ones to console ourselves, even though it is awful and isn't fair. Otherwise, we depend on our T's for regulation and soothing, and that isn't their job. Their job is to teach us to do it for ourselves- something we should have learned a long time ago, but didn't.

My T agreed to two sessions a week so today I was so happy when I went in that it was shattering the moment this particular idea was brought forward -- I was telling him about my anxiety about being dependent upon him and needing to see him and it came up, maybe being dependent is really working for me. Now I feel stupid and wish I had not gone. Being dependent is NOT working for me, it never does, but what do I do about it????? I feel like he's not helping, like he's leaving me to dangle. UGH!!!! Now I'm ranting, I'm so frustrated with myself. Like I'm not seeing the forest for the trees. What do I do now????

QG,
I think you're being too quick to condemn being dependent. I think when attachment issues are involved that we do need to be dependent on our Ts to learn from them what we didn't from our parents: to tolerate and regulate our emotions and to be able to express and feel them. I posted on this with a quote from A General Theory of Love which was pivotal in getting me to accept being dependent, you can see it here.

AG

Hey QG! I'm sorry my comment upset you. Please know that I am not downing or saying depending on your T while learning is bad. I think it is crucial, like AG said, so that we can learn what our parents did not teach us.

I am dependent on my T for a lot... but I know it is a way of getting me to depend on myself long term. I can't be satisfied with her doing it (whatever "it" is) for me, even if I REALLY REALLY want to. I have to remember that while she is willing to model certain behaviors for me- and explain them and help me internalize them- she isn't here for me to be comfortably relying on for self soothing indefinitely. Plus, remember my work and your work are different. Trust that your T knows what is best... not me! He wouldn't allow you to come twice a week if it wasn't good for you or the right thing to do. And maybe allowing yourself to be dependent is where you need help... I don't know, but I am sure your T does.

Please, don't worry too much. Have faith that you and your T are doing what is best for you. ((((QG))))

-CT

CT -- You certainly did not upset me, I upset me. I was merely stunned to see that you explained what I know consciously, but can't seem to get around. It's frustrating -- I just feel like a little kid, "But I want, I want, I want..."

He DOES have an agenda, I know. In fact, after posting, I took a walk to clear my head and came back to my studio, ready to draw. It was euphoric - I drew for over an hour and I feel really good. He didn't control me, he let me control me and today, I think I did a good thing.

Hi Russ....

You've been through the wringer on this one haven't you? I too am going to that "hard ass" school of psychotherapy. My T is very much like yours and it is frustrating as hell! She is finally...(after how long? 18 years?) starting to give me some feedback and revealing her thoughts about my process. I'm not sure if she is doing it because it is time....or to keep me from bolting and dropping therapy entirely. I'm a stubborn ass....and I'm still hanging in there. I refuse to lose all the time I have put into this endeavor.

I wish I could express my anger as clearly as you expressed yours....I'm sure my T would love it! And I would probably spend weeks trying to recover. hmmmmm......

One day....I told her that I thought therapy was blatantly masochistic....and she very calmly replied that it was sadistic as well. So I know...that she knows that what she is doing is causing me immense pain...but it has to be that way. It was great pain that brought me to "the couch" in the first place....so it is that pain that we must revisit to repair the damage that was done.

I guess the path to enlightenment is covered with shards of glass...

SD

Hi SD,

Yes, I feel like I've been through the wringer. As much as I hate the idea, I am going to try meds again to see if they can at least diminish the symptoms to the point that it's not making my day-to-day existence so miserable, and thus allow me to focus on my work in therapy (not to mention my job and my life in general).

There has to be something out there that will work for me. It's one thing when symptoms are the "path" to the root of the problem. It's another when they become a giant boulder in that path, blocking the way.

It's becoming more and more clear that, as CT says, I'm in the midst of a kind of hell that has been lurking and gaining strength for a very, very long time, and if the process of overcoming it is going to take years and years, I sure as hell can't feel like I do now in the meantime...there's just no friggin' way I could live with that. So we'll see.

Best,
Russ