Hmm. Maybe you can't get PAST the grief because you aren't willing to go THROUGH it.

(((Liese)))

I think that AG ha said it all but I wanted you to know I was thinking of you. I think the longing and wanting to be loved is so painful. I don't want a romantic relationship with my T but I desperately want to matter to him in some kind of special way. It has gotten so painful to read other people's posts about the special moments they have with their T's because I don't think I will ever experience that.

I hope the pain gets easier to bear.

(((BLT)))

It just feels like another loss for me already. I'm not sure how I would be avoiding going through the grief? My thought was to leave him so that I could grieve him and move on. I'm confused.

(((AG)))

Thanks for all your thoughts on my situation. In the long run, I know it's probably all for the best to stay with him. The problem now is that I've been restored not to a terrific state of functioning, but I am functioning better than I was last year. I have more insight into myself. And I'm feeling like I can do this on my own. I had intended to NEVER get attached to anyone again and here, look at what happened.

On the other hand, I know that in the long run, I probably get more out of his consistency and his stability than I would get from him if he played another role in my life. And that's why this really spoke to me: " He was not going to be one more person to fail me. "

I just want to know that our relationship transcends that room. It's not like I'm going to call him if I get a flat tire. But is it something that he just puts into a box?

(((COGS)))

You don't sound too good. Thanks for posting.



Liese

quote:

All that being said, I can't get past the longing, the wanting to be loved, the grief and sadness.

Hi Liese,

I don't think I can add much to the wonderful responses that you have received, but I just want to say that in considering whether or not to stay with this T, you probably need to ask yourself if this T can help you deal with the feelings of longing and love within therapy, and the profound sadness of this experience.

From my experience some Ts and Ps just don't know how to handle it and then the feelings become much more intense and confusing. My exP fueled the fire because he apparently used patients to meet his needs, which I didn't realize at the time.

I think other Ts and Ps feel too uncomfortable in discussing our feelings for them and try to avoid the issue. I'm now worried that my current P may fall into this category. We recently started talking about boundaries and it's been quite painful for me and I'm not sure how comfortable he is with discussing all of this in-depth.

I didn't think I longed for anything beyond the boundary walls of therapy with him until recently, especially considering how my exP didn't keep boundaries. A few weeks ago, my P told me a story of a new patient and how she used to drive quite a long distance to see a P. This P would take her out to eat after her session because she drove so far to see him and this went on for years. My P laughed as he told me this, probably because he was thinking how unorthodox and unethical it was.

My immediate thought was...oh, how nice of the P to do this, but later on after I got home, I felt incredibly sad. I know what my P was saying about boundaries and I know that he wants to keep me safe, but it just hurts to think the idea of dinner with me would be laughable. And I'm sure he would tell me that he wasn't laughing at me, but this is how it feels to me and I'm stuck.


So I'm in a similar place as you in trying to decide if I should stay. My P has been wonderful in trying to clean up the aftermath of an unethical P but will he help me through this or will it be too awkward for him?

AG,
Your response was so helpful, exactly what I needed to hear right now and I loved your blog post as well! It's a harsh, painful reality to face that no matter how well our Ts or Ps conduct the therapy, and I believe your T is incredible, it won't be enough. Even if my P took me to dinner after a session and made me feel special that evening, it wouldn't be enough. I would probably just want something more.

It's so sad and so difficult as we try to navigate through all of this, but it does help to know that other people face these feelings and are willing to share their experiences.

Liese, I hope you find the answers you are seeking,

Summer

(((((SUMMER)))))

"it just hurts to think the idea of dinner with me would be laughable. " Even though I agree with you that he wasn't laughing at you but at something else but it feels that way, it would hurt me too.

I had a similar type of incident with my T when he went away on vacation. He doesn't go away a lot and it was the first vacation I actually admitted to myself how attached I was to him and how hard the separation was going to be for me.
We didn't really process it ahead of time and on the day of the last session, he was in a really good mood and laughed a lot. So, there I was, feeling like a little girl who is so sad that her AF is going away and he's laughing (it felt like, at me).

Oh, it hurt so much. We've talked and talked and talked about it. He feels really bad. The original hurt came from childhood, of course and I think is connected to my sister, who is older. She was very popular with the neighborhood kids and she had the power exclude me when they were playing. She herself would laugh as I turned around to go home and her laugh cut so deep.

So, I have forgiven T. He wasn't laughing at my pain. I hope you can talk to your P about it. Believe me, I know how hard it all is and how strong the tempation to run is.

But I think I figured out why I want to leave T now. You see, I can do this work with any therapist. I can still go on to have a happy life. I can grieve him and move on and just add him to my list of losses. But if I stay with him, I'm giving HIM the satisfaction of seeing this (my growth) through to fruition and getting the satisfaction of a hopefully successful and happy outcome. And I don't want to give him that right now. I know that this is very immature but I'm so mad that loving him has all been so painful for me (and I accept that this is my life, my lot in life and he hasn't caused my problems), that I don't want HIM to get anything out of it. I want him to feel MY loss, MY pain.

I know, it's screwy.

Thanks all,

Liese

Oh, you mean you want to hurt HIM by leaving him?

I don't think it's that screwy. You want him to understand your pain through feeling it himself. I think most of us do that kind of thing a lot without even realizing it.

What I meant about not wanting to go through the grief...I guess I meant maybe you would rather hold onto the hope of getting what you didn't as a child, either fro your T or another one, rather that grieving what will never be. But maybe that is not the case.

(((BLT))))

Yes. I guess I do want to hurt him. I was thinking of it in terms of not giving him the satisfaction of seeing me succeed (eventually) and "getting" anything from that for himself, for his needs.

I want him to experience loss because I don't think it's fair that I am the only one who has to experience it in this relationship. I'm pissed that I've experienced more than my share of loss due to my screwy attachment style. I know, other than the mammals who raised me, that it's no one else's fault out there in the real world. I know it's not T's fault that he has a more secure attachment style and hasn't had to endure what I've endured. But so many people with secure attachments, in my opinion, look down upon people with insecure attachments. "She's too needy." In my mind, they came by their secure attachments not by virtue of anything they did, anything they worked for, anything they had to suffer through to get but by virtue of the mammals that raised them.

I know it's all very childish but I'm being honest. It's where I am at right now.

Well Liese, I think you're right that it isn't fair all that you have had to suffer simply because of the way you were raised. I think at the minimum you deserve the full validation and recognition of the crap you've had to go through, to refute the messages you got about being "too needy."

Have you ever expressed to your T how unfair it feels to you that things are so much easier for him and have been?

(((BLT))))

We have not talked about it directly, about how unfair it seems to me. All I think is that he must have deserved it, that he is smarter and worked harder, was "blessed" with a balanced personality and didn't get sidetracked like I did.

But then a part of me feels bad because I know that he has his own struggles and I don't know what they are. It feels wrong of me to discount his struggles because mine are worse, kwim? Actually, I don't know what his were/are so I really don't know if mine are worse. But I can tell you that he did not suffer from academic, financial, career and social problems. He also told me the other day, when I told him that I don't feel like he is "with" me emotionally, that that's the way he is. He feels things and then he doesn't hold onto the feelings. And so, it doesn't sound like he struggles on that level either.

Hmm, I think all of that sounds like stuff you should definitely talk about! It's clearly been going around in your head for a while now. I think you're trying to bypass your anger and envy about it because of not wanting to dismiss his own struggles, but therapy isn't about protecting your T that way. I'm sure he's already had to deal with his own stuff about comparing his background to that of his clients.

Let me just say something...I know I have struggled in a number of ways in life. And yet, if I were your T, and you came in and said, "I think I've struggled more than you have in life, and it's not fair, " well, I would have to say something like, "You are right Liese, I think you probably did have to struggle more than me and there's really nothing fair about it at all. I didn't do anything to deserve and easier childhood than you and you did nothing to deserve a harder one, and I'm sad that there is nothing I can do to change that unfairness. And even if what you experienced wasn't worse than what I did, it doesn't matter. You still didn't deserve to suffer what you did, and you're still entitled to thinking that I might have had it easier, and all of your feelings related to that."

I say talk to him about this stuff! It will move your therapy forward a lot I think!

I agree with BLT - taking all of this in to your sessions will help. It will deepen your work with him and he will help you untangle some of it. It is a painful but very fruitful place you are in. I wish it was less painful.

I know that having a therapist turn into a partner, is hell. I posted on teh book forum a book about this, which gives the real life accounts of several women whose therapist let them become their lover or partner. It messed them up beyond belief, even though they each admitted it was what they were begging for, they WANTED the relationship and the therapist let it happen. Broken Boundaries, I think is the books name.

hugs S

(((BLT)))((((SADLY))))

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I see Monday's session taking shape already.

The thing is, now I think it's a form of control. I can't force him to love me. I can't control that. But I can control how he feels about the outcome of my therapy. I can continue to "cooperate" (go to therapy) and he will feel good or I can leave and leave him with a therapy failure.

I think in the back of my mind, if I stay, I will never be as important to him as he is to me. Just a client. But if I leave, it could be a big disapppointment for him. And in that way, I'll have ensured that he feels "something" for me, even if it's negative.

Oh, I'm so ugly underneath it all. Maybe it's just a way of dealing with the persistent feelings of powerlessness?

I don't really think it's ugly, Liese. It's just human

Hi Liese,

I'll just add that I find it interesting that you are looking for 'clinical' reasons to stay-- as if there was some objective measuring stick that you could weigh your decision against... but I think, unfortunately... no such objectivity or logic exists in these kinds of cases. It's scary to think that there's really no 'right' answer, but hopefully it's, likewise, comforting to think that there's no 'wrong' answer either? This is YOUR journey-- if you see a fork in the road, take it



effed

Hi Effed,

Thanks for your input. Yes, I am looking for an objective way to measure this. I was thinking that if I left him and started to work with another therapist, I would add him and the relationship to my loss column, which is quite large. And that in and of itself could be more damaging than me staying and working this through with him.

And, on top of it, I'd have to start from scratch. I wouldn't just be able to go right into a relationship with another therapist right away. And, so on top of being set back in that way, now I'd have this therapeutic relationship to process.

Although, honestly, I don't feel as though I'd spend a lot of time on it. Maybe just try to understand why it happened and why my feelings felt so powerful.

But, I don't think I would cry for months over this.

That's what I was thinking!

back atcha

Liese

quote:

Although, honestly, I don't feel as though I'd spend a lot of time on it. Maybe just try to understand why it happened and why my feelings felt so powerful.

Hi Liese,

I know your reasons for possibly leaving your T are different from why things ended with my exP, but I also thought that I'd use the therapy with my current P to try and understand why I had such intense feelings with the exP.

I honestly believed that I would not develop strong feelings for this P and would have no problems ending therapy with him. I think that's why I'm struggling right because if I care for him, it opens the door to being hurt again.

I know it's a very difficult decision of whether to stay, leave, or see another T, but you may find that even if you start over with a very different T, in time these feelings may resurface if they weren't resolved. That's what is happening to me right now.

Thank you for understanding how hurt I was by my Ps story, even though it wasn't his intention, just as with your T in sharing his upcoming vacation. I did try to speak with my P about it last week and he approached it from a more intellectual viewpoint, while of course, for me, it was all about emotions!

I worry now that he'll feel as if he cannot share anything with me for fear that I'm hypersensitive to everything he says.

One other thing...you said if you left him, you could control his feelings because he would be disappointed with a therapy failure. Would he share this with you? Or has he told you that if you left he would feel sad and disappointed?

I'm asking because several months ago, I told my P I wasn't coming back due to a issue between us. His response was to wish me well and say I was welcomed back. Then the pain of rejection hit me because he wasn't expressing any sorrow or disappointment. Obviously I went back and we discussed what happened. At that point, he apologized and I realized he did feel badly about what had happened. Had I just left and never returned, I wouldn't have known how he felt. Even then, he didn't go into great details about his feelings, but instead tried to focus on how I was feeling the need to leave.

take care,
Summer

((((AG))))

Thank you for your reply. I am still struggling to understand it all. Trying to understand a profession that encourages people to reveal the deepest parts of themselves, and then draws lines in the sand. "You will feel more for me than I will for you and that is the way it must be." The intimacy is HUGE (on my side) but the relationship fits into cell A5. (took an excel class today).


I can understand intellectually why it is that way, I suppose. I was just unprepared for the roller coaster ride I went on.

I can't seem to balance my feelings. I swing from loving him to nothing at all.

I wondered today if I want to leave so that I can keep the relationship in this ideal state in my mind, always loving him the way I do now. Maybe I'm afraid that if I stay, I'll eventually feel nothing for him and I want to hang onto these feelings.