Hi Jones,
I'm sorry for what you're going through because I've been there. I'm not sure if you've read any of my previous posts but at one point my husband and I were having very serious marital problems. Part of the problem was getting him to even see that the problems were serious (it took our T very directly (unprecedented actually for a therapist) telling my husband that our marriage was in trouble to wake him up) that I needed to get to the point of being ready to walk out before my husband got really engaged and starting working on things. By then I was so exhausted and worn out that I wasn't sure I WANTED to work on things.

We had a couples' session that my husband had to cancel out on at the last minute because of work, so I went alone. Very resentfully I might add, spotty attendance was one of the issues I was angry about. At the end of the session, I looked at my T (then our T, this was before I was working with him individually) and said "so do you really think we have a shot?" He thought about it for a minute and then looked at me and said "yeah, yeah I do" and I literally looked at him and thought "I don't get it but OK" So for a time I ran on my therapist's belief and not mine. I was there because the only way I could live with myself if I ended our marriage and broke up my kids family, I needed to know I had tried everything I could. But it was difficult to say the least because for a while there I really wasn't sure what I wanted. I just wanted it over because I was so wrung out.

I'm grateful now because we did pull through and in so many ways things are better between us then they have ever been (my T is also a brilliant couples therapist. ) Now I do NOT believe that it always works out that way or that it should. I would NOT presume to tell you what to do about your marriage, I just tell you this so that you know I understand what you're feeling.

My other observation, and take it with my usual grain of salt, is that you are in the middle of some really difficult transistions and ambivalence. Your therapist leaving, starting a new technique you have mixed feelings about, a large project at work, and struggling in your marriage. So much of that is out of your control that I'm wondering if you're not trying to force the only thing you can really control (working on your marriage) to a resolution so that at least ONE thing would be settled and you could refocus that energy into one of the other problems? I think you're not feeling upset, because you're too exhausted and overloaded to. You've kicked into survival mode (reasonably so) and you're looking for ways out.

It may be that your husband is going to have to understand that you have SO much going on right now that you are going to have to concentrate on something else besides the marriage right now in order to get through. That if you're pushed hard enough right now the decision is going to be that's it over because you only have so much time and energy. I really related to what you said about work because when things were really bad at home, work was a much simpler, less demanding place to be. It was clear what was expected of me and I knew how to do what I needed to do. I would dread going home. Again, came out on the other side of it.

Just because you can't see the way out or through doesn't mean there isn't one, it just means you can't see it right now. Be compassionate with yourself and try to let it be ok that you don't have all the answers right now. That it's ok to be uncertain and see how things work out.

AG

Hi AG,

Thank you so much for your understanding response, and for sharing how things were for you. We have been in and out of crisis for years now. Our circumstances have changed a lot over the last year and I've been able to make our material situation much better, recoup some energy, and change some important stuff - especially through therapy for both of us. But when 'stuff' happens I still hit that wall. Basically I feel like I NEED my T to be there, and his T to be there, if I'm going to keep going. I don't know how to keep mustering up the energy or if/why I even want to.

It is very hard after all this time to keep connecting with the emotions about it. So we end up in this situation where he is endlessly distraught, I am cold and want to get on with things, and it's horrible. I feel like an abuser.

Your comment about being compassionate is so helpful. It feels like the only thing that helps right now, to just try to keep pausing and shifting that internal feeling to gentleness for myself (and for him too). I feel so scared about the future but it helps to be kind now. Thank you.

J

Even though this isn't my thread I'm hearing a lot of things that are resonating with me. I feel your pain, Jones. I hear a lot of myself in what you are going through. And BB and AG you have both said some really important things that I needed to hear. Co-dependency is an awful thing to be stuck in, and it really feels like you ARE stuck, with no hope of getting out. I do appreciate you putting yourself out there Jones and I agree you need to be kind and gentle to yourself right now because you are going through A LOT, and we do tend to want to put aside the things that seem to be what we do have control over so we can focus on the things that are screaming a bit louder at us. Take care, and please go easy on yourself.

Blackbird, & More Than Fine,

Thank you so much for the great gentleness and depth of understanding in these posts. They are spot on and made me cry. It does feel like an impossible mess, with no escape - on one level - and then on another, as you say BB, like "nothing is wrong". It's really hard to understand which reality I'm in or why they are so different.

I can't engage with it in more depth right now but thank you both again.

Jones

Hi Jones,

I've been meaning to respond to your post for a while...a lot of what has been said in this thread resonates with me, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
So we end up in this situation where he is endlessly distraught, I am cold and want to get on with things, and it's horrible. I feel like an abuser.

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
It does feel like an impossible mess, with no escape - on one level - and then on another, as you say BB, like "nothing is wrong".

quote:

Originally posted by Blackbird:
Especially when you get to the point if you don't even know if you care anymore, that is just awful.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackbird:
to realize my husband carries part of responsibility for the problems too,(even when I am being a total jerk...well, there is usually a reason for why I act that way) and me to realize how much I actually need him. (to care as much as I do, to not be "a child" himself (at all times,) to not be waiting for me to make every important decision...

quote:

Originally posted by Blackbird:
I find I always tend to feel responsible for making him feel better about himself.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackbird:
I can't take care of him anymore, or his feelings, when I'm coming up empty myself.

I guess I don't have anything to add right now, just wanted to say I'm in a similar place. We started couples therapy a year and a half ago, which turned into the individual therapy with my former T, and then with my current T. Now we are looking at starting again with couples therapy in a few weeks. I would be interested to hear how your relationships improve or progress as time goes on...I really feel pretty lost most of the time with this marriage thing.

Take care,
SG

I am dealing with similar issues in my marriage.(I don't know how I missed this thread the first time around.)

We tried couple's therapy about a year ago and it was a disaster. My husband refused to speak and got defensive with the T whenever she tried to talk to him. Later he would say that he wouldn't talk to her because the issue I brought up was "personal" and "none of her business".

At the end of the third session the T said, "I don't see what the big problem is. You just need to spend more time together. Go on dates. Take a dance class together." Then she basically told us to get lost and come back when we've got real problems to discuss.

All the while, I am sitting there screaming on the inside, "I don't love him!! I want out!! THAT is a PROBLEM!" This was also at the height of my in-love-with-my-P phase that no one knew about. Not exactly something I wanted to bring up in couple's therapy.

I think marriage counseling would work much easier if the T talked to each person separately first, and then together. This T refused to do that. Do you Ts speak to you and your spouse separately at all?

I too am dealing with marital issues, and so much of what you have all posted here resonates deeply.
We did couples therapy for about 9 mos and stopped last fall, after a frustrating session of non-productive arguing. I know we need to get back there, and I know it would take me scheduling and pushing it with my husband, and then I could probably get him there. I am just too tired, and don't want to put the energy into it. Feeling extreme guilt for typing that - we have 2 children.

I have wondered about my seeming ambivalence and what feels like a push to just get on with my life. I wonder if it is about me really being done, or if it is more that it's easier than dealing with the issues in my marriage, and my attempt to escape from them and really my life as it is. I start thinking about 'single me' and starting over. I do feel love for my husband in the rare moments we are connecting, but often, especially when I'm angry with him (which is often), I go right into this way of thinking and I want out.

For me, it feels like that familiar pattern of I would rather be alone. But, I don't want to be alone.......

I am wondering, too if this is a common feeling in general or if it is related to attachment injury, so more common among those who struggle with attachment.

Echo - Our T saw us both separately a couple of times. Once in the beginning, and then a few months later. I also saw him alone a few more times, when my husband would cancel last minute. AWKWARD and IRRITATING!!

quote:

Originally posted by seablue:

For me, it feels like that familiar pattern of I would rather be alone. But, I don't want to be alone.......

I am wondering, too if this is a common feeling in general or if it is related to attachment injury, so more common among those who struggle with attachment.

Yes, yes, yes. I often think, "If I'm going to be lonely anyway, I might as well BE alone." But then I'd really be lonely. It's not as if my husband is great company for me, but being part of a couple can make life much easier. Being "single" again at my age, with kids, would be so socially isolating... It's not like other couples are going to invite their recently-split-from-partner friend along as a third wheel on their nights out. Also, I get the feeling from many friends that divorce is viewed as contagious. If I even hint that things aren't perfect, many people take a few steps back (I can actually SEE it!) or stop calling for a while.

As for the attachment injury, I push and push and push my husband away... then feel abandoned and alone. Why do I do this?!?!

Echo and Seablue,

Again, everything you just said...me too. Especially

quote:

Originally posted by Echo:
I often think, "If I'm going to be lonely anyway, I might as well BE alone."

and

quote:

Originally posted by Echo:
As for the attachment injury, I push and push and push my husband away... then feel abandoned and alone. Why do I do this?!?!

If you find out, let me know, will you please?

Echo, the marriage T we're going to see is going to see us the first time together for two hours, then the next week individually for one hour each, then back together again for 90 minutes to discuss how to proceed. The main reason I picked him is because his profile says he knows about attachment theory, which might mean he's good at figuring out the "why's" like the push/pull behavior you just described. I would imagine the way each one of us grew up has something to do with it.

As far as the T you tried...how strange that a T would see defensive closed-off behavior, and then say there's no problem. I wonder if it was sort of a reverse psychology attempt to get your husband to open up...that obviously failed. I'm sorry.

SG

Hiya,

Good to hear other people's experiences in this area - it's a tough one, pretty much the toughest for me. Echo & SB, we had an experience a year or two ago where my H actually walked out in the middle of a session and then refused all further contact with that T.


Now we are having a series of 10 sessions with our individual Ts together - the four of us in the room - and it's abominably expensive but feels safer and is working well. We each have someone looking out for us. I was anxious about it blowing out again, but we have now discussed that and set up communication for if either of us feels like it's getting too heavy.

Throughout this - the couples work and the individual work - I keep learning not to feel "through" my H's feelings. EG my first instinct in discussing my anxiety about the sessions getting out of control this time round was to say that my H was anxious, to explain all his feelings about it. Those were the feelings which I felt acutely aware of, not my own. In our relationship we tend to do it that way. But I am learning to stop and question that. My problem was MY anxiety about what might happen. Those are the only feelings I actually have any real knowledge of, or any jurisdiction over, they are the only ones I can honestly know and work with.

It's kind of a relief to know that that's my real job.

quote:

As for the attachment injury, I push and push and push my husband away... then feel abandoned and alone. Why do I do this?!?!

I can explain what this was in my case.

My T actually cued in on my attachment injuries by watching my husband and I try to get closer than do something, anything to cause us to move away from each other. Then after I told him that I was attracted to him, he watched me try to run every possible way I could think of. Understanding there were attachment injuries was the key to both our marital and my individual counseling.

What you are experiencing is the bind, or as my T affectionately refers to it "the hellish bind." This dynamic is what makes healing from attachment injuries so very difficult. So here's what's going on.

According to attachment theory, we have a biological instinct to stay close to our attachment figure so that we can survive. They teach us how to regulate our emotions, soothe ourselves, identify our emotions and needs and how to communicate our needs. A healthy human being is literally hard wired to move TOWARDS relationship to get their needs met. We never lose this. What a healthy adult hopes to achieve is not actually independence but interdependence. We never stop needing other people, but we learn how to fend for ourselves when someone else isn't available and we learn how to help other people who need us. But relationships NEVER cease to be important. Human beings have open physiological systems so that when we relate to another person emotionally, our systems actually interact.

So no matter what age we are, we need other people to get our needs met. And when we're children it's a matter of life and death.

But here's the rub, if you are abused or neglected my your caregiver, then moving towards them is the very thing that injures you, so that your amygdala learns that moving closer to other people is dangerous and needs to be avoided to keep you safe. And often the best situation we could achieve was to be alone. So alone feels safe.

So you move closer to get your needs met, but when you get move close enough for that to happen, the sense of danger gets so intense that you HAVE to move away. And part of moving away and keeping yourself safe is to leave before you can be left and hurt again. It helps if you remember that all of your behavior is driven by pain avoidance.

As I learned to move closer to my T, there was a little surprise waiting also. Moving close started to hold out the promise of having my childhood unmet needs met. But I HATED my needs, I hated having them, I hated longing for anything because I knew the ending and I knew it was painful and ugly. I finally realized that my whole life had been spent trying to find the perfect distance from someone in relationship so that my needs would be met, but I wouldn't move close enough to evoke my unmet needs and I could feel safe. It didn't exist.

So this is why its so confusing. Consciously, my whole life I was looking for someone to love me, and love me enough to not leave me if they knew me. I wanted a close intimate relationship. But what I didn't realize until I started to move closer to my T just how very terrifying it was to get that. So in order to heal we have to walk into the center of our terror, essentially doing something that feels life-threatening in order to heal.

It's incredibly confusing until you can understand the dynamic and the tension between moving closer and staying alone to be safe.

AG

SG, how you going? You sounded pretty lost when you posted about this. Hope you are okay.

((((((SG))))))

J

Hi Jones,

Yes, I'm hanging in there...thanks for asking! And thanks for the "hugs". You are right, I am pretty much "lost" when it comes to marriage. I'm just kind of treading water until we meet with our new couples T later this month. In talking with my T this week about my crying and ranting last week, I told her I don't know whether all of that was grief over what was "lost" in childhood, or whether at least some of it is frustration at being stuck in ineffective patterns of relating that could be changed. And some of it could be remorse over past decisions that obviously can't be changed now, and accepting that certain doors are forever closed as a result of those choices I made. I actually asked her if there's a diagnosis in the DSM-IV for "mid-life crisis". And then there's always those rackafrackin' hormones ramping everything up. She said it could very well be a mix of all those things and more. Sometimes I think therapy is like untangling the biggest ball of knots imaginable. Very slow and painstaking...but also a very cool feeling when one of the strings finally break free and I see another connection.

Anyway it is late and I am rambling...but I just wanted to say thanks for asking. And thanks for this thread, you are all articulating the very things that have been on my mind, too. It helps more than I can say.

SG

Hi SG,

Glad you are hanging in there. I am lost on this stuff too. We hit the serious issues in couple therapy this week and now my husband is being pretty relentlessly triggered. I find myself just saying whatever he needs to hear to keep him calm. I know this isn't right. He has told me not to talk about some stuff next week. Not right, but I also have to keep things under control so that I can work. This is the most pressured week of my year right now. On Monday I will see my t alone but I'm scared she won't be able to help me keep it under control.

Hi Jones,

I'm sorry to hear you are under so much pressure right now. Especially being pressured not to talk about certain things puts you in a terribly difficult position. It's hard for me to imagine what you are going through because it sounds like your husband handles...what would you call it, confrontation? facing the issues?...very differently than mine does. Mine practices a type of avoidance, too, but in a different way. I'm not sure what to say except that I am thinking about you and hoping your meeting with your T on Monday goes better than expected. Please keep us posted...

SG

Thanks SG. It's hard to imagine how next week's session will go when I feel like I have to pretend things are not an issue when they are. And because of this I don't feel safe discussing any of the other serious stuff. I guess we will cross that bridge when we come to it, though. Things could change before the couples session and no one can stop me talking to my t in my session. And my work pressure will soon ease up, I will have more time and emotional energy. I n the meantime it feels yuck, though. I can't say what I feel or mean, have to pretend.