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Confrontation and power in therapy

number9number9Member
I've been seeing a T for about 2 years and he has spent a lot of time establishing trust with me. He has alluded to the "hard work" that therapy would become. He has been an excellent therapist, to be honest.

I know that there are things I need to look at. But recently, in the middle of a session, the confrontive therapy started. It was sudden, and somewhat aggressive, and caught me off guard. I was probably over-intellectualizing about something, probably complaining/bitching, (not in an angry way) but also rationalizing. I can't even remember everything he said, but it was a flurry of criticisms that I could not even keep up with. He told me that I was rationalizing, whining, he was tired of my bullshit, etc. Anything I said after that, either to defend, give in, pause and listen, ask a question, (I admit partially to just get him to shut up)was met with interruption, and another set of what felt like attack to me- I tried to fight, I tried to agree, I tried to ask what he meant for clarification, and he just kept insisting that I was deflecting and resisting. I was VERY confused, and still am. It's like we started off fine, and ended up spiraling into orbit. I don't know what happened. It felt very unproductive, and to my embarrassment, I broke down and cried in frustration, but not after I felt my whole body kind of go into a stiff shock, and wanted to just shut down. I was quite close to telling him to @#! off, but didn't want to give him the satisfaction of a borderline like display of drama. (and that is an interesting response, I admit) He then told me that I was too easily offended, had too many triggers, and then started in with the kind words and compliments. I think he wanted to see me break down, to get through to me, to see me in a more "real" state. Later, that is what he said he was trying to do.

I'm not trying to pass blame, What happened in that session felt very much like how my parents communicated with me (except that my parents skipped the kind words) and my experiences in the military. Was that the point? He says it is, to get me to see that not every situation or person is a potential threat. Still confused, I still feel "unsafe".

I have a bad gut feeling about this. All of a sudden the trust we built has been greatly diminished. I feel angry and confused, and did end up confronting him. (dammit! it was too much!) I did give into my anger, and told him I thought he was being an ass. Then I rationalized, pleaded, gave an ultimatum...I told him that I can handle some confrontation, but that was just too much, and that I don't think I want to continue if he does it again. He told me that it was MY reaction, and I needed to tolerate the process, the discomfort. The question is, how much do I need to tolerate? When is appropriate to say NO! When I told him to never use that technique on me again, and his response was that I'm a black and white thinker, and I can't always have what I want. I can't process this. Do I have more issues that I thought I did, or is this guy just provoking me into it? And is there a purpose? Yeah, this is complex, black and white, my arse! I feel like I'm losing my own power.

I now feel more shame, I'm ruminating at night, alternating between arguing with him in my head at night and blanking it all out, and I'm feeling intense grief over this whole thing, because I really like this T. He is honest, real, and extremely supportive, and I'm considering walking out, quitting.

For the record, I don't have a background of volitile relationships. I avoid them in the first place. Yes, I can be judgemental. I tend to keep to myself, but I got so attached to this T that now I feel emotions that I don't like- I have never considered myself to be the borderline type, more of an avoider, but I feel those emotions now- anger, wanting to hold onto this relationship to the extent now where I feel like the clingy borderline type that my mother was, etc. But instead of acting on it I'm backing off for a while on therapy. I don't feel like opening myself up anymore, nor do I feel like creating this kind of drama. I'm angry at my inability to make a decision. It feels good backing off, creating distance. But that behavior is what sets me back in the first place.

I am also doing some processing on my own- part of my work is to trust my own instincts. Is this what his goal was? To give me a big discernment test? (among other things)

I also go into phases where I have a bit more of a sense of humor- thinking "hey, this T is just another human being. We are both intelligent, stubborn and headstrong, but compassionate as well. Welcome to the dynamics of a relationship between two strong people!"

I have also thought about a response to the perception that I'm easily offended: Laugh and say "yep, I am" and really not care what anyone thinks. Looking around on the internet, I don't get the idea that I'm exceptionally easily offended- it seems like everyone gets pissed off at everything these days, and sometimes I do as well, but most of the time I just don't engage. But there is repressed anger and power issues, no doubt. Ha. interesting.

Oddly, if he just toned it down a bit I think we would be a great fit. And allowed me to question the process. I'm not one to just do what I'm told without question-

Yikes. Power.
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N ninnMember
Number9, hello.

Part of your post really brought some of my therapy back. Last June, after 12 months of therapy, after I went off all my meds without my psychiatrist knowing (had been on them 6 months), my T got angry with me. She told me I was "feeling sorry for myself," and she said I was "weak," and it was a month of horrible, umm, something. Well, I 'confronted' her and asked her if she was angry and we talked about it and I thought we got better, but honestly, I have such trouble talking to her, and sometimes I look at her and remember her saying I'm "feeling sorry for myself" and it is echoing in my head and then I feel why bother talking to her. Sometimes I think she was trying to provoke me, because earlier on, she told me she didn't see the side of me that I described I was like with my H, and she said, "Probably because I don't provoke you." I keep thinking, she was trying to provoke me, and honestly, it didn't work. I was calm. I listened, but I think because she seems to be more like a maternal figure to me, I would never act aggressively with my anger in her presence. I always believed in respecting my mother, no matter how she treated me. Anyway, I felt very offended; my T asked me why her saying I was feeling sorry for myself was so offensive. I couldn't even answer her question. Anyway, she's never done it again, acted like that with me.

But she does say I think negatively, that I'm a black and white thinker, that I think too much, and a few other things, that in general, feel like labels and I wonder why she is even doing it. But, I know, and well, I am. I suffer from depression and anxiety (and have been very lonely much of my life).

I don't know the answers, to your questions, but I *understand* and wanted you to know that I do.
number9number9Member
That post really helped a lot.

I find the comment about "feeling sorry for oneself" offensive as well. Most of the time that does not help. I did admit to my T that I have different kinds of depression, ranging from deep, existential despair, to garden-variety seasonal depression, to (yes) feeling sorry for myself around the holidays. The result was more compassion from my T in regards to ALL of the manifestations of the big D.

BTW, I'm a 44 year old female, and hate being labeled, being seen as week, and the whole borderline diagnosis. I have not been diagnosed with it, but have had others show up in my life with it, and I find it deeply repulsive. (oh, no, must be that shadow thing...damn!)

I would love to hear more from you, I have the same issues you mentioned. Thanks so much!!!
lamplighterlamplighterMember
Hello Number9 and welcome to the forum!

Wow I have to say I was feeling pretty outraged on your behalf while reading your post. I’m really sorry that what has been a good trusting relationship with your T has suddenly been thrown into serious doubt by what appears to me to be a very misguided and pretty much over the top attempt by your T to calculatedly provoke a reaction from you.

I suppose that as he has been open about the fact that it was indeed a deliberate ploy on his part, that might go some way to mitigating the effect on you, and maybe will let you see that he might not have actually MEANT all the things he said. (Fwiw if a T of mine said things like that and did mean them – which actually would be very hard not to believe – I would not ever be able to trust them, not in a million years, so you wouldn’t see me for dust.)

I hear you say that had he toned it down a bit his tactic may well have been useful so maybe you are more open to that kind of confrontational style therapy than me, so take what I’m saying as being based purely on my reactions had I been in your place.

I take it that you haven’t had another session yet since this one? From the way you describe your T otherwise, I wonder whether his continuing dismissing and belittling responses in this session weren’t also part of his ‘tactic’ and that next session you may well find him back to his usual self and be able to process it all with him.

Regardless of his intentions though, the way he spoke to you and the things he’s said I think were REALLY hurtful and counterproductive at best, and even if you are able to process how it made you feel with him, I think it will take you a long time to feel the same trust in him again. Wow, I’ve heard of confrontational therapy (gestaltists are known for it) but never experienced it quite on this level. The one time I had a T do the ‘mean T’ thing on me, it totally destroyed my faith in that type of therapy – made worse by the fact that the guy actually meant it, he wasn’t just trying to provoke, he actually believed he was right and had the right to put me down and jeer at me (for instance ‘oh here come the waterworks’). Remembering how that made me feel I can’t help think that your T’s comment that you are ‘easily offended’ is not only out of line but totally untrue. If someone says something hurtful where do they get off then mocking you for feeling hurt????

It sounds like your T might have gotten a bit carried away with the idea of provoking a reaction and not realized how badly it was affecting you. (I’m trying to see positives in this, my blanket reaction would be to say, get the hell out!) I also wonder why he did this? Did he explain at all why he chose this session and this point in your therapy to do the confrontational thing? Was there anything leading up to it or did this just come out of the blue? Gosh I can’t help feeling really bad thinking about it, Number9 I am so so sorry you had to have this happen.

I just hope that you go to the next session and are able to start sorting through all the stuff that this has put you through, and I REALLY hope he is willing and able to help you with it and doesn’t justify or defend himself for what he’s done.

You have all my support Number9

LL
number9number9Member
Thanks Ninn, I appreciate it!

To be honest, I'm feeling a little ill. Anger, grief, indecision, self-blame, depression, all that crap in one tight little ball.

The T tells me that he did it to get me out of my defense mode, but it feels like the same old shit again, and I suspect that it probably is just that... the same old shit again. I'm not interested in being a victim, I can't stop thinking about how I got myself into this... the people that I allow myself to trust, etc. I seem to have a gift for poor judgement, but sometimes you just can't tell.
number9number9Member
I think that I'm not going to go back for more. He got me so attached to him but now he's doing this tactics and is quite irritated at me for resisting. I'm no longer the "good" depressed patient, and he told me that I now have borderline tendencies, when for the first year or so I did not. I really think it is because I "resist" him and don't put up with all of his techniques. In other words, a PITA female client.

It's going to be painful to resist temptation to keep this going, it's not helping me at all, I'm feeling much, much worse. I was making progress, but probably not fast enough for his standards.

And if I bring this up to my T, I'm going to be called on my "black and white" thinking. I feel trapped.
scribblescribbleMember
Hi number9. I've been following this thread and really feel for what your going through. I'm sorry that you feel like you can't go back, but I totally understand why. (If that's not what you meant by your last post, oops! ignore me then.) I don't think T's should ever manipulate people this way, even if they do feel it's the best way to get a reaction. The relationship is just so delicate that I think extra care to instill trust needs to be used much much more than provoking does. I at least would appreciate a "Hey scribble, in the future I might start challenging you more in here. It'll be rough, but I'll always explain and let us process after. Is that ok?" Then those seeds of "omg, is this what she truly thinks of me?"would have a harder time taking root.

I wonder if it is worth sharing your feelings one more time though. I wouldn't push you to go back in if you would find that too overwhelmng.But what about a letter/email? Sometimes I find that's the best way for me to come off rational and in control and say what I really feel rather than getting all emotional in person, which frustrates me because people tend to devalue your opinion then.

I hope everything works out for you, and I wish you the best!
blackbirdblackbirdMember
I remember this happening with my old T- in fact, your post brought it all back to me, because the feelings, self-questioning, and all of that in your post really resonated with the extreme confusion and frustration I felt when my T would "turn on me." I would think that I was going crazy, making it up, and all kinds of shit. It really damaged my ability to trust my own perceptions, I think. That being said- could you just ask your T why he thinks this technique could *possibly* be helpful for you? What is he trying to accomplish? In my case it gave me a deeply felt, but not cognitively understood feeling of powerlessness, betrayal, and utter confusion and despair. I think that when we are avoidant, but we try really, really hard to not be avoidant, but to connect against everything else we would do if we *didn't* think so darn much- and then are met with this kind of response- it does something really bad inside of us.

What is a PITA client?

I'm so sorry for your pain. I'm really not sure why T's would do this kind of thing. Could you find out what the reasoning is behind it?

Welcome, number 9-

Beebs
number9number9Member
LL: It did come out of the blue. What makes this hard is that there has been so much good genuine contact, support, etc... that by quantity, outweighs the aggressive confrontation. I did talk to him a few days afterwards. he heard me, and agreed to tone it down, for now. But he did not promise anything, I think that he perceives it as being part of my "ultimatum giving, black and white thinking, pain in the ass female client who resists" side. His perception. His provocation.

SomeDays: I don't trust him right now, and it tears me up inside. I feel like it is in my best interests to distance myself.

Scribble: Yep, that's what makes it hard. I know that it is hard work, to look at aspects of oneself that are hard to look at. But to recreate the verbal abuse that my parents used to dish out- almost exactly the same scenario- is beyond my comprehension. I thought I was crazy. I do feel some pretty intense despair and depression right now, and that is an accurate report. Knowing that there is nobody to process this with, my ally has vanished in my eyes, has been very, very, very hard. What a waste, he could have just presented it in the way you had described. Now I feel like he could just do this again at any time, since I could not get him to promise that he would not.

I used to PM him via FB but he wants more "in the moment" contact, not "rationalizations, overintellectualization, and overoveranalysis" from me, it seems. He likes it better when I break down, I guess. Then judges me for it.

BB: yep, that's it. frustration and confusion. I am stronger than I used to be about trusting my own perceptions, so that's a good sign. I don't see why he insists that I have to "tolerate" everything he lays before me. The rational part of me knows that I DO NOT need to. The rational part of me tells me that I'll do fine back on my own. I'm just scared because at this point, I really, honestly, truly believe that the only person you really can trust is yourself. This "core belief" along with "there is no such thing as love, we all look out for our own self interests" and "you are born alone, and die alone" and "all the work we do will turn to dust in the end" were my mantras that got me into the depressed state I am in.

I'm back to square one, and my T has said that before as well... that I'm back to square one because I lose trust in him. He would tell me right now if he were here..."You mean after all the support I gave you, you are focusing on that ONE conversation? (hence the borderline tendencies label, remember, I used to be a good little "depressed girl"

I want to be strong enough to not have to be that "good patient" but remain true to myself. T says that "therapy isn't for wimps" but this is ridiculous.

I feel very, very bad. In agony, to be honest. If I can get through a few more weeks, the pain will fade, and I'll be OK, but I don't want him to convince me to stay on longer, which is what will happen if I call.

Thanks for hearing all this crap you guys, it's helping me a LOT.
S scatteredMember
Hi Number 9
I think any therapy relationship is so fragile and breaking that trust is devistating to anybody as that is the one place where we are suppose to feel safe. I am borderline and my t has often said things that have been offensive, but going back through the session again, I found that she didn't mean any harm, but it just didn't go down well with me. Even sometimes when she jokes - I take it as an insult, but afterwards know that she wouldn't deliberately hurt me, but was her tactic to see what triggers me and not. I feel threatend and out of control as soon as she says anything that I find offensive and being labelled as borderline by her took my months to work through and I still am. It feels as if, no matter what I do or say is so text book for borderline, it makes everything else void.
I would however after so much money and effort spent from your side, not to quit therapy but to push through and maybe even work through these issuse you are now finding yourself with.
Its all about the process and maybe he is trying to teach you that even in therapy you are allowed to be you and get angry and offendend and then figure out where that came from.

I might be totally wrong here. Maybe he was even having a bad day?? They are also human. Stay with him and work it with him. Trust him enough that know that he understands the process.

I feel for you with all my heartm but don't quit - fight for your safe spot again!! It will just make you stronger. Confused
number9number9Member
Megan: The challenge is differentiating between a true trigger- and righteous indignation. The latter does have value. There have been times we have had misunderstandings and I got offended where no offense was intended, but those were easy to work through, they often had to do with the specific meanings and connotations of words, and labels. We were able to have an intelligent discussion about it because of the way it was brought to my attention.


The thing that bugs me about a BPD diagnosis is that since it is so broad and vague, almost ALL of us have those tendencies in us at some point in our life. The list in the DSM seems like a laundry list of every human trait that is "unlikeable".. I'm just being brutally honest, not about you, but the diagnosis. I think that the label/diagnosis does more harm that good. Often one internalizes the "unlikeableness" of the diagnosis, or uses it as an excuse to act like someone most of us don't want to be around.

Or perhaps not. Did you find the diagnosis useful? Did it help you with self-awareness?

I noticed that I almost said "either/or"- and chose to pay attention to my often "black and white" language. So in that regard, I DO think that words ARE important, and that the speaker should take responsibility for them.

I myself have used the BPD label on difficult clients. It was convenient, and made me feel better about myself, in a self-righteous way. So this makes me want to develop a deeper understanding of myself and others that goes beyond labels. I think that part of my T's goal is to try help me deal with difficult people.

Again, but if someone crosses a legitimate line, you have to call them on it. When you don't, and "swallow the poison"- what you end up with is anger turned inwards..... DEPRESSION!

and that is my primary diagnosis, according to my T.

I'm wondering, scared, how you healed the rift between you and your T.

Thinking deeply about all your responses.
number9number9Member
Hope I didn't deviate too far from the real issue. Whether to stay or go, and whether or not I can trust the T enough to share with him everything I told you guys without him without dismissing or attacking. If I ever needed to be heard... it's now. But for the past month, my depression and despair has gotten worse, (He's the only one I confide in) and I am dreading our meetings instead of looking forward to them, not because of the content so much as I don't think I want to be feeling like this for the duration of the winter.

Maybe my mistake is having to rely so much on a T in the first place.
L lieseMember
Hi number9, nice to meet you. I'm sorry you are struggling with trust issues now. I've been there (still there I think!).

T has said that I have 3 borerline traits and I struggled and struggled with this. I remember getting upset with my daughter's soccer coaches wife and asked T, "what are we two borderlines going at it with each other?"

But the more I learn about being borderline and that it seems to be related to an attachment injury and trauma and abuse, the more compassion I feel for myself and others. The injury might have been when a person was very young but then it would and could have really terrible life-long consequences.

I'm like you, in that I've avoided relationships instead of engaging and so also took myself off the borderline list because I didn't have the history of volatile relationships. But the thing is, is that it's all on a spectrum. Just throwing this out but you could have just some borderline traits.

And the thing about the volatile relationships is that I *think* it's the borderline's anger that causes the volatility. BUT, if you are I are skipping out when we feel the slightest hint of anger, or better yet, just not engaging at all so as not to feel that anger, who's to say it's not coming from the same place as the next person with the volatile relationships. Maybe you and I learned how to avoid the volatility better.

I don't want to let your T off the hook for what he did. It sounds like it really upset you. But maybe this is part of your MO, to run when you get angry. Maybe the anger is something you have to learn how to handle and manage.

Since things have been so good between you and he, what about giving it a shot. Really open up to him and let him know how upset and shook up you felt.

Just throwing that out and I'm sorry you are feeling so bad these days.

xoxo
Liese
B bltMember
quote:
BUT, if you are I are skipping out when we feel the slightest hint of anger, or better yet, just not engaging at all so as not to feel that anger, who's to say it's not coming from the same place as the next person with the volatile relationships. Maybe you and I learned how to avoid the volatility better.


Wow, that describes me really well. I think I can actually own that I am a little bit borderline. It doesn't have to be the be all end all of what I am. I would think of it more like an impression on my true personality made by much of the stuff that happened with my mom.
blackbirdblackbirdMember
**everyone** has borderline traits. In my opinion, it is a diagnoses with little meaning, that has taken on a negative connotation, and should be removed for that reason. (but what do I know?) Big Grin

Everyone has dislikable traits too. It's just realizing that it is not the sum total of who we are. Easier said than done when we've been wounded and therapized also, to the point of thinking of ourselves as a conglomeration of different symptoms, rather than a thinking, struggling, deciding human person. I think that if you are able to work this through with him, you will have accomplished something amazing- my one caveat, is that that I have no idea if he is a good therapist or not. Is he arrogant? Does he admit mistakes, humbly? does he apologize ever?
I'd just be open and honest with him about how it makes you feel, tell him everything that you told us on here. What do you have to lose, since you are thinking of withdrawing from him anyway? You can always hit the bricks if you lay it all out there and get a terrible response.. I know the confusion though. I used to feel like if I scheduled another session, my T would just draw me back into his evil web. Roll Eyes Trust issues? Just a little.

Big hugs, Smiler I hope you are feeling better. Lots of cups of hot tea, okay?

BB
number9number9Member
You guys rock. I really appreciate all your comments. ALL of them.

I have expressed how much it hurt, but he did not really acknowledge it. He was certain I would come back, because I let myself get too attached.

Ah, the layers. I don't like intense volatile relationships like this. I feel like I just got pushed into one, and part of me just doesn't want to get pulled into all this drama. I came in because I felt lonely and disconnected. Is this what one has to go through to connect with someone?

I'll pass.
S scatteredMember
Hi number 9
No offence taken, I think we all struggle with the whole BPD / black and white thinking thing. This is what my t told me and I quote "The only value of reading about Borderline personality is to support your sense of suffering, it should never be about blame, because no-one has control over how their personality is wired. Borderline personality usually results after multiple childhood traumas". But yet I re-think every thought to see if it wasn't because of this whole BPD. I'm rather new to this and I don't understand black and white thinking - all bad or all good - surely I have inbetween thinking too??? I'm too scared to really discuss this with my t and I try to deal with it on my own. I did ask her however about the whole creating false memory issue and she just said - "I think that's another cruel label created by ignorant people". So I left it at that,as I trust that she understands the process. She told me that the whole therapy thing is in the experience and I am beginning to understand what she means. I feel we haven't gone anywhere during therapy time, as most of it I spend in silence, but yet if I do some searching, there are things that have changed and one of them is managing my anger - I actually don't really get angry so often anymore and I just cope with it better.

It's easy to show sadness or happiness towards my t, but anger provokes the fear of being rejected or abandoned by her. She has told me numerous times, that it's ok to be angry towards her because she will still be there. She won't push me away, so I don't have to pull away first. There is no such thing as a perfect person or even a perfect t, they can make mistakes too.

So I urge you again to work through this, don't give up and make it more complicated by adding it to your list of 'hurts'. Repairing our relationships with other people - that is the goal of therapy after all, isn't it? Why not do it then in a safe environment and if it really doesn't work out, you know you tried.
number9number9Member
Wow, if what my T is doing is considered a "safe" environment, I think I'll just go back to my solitary ways.

He crossed a line with me this time, I think that I need to hold my boundary there. It sounds like the danger of some therapy is that it is NOT the real world, where boundaries do need to be held and respected. If someone, therapist or no, acts like a jerk, than guess what... he may just be a jerk. I think it is entirely appropriate not to trust this person. He thinks he may do it again, he told me that.

Thanks for all the input, it hurts, but I have to decide and hold to it! That too, is growth.
number9number9Member
I also refuse to get drawn into a drama, where none existed before. Being desperate to see him, calling him, manipulating him, or throwing a a tantrum are what I think of when I think of borderline behavior, and it feels like he is trying to create that scenario by working so hard to get close to me and then pulling the crap that he did. I just don't want to play along! It seems silly! Forgive me, but the center of the onion is beginning to appear.
S scatteredMember
You do have the right to stand up and do what you believe is good for you. Look after yourself first and if you can't go back, then don't. Nobody deserves to get hurt...
Tell him what you feel, even in an email, I'm sure that will make you feel better (after you have ended the therapy)

Good luck and I hope that if you continue with therapy with somebody else, that it will be the right one for you. BIG HUGS
L lieseMember
quote:

Ah, the layers. I don't like intense volatile relationships like this. I feel like I just got pushed into one, and part of me just doesn't want to get pulled into all this drama. I came in because I felt lonely and disconnected. Is this what one has to go through to connect with someone?


Oh, number9, I relate to that so well. I went to therapy because I felt lonely too and I was PISSED when my last T started jiggling around with my emotions. I was *content* to keep them locked up in the box where I put them, thank you very much.

It has been excruciatingly painful at times to start to feel these emotions that I buried a long time ago. But I'm really starting to feel better and *think* it was all worth it. I'll let you know next week. LOL!

It was and it has been a scary ride at times. Just make sure your T will be there to give you the support you need.

xoxo

Good luck,

Liese
blackbirdblackbirdMember
In the end you can only do what you think is the best thing for you with the information that you possess right now...not banking on some information you might get in the future if you stick with it. So yeah- there is huge potential for growth in walking away, too. Unless this is a pattern that happens to you in all or most of your realtionships- in that case, it would make sense to stick it out, because by "safe" therapy doesn't mean you will actually not get hurt- (the contrary, I assure you) but that you are *free* to behave however you want to in that room and in that relationship (within reasonable guidelines, of course) without the fear of destroying the relationship because of "bad behavior." It's "safe" because nothing will happen if you screw up- you won't get divorced, fired, physically hurt, mess your kids up, wreck an important relationship, etc.) In no other relationship, would the kind of freedom that you have to be, to discover yourself, consistently exist, -because other relationships are give and take, compromise and hard work. In this context of therapy, you are (with a good therapist who doesn't make too many mistakes) -able to get to know who you really are. But it's not leading anywhere- except out the door. So it is *for you* and only *for you.* Good T's realize this, and that's why they get paid. But it *hurts.* and it doesn't make sense to us emotionally. And you can talk about all of that in there, too. Full of complicated paradoxes, therapy. Maybe your T wants you to have the freedom to say *whatever* comes into your mind when he throws these accusations at you? You will discover things that way. Learn a new way, too, maybe. All kind of possibilities, because it's up to you. He gives you his experience, knowledge expertise, and care- and his focus trained entirely and exclusively on you for one hour a week- you give him your commitment to doing the work, and a large chunk of your paycheck. And it can help. and there are times when it can't help. And there are times when a person gets a really bad T (look for the thread on "red flags" in here somewhere..I don't know how to link to posts...) and then, they can end up more messed up than before they began...and have to continue to find a way to fix it. I have no idea if your T is one of those, who could use a client in subtle ways to get his own emotional needs met. They do exist. I currently going through one of my anti-therapy mood swings. But other times I think it's a really useful tool. But there are other ways to heal, and other people who can help, and so on.

Just a bunch of rambly thoughts, you may find some useful. If not, no worries. Good luck...let us know what you decide. Smiler
number9number9Member
Thanks Blackbird!

I still have not contacted him. Much of it has to do with the fact that I have final exams coming up, and I already feel a bit depressed about the holidays. His unpredictable behavior often has me feeling worse (of course he would say that it's my reaction, not his problem)and I'm just not up for that right now. Some of it is my reaction, yes, but I think he needs to take some responsibility for his own words as well.

Funny, during the holidays, and when it's dark outside, this is the time when I appreciate the extra support. Like you said, this may be a new period of growth for me. Can I handle it on my own? I think so. Some days it may suck, but oh well.

He had told me at the beginning that a "red flag" that he noted was the fact that I wanted to get used to being alone and just not bothering with connections. From my standpoint, this does seem like the most practical and productive thing I can do. I spend most of my time alone, but now it is sinking in... I really am alone, and I can be OK with that!

Oh crap. The flip side. My T just closed on a house and is moving. I know he's busy and I don't want to "bug" him now. I also sense his frustration with me lately, and us both gradually "pulling away" from each other. So yeah, this would be a pattern for me. Just to let some relationships go. I admit. But I don't like intensity and drama or family dynamics, and prefer solitude (which is why I dislike being associated with BPD in any way... I'm not clingy. Nor do I want to be pushed into that kind of dependency, which is what I saw happening with my T. It gave him WAAAAY to much power over me, and I don't like that at all.

OK, then... Roll Eyes
number9number9Member
Crap, I'm in agony.

This T was the only contact I had.

I am still trying to process the way that that meeting went. Then I came across this in the blog section:

quote:
i thought this was a good post. but i would like to hear what you have to say about the insiduous kind of humiliation that undermines a persons sense of validity, but is subltle enough to easily deny, furthering the sense that the one is crazy, incompetent, over reactive, and just plain out of touch with things. the kind that doesnt say 'its your fault i went off like that', but rather 'youre imaginning things, no one is against you'. or 'if youd just be a little more *** '

October 31, 2006 7:58 PM

Therapy Doc said...
Oh, I have SO much to say about this, and will have to devote an entire post to the "schizophrenogenic" family.

Making someone feel crazy isn't always intentional, it can be a coward's way of fighting, once called passive aggression, or even a way to attack someone else in the family.

But it does what it does, exactly as you say, undermine's one's sense of reality. When the victim of mixed messages (or in this case perverted communication) is a child, that child may become catatonic, not knowing which way to behave, locked in a double bind. He will look and act schizophrenic, bizarre.

I don't want this to get too complicated right now. But if your significant other is doing this, you have the right and maybe even obligation to look him in the eye and say, "You're so full of ..."

No, don't do it that way. You'd look him in the eye and say that you are quite sure he is intentionally undermining your integrity. You and I know that he's doing it to put you down, to bring himself up. But you'll have to find a way to communicate this that improves the situation, rather than flames conflict.

We'll talk. (Meaning I will write more).

Thanks for your thoughts. It's incredible stuff we're talking about here, the blood and guts of family therapy.

Oh, by the way. We now know that this interactional system is not the cause of schizophrenia. Yet it does invalidate and take away from a cogent sense of reality and self
quote:


WTF just happened and why? I can't make sense of this, nor figure out why anyone would want to confront someone in this manner. I did nothing to provoke this. Now I just feel like I did something wrong, that if I try to relate how I feel now he won't hear me. I honestly feel like any effort to tell him how I feel will be futile.

The distancing part IS agonizing, I don't want to do this again. From what I hear, lots of therapists do this crap. I'm not interested, I was better off before.

But perhaps I should talk to someone to wean me off the whole thing. It is hard.

Thanks for being here during all this. I'm not playing games with my T. I just feel sickened and don't any part of him anymore. I feel sick.

Sorry if it sounds melodramatic. I can do the stoic thing only so much. Nobody else knows about this, nor will they.
forgetmenotforgetmenotMember
number9 I'm so sorry to hear about what you went through with this T.

With my borderline tendencies. I am finding it hard to make out what I would feel about this and whether my perspective is right or wrong, but...to me what he did was a big no no. He seems somewhat self-involved. But I'm uncertain obviously..

I don't have much to say as my therapy experience has only been 6 months. I feel I should shush now though and just say, um, think twice I guess. Did he really say something about bullshit? And used those words? That is awful...If my T did that, I would become very borderline and dispute her. I'm not very mature with things like this because of my trauma. I can totally understand why you are distanced now...

Well, hugs to you (())). I know I'm not of much use with what I'm saying, but you have my support. xx
number9number9Member
Thanks Forgetmenot!

This is something I have been pondering today, what timing!

Yes, he did say bullshit. Yes, he was aggressive. And I called him on it. Is that considered "Borderline"? Isn't this what a "normal" person would do? (I have to ask, I have to question, I'm not going to lose myself in this confusing mess of a diagnosis!) I felt certain of my own instincts. But this creates a double bind. Damned if I express anger, damned if I doubt my own perspective, and I feel like I'm in a trap.. sinking further into the diagnosis, no matter what my response! What a slippery slope! I refuse to give him the satisfaction of rage or inappropriate behavior. If he does it again, I told him I would simply say "lets come back to this when we can both talk to each other in a respectful and constructive manner". It may feel weird to say that, I may feel intense emotion as I say it, but say it I will. (Heh- one good thing about phone contact!) And I will never hang up on him- put the nail in the coffin, so to speak!

I don't identify with any particular diagnosis, nor was I given one, but told that I have a few tendencies- black and white thinking and fear or criticism and rejection. (and that puts you into the unfortunate position of having to second-guess yourself when you need to draw a boundary- as if doing so confirms the diagnosis.) I acted on what I thought was the right thing to do, based on my own boundaries.

That is not to say that I have not been doing more self-reflection. But I take criticism better from those who don't beat me over the head with it, and can also admit that they have shortcomings as well.

I want it to work out, I really do. The whole encounter could be a learning experience of blacks and grays and whites, and I feel like I'm not going to lose myself in a diagnosis. But I can just see myself later- telling myself how naive and stupid I was to trust this guy... What is my lesson here?

But I admit I am a little concerned.. do T's try to "condition" their BPD clients to address every emotion on the continuum from irritation to rage.. as a "trigger"? Do patients get lost in the identity of the diagnosis? Is it ok to have the experience of good, clean, justified anger? (I didn't feel like i was going to veer out of control) I already feel like I internalize the emotion of anger.

I mean no offense by any of this, but I am trying to make sense of it all.

Thanks for the support, and hugs to you as well!
forgetmenotforgetmenotMember
Hey number9!

About Borderline. I'm neither diagnosed, but how I deal with relationships in general is quite intensely black and white. Boundaries in friendships are often confusing for me because when I (ever) get close to someone for those moments, I feel I LOVE them to death and then there's simply a random breaking off for no reason. I don't say that I am full borderline either. I'd be interested to see whether I'd be diagnosed as BPD, but I certainly don't want the label to justify all my actions as faulty perspectives because in reality, as you said, is it borderline? To be angry at such a cause? I don't think that is, no. I think most people in they're minds would find what happened to you shocking. You go to therapy to get support, and I assume, to gently be supported. Putting a client in the deep end with they're emotions, I feel, is very dangerous, especially if you or any one of us has been through trauma that may be triggering.

I think BB had a good point too, about testing boundaries was it? Yes, it opens you up to how you'd react but if he did it again, I would be very, very doubtful of his interactions. Even though, I already would be.

Here's a small example in my situation. I think my T was testing my reactions by glancing out the window momentarily. Of course I noticed it. I pulled her up on it, said that doing that made me feel as if I was not being listened to which triggered all sorts of things. That I should shut up, that my opinion was worthless, that she didn't care. She did it a second time. I pulled her up on it again. She hasn't done it since and I would assume that if a T is aware of the sensitivities of they're patients, they would be extremely mindful of they're interactions and how they handle therapy sessions.

I think I internalize a lot of anger too. Sorry about not helping with that question. I simply assume borderline qualities and I think my T assumes them too, but we don't talk about labels. But that is an interesting question all the same. I internalize my anger and avoid it if necessary, which means avoiding close friendships too unfortunately. I'm not sure how I'll get past that.

I assume you've told your T how it made you feel. I didn't read the entire replies on the thread..If he perhaps admitted that he was a little sorry for going a bit too far and promised that he would not do it again on account of how you reacted, you could possibly learn to trust him more. Actually, I read someone's story on here about a T who really screwed up in they're reaction because the T countertransfered bad, but apologized to her client and explained herself. The trust built up better because the T was willing to own up to her own wrongdoings. Did yours? Or did he at least compromise a little?

Good luck to you and ((hugs)). It's especially hard when were sensitive. Lest my T do something small and to the more balanced person it's not so bad. To a lot of us, it's an emotional/mental mountain to climb up and over!
number9number9Member
That really helped a lot!

I am so glad to hear that you pulled you therapist up and made those requests. It was done well, I think. And she hasn't done it since. I hope I don't have to do it again but I will.

In regards to this anger/boundary thing, yeah, I know, there's a lot to all of this...
I have been reading about this, anything I can get my hands on. Stumbled on DBT and decided NO WAY would I go there.(no offense to those who this works for, but it's not for me, I don't like CBT either) Unless I wanted to be externally motivated to regulate my emotions so much that it ended up exacerbating the problem- not being able to trust and act on one's emotions in an appropriate way. That means we need to be able to honor our own boundaries as well. Especially for those of us with repressed anger. I wouldn't want that to be taken from me, it already was as a child!! Resistance is futile, indeed!

In regards to my T, I may have to call him on it again. It may be good practice to just say "hey, let's come back to this when we can both talk constructively". What a cool option.

I have a question, I know this thread is getting long. But I hear many of you talk about how painful therapy is, how it plays with the emotions, makes us angry, etc. Was my experience a taste of that? Is it normal? Is it going to be that aggressive, where even a "normal" person would go into fight or flight mode? What are the boundaries you guys draw? Does therapy involve 20 minutes of the T addressing a litany of character flaws? WHat kinds of things are discussed? (I don't need to know absolute details) I'm afraid I truly don't know what to expect!

I still think that BPD should stand for Bullshit Psychiatric Diagnosis. I was cracking up- found a forum- a guy listing his faults, which were basically the same as BPD, but he was diagnosed with Narcissitic personality disorder, probably because he's male! I'm glad I laughed... so many traits show up all over the DSM..fear of rejection shows up in a bunch of personality disorders and several mood disorders.. EVERYONE needs therapy!

I also noticed how many people on FB and blogs post "jerky" things- something caught my eye about how common sense is such a rare commodity- but I'm sure the poster considered herself to be one of the rare few with common sense...

...and a blog with 2 psychologists going at it with each other, calling each other pompous..launching into long-winded diatribes.. and the blog was about BPD! I am laughing so hard, I needed it sooo bad! Smiler

And then I come here to find the people that have problems with emotional dysregulation treating each other with kindness and respect.

Oh, the irony. The things that I'm noticing lately, about myself and the human race. Always makes me laugh.

I'm glad you don't talk about labels. I'm going to pick up a book and starting reading about the defense mechanisms, in particular, splitting, because I have a hard time even wrapping my head around that one intellectually let alone emotionally. To me, this is more useful information to work with that the DSM lists. Those just feel perjoritive to me.I am going to keep questioning myself.

And I brought that up with my T. I told him what my response would be if he got aggressive again- ... "I'm not a submissive type, and that is not a character flaw. I will always, always (Black and White be damned!) question authority, you, and myself. If you remain open-minded and humble during this process, then I believe I can too."
forgetmenotforgetmenotMember
quote:
I also noticed how many people on FB and blogs post "jerky" things- something caught my eye about how common sense is such a rare commodity- but I'm sure the poster considered herself to be one of the rare few with common sense...


Logic. Common sense. The due respect for each other, a lot of the human race does lack that. I question personality disorders a lot too because integrated with the DSM is the natural way of emotions when we are hurt or angered by things in life, and who isn't? It's said that a personality disorder is simply the loss of self. I agree to a wide extent but...then I get very philosophical about it and ask 'what is self? is self to be defined one way and one way that sticks? Isn't self malleable?'. Also though, I've been surrounded by A LOT of people who get angry easily, have issues, all this stuff. 95% of people need therapy in my opinion. But I'm starting to think that balance in emotional judgement is hard to find in someone. I find it very annoying how selfish people can be and not think of others. I seem to find that flaw in a lot of people..

I'm really unsure as to what to make of personality disorders in general. I do believe the label can help in finding various therapies to assist with certain problems but that's probably as far as it stems for me. They do exist for me, but my view of PD is not one followed by the media or the movies at all. At the end of the day a loss of self or discontentment is a result of emotionally arrested development in which, to me, the person rears off to find solace and gain in external attributes to avoid emotion. I know of one woman who does it well and does even better to be grossly indenial. It's sad but whats worse is that she finds ways to reassure herself that she is the victim in life and also makes sure she routes every cause so that she denies her emotional self.

But the common sense thing, even intellectuals who have written great books say that there are only a handful of people in the world that probably actually do REALLY think in the way that we all need to think. To know thyself. That sort of thing. I really don't know many people who challenge themselves or even question themselves properly. They just sort of go about life idly by it seems.

The problem actually, that I have with my T is that every time I get angry at bad causes, she always seems to link it up to my abuse in childhood. And I understand that the magnitude of my anger (for instance, my very strong convictions on correct parenting) does stem from unresolved stuff inside but also a compassionate human being with emotion would hold convictions on mistreatment and even get emotional with it.

You should keep questioning yourself. Smiler I do it all the time. Sometimes I feel I get too intense with it and find that the issues I have is actually to do with obsessively questioning or thinking about one particular thing and that if I let go, I loosen up about the supposed attribute that is paining me. But then I'm generally confused as to what I feel and what I don't feel, partly because of all those questions.

Hum, I just thought, personality, how does it exist? The only understanding of personality is emotional and I did say to T once that I don't understand the concept of 'finding yourself' because to me, everyone in Self is the same as in, basically who we are. If we all worked on our emotional development, how we handle life would be content in the same way. I.e. we'd be reasonable/compassionate/thoughtful etc. When two people meet on the street and say 'we have a lot in common', what does that mean? In interests? Convictions? Purpose? Emotion?

Though the questioning has helped I think. I think. :P. Haha. Now I'm confused. I'm sorry, I think I've been talking rubbish here. It's my way of working things out. You've got me going! Ha! Smiler
H hopefulMember
Forgetmenot,
I don't see any rubbish here...just self-awareness which is a good thing IMO even if we do tend to go in circles. I think we're too hard on ourselves...really! I do mean "we" because I believe that we on this forum most often take on others' feelings that is really not ours to take on. I am one of those who doesn't like conflict but "re-learning" to question others as I can be aware of what is happening in the moment. I liked your post as it gave me something to think about...although I am not sure if I went off on my own thinking but I do think self-awareness is most important in order to implement changes. Hope that wasn't too much rambling.
Hopeful

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