Wow, I feel like I am frequently exactly where you are on this topic. For me, I feel like my shame has a protective quality. It keeps me from allowing behaviors that I fear will cause rejection and abandonment. For example, the shame over my paternal transference with T generated self-abuse which helped to mitigate/regulate my neediness from expressing itself. The actual feeling was still there, but my shame over it protected me from bringing it completely to fruition.

Also, harboring shame (and guilt and loathing) against myself when I am "sure" of being hurt by others helps to lessen the blow. I liken it to being back in school. I almost always got very high marks, but just so an unexpected low grade did not ambush my self-worth, I would come out of every test convinced I had blown it. I would assume I barely passed and when the grade came back better than expected, I could be relieved. Assuming I'm going to get a C and getting a B+ is so much easier than assuming I'm going to get an A and not "living up" to it.

So shaming myself about things I believe others should and will judge me on makes their ultimate reaction safer, no matter what it is. If they do judge me to the extent I have already done so (very rare, because I set my standards so exceedingly high), I can say, "Well, of course they feel that way. You are horrible and disgusting" for thinking/feeling/acting that way. If they are mildly disappointed (occasional) or didn't even consider it as something to be evaluated (most often), then I can say, "What a relief! I did better than I thought," (read: I AM better than I thought). However, if I were to evaluate my thoughts/feelings/behaviors as intrinsically acceptable and then someone judged them or rejected me, I would be devastated, devalue myself and completely withdraw from them as unworthy.

Sometimes, shame (and again, related feelings of guilt, self-loathing) are the only way I can manage to keep up relationships with certain people. Since my family is full of those people and I can't just not be in relationship with them, shame is very functional for me. But, it's such a prison, and I too understand my need for liberation. It is not only unfair to me, but I have actually AVOIDED what I intended to protect (having actual relationships with others). I understand all this...but still don't know how to break it.

Hi yakusoku ~ (btw, welcome to the forums!) I can so relate to much of what you have written, and I’m so sorry you are battling shame too. It is an awful prison.

Just after I posted, I was thinking… is it possible for me to feel my own feelings and not feel shame and feel “in control,” like in a healthy way? To not lose that sense of control of me and my life and what happens? To control what others do to me, like in terms of preventing abuse, and to also control me, so that other’s don’t hurt me.

I feel shame about things that shouldn’t lead to others rejecting me, and things that maybe should – or at least things I do or have done that are not helpful towards building good healthy relationships.


For me, guilt about things I do wrong is a very different experience. Guilt helps me change and be me, only better – to others and myself. Guilt isn’t easy for me, but it doesn’t make me feel like I have to hide, but actually approach people and life differently – and it draws me to grace and kindness for myself and others. Shame just makes me hide parts of me, and I end up doing more messed up things… and then I get much more sucked into the shame and scared people will leave and then they do and then I feel more shame…
vicious cycle.

Hmm… and ya know, as I think about it now, I think I am less kind to not only myself, but others as when I feel ashamed. Because I am so focused on protecting me… And I usually end up more hurt. Shame it doesn’t really actually help reach the goals I have to have good healthy relationships, with my own self and others.

There has got to be ways to get a little more freedom from this. I wonder, what would living with less shame mean and look like for me? I don’t even know. sigh.

Since shame makes me hide, I think the first step for me is talking about it, bringing into the light... I have no idea what to do with any of it... ugh, and I am so scared to even tell my T how deep this is for me, or the connection it has to feeling in control. I feel ashamed of my shame! grr.

Wow, all of what you said just resonated with me...but especially the part about what it would "look like." My T actually once asked me that exact question and I said, "Honestly, I can't even imagine being free of it enough to tell you." He said it was a very good, and honest, answer. I think struggling with shame is more common than you might imagine and I'd be your T probably has a bit of a clue on it without you already having expressed it (mine did). Sometimes, I feel so ashamed about my shame, because I think revealing it to T is forcing him to validate me, which increases my shame. I have almost ordered him at times to not be responsive/nice to that side of me, because it only makes me feel more shame and disgust for myself. It's such a trap! I would hazard a guess that identifying specific situations or thoughts that stir up this powerful feeling might be helpful. For example, identifying my shame concerning my neediness gave T an opportunity to expose the lie I believe that needing is inherently bad and burdensome to others. He asked me if my daughter needing me was bad and burdensome, or several other people in my life. I think I said, "Of course not, but I'm different!" I knew it was ridiculous to think I was an exception, but he accepted that I truly feel that way, even when it makes no sense. At the very least, I felt my shame was understood and we have a starting point to work from...

Yakosuko ~ I have told my T, "stop being kind!" She smiles and says "sorry. It's true." I can relate to the idea that it's like I do emotionally hold myself to a different standard than everyone else, even though intellectually I know it is absurd. And it is a good place to start...

some more thinking and processing through shame:

I just read something about shame being an interalization of anger and something else saying shame is a defence mechanism to prevent from feeling anger, the need for contact with others, and vulnerability... hmm...

it makes sense to me on an emotional level that when I feel more shame, it's harder to feel anger. It makes sense on an intellectual and emotional level that shame is anger turned in - as my inner self critic feeds my shame. I get so harsh with myself.

when my T was kind last week, when i let it sink in at all for a moment that maybe what is said might be right, or at least maybe what others have said (abusers and my family) isn't the whole truth of *who* I am as a person... I felt anger... I felt anger at them, at me, at my T... for a flash of a second... then it was gone... and I was back to desperately wanting to hide and being even more confused why I felt that anger...

especially at my T. I felt almost like threatened or something... somehow by her kindness. Something I needed to defend against...

quote:

I just read something about shame being an interalization of anger and something else saying shame is a defence mechanism to prevent from feeling anger, the need for contact with others, and vulnerability... hmm...

Wow, that makes a TON of sense. My T theorizes that a heavily dissociate anger (and some other things, but especially anger). I am pretty much only capable of directing it inwardly and there is a part of me that I have very little influence over who spends a good portion of my worst days berating me and suggesting ways I can punish myself to make up for being so needy and disgusting.

Other than irritation/frustration (like dealing with my toddler throwing a fit), I can't really get angry at others. It's to the point where T asked me to identify a memory of being angry at anyone during my childhood and I literally could not. The closest I could come was either pride at myself for responding to a hurtful situation well (being better than the person who was emotionally attacking me by accepting that abuse, sacrificing even more, etc.), being heavily ashamed of myself for letting it get to me at all or worse, internalizing those attacks as "true" and deserved.

Yakusoku ~
I internalize a lot of anger and take it out by mentally beating up myself (and other ways too). It’s really rough. I’m beginning to experience some freedom from it, and I hope it gets better for you too. It’s one of the worst things about shame for me, I end up emotionally abusing myself in a way…

I'm so sorry you feel you are disgusting. But the truth is, you are not - at least you are no more disgusting than me. I can so relate, you are so not alone in this battle.

~jane

Update…

Something happened a couple of weeks ago that was very triggering and wrong. I went to a hospital after for medical care, and they treated me horribly. I left stunned, shocked, horrified… I went back to that hospital a couple of days ago to get the records. I just wanted to understand better. I got stuck in the system and ended up going over to the hospital administration office, trying to hold back my tears of shame. On some level, I think I blamed me for the hospitals crappy treatment of me, and figured I deserved it… I told the secretary I was running into problems getting my record. She was very kind and pulled me into a director’s office. I don’t know why, but she stayed late to help me get the records. I told her it was important, I needed to know what medications I was given. I hadn’t been told… (and that wasn’t the worst thing that the hospital did). She looked concerned as I said this and looked through the records herself. I hadn’t told her yet that the hospital treated me badly… but she immediately began to tell, from the hospital’s own records, that something was wrong. She told me the medications I was given and the tears started to come. She asked what happened and between what little I could say and what she could tell form the records, she began to get very concerned. She has apologized for what happened, verbally and in writing. A full on straight apology. She even wrote the staff was wrong and she wants to do everything she can, as the clinical manager, to make sure the “awful treatment” (her words) I had never happens to anyone again. She doesn’t even yet know why I came to the ER, just that they responded very terribly.

What happened before I went to the hospital, and then what happened in the ER, has triggered memories and a lot of old stuff. I have been sorting through to step by step and doing pretty ok-ish… sorta… at least I was doing better with it all until this hospital administrator has put in writing that they were wrong and she was “so sorry.”

Yeah, she probably is trying to assure me so that I don't sue or something to protect the hospital - but at the same time, she is so darn clear. She states bluntly the hospital staff was wrong and she is sorry and she even wrote an email stating she is going to the hospital president to tell him what happened and they have put the ER doctor involved on leave immediately - like as in the day after she read the records of what happened - and they are investigating to see "who all was involved" and will "hold them fully responsible." I am very surprised, but she really took this very seriously.

She has essentially validated that the bad treatment I had at the hospital was not only bad, but flat out wrong.

And not my fault.

I find myself overwhelmed with grief after her apology. The flashbacks are worse. After the validation, after the apology that I can’t refuse. It wasn’t my fault they treated me like they did, and it was not only undeserved, it was wrong… and even the hospital is saying they were wrong… (really, it is baffling that they have admitted they were so wrong).

But I can’t deny that it wasn’t my fault.

The shame, the self blame, for how hospital ER staff treated me badly has been proven to be wrong, and I am now fighting deep grief and flashbacks of a traumatic event from two years ago. Something I do blame myself for on some level…

I am struck by how much my shame, my self hate, it has been protecting me from feeling everything I am feeling now.

((((((((((((((jane)))))))))))))

So sorry. And thanks for being so reassuring to me while you're dealing with this. It's most definitely not your fault and I'm glad that someone on the staff took the chance to validate it. I had some horrible urgent care/ER treatment in 2009. It was such a nightmare and I never had resolution on it. In fact, my insurance tried to deny paying for the ER visit and I had to relive the whole ordeal in writing to prove the visit was warranted. It's so humiliating and draws on that helplessness of childhood to be treated that way by someone who has the power to meet your needs, even as an adult. I hope you continue to remind yourself that it was not your fault and it's not OK for others to treat you poorly as "natural" as it might feel!

It's been validation I didn't want... ugh... yet I am glad it was validated, but I'm a mess now... The tears are endless. What is wrong with me that I am so backwards about this?

Yakusoku ~ I'm so sorry you went through that. It's just not right to be retraumatized like that. (((hugs)))

~jane

argh.

I dropped something really important this morning and it broke and now... I am so upset with myself... I just dropped something! and yet I am struggling to not barrage myself with insults.

this sucks. I am my own worst abuser.

(((((((Jane)))))))

thank you butterfly

*edited this post after putting it up*

I went and met with the hospital administrator today. She went through the records with me. She was "horrified" by what she read. She called another office. She said to them, "this is illegal what we have done. We have to make this right."

She then asked if I would go with her talk to a few other offices with her. I did. We spoke with the president and other higher ups with the hospital administration. I recorded the whole thing and just listened to it - bewildered.

What they did was just wrong, not criminal... I dunno...

She said, "our staff labled you as crazy, when they should have been the first to help you."

Here I have been telling MYSELF they did what they did because I deserved it. I was wrong. I have a hospital risk manager telling me it was wrong for anyone to label me that. The mistake was theirs, not mine. She is saying it at the cost of admitting serious wrong doing. She is so adamnt that not only was it not may fault, but theirs, to the point of risking serious action against them.

She promised me they would do everything to make sure it didn't happen again. She said the system broke down, and "we failed you."

Sort of flys in the face of all the self blame I have been dumping on myself.

What happened was triggering of memories of a much worse thing that happened in the past. All I am thinking right now is... where was this kind of kindness when I really needed it? Back then? Where was someone to tell me, you are not disgusting and this is not your fault? When I tried to tell of someone who was actually hurting me criminally, and no one did anything until so much damage had been done, no one could deny anything.

And now, this *relatively* light thing happens where power was abused and those that should have helped, didn't... (only relatively light in comparison to what happened before). But here, in this recent error by this hospital, this entire hospital system is stepping up and taking full responsibility beyond what anyone would ever expect. They are going above and beyond to make it right.

And it hurts.

Why couldn't someone have just heard me a listened before when the really awful criminal thing happened to me? Where was anyone then? I don't need this now, I needed it then!

I am mad. I am furious at... I don't know what.

I want to hate me, when it is so clear, I did nothing wrong.

The hospital is paying all the bills, and even buying me a new bracelet that they lost. I didn't even ask for it and I told them they didn't have to do that. (yes, I really told them that.) But they said no, "let us do this for you."

I said, "well... ok..."

Now all I think is, WHAT THE HECK? IS THIS THE TWILIGHT ZONE?!

I should not hurt when people are kind. My T called tonight and asked how meeting with the hospital went. I hear her soft kind voice and my body hurt, badly. At first, I couldn't speak any words to her. I couldn't take in any more kindness. She just stayed on the phone with me for a moment while I tried to stop the tears and spit out the words "It went bewilderingly well. I don't feel so good now though."

She told me to try and hold me and be kind to me.

I want to hate me and not accept this kindness that makes me realize this is possible. I don't want to accept that. I really want to feel like it is my fault again. This kind of help and kindness and protection didn't happen when I most needed it and THAT is what is horrible, and it really isn't my fault, even when I desperately want to blame myself.

(((((((((((jane))))))))))))

I'm so glad they treated you with the respect you deserve and so sorry you were taught not to expect or accept kindness. I can really relate to you on that. It is actually physically painful to me when people are kind. It makes me feel so much emptiness and loss. It's like receiving it now touches that dark space and you are able to see how deep and wide it is for a moment. I'm so sorry you're hurting!!! But, I sense it will be a healing experience in the long run.

Thanks Yaku! yeah, it's been hard... but it got easier... and I had to ask the hospital for more time to get back to them on all of it. just too much all at once in my life. They have been continually kind...

the next round of the battle between me and shame:

My T wants me to talk... about an assault that happen a little while ago, as an adult... (She is not pressuring me, just suggesting, for when I am "ready.")

I don’t want to ever talk about it.

But I need to talk about it. It keeps coming up, I keep being triggered, and I need to face it, process it - at least so that if it comes up again, maybe I can get through being triggered better. At least I think I need to talk... somehow... Then I feel like I *want* to talk about it. I want to take my voice back! I don't want to hid in shame!

and then I feel bad that I want to talk about what happened...

I keep ending up more shut down and I’m more silent than ever.

ugh. shame strikes again. I want out of this circle!

any ideas? anyone else dread talking of trauma and then think maybe they do want to talk of it, and then feel bad about that? I know logically I shouldn't feel bad, and most of the time, I'm just speechless trying to talk. Not talking feels like it it making it a bigger thing in my life and harder to let go of and get past...

~ jane

The good thing, I think, is that I was able to tell my T the above, just today. She called to check in about something, and I asked if I could ask something - and I told her the same thing I wrote above. I also told her about how I can say the first sentence or two of what happened, then "I just can't say more and I hate that about me and feel like I'm hopeless or disgusting or wasting people's time, wasting your time for trying. Am I?"

She said "no, not at all."

My T even said she felt sad about how much I judge myself... She said it in a way where I don't feel responsible for her feeling sad for me, just surprised by how compassionate she was, when I was so harsh to myself.

I really think she was way too compassionate... but I also see how I go to the other extreme, so mad at me, so harsh, so quick to condemn myself.

In the end, all I could say to her was, "ok." I explained I didn't really know what else to say.

After we hung up, I felt so cold, as in physically cold. Shivering. I always start to feel terribly physically cold whenever I try to deal with anything around this stuff that happened and how it impacts me now. It's like my body keeps trying to say something even though I have no words. My body still responds. It's all so intense. I'm so tired of this! grr.

sorry, I think I needed to vent and ramble...

and now I need to go get some tea to warm up with!

(((((JD))))) Warming you up with a cyber-hug!

I think that you can even start to talk about it is a big step. I'm glad your T is so patient and compassionate. You deserve someone to be kind to you. I know how hard it is to learn to be kind to ourselves, so we need a caring "other" to teach us. If it feels like too much, it is because we are comparing it to a severe deprivation that seems normal from familiarity.

Jane,

Oh I totally understand what you are saying and about the feeling cold and your body talking for you even when you don't have the words. It happens to me often.

What I've done when it is just so hard to get the words out and actually say what happened is to work with just saying something like, "I feel like I need to talk about what happened, but the words just won't come and I feel like I need to tell but can't tell at the same time." Then we wait and see how my body responds just to saying that. Sometimes if we work through some of the body reaction first then later the words will come. Just a thought. It may or may not apply for you, but I thought I'd mention it.

(((hugs)))

(((((JD)))))

I'm sorry about how hard it is to talk about and process all the bad things. I want to send you hugs and prayers.
You don't deserve to feel this way about yourself, you a a sweetheart.

hugs,

BB