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I sent her a long email, very long, about 8 pages, about what I felt was going wrong here and she just emails back an appointment time, not addressing any of the issues. I feel pulled back, like a hook pulling at me. I think it will be another awful session where I get all upset and she just sits there and say I have complicated mental issues that are require a psychologist but that we can work together for three months whilst I transfer to the psychologist, but my previous T still feels that this counsellor is damaging me as my previous T thinks all this talk about complex mental issues is so down putting and not taking the whole of me into account.
Me too.
Urgh, but I suspect I shall go on Weds morning anyway. I find it so hard not to. I am still attached. Urgh.
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sheychen, you are not necessarily 'attached', maybe you are LEARNING. y'no? i would go too, i would wonder what i might miss that could help steer me straighter, so, go with the attitude of learning, and as to 'complex mental issues'...i have struggled with my 'label' and it is what it is, you are you, and whatever it is can be worked on and through, so, don't let that t's ineptness pull you down. one t couldn't handle me, too, so, i know what it is like to feel unsolvable, but, the good folks on this forum assure me that there is an answer to this stuff. so, let me pass that assurance on to you.

and really, if she can't handle your stuff, much better to know now than to sit in her empty hands any longer, y'no?

Godspeed my friend!! jill
quote:
my previous T thinks all this talk about complex mental issues is so down putting and not taking the whole of me into account.


Sheychen- I am not posting much, but rather reading more. I have been reading some of your stuff, and I too agree with your previous T. I understand all about the learning that Jill talks about, and the attachment stuff too (me too), but I would not pay, or listen (or hopefully not attach to someone who I feel does not have my best interest at heart. And if I was attached (as that happens) to someone like that, I would run from it- because I would take that as more abuse. She is dumping her inability to do her job and making it your problem. Please see this (calmly) as you meet with her.

Even if you do (not saying you do- of course) have "complex issues" that is her job to help you, not contribute to any negative feelings you may already have about yourself. She should be the champion in your corner- helping you to gently see the things that you need to open up to about yourself. It sounds like she is telling you that you need and deserve someone that is more capable than she is. I can not imagine my T ever, ever saying words like complex ... issues.

My extremely unprofessional opinion (take it for what it is worth which is probably not much cuz we don't know each other, but...) is- "Dump her" Do it gently and with dignity and kindness, but dump her. She may be wasting your time when you could be healing with someone else.

Sincerely,
Mayo
five minutes to go
i have decided to pretend it is not a counselling appointment - just meeting an anon person, so that I don't get all anxious and then see what she is like today, get a sense of how she is wihout all my high anxiety running around in the middle. And if I still feel like 'what are you PLAYING at woman!" I shall shake her hand and leave.
Well, going in casually, pretending it was just a meeting, helped. I did not feel so anxious.
Then we started talking and i explained how I was here not knowing if it was the last meeting and explained that I was also seeing what she could offer me in terms of sessions and support. So for the first half hour that was what we talked about and how the other T was telling me what he could offer on Friday.And that I would compare the two. Also he is offering me an indefinite contract.
So then we started talking about how bad it has been these last six sessions. We got back into stuff we disagreed about and fairly soon I was getting really upset and frustrated and so was she, and I kept trying to pull back - she was just being so "No, that was not what I was saying, no I did not resent giving you phone time"etc. And I just kept saying " YOU DID! You said 'phoning you really messed up my day!" " no I didn't" " you did!" She said "sheychen, I am offering you support stepping stones, sessions, times, etc so that you are NOT let down here, I hurt too that we are being forced to end by the set up here, HEAR me," and I wailed with the sheer not knowing whether to believe her or not and she was also reaching sheer frustration, so I said

"Please can I hold your hand?"

and she was in mid "I don't know why you just can't hear me' so she had to replay what I just said, in her head and she looked at me in astonishment and came and gave me her hand and I took both her hands and shook and shook and we put our foreheads together. I kept saying ' oh god, oh god, oh god' and it was like praying. And she kind of joined in. Saying things like " I am sorry it has been so hard. I am so sorry that it has been hell recently' but I am here and I will set up whatever we can do for you, I am offering that , please hear me. "

And I heard her. And we set up sessions until Xmas, with phone support on Fridays and Mondays and sessions on Wednesdays.

and I told her that the other T, who is a psychologist, and ABOVE her in the hierachy, said he could advise the surgery NOT to terminate my sessions with her, and she said " well, he has not done that" and I said it was because I asked him not to, as I wasn't sure she wanted to continue, and anyway, she was being horrible. Smiler

So we are going to work on the littlest ONes, pain, the deep howling pain inside and I have three months and probably the Psychologist can get that extended a bit if we push, and then I can work with him if I need to.

That feels amazing that the whole thing has turned around in one hour. From leaving, to continuing. And at the end, I asked her to hold me, and she did, and I FELT her care. I have not FELT her care since August. I was in torment until now, it is so good to have that feeling back. Phew.

My goodness.

She said she was not going to deny that it has been a difficult few weeks for her too, ( I have been throwing the whole book at her.) and so I felt a bit sorry for her too.

But we ended back to how we were working in August.

Therapy huh, it is certainly not predictable.
quote:
Therapy huh, it is certainly not predictable.


You've got that right!

I am so so glad it has worked out. Big Grin

My relationship with my T is still good after a huge disconnect. It is not everything it could be- but we are working on it.

There may still be bumps in the road, but if you can see them, then you can lead or follow around them.

All My Best,
Mayo
Thanks Mayo,
I just wrote this on my blog:

The sky is full of broken hearts
My heart breaks
for you, for me.
Maybe had I looked up I would have seen
you looking at me with kind eyes
but seeing you with 'walk away' eyes tore me wide open.


Where do I go from here,
Holding a pain too deep to bear?


I go nowhere, for here is where I am
and this pain is what I have.


I am more than this pain. I am vast and spacious
and within me there is kindness enough to know and hold this too.


------------------------------------------------


Will you love me
through the sorrows and tomorrows?
Whatever the future will bring?
So my C rings up, like scheduled, to check in and we talk. I explain that I am not sure that leaving 8 - 9 weeks to work on LittlestOnes pains is enough, and I might be re- traumatized by having to end when I have not worked through either the attachment or the trauma.

She does not say "well, then we shall keep working on it, or ask the psychologist to advise that we need more time with me."

She says, "well, you can look at private therapists and they give first appointments free usually and then you will have more control and more freedom."

I cannot explain how that hurt to hear. Yes, yes, I know, I should just think "That is true" but what happens is I FEEL such pain. Like she is able to talk about passing me on, or me finding someone else like you can talk about which tea you want try next. ( Which 't' you want to try next, quite funny really!)

and it hurt deeply in the centre of my chest and I thought to myself, " Do I really want to start working again with her at depth only for me to get more attached and more hurting and then we have to terminate? And for her it will be that casual, it will, and for me it will be bloody heart rending."

It just seems to awful. It hurts even thinking about it never mind living through it.

So she suggested that we just work on the lack of respect I have for myself when I am in this pain, this raw basic heart pain. And we do that for next 8 weeks.

Like - try and keep it minimal.

So I just don;t know. I find it INCREDIBLY hard to hear another human being that I am attached to deeply, say with no pause or breath, "and you can find yourself another person to work with " etc etc and she can DO that. To her it does not cause pain in the heart. And she does not even sense how utterly pain wretching it is in my heart.

How can I work with someone who is so casual and nonchalant about how much it hurts me to disengage with someone who my smallest and most hurt self is deeply deeply attached to and needs so deeply? How can I keep working with her when she just does not seem to get that?

Maybe because she has never been through this, maybe because she was secure when she grew up. It seems a crime against humanity to be able to walk away from a human being like this, because that is what your job tells you to do.

to me it screams 'travesty of care' but she won't see it like that. For me, it is like if she stuck by me and helped me work through this - it would indeed heal the parts we are trying to heal. But that is exactly what she is not going to do. Stick by me. Care for me no matter what. And that is what that part needs.
Shyechen, I know this is really hard for you and I know I reacted with that same ache in my chest when my T asked me if she could recommend some other T’s as it seems that it is really easy for them to just be able to hand us over when they mean everything to us and the thought of working with someone else is like a rejection.

But Sheychen…she is holding tight to the fact that she can only work with you until December…she obviously knows she doesn’t have the skills to take you any further and she cares enough to offer you up other options. Yes you are attached and it hurts a lot (I know!) but by hoping that she will change her mind about this will only end up causing you more hurt. I don’t mean this to come across as harsh but it sounds like you want something that isn’t going to be possible therefore you are the one who is going to get more hurt by this and I don’t want to see that happen as you are already suffering so much.

Maybe it would be best for you to have a proper final session with her rather than having 8 more sessions where it sounds like you will be delving into deeper issues than is manageable for this amount of time and is prolonging an inevitable painful ending.

You can choose to ignore this, as I know how painful it is to lose someone you are attached to and I really do feel for you and only you know what is the best way for you.

Sending you hugs
Butterfly
(((( Sheychen ))))

I was all set to come on and say how pleased I was that you had resolved so much with this T and would be continuing with what seemed like her full support - and then I read your latest post! All I can say is I'm so so sorry, I so get how it must have felt to hear her so casually tell you to find someone else.

Deepfried's post makes a lot of sense - it sounds like you're in the crap position of having to sort out your ending for yourself. Just a question though - does your T HAVE to finish in December, or was that her initial decision after the crisis you had with her last week? And is she still certain about that? And are YOU certain about it - do you really want to keep working with her if she is unable to work on the deeper levels you need?

It really does sound like she still hasn't got just how profoundly attached you are and how much all this means to you. Would it be worth trying to explain it better to her? Even if she still maintains that she can't help you, at least you won't have to go away thinking 'if only I'd told her...'

Sorry this isn't terribly helpful - either way you are in an awful position.

Sending you lots of supportive hugs

LL
thanks Deepfried and butterfly, both of you have given really sane and helpful comments, I would like to post them on my blog, under D and B if that is okay by you.

I shall talk it through with my possible new T today (the psychologist Nick) and see what he thinks. I think the idea of pain minimisation is a good one, - yes, reducing pain is ALWAYS a good idea. I have also just emailed my previous therapist who worked so well with me 22 years ago, see below as I posted it on my blog.

thanks for you help, I shall ponder your replies in more detail as I read them a bit too fast just now.
I write to FirstFinder:

Dear FirstFinder, I am so uncertain of what to do here,
NewFinder phoned this morning for the ten minute stepping stone phone call and we were on for 35 mins which was not me - I kept saying " I have had my ten minutes by now" but she was okay talking.

What I find really REALLY hard FirstFinder, REALLY HARD:

is that she can talk quite calmly about saying how I can look for a private therapist and how we can work for the next 8 weeks on maybe how I don't respect myself for having this small child trauma pain and then I start work with someone else and

I HURT.

I just hurt so much hearing her talk so calmly about how she will end with me and I will find someone else.

It hurts right in the centre of my chest.

And I KNOW you could say "but that is her job" but to me it is like - well I think YOU Know what it is like - for me it is like :

But you are another human being and I have opened up to you and now a part of me is deeply attached to you and in real life the people who were meant to be there for me, weren't when I needed them and proved to be not there later on too, and you are meant to STAY and STICK by me and give me trust in humans again and not feel like ANYONE can walk away from me when they have had enough or cos they just CAN.

I HURT so much hearing her voice say this so calmly.

I want to shout :

THIS IS ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can 't just walk away from ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can't!!!!!!!

What the hell am I going to do? I want her to love me like you loved/love me and not treat me like someone who she is ending working with in December no big deal, but treat me like a human being who is hurting and who might need reassurance for a while.

Arghhhhhh,

It hurts so badly.

So I said to her, "NewFinder, I am not sure continuing working with you, cos my littlest self is so attached to you, is a good idea cos I had just gone through a lot of grief of losing you over the last three weeks and had got myself to being able to leave and if we open up more of that littlest self's pain then I shall have to walk away in about 8 weeks time and that will hurt EVEN MORE as I will be EVEN MORE attached to you!"

And she said "well, it is for you to make the decision. ANd maybe you could ask Nick about it this afternoon, when you see him " (Nick is the psychologist.)

Oh FirstFinder, I HAVE to work out a way to help ME here, but the trouble is the part that should do the working out bit is flooded by the hurting bit. So I don;t know what to do.

I shall tell you how it goes with Nick this afternoon, if he has any view on it.

There has always been this possibility that he can strongly advise the surgery to let me continue with NewFinder but when she was talking on the phone, it is so clear that she is very much ending in December in her head, and as she won't be honest about WHO decided I should end, and I feel that she is QUITE COOLY able to just pass me on and say goodbye, should I really try to force her to continue working with me??????

Just cos my littlest self loves her so much and won't let go.

Arghhhh,,

The other option is that I start working with Nick if I can, and see what he can offer this afternoon, I could even maybe get one and half hour sessions with him. Once a week and I don;t know what back up in between. I can negotiate today. I have no idea if he will hold me when I get very distressed, - doubt it. I would give a lot for some holding... sigh.

and then I could suggest that I phase out with NewFinder over the next few weeks and phase in with him.

OR

i take power and a deep plunge and find a private therapist (urgh, like FalseFinder was private - urgh) and I hunt for one for several months til I find someone who can see me on my terms
it would cost about £6,000 over the next two years or so, maybe more.
I have saved about that in an ISA as I don;t have a pension, so I could use that. And I would feel more in control.

I woudl do it if it was for my children. I would not let THEM be so messed about by the NHS.

But at the same time, I quite like Nick. I am sort of prepared to work with him. What do you think? Do you think the 'stigma' of being treated in the mental health services by a clinical psychologist would get me down? Or that at last I am working with someone who knows more about what they are doing??

This is so hard.

Maybe you were TOO good to me, maybe no one else IS that kind and sticks by me like you do, so they will all just be 'therapists' who walk away when they can and I need to feel that I MATTER.

That is really important to me. I feel NewFinder cares - but I don't MATTER to her in the way that I need/want.

it is a lovely day here and I hope you got out in your garden or are supervising the conservatory building.

I will get through this. I know I will. And I will be wonderful when I do.!!

best wishes and love Sheychen
YEs, Lamplighter, I am not sure she really understands attachment AT ALL - as she can so calmly talk about me finding someone else without realising that I just will HURT so much when she says that, - it is truly like a little child hanging for dear life on to their mommy and the mommy is just casually telling someone "Oh I am going to drop her off in about 8 weeks and leave her life for ever"

THAT is how it feels. And it feels like that cos of the deep traumas I have had, and I am NOT going to be ashamed of it (which I have been for 49 years) I am going to admit it and face and it find a way to HEAL it and yes, it KEEPS seeming like she is OUT of her DEPTH, but my littlest self does NOT want to leave her AT ALL

urgh. more news later when i have seen nick the psychologist. I know no one else mentions their T's name here but I have this C and have this possible T (nick) and I am getting confused enough without confusing all of you as well.

Heck. Hard work this.
quote:
'm not sure if you are experiencing things exactly how I think you may be but I hope either your C or your T hear your fear about this separation. If the separation is unavoidable, if you are definitely terminating with your C then IMHO the rest of your sessions should be focused on healing the attachment wound it is going to cause.

Deep Fried.


I think working on how much it has hurt and how it will hurt leaving her is a good idea, as it is going to hurt like hell and in a way she needs to really work on that with me as she is the one who is doing the ending not me.
So i agree with that, Hugely.
In an ideal world I would work on ending with her whilst I work on beginning with Nick but HE said (last time I talked with him) that we cannot be working concurrently (at the same time) but I shall talk to him today about it.
urgh, this is so DRAINING.
What I really want from her, want to ask her is :

Will you love me
through the sorrows and tomorrows?
Whatever the future will bring?

and that is NOT what she has shown she can do.

arghh. Can ANY therapist? Am I doomed to hold this pain all my life or is it time I cut my losses and remind myself that I have my ex T and my lovely family around me and hang on to that and not hope that someone can help me heal the raging hurting small child inside. Sigh.
I saw Nick (psychologist) and he is offering
one hour fortnightly only for 12 months only.

Frowner

he is going to ring the C on Monday and ask her to extend working with me until Easter so that I can at least address the trauma of the youngest part of me.

I could then work with him after Easter fortnightly or find a private therapist.

This is so tiring.

He said that he thought it would do me good to work fortnightly as I would have to learn to use my own skills to keep going and also that he thought I would not find anyone to re parent me in the NHS system. (????)

I am shattered.

collapsing - feel I am in a really tough corner. I would LIKE to work with the C until Easter and the idea of sessions once a fortnight nearly made me faint, I can't even make nine days at the moment and seven is pushing it. Bloomin' heck.

I wish AG would post, I could do with some ENCOURAGEMENT, she got re parented, she went beyond attachment issues, This Psychologist is saying that sometimes you just have to learn to live with the pain.
quote:
He said that he thought it would do me good to work fortnightly as I would have to learn to use my own skills to keep going and also that he thought I would not find anyone to re parent me in the NHS system. (????)



quote:
the idea of sessions once a fortnight nearly made me faint, I can't even make nine days at the moment and seven is pushing it. Bloomin' heck.



quote:
This Psychologist is saying that sometimes you just have to learn to live with the pain.




Sheychen, all of this really concerns me. It just feels like YOU are not being seen...and that is wrong. Of course you have some serious decisions to make in all of this...that really, only you can make...but waht about some help in making those decisons...it just doesn't seem like you are asking for "too much" here. Be kind to yourslef...I'm sorry that you are dealing with so much pain. My heart goes out to you.

BB
Sheychen,

I agree with BB...it doesn't seem like your needs are being considered at all. Is it possible that you could talk to another psychologist, just to get another viewpoint here? Things seem so turbulent with your counselor that to add a bit of a wishy washy psychologist on top of that seems like a recipe for disaster. Of course, I do think it is really great that it sounds like you're at least getting a little more time to transition, but just in case you have another rupture, it seems like you should have someone dependable to fall back on, at least for basic support. And even if this psychologist has his opinions about what others in the system can or can't do, I don't know if you should completely take his word for it.

I'm sorry this is so painful for you...please hang in there.

Hugs,
Kashley
I am hanging in there. I guess I am confident enough NOT to take what the psychologist says as gospel. Also it is not my experience of previous therapy, twenty years ago. My T re parented me and healed a lot of me through her love and care and patience and kindness. She was a true T in the best sense.

But a session once every 14 days because that is all the health care funding in my part of England offers, well that is APPALLING.

So I am fingers crossed for my present C being persuaded to keep me until Easter and THEN I go private.

And I will have more control then.

I am SO GLAD I found this site just when this all was erupting, it is proving so helpful to have your imput and support.

It is massively painful just now but I am doing quite well through it and I think of what True North is going through and feel that my termination is not so bad and how AG actually came out the OTHER side - so it can be done.

I am hanging on in there, Maybe on Monday lunchtime I will hear if my C is prepared to keep going with me.

Maybe I am just too challenging a client. I don't just believe what they say or do AT ALL.

I also am very very hurt, so am not easy to handle.
Walk Gently
Walk gently, then, with your frailty; allow it to bless you.
It will not cripple you unless you run from it.
Embrace it instead.
Carry it as one carries the cherished secret of a great wealth
Hidden away in a holy, eternal space
Like a treasure hidden in a field.
Macrina Wiederkehr, ‘A Tree Full Of Angels’


I talked with an old friend, L.E. who is both a Christian, a Buddhist and a psychotherapist and retreat leader and meditation teacher. She is American and visited me about nine years ago. I told her what has been going on.

She had many useful insights.

She said that I have been working with someone who has been experiencing some major counter transference but is unconscious of it. This is why she has been taking my anger and upset personally. I was right, - I FELT that she was reacting to me as though I was not me, but some idea of a person put on me. I am someone from her past. the counsellor is not able to admit that counter transference is not a failing but actually a part of this level of deep work and so she is in denial or defended against looking at this part of herself.

Also, L.E. said that I have psychotic attachment - which fortunately does not mean I am psychotic. It means that I have attached to this counsellor despite the information that I have that she is actually harming me and out of her depth and not actually suitable for me to work at this level of depth. I have such a strong idealisation of her as being warm and kind and loving for me, that I cannot see the reality which is someone who has good intentions but not the skill or depth or strength to deal with what I am bringing to therapy. L.E. thought that I might actually be terribly hurt if I delve into deep inner baby level pain and this counsellor does not know what to do or reacts again. I shall not feel safe nor met. It WILL retraumatize me.

I have been saying that but not believing it.

My wounded child who is attached to her regardless, has in the past gone back to people who hurt and harm her, for a few minutes of kindness and gentleness. I am willing to put up with a lot of pain and anger and confusion for a little kindness and care. This is why I have found that I go back even though it has been awful.

L.E. also said that this counsellor was someone trained in working with conscious processes and my major work now is on my unconscious processes. My unconscious processes are what are brimming over and flowing into the therapeutic space, except the space is not therapeutic anymore because the counsellor cannot handle the paradoxical emotions and entanglements that are so complex in me. And I am out of my depth so with two people out of their depth, there is a lot of confusion.

L.E. also said that this counsellor is often infringing ethical guidelines, especially the way in which she brings her own emotional pain into the therapeutic space and blaming me for her loss of interior boundaries where she gets upset at me that it takes her so long to process what I have told her and how draining that is for her, like reading my blog (which I have asked her not to do now - for obvious reasons!) and she then says how long it took her to process it or how Crisis Friday spoilt her whole day and her interactions with people. that is actually her own internal boundaries going and not something to blame me for. Also she has often been very well meaning and done and offered more than she can handle and later lets out a volley of how she found the emails difficult, the having to phone, the cardigan issue, the time put in for fighting for me when I just complain at her. I did not know what she was doing, I took her at face value, that if she said she would do something but I did not know she would resent it.

L.E. also said that the supervisor was obviously beginning to point out some of the counter transference issues. Also it is strange that the stepping stones have suddenly happened after six sessions of arguing about it and not getting them.

But we have a counsellor who has said "you have too complex issues for me to deal with" which is actually saying " I am out of my depth."

So L.E. said that I can see that I am doing a duty of care to my inner self that is vulnerable and hurting now, and exit from this inadequate therapeutic relationship which is damaging to me, and take my hurt self to another more experienced therapist. This is not running away, it is taking the hurt in me and going and working on it elsewhere. It is important to break the pattern of staying too long with someone who just cannot meet me where I need to be met. Who is not trained to work with unconscious workings of the mind and heart and who is truly thrown about by her own counter transference and issues with her own view of herself as a competent and able counsellor who can work with me.
quote:
Also, L.E. said that I have psychotic attachment - which fortunately does not mean I am psychotic. It means that I have attached to this counsellor despite the information that I have that she is actually harming me and out of her depth and not actually suitable for me to work at this level of depth. I have such a strong idealisation of her as being warm and kind and loving for me, that I cannot see the reality which is someone who has good intentions but not the skill or depth or strength to deal with what I am bringing to therapy. L.E. thought that I might actually be terribly hurt if I delve into deep inner baby level pain and this counsellor does not know what to do or reacts again. I shall not feel safe nor met. It WILL retraumatize me.

I have been saying that but not believing it.

L.E. also said that this counsellor was someone trained in working with conscious processes and my major work now is on my unconscious processes. My unconscious processes are what are brimming over and flowing into the therapeutic space, except the space is not therapeutic anymore because the counsellor cannot handle the paradoxical emotions and entanglements that are so complex in me. And I am out of my depth so with two people out of their depth, there is a lot of confusion.

L.E. also said that this counsellor is often infringing ethical guidelines, especially the way in which she brings her own emotional pain into the therapeutic space and blaming me for her loss of interior boundaries where she gets upset at me that it takes her so long to process what I have told her and how draining that is for her, like reading my blog (which I have asked her not to do now - for obvious reasons!) and she then says how long it took her to process it or how Crisis Friday spoilt her whole day and her interactions with people. that is actually her own internal boundaries going and not something to blame me for. Also she has often been very well meaning and done and offered more than she can handle and later lets out a volley of how she found the emails difficult, the having to phone, the cardigan issue, the time put in for fighting for me when I just complain at her. I did not know what she was doing, I took her at face value, that if she said she would do something but I did not know she would resent it.


Wow Sheychen this L.E. is a very wise and experienced therapist. I'm so glad you spoke to her. Much of what I quoted above could be applied to my relationship with my oldT. It seemed at times that I was doing both jobs and he could not step up to being of help to me and there were numerous times where he dumped his emotional frustrations on me... and in doing so was quite hurtful to me. I always forgave him because I chalked it up to being human and we all make mistakes. But I cannot erase some of the very hurtful things he said and did to me. They still hurt.

The difference in my situation is that my T just called the police, threw me out and has refused to talk to me except for some dismissive emails and one session with D present in the room with us. He terminated me with little explanation and via an email where I had no opportunity to process what happened to me.

This is my advice from someone who is still in horrible agony over losing her voice and contact with her beloved T who meant so much to her. Decide on how many sessions you would need to let go of this C. Discuss it with her. DO NOT work on any trauma issues from your past. Instead use this time to process your departure from her and discuss what you found helpful or not so helpful in this therapy relationship. Talk about some funny memories (hope you have a few) or some things you found especially helpful or healing that she did for you. Talk about the loss and the inevitable grief and express your feelings over that. Maybe in the next to last session you can have her meet whoever you decide to work with next? Keep the last session for making your goodbyes, perhaps give her a small token to remember you by. Then plan something soothing and enjoyable for yourself that day after session.

I think LE is correct and I will tell you that I divulged a very traumatic memory to my T about 3 weeks before he threw me out. It was extremely difficult to do and you know... he barely said anything to me about it. He said "well you know, that was not your fault" and I said, "I'm not so sure about that". Then he said "you did good by talking about it" And I replied "thank you". That was IT. He never referred to it again and I feel like it's still out there.. hanging in mid-air. Not processed, not resolved, nothing. I was not comforted or given empthy. It haunts me that what I told him repulsed him from me and had something to do with his hurtful and harmful behavior towards me after that.

I guess what I'm saying here is to avoid any discussion of past trauma with this C as it could cause further damage to you. I know as I have lived this very same thing and it haunts me and it makes talking about it ever again to anyone that much more painful and difficult. Don't know that I will ever find the strength to reveal it again to anyone as it now has attached to the trauma another trauma of my Ts hurtful reaction to it.

Good luck Sheychen. I'm glad you spoke to L.E. and that you told us about it here.

TN
Hi True North, you really know what this is like, don't you. This is HELL. I still don't know WHY he called the police, did you pull a gun on him/!!!!

This counsellor called my doctor and made him home visit, and then terminated with me when I had only been sobbing uncontrollably. sigh.

anyway, L.E's advice is good and backs up my own. I am hanging in there cos I can't bear not seeing her anymore but she is actually harming me, just look at the posts I have put on this site since early Sept. I have been going through hell.

Sounds like your T also had counter transference.

I am thinking of seeing this new private T this week and not telling the counsellor, so that I keep my options open. Just suss out the new T. The new T may not work as she is so far saying she only does 50 min sessions. Sigh.

I have felt to 'mentally ill" with the counsellor which no previous therapist ever said to me, they just sympathised with the amount of trauma and pain I have successfully processed and how much is still left.

I do think that I need to do ending focussed sessions as it is really hard leaving her, and I shall mourn her for a long while, mourning also what she could not be for me.

I am so sorry about your grief and pain and loss at what happened with your ex t. I get angry reading about what he did to you, he just needs some sharp words from a superior - he is and has behaved appallingly and he is trying to hide behind therapy stuff to get away with it.

I also disclosed something I have never talked about to this C the session before she sent me the email. I have very awful feelings about that. I try to convince myself that she was okay with that disclosure, she just was NOT okay with me sobbing OTT on the Friday. She stills says she did not panic, but she certainly over reacted big time. She terminated with me for heavens sake.

I need to get away from her with dignity. I really truly do.

I am worth more than this, I really am. It hurts though, it hurts.

I find your comments so helpful. I may even end with her very soon, like this week or next, it all depends on who I find and how quickly. I feel so patronised by her, like ' you are not okay but I am so okay' when that is not how I see it at all and not how L.E or my previous therapist of 22 years ago see it nor my friend who is also a counsellor nor anyone really whom I disclose any of this too. Most people are horrified at how inept she is. sigh.

I also had a spiritual teacher of mine on the phone today, saying "IT is all in the past, just drop all this pain, do not give it all so much attention'. and like it will all go away if I just choose to drop it?!
I wish you well in your search, Sheychen.

Here- maybe this will brighten your day-

I co teach in a grade 6 Social Studies class and we are currently studying Ancient China. The students are making power point presentations to present their ideas for a video game set in Ancient China. One of the students asked me what to name one of their female characters for the game, and I immediately responded,"How about Sheychen?" They loved it. So your Avatar name is a fictional character in a grade 6 Social studies project. (The name sounds Asian) We are studying the Shang and the Qin (pronounced Chen) dynasties/empires.
Hope you don't mind we borrowed your name.

All my best to you.
I love it, it is actually a Tibetan Buddhist name given me by a very well know teacher. It means perfection of wisdom.
so very good to have it in a chinese game!
thank you also for your well wishes, I feel in need of them at the moment, I think this week will be the week I have to make the momentous and very painful decision to walk away from my C and meet a new T and start paying as well! Ouch.
I know the ouch!
My T does not accept insurance- which means he is out of network. My ins company pays 70% and I pay 30%. My T is an expensive one, but he is worth every penny. He is a Doctor of psychology (PsyD)

I wish you well on your T hunt. Pick one that is smarter than you with high credentials and great recommendations.

Regards,
Mayo
Thanks, Mayo, yes, the money bit really really worries me.

I have just found out about DBT, looked it up, it seems like it would really help me because when things get really bad, I get swamped emotionally. I can be very emotionally reactive when under pressure or scared etc. Well most people can.
I also apparently came seem very threatening when infact I am frightened and so on my defense. Maybe I have to work on DBT on my own, as I cannot seem to find anyone with that kind of training near me.
Well, it has been a busy day. C has not spoken to Nick yet but she had read what Nick had recommended and was hoping to talk to him at 4pm and also talk with the Doctors at the surgery who make these decisions.

Nick rang me at 2pm and I told him what my friend the clinical psychologist had said about me having more sessions and Nick said he was under his own rules which he could bend a little and maybe he could see me once a week for 2 - 3 months then move it to once a fortnight. He is still recommending that I work with the C til Easter. Hopefully they will talk at 4pm.

Then I rang the possible NEW T at 3pm and she said that she is supervised by the same supervisor as does the supervision for the C's supervisor. Arghh. so that means the NEW T cannot work with me as the C's supervisor and Sthe possible new T are colleagues and too close.

Did you manage to keep up with all that?
confusing isn't it
imagine how I feel
so i still don't know what is going to happen.

I will find out on Wednesday at my next session with C.
My old T is STRONGLY recommending that I QUIT with this C sooner rather than later.

Oh my poor head and heart.
Hi Sheychen,
Sorry it’s taken me so long to reply but I was out of town for the weekend and had no internet access. I’m sorry that this had been one long ongoing nightmare for you. I must agree with other responses you’ve gotten and say that L.E. sounds very wise. I think what she said about her “loss of interior boundaries” was so spot on. Your C is out of her depth and not equipped to handle the very things that you desparately need to process in order to heal. So she is the one breaking her own boundaries (or not holding them, whichever way you wish to word it) then blaming you. It’s like spending a whole party running around filling everyone drinks, bringing food to people and cleaning up without anyone asking, then at the end of the party screaming at everyone for how selfish they are. No matter how much she may want to blame you (and most human beings occasionally slip into the “you made me....” at times) she cannot make you responsible for what she does. Even if you were being incredibly demanding and pushy, it’s still her decision about what she’s willing to do. I have to tell you that as frustrating as it could be when my T held a boundary, and later my husband Smiler, I have always gained an incredible sense of safety in knowing I could NOT push him around. Which was good, because often when I was processing these overwhelming confusing chaotic painful emotions the last thing I felt was in control, so it was good to know someone else was even if it meant being disappointed about some things. I also very much agree that you are starting to deal with unconscious stuff and your C is not equipped. It is too easy to be re-traumatized with someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing. And as much as it feels like you may be wasting time, if you stick with her and continue to be retraumatized, not only are you not getting better, you’re adding to the pile of stuff you need to deal with, which again increases the amount of time spent in therapy.

I know the expense can be overwhelming, but I think at this point, it’s pretty important for you to find someone who is both trained in trauma and who is willing to provide you with the level of contact that you feel you need (just know that any level of contact a T is willing to provide will still not be enough at times.)

quote:
AG ... got re parented, she went beyond attachment issues, This Psychologist is saying that sometimes you just have to learn to live with the pain.


Sheychen, I hope this next part is not too difficult to hear right now, but I really felt it important to talk about what you said here. I wouldn’t call what my T did “re-parenting.” There was a dual process of providing for me the things that I was capable of taking in even as an adult, and providing a safe, secure place to mourn the loss around the things my parents didn’t provide that are now impossible to get. And the only way to figure out the difference between those two things was to keep (very painfully) running into his boundaries. Once we established enough trust, I became clear that my T was very committed to my well-being and that if there was something that he was capable of providing me, he NEVER held back. It was given freely and given for as long as I needed to experience it. (The best example of this was being able to reassure me that he was neither going to leave me nor send me away. I said once to my husband in a couples’ session that my T had explained something to me eight times and my T said 8 of 8008. If I had known he was being literal I might have fled. Smiler) But if he knew that it was impossible to provide something, he was just as quick to make that clear. Very gently, and compassionately while making room to hear all my feelings about that, which is why I would mourn. Because if I wanted it and he said no but was clear that it was normal to want that, then I realized that as much as I should have had it, I didn’t and the only way to heal was to grieve. The example that springs to mind on this one, was about being special. I wanted so badly to know that I was a “favorite client” in some way. The truth is that everyone is supposed to be special when they’re little, to be adored by their parents and only later in life have to come to grips with the fact that people outside their family might not quite see them that way all the time. If we don’t have that, the desire for it does not go away. I lost track of the number of times I discussed this with my T. About how jealous I was of his family and what they meant to him, how I hated being limited to an hour a week, how I hated that he was such a large part of my life and I wasn’t of his. That while what he gave me was real and deep, it wasn’t anything he wouldn’t offer to anyone who came through his door. When we discussed it, he was really clear that it was not only ok that I felt that way, but very understandable. But it still wasn’t something he could give me. So I grieved.

So what I did get from the relationship was a stronger, wiser other that I could depend on to hear me and understand me, focus on only my needs, mirror to me an accurate picture of who I was, and to treat me as if I mattered until I could believe it. It’s the closest thing to unconditional love I think I’ve ever experienced on a human level. It became clear over the course of our relationship (it was a LONG uphill battle to believe) that no matter what I did or said or expressed, my T was there and I was cared for. I remember once asking my T if he was proud of me (I had just talked, very self-consciously, about an accomplishment of mine) and he went right past my question to what I was actually asking. He told me that there are two ways to ask that question, the first of which is a rhetorical way of saying “hey, I did good here, didn’t I?” and that was fine. But the second meaning of that question was “hey, I did this, am I ok now?” Then he told me that the problem of getting a yes answer to that question was that it implied that there was a time that the answer was no. He then proceeded to tell me that of course hearing about good things was enjoyable, how could he not be happy about life begetting life but it didn’t matter if I came to him with an accomplishment or sat across with him with snot running down my face (unfortunately a literal experience for my T Big Grin) that NOTHING changed about how he felt about me. That while he might approve or be disappointed by things that I did (he gave the example of me getting drunk and running into a pole for the later.) that nothing would change how he felt about me. That he was always proud of me. The real gift he gave me was sitting across from me KNOWING and BELIEVING in what to him was a self-evident, given fact: that I was a worthwhile, capable person who just needed to learn that about myself. Which was a gift beyond price. (Sorry had to stop for the tears.)

But he didn’t give me everything I didn’t have as a child and there were times when that was unspeakably painful and difficult to face. Facing those griefs and the pain of them is among the hardest things I’ve ever had to do.

Which brings us to the “sometimes you just have to learn to live with the pain” part. There is some truth to this but don’t stop reading! When I was trying to heal what was basically in the back of my mind was that eventually I would have an “earned” secure attachment with my T (earned does not refer to you being worth of the attachment, but the fact that you have to work really hard to heal from old injuries in order to feel secure) and that it would be the same as if I had grown up with “good enough” parenting and had a secure attachment from childhood onwards. But it’s just not true. There was real loss, and real pain involved in what my childhood was like, and I healed from those losses by grieving. But like all grieving, it left scars. My T used the analogy of someone burying a spade deep in a tree. The tree is injured but it will continue to grow around the spade and heal from the injury and go onto to thrive but it will always have as spade buried in it. In the same way, in certain stressful, triggering situations, I can still have those old feelings and lies rise up (I’m unlovable, I’m stupid, I’m worthless, everyone will eventually leave me, you know the drill I’m sure). But now I have something to balance against those messages. other truths to help me work through them. So I am able to stand on what I NOW know to be true. That I am worthwhile and valuable but I am also human so that sometimes I make mistakes but that doesn’t completely define me. That those feelings which rise up are just that, feelings, and they’ll pass. I don’t always feel like that and what I feel isn’t always an accurate reflection of reality. That process used to take me a very, very, long time, but now I find that it can take only minutes and even sometimes, miraculously, seconds. I have to “gently push” myself when these things happen. The gentle part is realizing when these old messages rise up, that I can be compassionate with myself about them, because they make perfect sense based on what I experienced (something my T taught me over and over again). The pushing part is being able to say to myself “but I know that’s not true anymore, so I’ll just go forward acting like I believe it isn’t true, until I no longer feel like it’s the truth.” So yes, the pain is in some sense always with me, but it has no where near the power and control it used to have. And I’m no longer scared of feeling it, because now I know it won’t destroy me. I even in some sense welcome those scars, because it is from those places and the work I had to do to heal, that some of the best parts of me have come.

I wouldn’t want to have what happened to me happen to anyone, but I have also made my peace with the fact that what happened is an integral part of who I am, that it has helped to shape and mold the person that I am and that some of my greatest strengths have grown directly out of surviving and healing from what happened to me.

All that said, I think it’s really important to find someone who understands trauma. It was the clarity of my T’s understanding so that he was able to hold still that allowed me to understand what I needed to mourn and what I need to take in from him.

AG
Wow, AG!

Wow!

That is so clearly put and so helpful. I think we shall all benefit from what you have written here just now.

That IS the re parenting that I am talking about and it is also like you say about grieving what you lost. I also am aware that I carry scars, (some of them very physical and literal) but that I shall get to a place where the pain is not immobilising me. When I look back, the pain was creating patterns of interaction and tangles in my life and now I am very aware of it and facing it and feeling its undercurrents. This is progress.

I am still torn as I find it hard to move on from this C who is not up to scratch and I am not sure the T (psychologist) is up to scratch and I was a bit thrown by the possible new T being involved with my old C's supervisor, 0 that is SUCH a shame, as she seemed very good. I live in a very rural area so have to travel to get to cities or towns so it is hard.

I am just seeing what unfolds, and keeping my options open. I would like a better qualified T - for sure, - like most people here, I want YOURS!! I can work towards finding this person. Someone wrote on here that I need to find someone who is cleverer than me and actually I agree with that, - I am clever, and I can actually usually run rings round people if I need to, or want to. I need a T who is way ahead of me and stays firm.

Sigh.

thank you for posting, going to print that out so that I can keep reading it over.

You should write a book. "therapy and how to survive it."
quote:
It is too easy to be re-traumatized with someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing. And as much as it feels like you may be wasting time, if you stick with her and continue to be retraumatized, not only are you not getting better, you’re adding to the pile of stuff you need to deal with, which again increases the amount of time spent in therapy.


yes, I am trying to remember this AG.

"So what I did get from the relationship was a stronger, wiser other that I could depend on to hear me and understand me, focus on only my needs, mirror to me an accurate picture of who I was, and to treat me as if I mattered until I could believe it. It’s the closest thing to unconditional love I think I’ve ever experienced on a human level. It became clear over the course of our relationship (it was a LONG uphill battle to believe) that no matter what I did or said or expressed, my T was there and I was cared for. "

this is what I was hoping for and what I meant by good reparenting, modelling these kind of feelings and being met etc, and I am not getting this with this C.

"The gentle part is realizing when these old messages rise up, that I can be compassionate with myself about them, because they make perfect sense based on what I experienced (something my T taught me over and over again). "

I like this and agree I feel the same, that I am coming to compassion for myself with my scars and with my past.

I am still working on finding another therapist and my therapist of 22 yrs ago is helping me.
saw the C today
It just is so hard. I tried to tell her how I feel. misjudged, not heard, wrong judgements. It was so difficult. and how it is feeling unsafe to FEEL in those sessions, how I do not feel safe,and she just brings up counter arguments - like " did you not feel safe when you disclosed this or that" and I say "but for six weeks we argued and mis heard and were in a vortex of really difficult energy" and for the last three weeks too.
and she just sees it as I cannot see how much she has cared, that she has been there for me. When I sit there, it is clear that it must be, from her point of view, all my fault, that I am unable to feel her care and feel safe, that there is something wrong with me, that she has done all the right things, and there is something wrong with me, She doesn't of course SAY the word 'wrong' but indicates that the problems are my problems, that she is doing all the right things.

I just sit there and try so hard to be heard.

She will be able to walk away feeling she did all the right things and that I was just an incredibly difficult client and not able to appreciate the help that she offered.

She said she wanted to offer an over view, of the sessions.
That I had gone through all the interconnectedness of India and false therapist, and the boy and the burn and my father and that all my life I have found very resourceful ways to get people to care for me. And that I keep repeating that I want people/her to care, and that is what I do, I just keep making that happen, one way or another and that actually I now need to care for me.

That is her humble synopsis.

She may be right on all these things. and I need to stick in there and turn this around, be appreciative of her caring and work on letting go of my attachment needs.

She said that with attachment stuff you do NOT offer more than the session, you keep it really contained.

That way you teach the client to come through that.

You do not offer more support etc.

I am so tired. She suggested that maybe we finish today and count this as our last session. But I just asked to keep the next session open and see how I go.

I don;t know where I am with all this. All I know is that I don't know. And I am very tired. And I find it too painful really. I tried to tell her how much I hurt, how much this is all hurting but it seemed wrong somehow to tell her that. I did. but I felt very uncomfortable with it and I could not tell if that was because I dare not trust people with my hurts or whether it is truly unsafe to tell her how much this all hurts.
some one just wrote this comment on my blog:
"Your T is the map, the camp and the compass.... OWN that the rest is your journey . You keep telling this woman she doesn't care when having BOUNDARIES IS CARE. What she said sounds 110% spot on. Release yourself from the ideas others MUST CARE. Your abuse history and pain isn't the only way to get love and care. You can be special outside of trauma and trauma recovery. I promise you that working on YOU instead of bean counting love and concern is the way to go and then you will truly find the depth that relationships can go. I hope you let your next T keep the very firm boundaries that you require to TRULY HEAL. Namaste.”
Yesterday I had what I think will be the last session with the C.

I am going to try and write it up, as I will probably be pondering what went so wrong between us for quite a long time. I am aware as I sit here after another 'only four hours sleep' of a night, that I am going to be bleeding about this for a long time, it is not going to heal easily, getting over this totally fracturing of a therapeutic relationship.

I went in rather rushed, as I had taught a really chilling out yoga class and then had to make my kids lunch and then dash so was carrying a travel mug of tea into the session with me which along with the banana I ate on the way and a rice cake, was my lunch. But I got there and I tried to work out what would be helpful to say.

I said how the phone calls and the sessions being sorted for the next three weeks helped me feel like I was standing on solid ground. I also then said that I did not feel I needed phone calls this week as I am going to Wales and will be distracted enough I hope, to not need that level of support and that I did not want to ask for her time if I did not truly need it.

I had been warned by at least two people, not to try and get her to see how it has been for me, that she is NOT going to see, as she just can't. But I just could not seem to help myself, it just came spilling out. I could not leave it alone. I again asked why she had not fought my corner and she again patiently replied that she is not a private therapist and that she cannot and does not have the power to choose what to do. That my doctor had said that he thought it was not a good situation and she agreed that I needed so much more than a session a week, as my state and condition was such that I required more and so she advised that I go to secondary services which would give me more time and more support. So again I pointed out that this is not actually the case, that secondary services cannot provide more, as we have found out. And she said that she had not known that. I said she acted unprofessionally in passing me on to something that did not exist. She got angry and defensive at that. She felt that was unreasonable of me to say so. But from my point of view, she reacted on that Friday, decided that that kind of “blow' was going to happen regularly and that “ It seems that your current belief is that if you can get all the holding and visible demonstrations of caring from me, on an open-ended basis and to the degree, intensity and for the length of time you want, then this is going to make all the difference. I am simply not able to meet those needs for such availability and time”. So she made her view based on that belief. (She said the next session after the termination letter that she cannot give me 24/7 care, so she obviously had exaggerated the extent of my distress in her head.)

I again said she had seriously misjudged me, that just because I blew once, because for six whole weeks she had not been listening to me, she decided that I would blow 24/7 and therefore 'for my own good' she should pass me on. I said again, that the timing was appalling. That I was beginning to turn around and that because of her care on the Friday I believed she did truly care and on the Monday I began to mirror that and care for myself, but within two hours of that happening she had sent the termination email.

I still feel that she got angry and reacted after that Friday. She denies this. She insists she is doing and has always done what is genuinely in my best interests. She cannot seem to admit that she is still annoyed and irritated.

She brought up again “why did you 'up the anti', your own expression, on that Friday?” (something really really annoys her about that, from that moment on she has not been able to like me.) I asked her if she had never in her life, upped the anti because no one was hearing her? Because that is what it felt like to me that I was going through the worst time of year for me, that I was disclosing things I had never disclosed that had me feeing vulnerable and exsposed, that I had lost my attachment figure of kindness as most of the previous six sessions were full of anger and conflict, that I was touching the most core pain – and still she was not hearing me. Most people I know admit to finding a way to bring the pain to the surface sometime in their life. It is not THAT abnormal.
So I genuinely tried to answer that. “I have such strong barriers, protection barriers up to prevent other people and myself knowing that deep inner core pain, that I had to force it through by allowing it to deliberately build and break through. I wanted you to know it, see it, hear it, I wanted to trust you with that, and you did hear it and you did care. That meant a lot to me. You did. You think I manipulated you and it was a sham, it was not. I was 90% in pain and distress and 10% pushing it through to make it visible. I do admit that if that had been a teaching day it would not have happened.”

But also as I explain this to her, I feel unsafe and I do not feel safe from her reactions to anything I tell her at this level. She is judging me for it, not hearing my pain around it. She cannot seem to help herself.

That 10% is the bit that I feel she cannot bear. That to her, was wrong. It has violated some code that I did not know about. It made me beyond her ability to care and truly be there for me. Who has pushed her in her own life or 'upped the anti' that she then put those feelings of 'this is too much, this is beyond what I can accept' on to me?
Also I emailed her and I told her, I even headed it with 'This is important.”
I was being honest and I was as worried about what was going on as she was. I was not hiding it. Bizarrely if I had hidden it, I would still be working with her.

She protested that she did not feel I was manipulating her, that she could indeed hear my genuine distress, and that she asked me on that Friday what to do and talked me through it. I think still she was out of her depth on that day and classified it as a far more serious incident, in her head, that it actually was for me. And that has been the cause of all this trouble.

And I also wonder if in a way I knew that and tried to explain that it was not as bad as it seemed to de- escalate it myself. Anyway, now it does not matter because no matter how much I protest that I am not that bad, she sees me as 'that bad' and is sticking to it. And she truly has me in a “that bad” box, a very tight box, and no matter what I say or do, she is going to keep me in her tight box. She cannot do otherwise, otherwise she would have to question herself and other motives in her for what she did.

And again I asked why she could not have fought for me. And she AGAIN went back to saying she thought I knew that we were terminating at Christmas anyway.( god – to me that is so untrue – so utterly untrue and I think she just dare not admit that we had never ever EVER said any such thing).
She does NOT get the fact that I attached to her, (stupid me) and my needing to be near her, think of her, trust her, was my “proximity seeking” behaviour and that she WAS my secure base and attachment figure. When I have been feeling fearful or stressed I have had this biological drive in me to feel near her, imagine her, soothe myself. This is a natural drive which humans have in order that we survive as babies. We are driven to our caregivers. unfortunately mine was playing out as a 49 yr old to a woman who was decidedly uncomfortable with it and did not actually want it happening at all. Once the small baby part of me came into my conscious mind, I was having to deal with and feel the emotions and needs of that small baby part. Duh.


If she had understood that, if she had, then she would have had the sensitivity NOT to send such a termination email which so severely re traumatized me that I have been on coping mechanisms since. She cannot even HEAR that. She does not UNDERSTAND that. She is oblivious of that. To her, that is me being a pain. It is not something she wants to know and it is certainly not something she wants to hear. She would deny this. The pain I feel around how she terminated with me, just when I was most attached to her, is beyond her understanding or empathy. She just goes into denial and defensive justification mode. People were right, she just CANNOT hear. No matter how hard I try to tell her, how many times I say it was CRAP timing. It hurt me more than all her good work had done. It undid all my trust and feeling of safety and belief in her. For me, it was like she threw it all back in my face. All of it.

I explained about how I had been transferring the guru, the bully, the false therapist, the boy, my father, all of them onto her when I got angry and the anger was just pouring out of me and she took it so personally. I said that I thought she had counter transference going on, that she was seeing me and reacting to me as someone from her own past and that she was not admitting to that. I did not feel that she was seeing me as me anymore.

I also asked her again whether she truly wanted to continue working with me and she protested again that she was committed to working with me and wanted to keep working with me until Christmas as she had said. I just don't believe her. I just don't. In a room full of anger and irritation and annoyance and frustration, not of acceptance or kindness or understanding, - how can I feel that she truly WANTS to keep working with me when she has such strong negative emotions towards me that she keeps denying.

When i said that I do not feel safe now in this room to say how I feel, she did not hear that I do not feel safe NOW, so she started to say things like “did you not feel safe when you disclosed the stuff around the boy” (OW! OW! do NOT bring up things I have not been able to talk about, that I could only let you read about, not even speak about myself, do NOT bring up sensitive issues just to fight your own corner! I was really terrified then that she might bring up even more sensitive stuff, stuff she knew would floor me completely and leave me unable to speak or even walk upright out of that room.)

She kept on; “did you not feel safe when you told me about the things you found hard, when we sat on the floor and did that kind of work together? Was that a lie? Was that untrue? Tell me, as I am now confused – I thought you felt safe then?” She was angry and challenging and not in a mindful place, she was feeling on the attack. And she took offence at that, that I should say that I do not feel safe with her.
I replied, “ I did feel safe then but I do not feel safe now, when I tell you things now, you use them against me. You use them to back up your own view and arguments. I do not feel safe even telling you this. I am not safe here in this moment. That is my truth.”

I was trying so hard but what was so sad was that is was all so pointless as whatever I said, she could not hear, would not hear.

She said that she thought that last week we had a break through, that I had stopped this raging and anger. She did not understand why it had gone back. Neither did I, except that I was still objecting to being labelled by her as having too complex issues, as being too much for her, as being a more severe mental health problem. etc etc. (HOW does she NOT understand that I trusted her and grew to love her and let her in to my most vulnerable pains and hidden shames, and when she turns around and dismisses me like that, it traumatizes me. How can she NOT understand that? )

She just gets exasperated at that and almost cries out at me “ I cannot give you what you said you needed, more time, more interim support.” I said that one session a week was probably all I needed since i turned around, since that awful Friday, that I had only blown once in 16 months, and that if that termination letter had not come we might have worked well and mostly finished the work by Christmas, that I did not think there was that much to go. I objected to the way she and my doctor made that decision – to pass me on – to non existent mental health with she said “provide the additional time, support and back-up which is available to those working in secondary services,” but turns out not to be true. No one asked me. No, I was discounted in the decision making. I was obviously not worth asking, my opinion did not matter. I think that added to my anger.

I truly heard that she thinks :
I work with 8 week session or 12 or 16. you got over a year. I cannot do more and you cannot hear that.” But I counter : “ you did do more, you did a year, I do not understand how you do not understand that I experienced you moving that boundary for me before and then deciding NOT to shift it again.” She says she was over ruled, by my doctor, but he made the decision based on what she said. She THEN said “ and your need for 30 minute phonecalls.” God, I thought we had BEEN through this. That I asked for 10 minute phone calls and I kept reminding her of the time and SHE allowed the phone calls to go to 30 minutes. She is the one keeping the boundaries here. And she breaks her boundaries and blames ME! Again! She does not see how unethical that is, breaking her own boundaries and blaming the client. Sigh. She just HAS to blame me. She just does not get that.

At this point SHE said with great exasperation, sweeping her hands down her skirt in a gesture of finality and getting rid of something: “ I think that this should be our last session, there is no point in continuing.” It was said in anger and frustration and irritation and annoyance and it was not said kindly or as a kind suggestion. I felt hit. Of course. I felt kicked actually. I could not speak for several moments and had my face buried in my arm. It felt like a knife had plunged into my heart and was taking the breath out of me. I visualised Jenny being there and holding my hand and I tried to breathe. I knew then I was in danger. I knew then that Jenny was right, that going back to this C was damaging to me, was actually re traumatizing me – but I had not believed it. I had not believed that my attempts to make this C acknowledge what pain she had caused in what she had done, was going to cause me so much more pain.

She said she wanted to tell me what her overview of the whole work we had been doing together was/is. Was that okay by me? I said yes, but I really wanted to say no as I could tell that she was ready to fire something at me that she really felt I needed to know and which would hurt me very much indeed. I was already hurting right in the hole where my heart centre is meant to be and I should have said no, but – of course – I could not say no. I wish I could say no.

So she started tentatively – saying many times that this was only her opinion and that it may not be right. – (but she did have to say it didn't she, she just could not resist saying it, even though she must have some inkling that I am so wide open and hurting right now, but no, it was more important for her to say it, than to think of the consequences on me.)

She said that she looks back and we have looked at the issues of India, the bullying, my father, the boy, my core pain, and they all tie up and are interlinked for me. And that somewhere I learnt how to get care and kindness, i learnt ways to do that. I became very good at that, very skilled at that. And that that is what I want most. Over and over again I have said to her: “I want you to care”, this is paramount to me. “You are wanting care. That is what you do. You find ways to get it. You are very good at that. You have found many ways to get good at that.”

I heard this as : you manipulate people to give you care and that is all that you do, want care and find ways to get care. I said that. And I said that I have not been in therapy for 15 years, there are vast chunks of my life where I am giving and working and not in this state. I felt deeply judged and deeply misjudged.

But she said she did not mean to judge me, she was just saying that I was very good at it, that I had learnt many ways to be very good at getting care.

I look at my life and see so much emptiness of not caring and wonder if I was that good at it, why did I not have a life full of feeling cared for? And if I was so good at it, why was I still doing it? And if this was true, how do I mend it? And if this is a problem, why is it there?

But that was her assessment of me.

Yes, it hurt. Yes, it still hurts. Because, like the bully, I have to take it in and see if it is true and if it is, work with what they say. Face it.

I feel judged, though. It IS a judgement.

She also said that all the methods, all the therapies agree that with attachment issues, you contain the client to the sessions, you keep it contained just within session and no time out of sessions. I said that I knew of people who were given more stepping stones, who got through the dependent stage which is so unbearable by being allowed to lean on their therapist with phone calls and emails. She raised her eyebrows at that one. She hates it when I don't take her word for gospel.

What do we do with me? I have this raging screaming hurt part inside and a set of neural pathways screaming for care and kindness and feeling utterly unloved and abandoned and so this C abandons me and judges me for wanting her so desperately to care. I see my life as being so fiercely protective of the part of me that feels so uncared for , hiding it, and only letting this C see it and know it because I grew to trust and love her, and she throws all that back at me: “Look at you! This is what is wrong with you! I cannot resist telling you even though it may damage you terribly now to hear it!”

Oh god. And then, I tried, oh foolish me, to TELL her how much this was hurting me but even as I told her, I was aware of her eyes just distancing herself, not wanting to know, fearing my pain somehow. Like it might pull her in if she really heard. I tried to say. I said 'my heart feels like it is breaking, I know there is very little point in telling you this, but it does. I feel so hurting. This is hurting so much.” so she said that if we do meet again maybe we could work on what that pain is and look at it. Ouch. She meant well by that, but has no idea that I would feel dissected by her now, not lovingly and kindly heard or met in my pain.

Oh god.

At least she said “ I do not think I am helpful to you anymore. I do not think I CAN help you anymore.” At least she admitted that. She also said that she had been caring and there for me and really fought for me and that she has done everything she could for me and that was not enough for me. She implied that the problem is mine. I said that it takes two to make a mess such as this. It is so easy for her to see it as the client being difficult or unreachable or resistant or whatever – it takes all the scrutiny off her.

My heart feels truly broken. I am physically aching with a pain that is beyond knowing really and there is nothing I can do. I hold this pain in my gentlest holding and wonder why oh why there is something so wrong with me that I feel this. It keeps me awake, it wakes me when I do sleep, it hurts like a sharp knife in my heart and I am blamed for it and shamed for it, and turned away from because of it. It is a terrible thing. I have lived with it hidden, hidden as much as i could hide it but of course it has leaked out in my life and now I am judged for it and shamed for it again.
I do not know what to do with me and I am losing hope. It seems very bleak. I was hoping for a satisfactory ending, but that is just not going to happen here. Just not.
It has stirred up the worst pains and it has just left me to be in that. With no support and no care, except Jenny and the frantic attempts to find a private therapist and for me to find ways of working to pay for that. I am even thnking of going back to working for the bully in order to earn money fast enough to pay for private therapy. What a fiasco.
I have never felt so taken apart, so dismantled, so opened up, and then so judged and attacked and criticised and found wanting, lacking, inadequate and not good enough. It feels like she got hold of the littlest part of me at last and ripped her to tiny shreds. With her teeth.

How do I see me? (What, my opinion might be worth something? Shock horror!)

I see me as someone who has had a raging pain, a need to be cared for, since I was burnt at six months old and then in hospital for surgery until I was four years old. And this was in the days when mothers were not allowed to stay with their children. I think that I have felt that desperate raging screaming need for care inside me but not known what it was, just felt it as an unbearable need that would surface from time to time, especially when I was vulnerable. It made me go back to people who were hurting me as their hurting of me made me vulnerable which made the deep need for care surface in me again and so I would go back for the smallest crumb of care which they might offer me.
I look at my life and see how much I fought and worked on hiding that need, to myself and to others. How being in a role of care giver hid it very well and I nearly believed it myself, that it was no longer there.
I was and am still deeply ashamed of it, which is why I find it so painful to have it pointed out so starkly.
when I felt that need in my late teens and early twenties, I felt out of control and tried to get some control by getting my life in order, being academic and being attractive, losing weight and then finding I was anorexic and I dare not put on weight because it brought the tearing need for care back.
I occasionally found it leaked out from the age of about 15 onwards, and I then did or said something inappropriate that I felt ashamed of and confused about. I felt there was something wrong with me but that if I could just bury it deep enough it would not be there anymore and then I would be okay.
My therapists are the only people who were able to uncover that need, but it took such trust from my side to let that happen. Because, I feared, like this C has done, that they would run from it, criticise me for it, shame me for it, and point it out to me as a failing and a mental illness.
Alan (GoodFinder) has run from it, this C has held it up in the air and dangled it in front of me as a flaw and problem in me that needs mental health services and Alex (FalseFinder), well he manipulated that need in me for his care, for his own ends. The Bully (trickster) saw it and knew it and flung it back in my face and belittled me for it. Sigh.
Jenny (FirstFinder)saw it, and knows it and does give me advice on it, but it is done so kindly that I can hear. She does not say things because she is angry or annoyed at me and cannot help herself even though it will hurt me, she tends to pause and think whether it will be helpful to me or not. The C thought she was doing that, but she was not, often she just could not help herself saying things.

So now that I know this about myself, what do I do about it? Hide it again? I think not. If I come close to another therapist, it will resurface in all its gory, agonizing need and torment. I wish there was a way through it that did not require feeling its pain and living with it moment by moment with the sleeplessness and trauma symptoms pounding through my body.

I wish there was a kind and gentle way to heal this.
I wish someone had the wisdom to guide me through this respectfully.
Phoned my old T and she is so helpful. she says part of the problem is that this C offered stuff and then withdrew it, and is kind of punishing me. The comment on my blog would make sense if I was not in a situation where she started with offering and then withdrawing, as it feels like the care is being withdrawn.If you want to withdraw support you negotiate with the client.

She also said that one way to work through this deep attachment pain and the need around it is to find a therapist who won't be distracted by my colourful trauma history and tell this T that they MUST not let me have contact with them AT ALL between sessions, no matter how hard I beg and plead and push and have Crisis. And remind Me that I told them to do that, and they are doing it because they care. that might work.
sigh

She also said something quite radical. She said that if I could work on this for two solid days with a good T, then I could work through it and just need some mopping up sessions.

wow. that is quite a thought.

wonder if she might be offering!!

anyway, I feel I am slightly talking to myself here, not sure anyone is reading any of this, but it helps me to write it all and at least I am anonymous.
Hi Sheychen,

I am really very sorry that you are experiencing all this pain with your C Frowner. Your old T sounds like she really understands you and you seem to have a good relationship with her…is there any way that you could continue working with her at all? Sorry if you have already explained this and I have missed it.

Your sessions with C sound like they are following in the same pattern of you expressing your hurt and feeling unheard and her saying she cares but she can’t offer you what you need. Each time you go and see her you are investing a little bit more of yourself, which in turn leaves you feeling more hurt and abandoned when it doesn’t work out…it sounds like the relationship is longer beneficial to your healing.

I know you are deeply attached to her which is why you want this to work so much...it's really hard stuff...but I do believe that you can work through the attachment you feel for her with a T who has more experience and an understanding of what it is like to feel attached – no it is not so simple as to deal with it in one session as your C says...it hurts sooo much Frowner….I really feel she doesn’t understand at all and I am really feeling for you for not being understood. You deserve to be working with a T who is more experienced not only with attachment but also at being able to work with you at a deeper level to help you and your littles to work through all the trauma that you have so sadly experienced.

I know a private T would cost a lot of money but they are also able to offer the kind of support that just isn’t available via the doctors and you have the choice of finding one who you feel is right for you and able to offer what you need. You will have much more control.

((((((Sheychen)))))) Sending you lots of hugs as you work through what would be best for you.

Butterfly
quote:
She also said that all the methods, all the therapies agree that with attachment issues, you contain the client to the sessions, you keep it contained just within session and no time out of sessions.


Hi Sheychen,
I’d like your C to have a talk with my T as he has said many times that his contact policy is based on his understanding that when you are an attachment figure for your client, you can never know when those attachment needs will rise up and so it’s very important to allow the client access to you. Not that there aren’t boundaries to that connection, but the connection is available.

I am sorry for the pain you continue to be in, and I do think that it would be a good idea to just let go with your C as any further sessions seem to be just causing more pain.

Sheychen, I noticed something in your post that I want to point out to you, but I know it might be very difficult to hear right now. So I want to be very clear about a few things up front before I say it. I definitely think your C was out of her depth and did not have the abilities or capacities she needed to cope with your trauma history. Most egregriously, her consistent failure to hold her own internal boundaries and then insist on making your responsible for her failure was so wrong and the complete opposite of what I believe she should have been modeling for you. And those lacks on her part, led to her re-traumatizing you. I think it is clear that despite your strong feelings for her, she is not capable of giving you what you need to heal and you need to find someone else to work with. I am in no way blaming you for how this turned out. OK? I find your feelings very understandable because I have felt so many of them.

But knowing that you need to go on and work with another T to heal is what makes me want to point something out. That you spend a lot of time either deciding how your C feels despite what she says or not believing her when she tells you how she feels. I went through your post and clipped out the parts that I think support this view.

quote:
I still feel that she got angry and reacted after that Friday. She denies this. She insists she is doing and has always done what is genuinely in my best interests. She cannot seem to admit that she is still annoyed and irritated.


quote:
She is judging me for it, not hearing my pain around it. She cannot seem to help herself.


quote:
That 10% is the bit that I feel she cannot bear. That to her, was wrong. It has violated some code that I did not know about. It made me beyond her ability to care and truly be there for me. Who has pushed her in her own life or 'upped the anti' that she then put those feelings of 'this is too much, this is beyond what I can accept' on to me?


quote:
She protested that she did not feel I was manipulating her ...


quote:
Anyway, now it does not matter because no matter how much I protest that I am not that bad, she sees me as 'that bad' and is sticking to it. And she truly has me in a “that bad” box, a very tight box, and no matter what I say or do, she is going to keep me in her tight box. She cannot do otherwise, otherwise she would have to question herself and other motives in her for what she did.


quote:
And again I asked why she could not have fought for me. And she AGAIN went back to saying she thought I knew that we were terminating at Christmas anyway.( god – to me that is so untrue – so utterly untrue and I think she just dare not admit that we had never ever EVER said any such thing).


quote:
I also asked her again whether she truly wanted to continue working with me and she protested again that she was committed to working with me and wanted to keep working with me until Christmas as she had said. I just don't believe her. I just don't. In a room full of anger and irritation and annoyance and frustration, not of acceptance or kindness or understanding, - how can I feel that she truly WANTS to keep working with me when she has such strong negative emotions towards me that she keeps denying.


quote:
And she took offence at that, that I should say that I do not feel safe with her.


quote:
I heard this as : you manipulate people to give you care and that is all that you do, want care and find ways to get care. I said that. And I said that I have not been in therapy for 15 years, there are vast chunks of my life where I am giving and working and not in this state. I felt deeply judged and deeply misjudged.

But she said she did not mean to judge me, she was just saying that I was very good at it, that I had learnt many ways to be very good at getting care.


One of the first things that my husband and I had to deal with in couples’ therapy was that we were both making huge assumptions about how the other person was feeling without checking in to see if we were correct and at other times, we would flat out NOT believe what the other person was saying about how they felt. It took a long time, but I had to learn to recognize that no matter how strong my feelings were, they might not be the TRUTH. That my husband really would know better than I how HE felt. I remember asking my T one time, well then how do I learn if my feelings are an accurate reflection of the truth? And he told me, you have to ask. So one of the things that became central to my therapy was going back time and again to my therapist and asking him, are you angry? are you frustrated? do you want me to go away? That part was terrifying but what was really difficult was believing his answers despite how I was feeling.

I made an emergency call to him one night, and he called back but was pretty short and got me off the phone as quickly as possible. I had a bit of a meltdown and ended up writing him a very LONG email. I went staight to him experiencing “compassion fatigue” and asking if maybe we needed to take a break so we wouldn’t destroy the relationship. But I also asked if my perception was correct, that I couldn’t always trust myself. I got a great answer. He told me that he WAS rushed and he understood how that could come across as irritated, but that he wasn’t irritated at all. And that it was always good to check my perceptions with him, especially if I thought something was wrong. He managed to tell me I was wrong, but could trust myself all at the same time. And he made it perfectly clear that he understood exactly where these strong fears were coming from.

This is one of the things that makes attachment injuries such a hell to heal from. Even when the T is doing everything they need to, providing consistent care and clear boundaries, we often perceive a lot of negative things coming from them. My Ts ability to remain non-defensive about my feelings and be open to discussing them was a big part of me healing. That is the part that I think is missing from your C. Non-defensive is not her strong suite, nor is she very good at holding boundaries. But when you find a T who does have those skills is when you then have to deal with your own stuff, and I know for me that meant that no matter how much my T cared, or how warm and available he was, there were times when I could not see it nor trust it. And what was worse, were the times I could feel it, but have to deal with the fact that it still wasn’t enough. And from what I saw in your post, I think this is an area that you also struggle in.

Please don’t lose hope, Sheychen, as your experience with Jenny proved, there are good, caring therapists out there who understand these injuries and know what to do to help you heal from them. That can see in you a worthwhile, strong, resilient person who managed to survive all that you did and is struggling to leave behind beliefs and behaviors that while allowing you to survive have outgrown their usefulness.

AG
AG - as always your posts are chock full of good stuff that helps all of us .... your T sounds amazing .... but so do you ... you had the courage to go back and ask and keep asking .... that's the hard part for me .... I never realized how deep my attachment issues were until I read all this stuff and it is very informative ... so thank you to all of you!

I just wanted to comment on Sheychen's C ... it does in fact sound like she's limited and it sounds like you're trying to get blood from a stone .... It's so hard to start over .... I see myself acknowledge that all the time .... I'm having some difficulty now starting over in some arenas but I'm acknowledging that I'm having difficulty and allowing that room ... but also acknowledging that it would benefit me in the long run if I can learn how to form new relationships .... and to let go of old ones when they come to a natural or unnatural end .... there's so much emotional pain out there ... not just within us but within the people we are interacting with all the time and our emotional pain is clashing with their emotional pain ....

It's just quite possible that your C is experiencing her own emotional pain that she hasn't dealt with and this is the reason she can't connect with your emotional pain .... It may not be that she doesn't want to help you ... she just can't help you .... and it would be to your benefit to find someone who can help it ....
Hey guys ... can I ask a question? I'm thinking that I have these attachment issues from childhood but the trauma didn't happen until I was 18 or 19 .... so how do the two interact???? I always feel this need/pain connection ... whenever I feel like I need someone, I run .... is that from the trauma or the attachment issues??? Or both????

And by the way, my T never called me even though I asked him to in my letter ... I will go to my appointment on monday .... if nothing else to see what I can learn .... I'm curious to know why he hasn't called and have come up with several explanations that he might offer me .... 2 that I would trust (one being he didn't get the letter ... the other being that he got it but didn't open it and decided to open it when I am in session with him) ... the other scenerios .. that he was too busy, etc .... I would have a harder time trusting ... I also think even if he did save opening the letter for when we are together, that i would feel a bit put out that he didn't call to say, I got your letter but it's my policy to open them when you come in for your session and read them together.... so I'm not exactly sure how I would feel about that one either .... I was frozen with fear all day yesterday waiting for him to call .... what an asshole, huh?

But my point being, that he has to know that even if my letter WAS NOT filled with venom and had all good things in it, which it did, that I would be waiting for a response .... and I very specifically asked for a phone call in my letter ... but besides that, he has to know that if someone writes a letter they'd expect a response and by not responding he is causing emotional pain ... and it seems to me that responding would be the considerate thing to do ....
He always calls between 10 and 10:30 and now it's 10:37 ... and he's off tomorrow for the weekend so now I know he won't call today and I will have to wait to see him on Monday ... so at least I can let go of it and move on with my life today .... and for the weekend ... Halloween is coming!!! One of my favorite holidays! Happy Halloween everyone!
Thank you - again the support here is wonderful.
I emailed the C and asked her if she is still willing to work with me on this attachment pain if I contracted with her to NOT have any contact except sessions and I got my support in between from elsewhere. I am only doing this, because I have not found another therapist. And yes, I do wonder AG if what I think she is feeling is not at all what she is feeling. She seems to think this. My Ex T thinks we are actually at some kind of break through point if we could only come to some amicable way forward, it might not be for too long. But we have hurt each other so much it may not be repairable. Frowner
If I had someone else to work with - I would have moved by now. I DID wonder if my ex T who lives 5 hours away, would work with me for a bit, but she is not a 'T' anymore, she is retired, but she is such a maverick that she just might do it for me. We already do phone calls and she might just might sort out a way we could work intensively for a few days. She is good at that, that is the way we used to work. And I tell you , she knows me inside out. She is a worthy adversary, she is strong and she is capable and she is canny. I think my toddler definately met her match with her before when we worked together and I feel so SAFE with her.
so that idea is floating a bit. I suspect that either my C will say she just CANNOT keep going with me, or that we shall have ANOTHER awful session next week and HAVE to end OR
big 'or'
next Wedsnesday we meet and we turn it around.

Anyone willing to place bets on that?

Also I have the psychologist ringing me on Friday 5th to hear what I have decided about working with him.I am scared of working with him as he is not necessarily trained enough in psychotherapy.

Oh well, I am going off to Wales for the weekend and hoping to get some space and clarity and perspective from there. I really appreciate your support. I was a bit thrown by that very blunt comment on my blog that I posted above somewhere, but who ever wrote that does not understand that my C and I have some complicated threads going,and her withdrawing support which WAS there, has definately complicated matters. That blog comment was just not understanding the depth of the pain I carry and the fact that I need help through this, but yes, I need to learn to care for me, find that inside me.
got to dash, might post more later, thanks butterfly, Ag and Liese, glad you are finding it helpful to you Liese, and Butterfly and Ag - thanks for your insights too.
Hey Sheychen,
I was the one that said - you need to find a T that is more clever than you. (actually, I said smarter than you. Here in the states, sometimes clever has negative connotations) Someone who is rock solid with boundries. Someone consistant in there love.

When I first started with me T, I told him right up front- I need someone stronger, smarter than me, and I did not think he was the one. He assured me that was. And he is.
I only know one T. So I did not know how the whole therapy thing worked, so I was bold in the beginning, nice- but bold. You can do that with your next T.
Have a relaxing time in Wales- be good to all the parts of you!!!
Mayo
I am intending to finish with her on Wednesday - by giving her a note thanking her for what help she did give me. I feel like my heart bleeds just thinking about ending, and of course the smallest part of me cannot BELIEVE I am going to end - I would not wish this pain and this despair on anyone. I had a really painful weekend, at a sort of therapy weekend where I was just triggered and eventually just shut down - but had to stay for another day becauseother participants drove me there. I felt so lonely in the group, feeling my own physical hurting and not able to know what to do with it, whilst they just continued with their own processing. It was horrible.
Sheychen, I am so very sorry for your pain.
My words sound empty and hollow - even to me, but what more can I, can we do. I will pray that you find the help you need and the answers you seek- to comfort you in your sorrow. Whether you believe in prayer or not, does not matter, I do- and so I will pray for you.

Mayo
thank you Mayo for your prayers and for your kindness Liese, I shall be okay. I am learning so much in this process and I am not the first person to have major dissonance with their T when they get to the real core issues.
I just find that I keep thinking 'Maybe I can keep going with her?" it is like a part of me just cannot accept what I am intending to do.
Found this in a book I read today
"There are two fundamental difficulties in the therapeutic treatment of emotional trauma clients.
The first is what we could call 'collision of objectives' which means those goals usually accepted as valid in therapy (understanding one's own problems, 'healing oneself, undertaking constructive changes in one's life etc) are not the client's priority aims. Initially the client does not want to heal himself; to one extent, she is proud of the symptomatology she presents, as it is witness to the atrocities that she has gone through in life. What she is looking for in the therapeutic bond is exactly this witness function; someone who sees and disagrees with the injustices that were committed against her. And she also wants (it is here that the therapeutic job becomes much more complicated) the therapist to compensate her for everything she has gone through; she wants to be gratified for her immediate needs, be taken care of and comforted. And even more, she wants an intense and special relationship to feel important. Apparently, these clients' implicit speech is always: :" I cannot get better unless you, the therapist, demonstrated that you care about me personally."

From Emotional Survival:Childhood Pain Lived in the Adult Drama. by Rosa Cukier.
Wow that is heavy, Sheychen .... Can I ask you why it's not uncommon to have dissonance with your T when you reach your core issues? And what are people talking about what they talk about core issues?

I just have to say that even though my session yesterday with my T was brutal, I am finding comfort in his boundaries ... in the fact that I don't have to look for them ... I know where they are ... and they are very tight .... It would cause me so much anxiety to have a T who didn't seem to have boundaries and let me keep needing him and reaching out in different ways .... looking for that line ..... that to me, would be brutal .....
From my own experience, when I have got to the core issues, my own volatile suppressed feelings come up in waves and strongly. These can really fly around the therapy room and are often aimed - at the poor therapist. My own therapist likes to see herself as a good kind stable person and I throw such anger at her and she gets defensive and then i feel unsafe and we have dissonance.

Core issues? For me they are usually not the presenting issue, the ones that bring us to therapy in the first place, but the ones that take some times, sometimes years, to uncover, the ones that are the foundation of why we respond or react the way that we do, why we have formed the way we have. for example, I have been through major traumas in my life, sexual assaults and rape in my 20's and physical abuse from my father as a kid, and sexual abuse and rape as an 8 yr old, and also sexual abuse in my 30's from a therapist, and all those issues fascinate therapists who see them as really meaty issues to get stuck into looking at, but ACTUALLY the major trauma in my life that created the way I responded/reacted to all those later ones, was that I was badly burnt at a small baby and was in hospital til I was about four having operations. The worst was when I was 3 3/4. I remember that one really clearly and how i reacted, i closed down emotionally and turned away from my care givers. So that is a core issue for me and that is what I did from then on, when vulnerable.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it is brutal for me that my C does not keep firm boundaries, she waives them a bit out of kindness and then she changes her mind and firms them up in an over the top way and none of this is negotiated, she just implements it, so I of course feel punished, like it was my fault and I am being punished for them being waivered or wobbled, when actually, SHE wobbled them and then panics. It leaves me angry with her and feeling uncared for - cos what was there is taken away.

It is very unprofessional. and it causes me grief to say the least. the worst is when she blames me outright for her own boundary issues.
I see her today, my C, and I am taking in an 'ending letter' which I am sort of intending to give her, depending on what happens in the first half hour or less. I don;t want her ENDING on me today, so I feel a bit prepared this way.
there is also the possibility we might put all this ending anger and stuff to one side and work on the issue of the three year old turning away from care and closing down emotionally.

I should leave this C, but I am so heart enmeshed with her, it is frantic if I try to really do it. i have been awake from 4am this morning and don't see her to til 1pm. I shall be tired out by the time I get there as I am working this morning. Sigh. I would like to ask for you to wish me luck but I think I need far more than luck.
I feel slightly sick but there is an underlying relief.
I went in there for the session today, with my ending letter and thank you card in my bag ready to hand over. I just let it unfold.
what unfolded was good in that it confirmed that ending is the right thing to do.


NewFinder quietly told me why she does not feel continuing is a good idea. All the reasons that I thought she did not want to continue with me, came out. I was right. She is just not up to being able to handle what I am going through. At least that is confirmed.


She said that did not want me coming into the room angry one day and not angry the next and not knowing which one it will be and sometimes 'you are even angry before you get IN the room!" (Shock horror, how awful of me.) Also she said the therapeutic relationship requires respect. So I said ' are you saying I do not respect you?"
"no that is not what I am saying" and so several seconds went by until I finally deduced that she meant she did not respect ME. Goodness. I have not had a therapist not respect me before, as I work hard, I admit my failings, I struggle through pain and I work hard at changing and using my resources to help me. I just looked at her and realized that all the time I have been hoping and trying to see that she is BETTER than she is. She also said that she did not WANT to work with me anymore and did not think she could help me anymore. She also felt that the therapeutic rupture/fracture could not be mended. I heard all that and just handed over my ending letter. I said that since the termination email, I did not think the therapeutic relationship could be mended, as I was so disrespected, decisions were made about me without consulting me and with assumptions made about me that are neither accurate nor informed. I also said that I was passed on in that termination letter to a non existent secondary services "better care" because it would provide more care and more support which it does not and so I am now left with no support at all. I said that did not show that a duty of care had been fulfilled at all. I also asked her not to draw out the more hurt and hidden parts in another client and then terminate with them because the depth which came out was too much for her to handle. She said it was my choice - I chose to bring that out, that she did nothing to make it come out and I told her, with a soft voice and quite kindly, not to be so naive. I said that she worked to encourage me to trust her and reveal and I did and when that material was so painful and so full of anger and pain, she decided this was out of her remit. I asked her NOT to do that to another client. I also asked her to write out a contract with each client so that they know how long they have with her and not to leave it vague as it can be very damaging to end earlier than you thought.
She was actually defensive, she came out with some choice judgements of me and when I pointed out that they were actually judgements she denied it and when I pointed out that this lack of clear understanding between us has been part of the problem for the last two months, she said that she heard I was frustrated by not being able to hear her clearly.
At which point I gave up. She kept saying things back at me, like if I said " you often think you have said something, like the fact you insist you told me we would end by Christmas and actually you did not" and she would say, "you feel angry that you did not hear clearly what I said to you."
It is enough to drive anyone mad.


I feel relief to have got away. Several times this session I just looked at her, feeling incredibly calm and tried to see if I was projecting onto her and mishearing and you know, amazingly, my sense of her and what is going on, is ACCURATE. I was just denying it for so long.
She is as frustrated and resentful at being hurt by my anger as I thought. Her comments today confirmed that.
My god. What a fiasco of therapy.
I wanted to believe she had more depth than she has, more insight and breadth than she has, and I was trying hard not to see that I was working with someone who was a counsellor who could work on small issues and not someone who could handle depth. I think from the Friday that I really let my pain out to be seen, she has resented me. That crossed a line for her that has never been forgiven.
It is amazing how I was picking this all up for a whole month but projecting kind and caring counsellor on to her even though her words and actions were not backing that up.
Sigh.
Even though I was still prepared today to work through it, she was not, so I ended.
I said I have not ended before so I am not sure what to do but she suggested we have some session to work on things that are left. I said that I did not think working on things was a good idea anymore and that I did not want to draw out the painful ending process any more than was necessary. I suggested we meet next week just for an hour when we both said the good things about the last 16 months. It seemed a good idea at the time but it is going to be hard to do that after what I witnessed today.
quote:
It is amazing how I was picking this all up for a whole month but projecting kind and caring counsellor on to her even though her words and actions were not backing that up.



Sheychen, I feel for you .... and I do what you did up there in the quote ... I try to ignore the warning signals ... I have to get better at listening to those! Sometimes it's just good to know when it's over .... when it's really over ... no more guessing, could I have done this? could I have done that?
Liese, no rupture is when things are going really bumpy and sometimes fall apart, much better if it doesn't happen. If it does, then sometimes it is a signal that things are going very deep and both client and therapist are finding it hard, but apparently it is often the point before real breakthrough. I have experienced that with other T's. Here it was just pure rupture, she got to the point where she actively disliked me. No way through if that is happening. And I look back and remember how insistent she was that she had unconditional love .... unconditional. well, it turned out there were an awful lot of conditions hiding in the wings.
someone really vulnerable would have been devastated by what happened today - the things she said about me and what she implied - but actually thankfully I can see that she really was not up to the job and that is TRULY HER problem and not mine.
Still feel queasy tonight though. Guess that is to be expected. I had grown to love and trust and believe in her over 16 months and then in two months it all shattered from her side. I shall find it very hard when I DO find a new T to believe that I can tell them ANYTHING and they won't run in horror and feel I am beyond the normal range of human experience. sigh.
But my old T feels I am an amazing caring and competent adult and very sane but carrying some huge emotional pain but she does NOT disrespect me for it, she admires me for how much I have grown and how I work so hard and am committed to learning what my difficulties are and what resources I can nurture in myself and how I can change some of my unhelpful patterns.
Sheychen .... It sounds like this woman shouldn't be a C ... but what do I know??? we just never know what issues some of these people come to the table with .... and the warning signals are there for a reason .... even if mine overreacts, it's still telling me that I'm uncomfortable ... maybe the danger isn't as bad as my body thinks it is ... but I do need to listen to it .....

I was wondering about the interaction between rupture and corrective emotional experience ..... ?????
Hiya,

From my perspective, I suspect rupture is a very necessary part of the therapeutic relationship.

Permanent perfect attunement is not a reality in human relationships.

We move in and out of synch with the people around us all the time. When we are robust inside, have good relationship skills and/or don't have a lot at stake in a relationship what happens is we get out of attunement, can notice it, and use our skills to get back into attunement with the other and ourselves - such as checking out our perceptions against reality, distinguishing new hurts from old hurts, communicating our feelings, hearing and accepting the communications of others, assessing danger, making choices to move closer or further away, letting go of hurt.

But when we have a really vulnerable sense of self, are not strong at some of those skills and/or we have lots and lots at stake, little ruptures quickly become big ruptures. And when we're living in that place, letting someone know us at all is a huge risk, because we don't know how to fix things when they go wrong. We only know that when things start to go wrong they get worse.

So I think a lot of therapy is about learning how to extend our skills at feeling, hurting, surviving and repairing the misattunements at higher levels of risk than we are used to. If our repair skills outstrip the risk, the ruptures are not catastrophic, might even be enjoyable as 'spark' in a relationship. If the risk outstrips our repair skills, the ruptures feel terrible - and can be traumatic when the T isn't capable of containing the situation and providing the missing repair skills.

2c, for what it's worth!

Jones
Dear Jones, I agree with you about rupture and I wrote to my now EX C - last thursday saying much the same:
"Dear C, I found a quote "staying put and resolving conflicts instead of moving on is often the most valuable therapeutic work you can do."
MY previous T of 20 yrs ago also said that she thinks I am at the turning point and that the build up to turning points are usually the time that things fall apart and therapists begin to feel they just cannot cope and clients feel it is all falling apart. but my previous T of 20 yrs ago thinks we are mostly through this bit, if we could both work forward from here, respecting each others strengths and weaknesses.
Just a thought, please tell me if you think it is a worth a try."

And I was ready to work through this, I thought it would be fruitful for us, I was open to this, but I walk in and SHE says no, she has had enough. SHE cannot cope with the pain she feels at the level of anger I brought in, (I have never touched anger before in all the therapy I have done - so it was quite some anger - I at last realized that no human has a right to do what they did to me - they should not have done that).

So in this case, Jones, the client, me was willing over and over to try and mend this therapeutic rupture but it was too much for the counsellor.

I think I objected to your implication in this:
quote:
If the risk outstrips our repair skills, the ruptures feel terrible - and can be traumatic when the T isn't capable of containing the situation and providing the missing repair skills.


My old therapist saw me as constantly trying to 'teach' the counsellor how to come through this, how not to take it personally - how to not slide on boundaries, how to allow anger and other strong feelings, how to acknowledge her weaknesses as I was doing of my own weaknesses. She did not like her weaknesses being pointed out.
You seem to be implying it fell apart because I did not have the repair skills. I hope I have misread you as that is quite a judgement and not what the numerous people who know the situation, think. I was ready until the very last moment to try again with her, believe in her and move forward together finding a way through and learning from it but she was stuck with her active dislike of me and her lack of respect for me (am I some paedohile or rapist or murderer? NO I am a survivor of CSA, childhood trauma and rape - and I got ANGRY - heinous crime! AND I hit terrible pain. this was not acceptable to he.) Another thing she did not like and was not okay by her, I wrote about it on my blog:
"You know one classic remark she made this last session is almost funny. She said with great indignation: " you would be okay one session and I would think S is doing okay again and then NEXT session you would come in angry and all upset. You were just unpredictable. It meant I NEVER knew what was going to happen! There seemed to be absolutely NO REASON for it!" And she was so animated and agitated and indignant saying that. I looked at her and thought " my god this woman does not seem to know what therapy is actually LIKE! That being in different emotions each session can be normal when things are really intense and painful. That small things can trigger and a lot can change in the week between sessions."
But for her that was one more of the unreasonable things that I did that she felt was not acceptable."

I just feel this woman has not done enough work on herself to see her own failings and recognize when she is reacting and getting defensive and angry and so she just would not work with me anymore, did not want to, did not want to look at moving through the immense feelings it was bringing up in her. I was looking FORWARD to mending things, moving through this, it would have been immensely rewarding. but no. The C herself did not have the repair skills.

DeepFried, thank you for your kindness - yes, it was helpful that at last the C admitted to what was going on for her, but she is still well defended. When I said ' so you are saying you are out of your depth," she said "No! I am well WITHIN My depth", Which I just was astonished by, because the fact that she can get all indignant that I get angry in therapy and she did not want to have to be a room with that anymore and then in same breath say she is IN her depth, was astonishing to me.

It was really toxic. It is a huge relief to have ended and I have two possible T's to have phone calls with at the weekend to see if they might have the depth of experience and necessary training and skills to not bail out on me. My ex T of 20 yrs ago thinks this C was truly damaging me. And the fact that I have not gone under with this shows that I am both strong and - ironically- am used to surviving abusive situations and keeping going and not going under. It is a skill I have needed on frequent occasions in my life LOL
MY last entry on my blog:
You know one classic remark she made this last session is almost funny. She said with great indignation: " you would be okay one session and I would think S is doing okay again and then NEXT session you would come in angry and all upset. You were just unpredictable. It meant I NEVER knew what was going to happen! There seemed to be absolutely NO REASON for it!" And she was so animated and agitated and indignant saying that. I looked at her and thought " my god this woman does not seem to know what therapy is actually LIKE! That being different emotions each session can be normal when things are really intense and painful. That small things can trigger and a lot can change in the week between sessions."
But for her that was one more of the unreasonable things that I did that she felt was not acceptable.

The last two things I said before I left the room were:
1. I had a dream at 4am that morning that I am in India again and the false guru is on top of me and I am just waiting for him to get off me and it has now being going on for some weeks and it almost feels normal, I just wait and breathe and know he will get off in about 20 minutes or so. As I lie there I see a movement at the window. the window has bars on it and I see NewFinder's face, looking in. She is seeing what is happening. She does not do anything, but I can see she is upset. It is upsetting her.
2. I tell NewFinder that the one thing I really regret is how when my anger erupted she took it personally and has felt hurt by it, so hurt that she cannot continue anymore. I said that I regret person to person, hurting another human being, hurting her though the words of anger that came spilling out.

I actually am quite amazed that she lost respect for me and actively dislikes me. I could feel that in my gut since the Crisis Friday - and at long last yesterday I had to trust my gut, as her dislike and indignation and anger were flung at me across the room for an hour and a half.

What happened to her unconditional love that she insisted she had, no matter what? If she feels this lack of respect and dislike for me because I let my inner pain break through to see if she cared, because I was so angry sometimes I could not hold it back and the words spilled out, what sort of feelings would she feel to a rapist or a murderer or a paedophile? I find it amazing that I am beyond the pale in her eyes for what I am like - when even I, with my shame and my guilt and self blame, can see that I don't really merit such extreme reactions.

I look back to see 'where it all went wrong' really. And for me it was a day in late May or early June when she went very still and said very quietly " I deeply care about you, I truly care about you and I want to help you with all my heart, you matter to me and I will stick by you no matter how rough it gets. It may get bumpy at times and I may mishear you at times but I am very steady and will not turn away." I heard those words and I let them in, deep inside and I then in the next few sessions experienced the frightened hurt child in me - come out. This is how this blog started - if you look back and read the prologue, it was about two sessions later that she held me and I at last felt the beginnings of defrosting the ice in my heart from way back when and let her kindness defrost me.

And that was when she saw a whole other part of me, and she could not handle it.

Also, the big turning point was Crisis Friday when she panicked and called out my GP to see me and he decided without asking me that I was to be referred to mental health instead of GP counselling.
For some reason when I admitted at the end of that day that I suspected that the child in me just threw a wobbly to get her attention, that I was not going to go around being that bad, it was just the child blowing up from being ignored for seven weeks, she NEVER forgave me for that and the feeling of dislike that I was picking up from her (and I was denying was true) started from then, a month ago.

That was beyond the pale for her.

Tragic.

My god, what HAS her supervisor been doing?

And also, I was willing to work through this awful and painful rupture, I felt that it had huge potential for growth and healing for both of us, but no, she did not want to repair it. SHE felt it was too ruptured, not me. SHE did not want to mend it.
Dear Sheychen,

My apologies for being insensitive to your situation - although this is your thread and I'm really conscious of what's going on with you, I responded in a rush, ducking in and out, and Liese's question got me thinking in the abstract about ruptures - I wasn't trying to comment obliquely on your situation. In the background of my comments is me thinking through my own relationship situations, more than anything.

But I should have taken the time to say what I DO think about your situation - which is that you have done this amazing thing to get to a place where you can see her limitations - and her limitations are shocking for a professional therapist, in my view. I think you have better repair skills than she does. I thoroughly admire the way you have been conscious of the different parts of you, given your littlest ones space and now have found this surge of clarity and strength to move away from this person who is dangerous to you. In saying that I mean no criticism at all that it took you time to do that. You had to feel your feelings, and they were the intensely powerful feelings of attachment that yes, SHE invited. I doubt very much it could have been rushed. I also agree that her comment about your 'unpredictability' is absolutely laughable - not funny, but laughable. I hope she says THAT to her supervisor - while also hoping against hope that her supervisor is not as limited as she is.

quote:
You seem to be implying it fell apart because I did not have the repair skills.


Hmm, I certainly don't mean this in the kind of judgemental way it has come across. I'm sorry I didn't take more time to ground my comments. I guess I'm saying all relationship difficulties can be seen as problems of repair, and where we keep running into difficulties, there's probably some lack in repair skills. Again, I was thinking more in the abstract and about myself than about you in particular. But seen in this light, perhaps this is the work of therapy, and when we seek someone's help with our relationship stuff we are hoping (with more or less urgency) that they can teach us the missing bits. So I guess it is my assumption that you are not so strong on some repair skills, and I know that to be true of myself too, and I assume it to be true of everyone else seeking out therapy for relational difficulties. I'm saying it's the therapist's JOB to teach the missing stuff - so if you *were* missing some stuff, that was the opportunity for therapy - the opportunity you actively sought out. And she let you down. Not at all because you didn't try, but because she is unskilled.

Sheychen, I hope this clarifies where I was coming from. Please let me know if you feel upset about what I wrote, and if there's more I need to say. I'm about to head out of town for three or four days, so if you don't hear back until it's only because I don't have net access.

I wish you very well with finding your balance and the next steps of the recovery you have worked so hard for. I mean it about the admiration.

Take care,
Jones
quote:
But when we have a really vulnerable sense of self, are not strong at some of those skills and/or we have lots and lots at stake, little ruptures quickly become big ruptures. And when we're living in that place, letting someone know us at all is a huge risk, because we don't know how to fix things when they go wrong. We only know that when things start to go wrong they get worse.

Quote from Jones.

Hey Sheychen, not hijacking your thread, but Jones entire reply is so important for me to hear- Thank you Jones-

Jones you describe exactly, exactly wht happened to me last night, and as I run away from him- he is the better repairer. I hear your words in my head, I hear his words in my head, but they have not yet touched my heart as I am the hurting child right now- walled off to protect myself.
Jones
thank you for your respectful and considered reply, it is hard talking via a forum, it is something we could have sorted so easily if talking, but I sincerely appreciate your comments. and yes, I see that you are mulling things over for yourself too.
I did really well trying to repair this, but actually stayed in this fractured therapy space too long as my smallest vulnerable self did not want to believe that my c was really so negative.
I think this forum is great.
sometime I read posts too fast and reply from where I am which is not where someone else is, and I think that I get myself in trouble. But wwe are all trying to help each other. Have a good trip out of town. I shall keep posting as I have to find a therapist who CAN handle me and respect me. sigh.
Sheychen

I also want to second how amazingingly strong you were to recognize what was going on for you and for her and keep them separate so you could see it was time to leave. I know it seems like it took a long time but these are huge overwhelming feelings and they take as long as they take. I hope you find a new T worthy of you soon.

Jones I hope you see this. Thank you so much for your comments about rupture and repair. They provide an incredibly useful framework for how I am in relationships, usually I make sure I don't have much at stake, with my T I have so much invested I'm paralyzed because I think I have a vulnerable sense of self and poor relationship skills. I hope therapy helps me learn how to extend my skills because right now it just feels like a bottomless pit of pain.
Hi Incognito .... So understand about the bottomless pit of pain .... I too think about that how it seems important in developing ourselves as individuals necessarily means that we are not always going to agree with those who are important to us ... and we have to learn how to do that, hopefully assertively and politely ... and learn how to get past it .... that it's not going to mean the end of the relationship .... and we have to learn that asserting ourselves sometimes might mean the end of the relationship if we find that what the other person believes in or is doing is so offensive to us as individuals and have the strength to move on (like sheychen just did) ....but hopefully, with the people who are most important to us .... it shouldn't mean the end of the relationship ... my T always trys to point out that everyone is caught up in their own shit most of the time so it's not that they are being deliberately insensitive .... and that I need to bring my needs to their attention .... of course, if they are being deliberately insensitive, that's a different story .... May we all find some peace today!
Today I woke up missing her and feeling I was so 'bad' - that is why she terminated with me and I deserved it all. I felt 'bad' and terrible and I got the consequences of how I behaved.
I acted out the rage of my three yr old and surprize surprise I got thrown out and she rejected me.
My adult also knows she was the wrong person for me, but it is still bad this morning.
Dear Sheychen
I've followed your story for a while now. You are so brave, insightful and human. You may not feel it but you have probably leapt forward so far by taking control of this dreadful situation which is not of your making. I may not word this properly but your instincts and thinking are so healthy!! You will feel like shit some days 'cause this is so very hurtful but take a deep breath, then another, then another and give yourself a big pat on the back and be a little kinder to yourself 'cause you are still moving forward!! Probably not making much sense but hugely with you.
Many hugs
Morgs
quote:
Dear Sheychen
I've followed your story for a while now. You are so brave, insightful and human. You may not feel it but you have probably leapt forward so far by taking control of this dreadful situation which is not of your making. I may not word this properly but your instincts and thinking are so healthy!! You will feel like shit some days 'cause this is so very hurtful but take a deep breath, then another, then another and give yourself a big pat on the back and be a little kinder to yourself 'cause you are still moving forward!! Probably not making much sense but hugely with you.
Many hugs
Mo


thanks Morgs, I really need to hear that, I am so glad you posted. today is bad too, but yes, you are right, I AM moving forward though it feels like I am moving so back. I FEEL the pain so intensely. I loved her so much, well, all the different parts of me loved her so much, and she can just walk away without a single pang. It is cruel how these people can do this. I don't ever want to be like them.
Hi Sheychen .... So sorry to hear you are feeling bad today.... You really don't know if she is walking away without a single pang .... You don't know what she is feeling .... You only know what you are feeling .... I know exactly what you mean, though ... that's how I feel about this whole therapy process ... I am a tiny part of his life and he is such a huge part of my life .... and I know that when I leave, it will be really painful for me but not at all painful for him .... and it makes me so angry .... But really, who knows what your C's loss is/was??? You can't define it ... She won't share it with you .... But this was your loss .... And you loved .... and that is a beautiful thing ....

I was curious about something you wrote to TN ... something about it's good TN found someone she could rage against .... that you haven't found that yet .... or you haven't been able to do it .... but you also seemed to indicate that because TN did do this that she was further along in the process .... Just wondering what you meant by all that ...??? I do get the sense that my T is looking for anger out of me sometimes ... but I seem to do all the repair work on my own and decide it was his brilliant ploy to get me to see this or see that and I don't stay at the anger stage for very long ....and I've certainly never expressed it to him ... I am wondering why anger is so important to the process? Is it all part of individuation?? I wasn't sure why I have so many issues with transference but I finally found a good explanation on the internet - which was that transference issues are really bad when the family is highly enmeshed .... and that made sense to me ... I guess if I felt valued as a person, I would be able to risk being angry because my needs would be respected ..... but that wasn't the case in my family ....

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions... I value your compassion and your insight ... You are always so quick to say something healing to someone else .... and I know you are hurting today ....

If we look at everything on a bell curve .... and we say, okay, some people don't have a problem being completely self-centered even if it means that other people will hurt .... and then you have the other extreme ... people who can't bare to be even slightly self-centered because they don't want to hurt other people .... Maybe we are all at the far end of the bell curve .... the side that can't stand to be slightly self-centered because we know the pain of not getting our needs met at the expense of others getting theirs met all too well .... but it shouldn't be that the ones at one end get their needs met all the time while the others at the other extreme suffer .... there needs to be more of a balance .... our needs aren't always going to match up to our partners or our T's 100% of the time ... and if we take care of our needs, sometimes it might be at the expense of our T's .... Like my last T that I left .. I wanted to leave her sooner .... but she cried when I tried to leave her the first time and said she knows she's a better than average T, I felt bad for her and I knew maybe she'd feel like she failed if I left so I bought her a card that said above-average something .... and gave it to her ... and stayed longer than I wanted ... and she pushed me harder and faster than I could go .... and I would up developing panic attacks .... so I was taking care of her at the expense of me ....

Even this T ... as much as I like him ... and I really do like him .... I do think he would take it personally if I left .... and sometimes I've wanted to leave just to hurt him .... but I've resisted .... because I know that's not the way I want things to end .... and he is helping me ....
Sheychen,

I have followed along with a lot of your situation but could not bring myself to post because it has felt strikingly similar to the feelings and intensities going on in my own therapy right at the moment.

I apologize for not offering you support and am very sorry your therapy turned out this way. It is a terrible feeling to feel something in your gut but to struggle against it. (*sigh* sooo where I am right now) I have recently been reading "Shouldn't I Be Feeling Better By Now? Client Views of Therapy, Edited by Yvonne Bates" I wish I could say if it was helping or not, but it has been a good read, although also sad to see the ignorance of some of those in the therapy profession. (yeah, I'm a little angry and bitter)

I wish you more success in your future journeys and hope your pain does not have to continue as you seek to improve your life.
Thank you Liese and forlorn.
Liese, - I don't think TN is more or less along the path than me - but I do know that a T who can cope with the client's rage is a good T. that is all. And you don't HAVE to have anger, my problem is that I did not really HAVE anger, or a few times in my life I exploded and wondered "where the heck did THAT come from?" so the anger of September and October was a very very uncomfortable experience for me and I just could not UNDERSTAND or cognitively get a grip on it, it was pure ANGER. And it flew at my Counsellor like you would not believe.

I shall look at that book Forlorn. It is very kind of you to follow my painful thread, and I send you back my own care and kindness for your journey as you too seem to be in a difficult place.

I think I am at a new beginning - but with whom? That is the million dollar question. There are apparently attachment based psychotherapists, who work on that primarily over two years - and know it. And I think I need one of those. The main centre in England is the Bowlby centre in London and I don't know if I could get one near me - no where nr London.

I am going to take it slow and steady finding a new one. I shall interview many and work out who I feel comfortable with. Last time I did this, I worked with the T - a man - for two and half years - the first two with great success and then he sexually abused me. So - sigh - I feel trepidatious to say the least.

I have decided to re-shedule the 'saying the good things' session this Wednesday - to the following week as I have a big conference that starts that day and I would be pushed for time.

so will email her asking for a rain check.

thanks for your support, it really helps. It helps that people like TN have been through this, on my own without this forum - I would have thought I was the only one in the world whose T walked out on them when it got tough.

I still cannot believe she would not work with the rupture and come through it, when I would. I just feel she is smaller than I thought.

My smaller more vulnerable parts are still aghast, in shock, and wailing. Sigh.
Sheychen ... I didn't know about the sexual abuse from that T ... that must have been awful .... I give you so much credit for even thinking about trying again after all you've been through .... These therapists are only people and can only take us as far as they themselves have gone .... And you have to be careful .... we all do .... They are limited by their own growth, eduation, motivation, intelligence and insight ....(just like our parents, I guess) ... maybe we can take whatever we can from each one ... even the bad ... because we can all learn so much about human behavior and frailty ....

So you're going back to C ... for an only saying good things session? ..... I guess it could be a good thing ... It sounds awful though .... I might be too angry at her to make her feel good ..... Maybe you could just let her say good things to you .... I know I'm rotten ... you don't have to tell me ....
I actually just had to email her that I have to postphone this 'saying good things' session (the session was my idea, trying to make the best of a bad job)
but I have to be at a conference earlier than I expected so cannot make Weds. I have asked to meet with her the following week but may not - need more time to think about this.
I feel so deeply hurt by her, but I know that will fade in time.
She feels absolutely professional - from her point of view she is an 8 - 12 week session counsellor who sees people for current life issues or mild depression. I have major trauma and attachment issues which only surfaced once I started seeing her and she has ended with me because I am out of her remit. she feels she is well in order. HOW she did it, she will not look at. She will NOT let in any understanding of how utterly painful and shocking it has been for me. She just won't and can't. She just sighs or gets annoyed with me for being so upset about it. That from my point of view we were working til the end, and from her point of view she could terminate when ever she felt she was out of her depth and then tell me she was in her depth.
urgh

anyway, I don't want to start getting annoyed again.

I have already written to her an email saying what I appreciated and I have also given her a letter saying thank you and being magnanimous and gracious about how she has helped me. I was hoping she would give ME an affirming session - but I am not sure she is up to that.

sigh.

and yes, sexual abuse from a T is devastating. I got him struck off and all my money back. I was in such a state after that, and I never got another T til this latest C. Sigh.

They are all fallible - it is just that I seem to bring out their worst side.

My ex T of 1988-9 never hurt me intentionally and never really did anything too wrong - she just loved me back to as much wholeness as I could manage at the time.

Just hope and pray I find someone who can handle me, I find myself warning them all
Sheychen,

I've been following your thread, but haven't commented much lately because I've been a bit fuzzy headed, but I wanted to say that I think you are handling this really well. I can only imagine how painful this entire situation (and your past T abusing you) has been. I hope you have given yourself a pat on the back for coping through all of this.
STRM ... Hope you are okay ... Noticed you haven't been posting .... Always enjoy your posts ...

Sheychen ... I was thinking tonight about a pinball machine .... and how the ball has to find its way through the course by bumping into the rubber barriers and bumping off again ... and thinking about your C and how it is just a bump off .... You must continue on your way with the least amount of friction possible in order to find your path ... Try not to read too much into about your worth .... The reasons may become clear in the future why things didn't work out if they are not clear now ...
Guys, I just feel so SUPPORTED by you. I found this site JUST at the right time, not realizing what I was about to go through.
I feel amazingly unburdened to have posted what I did on my blog yesterday, an old shame revealed and the world did not collapse.
Of course I am anonymous, but at least two people maybe three, read that and know who I am. gulp!
anyway, I hear you STRM, and you are right, I shall keep reminding myself that I am doing brilliantly. I am actually an amazing woman, I just seem like a bundle of sobbing at the moment but I am not just that, I run a home, I make my family laugh, I cook pancake breakfasts and sing in a choir, play in a band, teach and console friends going through cancer and divorce and ALSO have a chaotic therapy life in which i am emailing about 8 therapists a day to try and find a good one who can help my LostChild heal. At least my life is not boring - ha ha.
Yea, thanks DF - needed that comment. Feel fragile still but also relief to 'come out' with my most hurting shame.
Liese, I like the pinball machine, I feel that I had to move on from that C and only a major storm would have moved me, so major storm we had to have - and now I have left her and will find someone who can handle all this without looking at me as though i am despicable.
It is a blessing in disguise, I know that, it is just hell being IN it right now.
much love and hugs to you all, you are absolutely so supportive and I feel grateful - thank you.
Sheychen ... I posted that in the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep .... and then I read your blog and I hurt for you .... There is no shame in needing love .... I am just glad you weren't offended by my pinball machine anaolgy .... it seemed so ridiculous after I read your blog ... as if it was that easy just to bounce off and keep going ....
It's okay - in a way you are right.
And I have talked with two therapists today and it was clear by just talking with them, that the C was not the right person to work with, she was not trained to that level.

Today one T talked directly to my inner child and before I knew it, I was talking from taht part and then I started shaking and my teeth chattering and I could not think or speak. She said I was releasing trauma stored in the body and then I sort of did what I call 'resting' where I don't hear what people are saying, like I have gone slightly blank and she pointed out that I was dissassociating, and no one explained that THAT is disassociating and so I was amazed - as I do that A LOT.

So two big things - but then I had an hour across bleak rainy moors back home, in driving rain and I was still slightly shaking and she said what would help? So I said (first time ever)"a hot cup of tea would really help" and she said she does not give clients hot drinks.

That seemed so formal to me, I was just in shaking mode and I needed to drive back across the moors in rain and there is no where to GET tea.

so that did not feel so good.

the other T is only 20 minutes away and I talked with her on the phone and she seemed completely unfazed by the issues I was talking about, - BUt cannot see me until January as she is full right now - but SHE said that with attachment and early years trauma it is NORMAL to go through a period of dependancy and so two sessions a week could be helpful then with a phone call even if it was really necessary
!!!!
would cost me an arm and leg

but hey

remember what I have just been through - a huge argument with a C who INSISTED that one session a week was enough and no other contact and her supervisor and her supervisor's supervisor agreed and so I can hardly believe my ears.

but I have not got to meet her, only talk on the phone.

Another interesting thing:
I had an email from the C in my inbox when I got home but I answered my other emails first - cos I wanted to.

that it is thefirst time it is not urgent to open her email immediately.

I am already disattaching, painful though it is.

I see the psychologist tomorrow for an initial assessment (this must be the third!!) and I have told him I only want to work with him for skills training and not therapeutic relationship stuff, i just don't feel he has worked enough on himself, he is only a psychologist for heaven's sake. teh woman across the moors who does not do 'tea' has done 18 years of therapy, which she was a bit sensitive about.

How to work out what to do, how do you make decisions? With me I just let things unfold, and I can always pull out if I don't like someone further down the line


but it makes it so clear already that the C was WAY OUT OF HER DEPTH.
I am amazed that you are tackling this already .... three cheers and a cup of tea for you!!! I think offering tea to patients sounds really nice ... especially when they have a long drive across the moors!!!

Little confused about why you wouldn't want to work with the psychologist except for skills training ... here in the states, a psychologist has the highest degree .... it would be my preference to work with a psychologist .... 4 years after college, instead of the 2 that a lot of therapists have ....

Also wondering what C said in her email .....


Why was the "no tea" therapists sensitive about only doing 18 years of therapy ... that's a lot of years .... and they should be able to handle questions about experience and training ....
seychen

How confusing for you to have to make decisions about chosing a therapist, that must feel really tough...I guess you're so wary of making any mistakes. The ones you spoke to taday sounded interesting in different ways...

No-tea T certainly got to work quickly..

quote:
talked directly to my inner child and before I knew it, I was talking from taht part and then I started shaking and my teeth chattering and I could not think or speak. She said I was releasing trauma stored in the body


gosh, that sort of intensity of work is quite deep for a first meeting. No wonder you were shaking Frowner Were you ok driving home? Hmmm I wonder why she doesn't give hot drinks, it's not much to give if you were so shaken up is it?? It is her duty of care to make sure you are ok before you leave ....I know, my T has reminded me of this many a time! I guess I am used to her making me a coffee and thinking nothing of it, but they do all have their different rules and ways I suppose.

It's a shame Full-up T hasn't appointments til January, mind you with a break over Christmas that's not too far away. Will you arrange to meet her in person before you decide? That's probably really important isn't it?

I like Liese am a bit uncertain why you feel the psychologist won't be able to help...

quote:
he is only a psychologist for heaven's sake


and I guess it depends on what sort of training he has done - but I see a clinical psychologist who is very well qualified and experienced ...they have to be more so than many therapists, so don't let that put you off. You must ultimately decide on what feels right for YOU and only you can make that decision....I hope in the end that perhaps the decision becomes obvious and you instinctively haed and heart know who to chose.

starfish
Hi Sheychen
Boy oh boy have you had a rough time!! Bad enough what we've suffered at the hands of family but a therapist!!! Shameful!! You are doing marvellously well and will continue to do so. Re a possible new T - the 'no tea' T might not provide hot drinks but she appeared to recognise and meet your deepest need instinctively - I'd be inclined to have a 'trial' period and maybe take a thermos and offer her some tea!!! I always take a capuccino as we meet at the end of the day and are hanging out for one and take turns paying.
Keep taking care dear S.
Hugs
Morgs
Thanks both Liese and Starfish, I guess I am not sure myself personally about the psychologist, he does not seem to have worked much on himself, but there again, I am assuming. I shall ask him that again tomorrow.
I jsut don't get a good sense of him, but then I have been abused by the last man I worked for, so i am going to be nervous of men.
He is good on the phone but he gives little eye contact in person.
Also, he is 'Mental Health' what is called 'secondary services' here - so it feels very different, I am taken into a secure building with peeling paint and a sense that I am a potential risk, buzzed through doors and taken into a bare room, with two chairs.
Today for the 'no tea' T, there were sheepskins on the floor and large cushions to lie on and candle lit and sandelwood burning, with nice pictures and soft lighting. And I pay, and I have some control because of that.
With the psychologist he has already decided I only need 50 minutes every two weeks for one year only.
I have no say in this.
That is quite a good reason not to work with him as with my deep traumas, one year is probably not going to be enough.
and I am not sure he is as well trained as your lot out there, he has no knowledge of body work and he has not spotted I dissociate nor been aware of how to respond when I go into deep states of trauma release,
so - I see him tomorrow, 12.30pm
I keep walking - just taking baby steps
my ex C - she just sent an email suggesting we meet on the 17th instead.
I feel sick when I think of her.
god, what a journey
quote:
With the psychologist he has already decided I only need 50 minutes every two weeks for one year only.


Sheychen I think your instincts are correct on the one year issue. My newT says that after two years we are just starting to really know each other. I can vouch for this in my work with oldT. Once we hit the two year mark this past January our work really took off and I made a lot of progress and really grew until July when he went crazy with telling me he was not good enough to help me.

I would really be hesitant to begin again with someone who would only give it one year.

TN
Sheychen,

Just in general, I would immediately disregard any T that put any sort of time limit on our work. Therapy cannot be regimented...Our needs fluctuate so much as therapy progresses, as I'm sure you're aware of. You deserve to find a good T who will stick with you for however long you want them there and however long it takes, as well as one that treats you a whole heck of a lot better than you've been treated by your other Ts.

Many hugs. You've been through a lot, but I think you're handling it really well.
Thanks TN and Kashley,
Yes, I think the psychologist is a bit daft really doing that limited time scale thing especially when he said initially that it could be open ended and indefinite. Then he changed his mind.
sigh.
I talked to this woman who lives near on the phone yesterday and then she offered me a intitial assessment and I have been getting cross about who they charge about £80 for a first meeting and you don;t even know if you want to work with them yet.
so she replies:
quote:
After some further reflection, I have re considered my offer of the assessment session. There are a few reasons:

Firstly, I am uncomfortable that you are clearly unhappy with paying for the assessment session, (this is my usual practice, and that of many of my colleagues), and my experience has been that how therapy starts out is highly significant in terms of successful outcome. My concern is that this situation may well affect how we then go on to work together, if we were to decide to do that.
However, I do completely understand that you wish to look around for the right person, after your recent experiences, and if its important to you that you don't pay, I totally support you in pursuing this, as there are of course, plenty of therapists who don't charge.

Secondly, after our conversation yesterday I realise that you may well need more support than I can offer time wise, in terms of increasing freqeuncy of sessions/time on the phone etc. My practice is very tight at the moment, and will remain that way for the forseable future as I have lots of very long term clients. I am also away training a bit more too next year. So I will not be able to provide this extra time.

Thirdly, I checked my diary and realise that the client I thought was due to finish in January is infact finishing in februaury next year, so we wouldn't be able to commence work until then.

Therefore, on balance I think it best that we don't proceed at this point.


Well, at least we ended that earlier rather than later, so I am left with the 'no T' T at the moment, and have emailed her asking if she would like to meet again and said how I felt about the T. She will probably say she does not want to work with me either. Frowner

this is really hard,
I see the psychologist today
probably going to challenge him too
weed them out like nine pins.
Frowner
Dear Sheychen,

I'm sorry you're going through this struggle to find someone right. I believe it will be worth the struggle. I just wanted to say thanks for hearing my apology and accepting it in the spirit I meant it.

Mayo and Incognito - I'm so glad my post was helpful to you, thank you for letting me know.

Take care all.
J
Sheychen,

It sounds just as well you didn't pay the £80 for the assessment only to find out that this T could actually not meet your needs and I am also glad you found out sooner rather than later to save you from any more hurt.

It sounds like alot came up in the first session with 'no tea' T...it's a shame that she doesn't feel able to offer her clients hot drinks but I guess each T has their own boundaries to which they adhere to. Did you and your inner child feel comfortable with her? The setting of sheepskins, cushions and candles sure does sound cosy and warm. First instincts can go a long way.

I agree with the others that if the psychologist is putting a time limit on the therapy he may not be the best choice.

Hope it goes ok today with the psychologist.

Good luck with the search.

Hugs
Butterfly
Hi Jones, I had already forgotten all that ! Smiler No worries
And Butterfly, yes, the setting with no tea T was really nice but she seems a little fragile - when I asked her how much therapy she had done on herself she said "this is the third time you have asked me that !" and I said sorry, i obviously am forgetting things
so she said "18 years"
and I said "wow" laughingly "you must have had a LOT to work on1" ( i was rather impressed)
but she replied "well I think you coul dbe a little more sensitive, "
and I am not sure I misheard.
She seemed offended and upset.

but I have emailed her to check on that.

Just come back from just over an hour with the clinical psychologist and their training is REALLY different over here, in the UK. He just needs three years of academic training after his first degree. He has done - wait for it - 14 sessions of personal therapy himself.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
in his whole life
well I had a LOT to say about THAT ! Smiler
he also admitted at the end that he felt a little intimidated by me, as I know more about therapy than he does.
!!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!**!*!*!*

So guys, nice as it is talking with him, and it is very very nice, my little me likes to be there a lot, I have to remember and REMIND me, that he is only an interim person whilst I find a good therapist and I must not get too attached to him.

He is offering me one session a week until about Feb. And then we end Nov 2011.

But I may just see him until I am established with a REAL therapist.

So you see 'clinical psychologist' does not mean that much here.

He was really sweet today though adn I liked talking to him.

He won't be drawn on commenting on the C as he is a collegue of hers, but I sure vent about her and her ears must be burning.

I find HE kept the session going and at the end, he said, "we must end here, we are over time"and I said quite honestly 'You are making us go over, as you keep talking, I am not saying ANYTHING!' and he laughted cos it was true.

I talked about how I had posted something really difficult for me on my blog on Sunday and that was really amazing really cos although I cannot talk about it, at least I have written about it. I did not tell him WHAT it was that I was so bothered by but at least I was alluding to something that I might try talking about to him.

but I feel I could run circles around him. Without even pausing for breath.

So the search continues.
Just posted this on my blog,:


Poor psychologist, he had to admit that he has only had 14 sessions of therapy in his entire life!!

He felt really uncomfortable admitting that.

And at the end he said the felt a little intimidated by me as I seem to know so much more about therapy than him!

Goodness.

And there was I sitting with a very upset 8 yr old child who just wanted him to spank her - but of course I did not tell him that. Heaven forbid.

So we had rather a gulf of difference between us.

He did say he thought it must be very tiring having a very upset small child inside me which I feel is too much for people and actually my general experience is that that part of me IS too much for people and so I have to work so hard at keeping that hidden.

He also pointed out that my feeling around NewFinder were mostly feelings around my mother. Well, at least he understood that.

He just sort of listened and chipped in now and again. And I was happy to be heard but disassociated several times and started shaking twice. Such a long session but also time flew. What was I doing today? I think LostChild was trying to get seen and heard. I think that part of me was trying to come out. But was not sure to trust him yet, and not sure if he could help or whether he would judge and run from me as NF had done.

I do not know if he can help me. I am not sure I shall get anywhere with him.
Again I started really missing NF, her sweet voice when she said so empthatically "there is nothing wrong with you, absolutely nothing wrong with you no matter what others may say."
but then I remember the same voice now hard and matter of fact, saying "you have too many complex problems for me to work on here in primary care and I don't want to work with you anymore."

Really triggers just how my mother was for me.

Sigh. I am sighing a lot these days.

Then I phoned ANOTHER therapist today who said " I don't know how you think I can help you" after I had given a brief synopsis and then she said " I think you are attached to your pain and you feel more alive there, maybe you could let it go. You don't have to hold onto your pain."
That felt very judgemental and so I shall probably not even pay the £30 for the initial session with her.

I seem to be scaring them off so easily. I am frightened that another will run after I start to trust them, so best to get them out of the picture from the start if they cannot cope with strong stuff. Frowner
She asked me what I want and I said to know my problems, to be able to use my resources better to cope with the pain and also to absorb the love and care and kindness and solidity of another in a therapeutic relationship so that I can make that be inside of me and do it for myself and that care is important as I cannot seem to care enough for me right now.

She said I need to learn to care more for myself. Oh, silly me, must go buy that 'oodles of caring for yourself' bumper pack from the supermarket, that I keep forgetting to digest.
Sigh.
I am looking after myself and caring for this LostChild, I am trying to find her a safe place where she feels heard and can speak, I am trying to find help for when she shakes and her teeth chatter and when she disassociates. I am trying to find help for the coping mechanism she uses but I don't what her pathologised for it. I am trying to make sure that part of me heals.
Seems right now that I am asking too much.
quote:
Then I phoned ANOTHER therapist today who said " I don't know how you think I can help you" after I had given a brief synopsis and then she said " I think you are attached to your pain and you feel more alive there, maybe you could let it go. You don't have to hold onto your pain."
That felt very judgemental and so I shall probably not even pay the £30 for the initial session with her.

I seem to be scaring them off so easily. I am frightened that another will run after I start to trust them, so best to get them out of the picture from the start if they cannot cope with strong stuff. Frowner
She asked me what I want and I said to know my problems, to be able to use my resources better to cope with the pain and also to absorb the love and care and kindness and solidity of another in a therapeutic relationship so that I can make that be inside of me and do it for myself and that care is important as I cannot seem to care enough for me right now.


Sheychen,

Wow, that must have stung. I think I would move on from that T as well. Seems she has an approach that wouldn't be helpful for you at all. If it were as simple as just "letting it go" none of us would be here and our T's would be out of a job.

Your paragraph describing what you want and need from therapy is all completely understandable and reasonable. It sounds like you want someone to be with you on this journey so that you don't have to be alone as you heal from your past. I also hear that you want to build more coping skills and learn how to care for yourself, but need someone to model those things for you. Again, totally reasonable and a good expectation from T in my opinion. I think you can find what you are looking for. I can only imagine how frustrating that search is, but keep looking until you find what you need and deserve. You are worth it!
Amen...you really are worth it!

I've been following along, Sheychen...just wanted you to know that, but I don't feel that equipped to offer a lot of insight. However, I do wnat to offer my support.I feel really badly about what happened with C, that it seems like the **** hit the fan as we say here in NA, when you so bravely opened up to her about the enjoyment of attention. That was tough, interior work you were trying to do- and you need a really sensitive and understnading T who gets this piece. I had a similar conversation with my T many times, and I just wnat to say that it *is* possible to get the caring understanding and support that you so badly crave and need. Even though, very confusing at times, or we tend to push it away, or not see it when it is available...you know, on a deep level, when the total understanding and acceptance of you *where you are at* is available and when it is *not.*

You take care, now,stay strong-

BB

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