Sheychen, Can I ask about rupture? Is it a necessary part of the therapeutic relationship?
Liese, no rupture is when things are going really bumpy and sometimes fall apart, much better if it doesn't happen. If it does, then sometimes it is a signal that things are going very deep and both client and therapist are finding it hard, but apparently it is often the point before real breakthrough. I have experienced that with other T's. Here it was just pure rupture, she got to the point where she actively disliked me. No way through if that is happening. And I look back and remember how insistent she was that she had unconditional love .... unconditional. well, it turned out there were an awful lot of conditions hiding in the wings.
someone really vulnerable would have been devastated by what happened today - the things she said about me and what she implied - but actually thankfully I can see that she really was not up to the job and that is TRULY HER problem and not mine.
Still feel queasy tonight though. Guess that is to be expected. I had grown to love and trust and believe in her over 16 months and then in two months it all shattered from her side. I shall find it very hard when I DO find a new T to believe that I can tell them ANYTHING and they won't run in horror and feel I am beyond the normal range of human experience. sigh.
But my old T feels I am an amazing caring and competent adult and very sane but carrying some huge emotional pain but she does NOT disrespect me for it, she admires me for how much I have grown and how I work so hard and am committed to learning what my difficulties are and what resources I can nurture in myself and how I can change some of my unhelpful patterns.
someone really vulnerable would have been devastated by what happened today - the things she said about me and what she implied - but actually thankfully I can see that she really was not up to the job and that is TRULY HER problem and not mine.
Still feel queasy tonight though. Guess that is to be expected. I had grown to love and trust and believe in her over 16 months and then in two months it all shattered from her side. I shall find it very hard when I DO find a new T to believe that I can tell them ANYTHING and they won't run in horror and feel I am beyond the normal range of human experience. sigh.
But my old T feels I am an amazing caring and competent adult and very sane but carrying some huge emotional pain but she does NOT disrespect me for it, she admires me for how much I have grown and how I work so hard and am committed to learning what my difficulties are and what resources I can nurture in myself and how I can change some of my unhelpful patterns.
Sheychen .... It sounds like this woman shouldn't be a C ... but what do I know??? we just never know what issues some of these people come to the table with .... and the warning signals are there for a reason .... even if mine overreacts, it's still telling me that I'm uncomfortable ... maybe the danger isn't as bad as my body thinks it is ... but I do need to listen to it .....
I was wondering about the interaction between rupture and corrective emotional experience ..... ?????
I was wondering about the interaction between rupture and corrective emotional experience ..... ?????
Hiya,
From my perspective, I suspect rupture is a very necessary part of the therapeutic relationship.
Permanent perfect attunement is not a reality in human relationships.
We move in and out of synch with the people around us all the time. When we are robust inside, have good relationship skills and/or don't have a lot at stake in a relationship what happens is we get out of attunement, can notice it, and use our skills to get back into attunement with the other and ourselves - such as checking out our perceptions against reality, distinguishing new hurts from old hurts, communicating our feelings, hearing and accepting the communications of others, assessing danger, making choices to move closer or further away, letting go of hurt.
But when we have a really vulnerable sense of self, are not strong at some of those skills and/or we have lots and lots at stake, little ruptures quickly become big ruptures. And when we're living in that place, letting someone know us at all is a huge risk, because we don't know how to fix things when they go wrong. We only know that when things start to go wrong they get worse.
So I think a lot of therapy is about learning how to extend our skills at feeling, hurting, surviving and repairing the misattunements at higher levels of risk than we are used to. If our repair skills outstrip the risk, the ruptures are not catastrophic, might even be enjoyable as 'spark' in a relationship. If the risk outstrips our repair skills, the ruptures feel terrible - and can be traumatic when the T isn't capable of containing the situation and providing the missing repair skills.
2c, for what it's worth!
Jones
From my perspective, I suspect rupture is a very necessary part of the therapeutic relationship.
Permanent perfect attunement is not a reality in human relationships.
We move in and out of synch with the people around us all the time. When we are robust inside, have good relationship skills and/or don't have a lot at stake in a relationship what happens is we get out of attunement, can notice it, and use our skills to get back into attunement with the other and ourselves - such as checking out our perceptions against reality, distinguishing new hurts from old hurts, communicating our feelings, hearing and accepting the communications of others, assessing danger, making choices to move closer or further away, letting go of hurt.
But when we have a really vulnerable sense of self, are not strong at some of those skills and/or we have lots and lots at stake, little ruptures quickly become big ruptures. And when we're living in that place, letting someone know us at all is a huge risk, because we don't know how to fix things when they go wrong. We only know that when things start to go wrong they get worse.
So I think a lot of therapy is about learning how to extend our skills at feeling, hurting, surviving and repairing the misattunements at higher levels of risk than we are used to. If our repair skills outstrip the risk, the ruptures are not catastrophic, might even be enjoyable as 'spark' in a relationship. If the risk outstrips our repair skills, the ruptures feel terrible - and can be traumatic when the T isn't capable of containing the situation and providing the missing repair skills.
2c, for what it's worth!
Jones
Dear Jones, I agree with you about rupture and I wrote to my now EX C - last thursday saying much the same:
"Dear C, I found a quote "staying put and resolving conflicts instead of moving on is often the most valuable therapeutic work you can do."
MY previous T of 20 yrs ago also said that she thinks I am at the turning point and that the build up to turning points are usually the time that things fall apart and therapists begin to feel they just cannot cope and clients feel it is all falling apart. but my previous T of 20 yrs ago thinks we are mostly through this bit, if we could both work forward from here, respecting each others strengths and weaknesses.
Just a thought, please tell me if you think it is a worth a try."
And I was ready to work through this, I thought it would be fruitful for us, I was open to this, but I walk in and SHE says no, she has had enough. SHE cannot cope with the pain she feels at the level of anger I brought in, (I have never touched anger before in all the therapy I have done - so it was quite some anger - I at last realized that no human has a right to do what they did to me - they should not have done that).
So in this case, Jones, the client, me was willing over and over to try and mend this therapeutic rupture but it was too much for the counsellor.
I think I objected to your implication in this:
My old therapist saw me as constantly trying to 'teach' the counsellor how to come through this, how not to take it personally - how to not slide on boundaries, how to allow anger and other strong feelings, how to acknowledge her weaknesses as I was doing of my own weaknesses. She did not like her weaknesses being pointed out.
You seem to be implying it fell apart because I did not have the repair skills. I hope I have misread you as that is quite a judgement and not what the numerous people who know the situation, think. I was ready until the very last moment to try again with her, believe in her and move forward together finding a way through and learning from it but she was stuck with her active dislike of me and her lack of respect for me (am I some paedohile or rapist or murderer? NO I am a survivor of CSA, childhood trauma and rape - and I got ANGRY - heinous crime! AND I hit terrible pain. this was not acceptable to he.) Another thing she did not like and was not okay by her, I wrote about it on my blog:
"You know one classic remark she made this last session is almost funny. She said with great indignation: " you would be okay one session and I would think S is doing okay again and then NEXT session you would come in angry and all upset. You were just unpredictable. It meant I NEVER knew what was going to happen! There seemed to be absolutely NO REASON for it!" And she was so animated and agitated and indignant saying that. I looked at her and thought " my god this woman does not seem to know what therapy is actually LIKE! That being in different emotions each session can be normal when things are really intense and painful. That small things can trigger and a lot can change in the week between sessions."
But for her that was one more of the unreasonable things that I did that she felt was not acceptable."
I just feel this woman has not done enough work on herself to see her own failings and recognize when she is reacting and getting defensive and angry and so she just would not work with me anymore, did not want to, did not want to look at moving through the immense feelings it was bringing up in her. I was looking FORWARD to mending things, moving through this, it would have been immensely rewarding. but no. The C herself did not have the repair skills.
DeepFried, thank you for your kindness - yes, it was helpful that at last the C admitted to what was going on for her, but she is still well defended. When I said ' so you are saying you are out of your depth," she said "No! I am well WITHIN My depth", Which I just was astonished by, because the fact that she can get all indignant that I get angry in therapy and she did not want to have to be a room with that anymore and then in same breath say she is IN her depth, was astonishing to me.
It was really toxic. It is a huge relief to have ended and I have two possible T's to have phone calls with at the weekend to see if they might have the depth of experience and necessary training and skills to not bail out on me. My ex T of 20 yrs ago thinks this C was truly damaging me. And the fact that I have not gone under with this shows that I am both strong and - ironically- am used to surviving abusive situations and keeping going and not going under. It is a skill I have needed on frequent occasions in my life LOL
"Dear C, I found a quote "staying put and resolving conflicts instead of moving on is often the most valuable therapeutic work you can do."
MY previous T of 20 yrs ago also said that she thinks I am at the turning point and that the build up to turning points are usually the time that things fall apart and therapists begin to feel they just cannot cope and clients feel it is all falling apart. but my previous T of 20 yrs ago thinks we are mostly through this bit, if we could both work forward from here, respecting each others strengths and weaknesses.
Just a thought, please tell me if you think it is a worth a try."
And I was ready to work through this, I thought it would be fruitful for us, I was open to this, but I walk in and SHE says no, she has had enough. SHE cannot cope with the pain she feels at the level of anger I brought in, (I have never touched anger before in all the therapy I have done - so it was quite some anger - I at last realized that no human has a right to do what they did to me - they should not have done that).
So in this case, Jones, the client, me was willing over and over to try and mend this therapeutic rupture but it was too much for the counsellor.
I think I objected to your implication in this:
quote:If the risk outstrips our repair skills, the ruptures feel terrible - and can be traumatic when the T isn't capable of containing the situation and providing the missing repair skills.
My old therapist saw me as constantly trying to 'teach' the counsellor how to come through this, how not to take it personally - how to not slide on boundaries, how to allow anger and other strong feelings, how to acknowledge her weaknesses as I was doing of my own weaknesses. She did not like her weaknesses being pointed out.
You seem to be implying it fell apart because I did not have the repair skills. I hope I have misread you as that is quite a judgement and not what the numerous people who know the situation, think. I was ready until the very last moment to try again with her, believe in her and move forward together finding a way through and learning from it but she was stuck with her active dislike of me and her lack of respect for me (am I some paedohile or rapist or murderer? NO I am a survivor of CSA, childhood trauma and rape - and I got ANGRY - heinous crime! AND I hit terrible pain. this was not acceptable to he.) Another thing she did not like and was not okay by her, I wrote about it on my blog:
"You know one classic remark she made this last session is almost funny. She said with great indignation: " you would be okay one session and I would think S is doing okay again and then NEXT session you would come in angry and all upset. You were just unpredictable. It meant I NEVER knew what was going to happen! There seemed to be absolutely NO REASON for it!" And she was so animated and agitated and indignant saying that. I looked at her and thought " my god this woman does not seem to know what therapy is actually LIKE! That being in different emotions each session can be normal when things are really intense and painful. That small things can trigger and a lot can change in the week between sessions."
But for her that was one more of the unreasonable things that I did that she felt was not acceptable."
I just feel this woman has not done enough work on herself to see her own failings and recognize when she is reacting and getting defensive and angry and so she just would not work with me anymore, did not want to, did not want to look at moving through the immense feelings it was bringing up in her. I was looking FORWARD to mending things, moving through this, it would have been immensely rewarding. but no. The C herself did not have the repair skills.
DeepFried, thank you for your kindness - yes, it was helpful that at last the C admitted to what was going on for her, but she is still well defended. When I said ' so you are saying you are out of your depth," she said "No! I am well WITHIN My depth", Which I just was astonished by, because the fact that she can get all indignant that I get angry in therapy and she did not want to have to be a room with that anymore and then in same breath say she is IN her depth, was astonishing to me.
It was really toxic. It is a huge relief to have ended and I have two possible T's to have phone calls with at the weekend to see if they might have the depth of experience and necessary training and skills to not bail out on me. My ex T of 20 yrs ago thinks this C was truly damaging me. And the fact that I have not gone under with this shows that I am both strong and - ironically- am used to surviving abusive situations and keeping going and not going under. It is a skill I have needed on frequent occasions in my life LOL
MY last entry on my blog:
You know one classic remark she made this last session is almost funny. She said with great indignation: " you would be okay one session and I would think S is doing okay again and then NEXT session you would come in angry and all upset. You were just unpredictable. It meant I NEVER knew what was going to happen! There seemed to be absolutely NO REASON for it!" And she was so animated and agitated and indignant saying that. I looked at her and thought " my god this woman does not seem to know what therapy is actually LIKE! That being different emotions each session can be normal when things are really intense and painful. That small things can trigger and a lot can change in the week between sessions."
But for her that was one more of the unreasonable things that I did that she felt was not acceptable.
The last two things I said before I left the room were:
1. I had a dream at 4am that morning that I am in India again and the false guru is on top of me and I am just waiting for him to get off me and it has now being going on for some weeks and it almost feels normal, I just wait and breathe and know he will get off in about 20 minutes or so. As I lie there I see a movement at the window. the window has bars on it and I see NewFinder's face, looking in. She is seeing what is happening. She does not do anything, but I can see she is upset. It is upsetting her.
2. I tell NewFinder that the one thing I really regret is how when my anger erupted she took it personally and has felt hurt by it, so hurt that she cannot continue anymore. I said that I regret person to person, hurting another human being, hurting her though the words of anger that came spilling out.
I actually am quite amazed that she lost respect for me and actively dislikes me. I could feel that in my gut since the Crisis Friday - and at long last yesterday I had to trust my gut, as her dislike and indignation and anger were flung at me across the room for an hour and a half.
What happened to her unconditional love that she insisted she had, no matter what? If she feels this lack of respect and dislike for me because I let my inner pain break through to see if she cared, because I was so angry sometimes I could not hold it back and the words spilled out, what sort of feelings would she feel to a rapist or a murderer or a paedophile? I find it amazing that I am beyond the pale in her eyes for what I am like - when even I, with my shame and my guilt and self blame, can see that I don't really merit such extreme reactions.
I look back to see 'where it all went wrong' really. And for me it was a day in late May or early June when she went very still and said very quietly " I deeply care about you, I truly care about you and I want to help you with all my heart, you matter to me and I will stick by you no matter how rough it gets. It may get bumpy at times and I may mishear you at times but I am very steady and will not turn away." I heard those words and I let them in, deep inside and I then in the next few sessions experienced the frightened hurt child in me - come out. This is how this blog started - if you look back and read the prologue, it was about two sessions later that she held me and I at last felt the beginnings of defrosting the ice in my heart from way back when and let her kindness defrost me.
And that was when she saw a whole other part of me, and she could not handle it.
Also, the big turning point was Crisis Friday when she panicked and called out my GP to see me and he decided without asking me that I was to be referred to mental health instead of GP counselling.
For some reason when I admitted at the end of that day that I suspected that the child in me just threw a wobbly to get her attention, that I was not going to go around being that bad, it was just the child blowing up from being ignored for seven weeks, she NEVER forgave me for that and the feeling of dislike that I was picking up from her (and I was denying was true) started from then, a month ago.
That was beyond the pale for her.
Tragic.
My god, what HAS her supervisor been doing?
And also, I was willing to work through this awful and painful rupture, I felt that it had huge potential for growth and healing for both of us, but no, she did not want to repair it. SHE felt it was too ruptured, not me. SHE did not want to mend it.
You know one classic remark she made this last session is almost funny. She said with great indignation: " you would be okay one session and I would think S is doing okay again and then NEXT session you would come in angry and all upset. You were just unpredictable. It meant I NEVER knew what was going to happen! There seemed to be absolutely NO REASON for it!" And she was so animated and agitated and indignant saying that. I looked at her and thought " my god this woman does not seem to know what therapy is actually LIKE! That being different emotions each session can be normal when things are really intense and painful. That small things can trigger and a lot can change in the week between sessions."
But for her that was one more of the unreasonable things that I did that she felt was not acceptable.
The last two things I said before I left the room were:
1. I had a dream at 4am that morning that I am in India again and the false guru is on top of me and I am just waiting for him to get off me and it has now being going on for some weeks and it almost feels normal, I just wait and breathe and know he will get off in about 20 minutes or so. As I lie there I see a movement at the window. the window has bars on it and I see NewFinder's face, looking in. She is seeing what is happening. She does not do anything, but I can see she is upset. It is upsetting her.
2. I tell NewFinder that the one thing I really regret is how when my anger erupted she took it personally and has felt hurt by it, so hurt that she cannot continue anymore. I said that I regret person to person, hurting another human being, hurting her though the words of anger that came spilling out.
I actually am quite amazed that she lost respect for me and actively dislikes me. I could feel that in my gut since the Crisis Friday - and at long last yesterday I had to trust my gut, as her dislike and indignation and anger were flung at me across the room for an hour and a half.
What happened to her unconditional love that she insisted she had, no matter what? If she feels this lack of respect and dislike for me because I let my inner pain break through to see if she cared, because I was so angry sometimes I could not hold it back and the words spilled out, what sort of feelings would she feel to a rapist or a murderer or a paedophile? I find it amazing that I am beyond the pale in her eyes for what I am like - when even I, with my shame and my guilt and self blame, can see that I don't really merit such extreme reactions.
I look back to see 'where it all went wrong' really. And for me it was a day in late May or early June when she went very still and said very quietly " I deeply care about you, I truly care about you and I want to help you with all my heart, you matter to me and I will stick by you no matter how rough it gets. It may get bumpy at times and I may mishear you at times but I am very steady and will not turn away." I heard those words and I let them in, deep inside and I then in the next few sessions experienced the frightened hurt child in me - come out. This is how this blog started - if you look back and read the prologue, it was about two sessions later that she held me and I at last felt the beginnings of defrosting the ice in my heart from way back when and let her kindness defrost me.
And that was when she saw a whole other part of me, and she could not handle it.
Also, the big turning point was Crisis Friday when she panicked and called out my GP to see me and he decided without asking me that I was to be referred to mental health instead of GP counselling.
For some reason when I admitted at the end of that day that I suspected that the child in me just threw a wobbly to get her attention, that I was not going to go around being that bad, it was just the child blowing up from being ignored for seven weeks, she NEVER forgave me for that and the feeling of dislike that I was picking up from her (and I was denying was true) started from then, a month ago.
That was beyond the pale for her.
Tragic.
My god, what HAS her supervisor been doing?
And also, I was willing to work through this awful and painful rupture, I felt that it had huge potential for growth and healing for both of us, but no, she did not want to repair it. SHE felt it was too ruptured, not me. SHE did not want to mend it.
Dear Sheychen,
My apologies for being insensitive to your situation - although this is your thread and I'm really conscious of what's going on with you, I responded in a rush, ducking in and out, and Liese's question got me thinking in the abstract about ruptures - I wasn't trying to comment obliquely on your situation. In the background of my comments is me thinking through my own relationship situations, more than anything.
But I should have taken the time to say what I DO think about your situation - which is that you have done this amazing thing to get to a place where you can see her limitations - and her limitations are shocking for a professional therapist, in my view. I think you have better repair skills than she does. I thoroughly admire the way you have been conscious of the different parts of you, given your littlest ones space and now have found this surge of clarity and strength to move away from this person who is dangerous to you. In saying that I mean no criticism at all that it took you time to do that. You had to feel your feelings, and they were the intensely powerful feelings of attachment that yes, SHE invited. I doubt very much it could have been rushed. I also agree that her comment about your 'unpredictability' is absolutely laughable - not funny, but laughable. I hope she says THAT to her supervisor - while also hoping against hope that her supervisor is not as limited as she is.
Hmm, I certainly don't mean this in the kind of judgemental way it has come across. I'm sorry I didn't take more time to ground my comments. I guess I'm saying all relationship difficulties can be seen as problems of repair, and where we keep running into difficulties, there's probably some lack in repair skills. Again, I was thinking more in the abstract and about myself than about you in particular. But seen in this light, perhaps this is the work of therapy, and when we seek someone's help with our relationship stuff we are hoping (with more or less urgency) that they can teach us the missing bits. So I guess it is my assumption that you are not so strong on some repair skills, and I know that to be true of myself too, and I assume it to be true of everyone else seeking out therapy for relational difficulties. I'm saying it's the therapist's JOB to teach the missing stuff - so if you *were* missing some stuff, that was the opportunity for therapy - the opportunity you actively sought out. And she let you down. Not at all because you didn't try, but because she is unskilled.
Sheychen, I hope this clarifies where I was coming from. Please let me know if you feel upset about what I wrote, and if there's more I need to say. I'm about to head out of town for three or four days, so if you don't hear back until it's only because I don't have net access.
I wish you very well with finding your balance and the next steps of the recovery you have worked so hard for. I mean it about the admiration.
Take care,
Jones
My apologies for being insensitive to your situation - although this is your thread and I'm really conscious of what's going on with you, I responded in a rush, ducking in and out, and Liese's question got me thinking in the abstract about ruptures - I wasn't trying to comment obliquely on your situation. In the background of my comments is me thinking through my own relationship situations, more than anything.
But I should have taken the time to say what I DO think about your situation - which is that you have done this amazing thing to get to a place where you can see her limitations - and her limitations are shocking for a professional therapist, in my view. I think you have better repair skills than she does. I thoroughly admire the way you have been conscious of the different parts of you, given your littlest ones space and now have found this surge of clarity and strength to move away from this person who is dangerous to you. In saying that I mean no criticism at all that it took you time to do that. You had to feel your feelings, and they were the intensely powerful feelings of attachment that yes, SHE invited. I doubt very much it could have been rushed. I also agree that her comment about your 'unpredictability' is absolutely laughable - not funny, but laughable. I hope she says THAT to her supervisor - while also hoping against hope that her supervisor is not as limited as she is.
quote:You seem to be implying it fell apart because I did not have the repair skills.
Hmm, I certainly don't mean this in the kind of judgemental way it has come across. I'm sorry I didn't take more time to ground my comments. I guess I'm saying all relationship difficulties can be seen as problems of repair, and where we keep running into difficulties, there's probably some lack in repair skills. Again, I was thinking more in the abstract and about myself than about you in particular. But seen in this light, perhaps this is the work of therapy, and when we seek someone's help with our relationship stuff we are hoping (with more or less urgency) that they can teach us the missing bits. So I guess it is my assumption that you are not so strong on some repair skills, and I know that to be true of myself too, and I assume it to be true of everyone else seeking out therapy for relational difficulties. I'm saying it's the therapist's JOB to teach the missing stuff - so if you *were* missing some stuff, that was the opportunity for therapy - the opportunity you actively sought out. And she let you down. Not at all because you didn't try, but because she is unskilled.
Sheychen, I hope this clarifies where I was coming from. Please let me know if you feel upset about what I wrote, and if there's more I need to say. I'm about to head out of town for three or four days, so if you don't hear back until it's only because I don't have net access.
I wish you very well with finding your balance and the next steps of the recovery you have worked so hard for. I mean it about the admiration.
Take care,
Jones
quote:But when we have a really vulnerable sense of self, are not strong at some of those skills and/or we have lots and lots at stake, little ruptures quickly become big ruptures. And when we're living in that place, letting someone know us at all is a huge risk, because we don't know how to fix things when they go wrong. We only know that when things start to go wrong they get worse.
Quote from Jones.
Hey Sheychen, not hijacking your thread, but Jones entire reply is so important for me to hear- Thank you Jones-
Jones you describe exactly, exactly wht happened to me last night, and as I run away from him- he is the better repairer. I hear your words in my head, I hear his words in my head, but they have not yet touched my heart as I am the hurting child right now- walled off to protect myself.
Jones
thank you for your respectful and considered reply, it is hard talking via a forum, it is something we could have sorted so easily if talking, but I sincerely appreciate your comments. and yes, I see that you are mulling things over for yourself too.
I did really well trying to repair this, but actually stayed in this fractured therapy space too long as my smallest vulnerable self did not want to believe that my c was really so negative.
I think this forum is great.
sometime I read posts too fast and reply from where I am which is not where someone else is, and I think that I get myself in trouble. But wwe are all trying to help each other. Have a good trip out of town. I shall keep posting as I have to find a therapist who CAN handle me and respect me. sigh.
thank you for your respectful and considered reply, it is hard talking via a forum, it is something we could have sorted so easily if talking, but I sincerely appreciate your comments. and yes, I see that you are mulling things over for yourself too.
I did really well trying to repair this, but actually stayed in this fractured therapy space too long as my smallest vulnerable self did not want to believe that my c was really so negative.
I think this forum is great.
sometime I read posts too fast and reply from where I am which is not where someone else is, and I think that I get myself in trouble. But wwe are all trying to help each other. Have a good trip out of town. I shall keep posting as I have to find a therapist who CAN handle me and respect me. sigh.
Sheychen
I also want to second how amazingingly strong you were to recognize what was going on for you and for her and keep them separate so you could see it was time to leave. I know it seems like it took a long time but these are huge overwhelming feelings and they take as long as they take. I hope you find a new T worthy of you soon.
Jones I hope you see this. Thank you so much for your comments about rupture and repair. They provide an incredibly useful framework for how I am in relationships, usually I make sure I don't have much at stake, with my T I have so much invested I'm paralyzed because I think I have a vulnerable sense of self and poor relationship skills. I hope therapy helps me learn how to extend my skills because right now it just feels like a bottomless pit of pain.
I also want to second how amazingingly strong you were to recognize what was going on for you and for her and keep them separate so you could see it was time to leave. I know it seems like it took a long time but these are huge overwhelming feelings and they take as long as they take. I hope you find a new T worthy of you soon.
Jones I hope you see this. Thank you so much for your comments about rupture and repair. They provide an incredibly useful framework for how I am in relationships, usually I make sure I don't have much at stake, with my T I have so much invested I'm paralyzed because I think I have a vulnerable sense of self and poor relationship skills. I hope therapy helps me learn how to extend my skills because right now it just feels like a bottomless pit of pain.
Hi Incognito .... So understand about the bottomless pit of pain .... I too think about that how it seems important in developing ourselves as individuals necessarily means that we are not always going to agree with those who are important to us ... and we have to learn how to do that, hopefully assertively and politely ... and learn how to get past it .... that it's not going to mean the end of the relationship .... and we have to learn that asserting ourselves sometimes might mean the end of the relationship if we find that what the other person believes in or is doing is so offensive to us as individuals and have the strength to move on (like sheychen just did) ....but hopefully, with the people who are most important to us .... it shouldn't mean the end of the relationship ... my T always trys to point out that everyone is caught up in their own shit most of the time so it's not that they are being deliberately insensitive .... and that I need to bring my needs to their attention .... of course, if they are being deliberately insensitive, that's a different story .... May we all find some peace today!
Sheychen,
I am sorry for how this turned out and all your pain but I am glad that you ended as it seemed clear that continuing to work with your C would only injure you further. I hope you are able to find someone who has the depth and experience to be able go with you into the more difficult places you need to go so you can heal.
AG
I am sorry for how this turned out and all your pain but I am glad that you ended as it seemed clear that continuing to work with your C would only injure you further. I hope you are able to find someone who has the depth and experience to be able go with you into the more difficult places you need to go so you can heal.
AG
Today I woke up missing her and feeling I was so 'bad' - that is why she terminated with me and I deserved it all. I felt 'bad' and terrible and I got the consequences of how I behaved.
I acted out the rage of my three yr old and surprize surprise I got thrown out and she rejected me.
My adult also knows she was the wrong person for me, but it is still bad this morning.
I acted out the rage of my three yr old and surprize surprise I got thrown out and she rejected me.
My adult also knows she was the wrong person for me, but it is still bad this morning.
Dear Sheychen
I've followed your story for a while now. You are so brave, insightful and human. You may not feel it but you have probably leapt forward so far by taking control of this dreadful situation which is not of your making. I may not word this properly but your instincts and thinking are so healthy!! You will feel like shit some days 'cause this is so very hurtful but take a deep breath, then another, then another and give yourself a big pat on the back and be a little kinder to yourself 'cause you are still moving forward!! Probably not making much sense but hugely with you.
Many hugs
Morgs
I've followed your story for a while now. You are so brave, insightful and human. You may not feel it but you have probably leapt forward so far by taking control of this dreadful situation which is not of your making. I may not word this properly but your instincts and thinking are so healthy!! You will feel like shit some days 'cause this is so very hurtful but take a deep breath, then another, then another and give yourself a big pat on the back and be a little kinder to yourself 'cause you are still moving forward!! Probably not making much sense but hugely with you.
Many hugs
Morgs
quote:Dear Sheychen
I've followed your story for a while now. You are so brave, insightful and human. You may not feel it but you have probably leapt forward so far by taking control of this dreadful situation which is not of your making. I may not word this properly but your instincts and thinking are so healthy!! You will feel like shit some days 'cause this is so very hurtful but take a deep breath, then another, then another and give yourself a big pat on the back and be a little kinder to yourself 'cause you are still moving forward!! Probably not making much sense but hugely with you.
Many hugs
Mo
thanks Morgs, I really need to hear that, I am so glad you posted. today is bad too, but yes, you are right, I AM moving forward though it feels like I am moving so back. I FEEL the pain so intensely. I loved her so much, well, all the different parts of me loved her so much, and she can just walk away without a single pang. It is cruel how these people can do this. I don't ever want to be like them.
Hi Sheychen .... So sorry to hear you are feeling bad today.... You really don't know if she is walking away without a single pang .... You don't know what she is feeling .... You only know what you are feeling .... I know exactly what you mean, though ... that's how I feel about this whole therapy process ... I am a tiny part of his life and he is such a huge part of my life .... and I know that when I leave, it will be really painful for me but not at all painful for him .... and it makes me so angry .... But really, who knows what your C's loss is/was??? You can't define it ... She won't share it with you .... But this was your loss .... And you loved .... and that is a beautiful thing ....
I was curious about something you wrote to TN ... something about it's good TN found someone she could rage against .... that you haven't found that yet .... or you haven't been able to do it .... but you also seemed to indicate that because TN did do this that she was further along in the process .... Just wondering what you meant by all that ...??? I do get the sense that my T is looking for anger out of me sometimes ... but I seem to do all the repair work on my own and decide it was his brilliant ploy to get me to see this or see that and I don't stay at the anger stage for very long ....and I've certainly never expressed it to him ... I am wondering why anger is so important to the process? Is it all part of individuation?? I wasn't sure why I have so many issues with transference but I finally found a good explanation on the internet - which was that transference issues are really bad when the family is highly enmeshed .... and that made sense to me ... I guess if I felt valued as a person, I would be able to risk being angry because my needs would be respected ..... but that wasn't the case in my family ....
I hope you don't mind me asking these questions... I value your compassion and your insight ... You are always so quick to say something healing to someone else .... and I know you are hurting today ....
If we look at everything on a bell curve .... and we say, okay, some people don't have a problem being completely self-centered even if it means that other people will hurt .... and then you have the other extreme ... people who can't bare to be even slightly self-centered because they don't want to hurt other people .... Maybe we are all at the far end of the bell curve .... the side that can't stand to be slightly self-centered because we know the pain of not getting our needs met at the expense of others getting theirs met all too well .... but it shouldn't be that the ones at one end get their needs met all the time while the others at the other extreme suffer .... there needs to be more of a balance .... our needs aren't always going to match up to our partners or our T's 100% of the time ... and if we take care of our needs, sometimes it might be at the expense of our T's .... Like my last T that I left .. I wanted to leave her sooner .... but she cried when I tried to leave her the first time and said she knows she's a better than average T, I felt bad for her and I knew maybe she'd feel like she failed if I left so I bought her a card that said above-average something .... and gave it to her ... and stayed longer than I wanted ... and she pushed me harder and faster than I could go .... and I would up developing panic attacks .... so I was taking care of her at the expense of me ....
Even this T ... as much as I like him ... and I really do like him .... I do think he would take it personally if I left .... and sometimes I've wanted to leave just to hurt him .... but I've resisted .... because I know that's not the way I want things to end .... and he is helping me ....
I was curious about something you wrote to TN ... something about it's good TN found someone she could rage against .... that you haven't found that yet .... or you haven't been able to do it .... but you also seemed to indicate that because TN did do this that she was further along in the process .... Just wondering what you meant by all that ...??? I do get the sense that my T is looking for anger out of me sometimes ... but I seem to do all the repair work on my own and decide it was his brilliant ploy to get me to see this or see that and I don't stay at the anger stage for very long ....and I've certainly never expressed it to him ... I am wondering why anger is so important to the process? Is it all part of individuation?? I wasn't sure why I have so many issues with transference but I finally found a good explanation on the internet - which was that transference issues are really bad when the family is highly enmeshed .... and that made sense to me ... I guess if I felt valued as a person, I would be able to risk being angry because my needs would be respected ..... but that wasn't the case in my family ....
I hope you don't mind me asking these questions... I value your compassion and your insight ... You are always so quick to say something healing to someone else .... and I know you are hurting today ....
If we look at everything on a bell curve .... and we say, okay, some people don't have a problem being completely self-centered even if it means that other people will hurt .... and then you have the other extreme ... people who can't bare to be even slightly self-centered because they don't want to hurt other people .... Maybe we are all at the far end of the bell curve .... the side that can't stand to be slightly self-centered because we know the pain of not getting our needs met at the expense of others getting theirs met all too well .... but it shouldn't be that the ones at one end get their needs met all the time while the others at the other extreme suffer .... there needs to be more of a balance .... our needs aren't always going to match up to our partners or our T's 100% of the time ... and if we take care of our needs, sometimes it might be at the expense of our T's .... Like my last T that I left .. I wanted to leave her sooner .... but she cried when I tried to leave her the first time and said she knows she's a better than average T, I felt bad for her and I knew maybe she'd feel like she failed if I left so I bought her a card that said above-average something .... and gave it to her ... and stayed longer than I wanted ... and she pushed me harder and faster than I could go .... and I would up developing panic attacks .... so I was taking care of her at the expense of me ....
Even this T ... as much as I like him ... and I really do like him .... I do think he would take it personally if I left .... and sometimes I've wanted to leave just to hurt him .... but I've resisted .... because I know that's not the way I want things to end .... and he is helping me ....
Sheychen,
I have followed along with a lot of your situation but could not bring myself to post because it has felt strikingly similar to the feelings and intensities going on in my own therapy right at the moment.
I apologize for not offering you support and am very sorry your therapy turned out this way. It is a terrible feeling to feel something in your gut but to struggle against it. (*sigh* sooo where I am right now) I have recently been reading "Shouldn't I Be Feeling Better By Now? Client Views of Therapy, Edited by Yvonne Bates" I wish I could say if it was helping or not, but it has been a good read, although also sad to see the ignorance of some of those in the therapy profession. (yeah, I'm a little angry and bitter)
I wish you more success in your future journeys and hope your pain does not have to continue as you seek to improve your life.
I have followed along with a lot of your situation but could not bring myself to post because it has felt strikingly similar to the feelings and intensities going on in my own therapy right at the moment.
I apologize for not offering you support and am very sorry your therapy turned out this way. It is a terrible feeling to feel something in your gut but to struggle against it. (*sigh* sooo where I am right now) I have recently been reading "Shouldn't I Be Feeling Better By Now? Client Views of Therapy, Edited by Yvonne Bates" I wish I could say if it was helping or not, but it has been a good read, although also sad to see the ignorance of some of those in the therapy profession. (yeah, I'm a little angry and bitter)
I wish you more success in your future journeys and hope your pain does not have to continue as you seek to improve your life.
Thank you Liese and forlorn.
Liese, - I don't think TN is more or less along the path than me - but I do know that a T who can cope with the client's rage is a good T. that is all. And you don't HAVE to have anger, my problem is that I did not really HAVE anger, or a few times in my life I exploded and wondered "where the heck did THAT come from?" so the anger of September and October was a very very uncomfortable experience for me and I just could not UNDERSTAND or cognitively get a grip on it, it was pure ANGER. And it flew at my Counsellor like you would not believe.
I shall look at that book Forlorn. It is very kind of you to follow my painful thread, and I send you back my own care and kindness for your journey as you too seem to be in a difficult place.
I think I am at a new beginning - but with whom? That is the million dollar question. There are apparently attachment based psychotherapists, who work on that primarily over two years - and know it. And I think I need one of those. The main centre in England is the Bowlby centre in London and I don't know if I could get one near me - no where nr London.
I am going to take it slow and steady finding a new one. I shall interview many and work out who I feel comfortable with. Last time I did this, I worked with the T - a man - for two and half years - the first two with great success and then he sexually abused me. So - sigh - I feel trepidatious to say the least.
I have decided to re-shedule the 'saying the good things' session this Wednesday - to the following week as I have a big conference that starts that day and I would be pushed for time.
so will email her asking for a rain check.
thanks for your support, it really helps. It helps that people like TN have been through this, on my own without this forum - I would have thought I was the only one in the world whose T walked out on them when it got tough.
I still cannot believe she would not work with the rupture and come through it, when I would. I just feel she is smaller than I thought.
My smaller more vulnerable parts are still aghast, in shock, and wailing. Sigh.
Liese, - I don't think TN is more or less along the path than me - but I do know that a T who can cope with the client's rage is a good T. that is all. And you don't HAVE to have anger, my problem is that I did not really HAVE anger, or a few times in my life I exploded and wondered "where the heck did THAT come from?" so the anger of September and October was a very very uncomfortable experience for me and I just could not UNDERSTAND or cognitively get a grip on it, it was pure ANGER. And it flew at my Counsellor like you would not believe.
I shall look at that book Forlorn. It is very kind of you to follow my painful thread, and I send you back my own care and kindness for your journey as you too seem to be in a difficult place.
I think I am at a new beginning - but with whom? That is the million dollar question. There are apparently attachment based psychotherapists, who work on that primarily over two years - and know it. And I think I need one of those. The main centre in England is the Bowlby centre in London and I don't know if I could get one near me - no where nr London.
I am going to take it slow and steady finding a new one. I shall interview many and work out who I feel comfortable with. Last time I did this, I worked with the T - a man - for two and half years - the first two with great success and then he sexually abused me. So - sigh - I feel trepidatious to say the least.
I have decided to re-shedule the 'saying the good things' session this Wednesday - to the following week as I have a big conference that starts that day and I would be pushed for time.
so will email her asking for a rain check.
thanks for your support, it really helps. It helps that people like TN have been through this, on my own without this forum - I would have thought I was the only one in the world whose T walked out on them when it got tough.
I still cannot believe she would not work with the rupture and come through it, when I would. I just feel she is smaller than I thought.
My smaller more vulnerable parts are still aghast, in shock, and wailing. Sigh.
Sheychen ... I didn't know about the sexual abuse from that T ... that must have been awful .... I give you so much credit for even thinking about trying again after all you've been through .... These therapists are only people and can only take us as far as they themselves have gone .... And you have to be careful .... we all do .... They are limited by their own growth, eduation, motivation, intelligence and insight ....(just like our parents, I guess) ... maybe we can take whatever we can from each one ... even the bad ... because we can all learn so much about human behavior and frailty ....
So you're going back to C ... for an only saying good things session? ..... I guess it could be a good thing ... It sounds awful though .... I might be too angry at her to make her feel good ..... Maybe you could just let her say good things to you .... I know I'm rotten ... you don't have to tell me ....
So you're going back to C ... for an only saying good things session? ..... I guess it could be a good thing ... It sounds awful though .... I might be too angry at her to make her feel good ..... Maybe you could just let her say good things to you .... I know I'm rotten ... you don't have to tell me ....
I actually just had to email her that I have to postphone this 'saying good things' session (the session was my idea, trying to make the best of a bad job)
but I have to be at a conference earlier than I expected so cannot make Weds. I have asked to meet with her the following week but may not - need more time to think about this.
I feel so deeply hurt by her, but I know that will fade in time.
She feels absolutely professional - from her point of view she is an 8 - 12 week session counsellor who sees people for current life issues or mild depression. I have major trauma and attachment issues which only surfaced once I started seeing her and she has ended with me because I am out of her remit. she feels she is well in order. HOW she did it, she will not look at. She will NOT let in any understanding of how utterly painful and shocking it has been for me. She just won't and can't. She just sighs or gets annoyed with me for being so upset about it. That from my point of view we were working til the end, and from her point of view she could terminate when ever she felt she was out of her depth and then tell me she was in her depth.
urgh
anyway, I don't want to start getting annoyed again.
I have already written to her an email saying what I appreciated and I have also given her a letter saying thank you and being magnanimous and gracious about how she has helped me. I was hoping she would give ME an affirming session - but I am not sure she is up to that.
sigh.
and yes, sexual abuse from a T is devastating. I got him struck off and all my money back. I was in such a state after that, and I never got another T til this latest C. Sigh.
They are all fallible - it is just that I seem to bring out their worst side.
My ex T of 1988-9 never hurt me intentionally and never really did anything too wrong - she just loved me back to as much wholeness as I could manage at the time.
Just hope and pray I find someone who can handle me, I find myself warning them all
but I have to be at a conference earlier than I expected so cannot make Weds. I have asked to meet with her the following week but may not - need more time to think about this.
I feel so deeply hurt by her, but I know that will fade in time.
She feels absolutely professional - from her point of view she is an 8 - 12 week session counsellor who sees people for current life issues or mild depression. I have major trauma and attachment issues which only surfaced once I started seeing her and she has ended with me because I am out of her remit. she feels she is well in order. HOW she did it, she will not look at. She will NOT let in any understanding of how utterly painful and shocking it has been for me. She just won't and can't. She just sighs or gets annoyed with me for being so upset about it. That from my point of view we were working til the end, and from her point of view she could terminate when ever she felt she was out of her depth and then tell me she was in her depth.
urgh
anyway, I don't want to start getting annoyed again.
I have already written to her an email saying what I appreciated and I have also given her a letter saying thank you and being magnanimous and gracious about how she has helped me. I was hoping she would give ME an affirming session - but I am not sure she is up to that.
sigh.
and yes, sexual abuse from a T is devastating. I got him struck off and all my money back. I was in such a state after that, and I never got another T til this latest C. Sigh.
They are all fallible - it is just that I seem to bring out their worst side.
My ex T of 1988-9 never hurt me intentionally and never really did anything too wrong - she just loved me back to as much wholeness as I could manage at the time.
Just hope and pray I find someone who can handle me, I find myself warning them all