I believe that counter-transference is as common and as much a misunderstood phenomenon as is transference, and is not always an unhealthy response or a sign of weakness on the part of a therapist. I am inclined to believe that (good) T's do seek supervision whenever necessary and very rarely disclose this to their clients. I don't think that non-disclosure means they don't own it, if that is what you meant by that Em.

While CT may effect or be triggered in their professional life, it is still a "personal" response and it is their right to choose whether to disclose or not, and unless their is a serious infringement it is usually within the clients best interest if they do not disclose.

And of course CT can take on various forms as you pointed out, which can have a positive or negative impact on the realtionship, but I think that disclosure is seldom a good idea. Even if it bleeds through their behavior this is something they need to contain or seek professional supervision for while maintaining a less complicated relationship with their clients. Whatever a T chooses to disclose about themselves they have to weigh how it will affect the individual client. For instance, if a T is feeling overly maternal toward a client, disclosure could raise all sorts of responses from a client; euphoria, hope, doubt, suspicion, or mistrust in what was otherwise a workable relationship. It can create a type of seduction and may make the client become unduly obsessed with getting more or even involved in a T's personal life. A client could even become manipulative in trying to tap into the CT and none of this would benefit the client or the T.

So if we suspect that CT may be playing a part in our therapy setting (and it probably is) we are best to leave it at that. We can ask our T if that is the case although I seriously doubt we are going to get a straight non-analytical response. I don't know if your post has personal application, but if you are feeling distressed or confused about what you are sensing I think that is what needs to be discussed, and your T will at least be aware and able to modify her reponse if necessary or at least assure you that she has her emotions properly contained.

I also don't want to overlook the idea that a therapist who is acutely attuned to their own emotional responses (CT) can have a better understanding of their client and this close attunement contributes to healthy change and progress in their therapy. So I believe that CT can and does play a big part in our therapeitic realtionship, but I believe this is carefully and creatively applied by a good T.

On the other hand some recent issues that have come up on forum such as anger and unfounded accusations toward a client deserve acknowldegement and validation for the client. But this is a more serious breech and CT in its uncontained form. Anytime CT is uncontained can be detrimental to a clients well being and absolutely need supervison and acknolwedgement (not necessarily full disclosure) to the client.

Just my opinion,
JM

Ditto to JM's brilliant response.

Countertransference can actually be a valuable tool in the hands of a therapist who is self aware. Their emotional responses to you and what is going on in the room can often provide valuable clues to what is going on with the patient, especially on a level which the patient is unaware of or unable to articulate. Sometimes I think the words transference and countertransference are a bit misleading. Both the patient and the T are having feelings about each other. But in the Ts case, they are to be aware of their feelings and use them to understand the patient but not to discuss them with the patient. If they're having problems with a strong emotional response to a patient, positive or negative, they have a professional responsibility to deal with it on their own away from the patient. The theraputic field needs to remain about the patient's needs. But being aware of their own emotional responses, even though they will not disclose or act upon them, can be a very potent tool for a T.

AG

Here's a funny thought to ponder...
Do you think our T's have their very own countertransference thread on a T forum somehwere? (tee hee hee)

I bet they do! But knowing Ts its password protected.

Actually I would imagine that when Ts discuss their job, that has to be a big part of the discussion.

Countertransference is a big part of the discussion in a Ts supervision. And they depend on other mental health providers to point out countertransference if the T's behavior is crossing boundaries.

No its not countertransference that i meant i dont know enough about the lingo to know what its called.

What I want therapists to share with their patients/ clients is an authentic reaction to what is happening in the sessions. An example is I have made my therapist frustrated and angry before and she has told me that she feels frustrated and it has helped me to understand about it and maybe that it is how i am causing another person to react in my life.

So if it feels that they are getting too involved maybe they can say that to me and explain how it could relate to another person in my life.

Hope this makes more sense and if anyone knows the lingo for this could they please tell me what i meant to write in the title. thanks.

Em

In my Monday session this week, my T started out by saying, "just a reminder that we aren't meeting on so-and-so days next week." Well, he hadn't actually told me in the first place. This is the third time he has neglected to tell me about a break.

In the next session, I told him how angry I was about this, and how I don't understand why he keeps forgetting to tell me about these breaks when he clearly thinks he did.

He told me he'd been thinking about it, and indeed, I was the ONLY client he didn't tell.

He then said something like, "you and I seem to have an arrangement going on where I am unwittingly making you feel rejected and dismissed, and then of course hurt and angry. You seem to be asking me to be your father, and I'm agreeing to that in some way."

He then went on to say that, "we need to jump on this now because it could be a very good opportunity to...something, something, something..." At that point I was pretty freaked out and I didn't really get what he said or what he meant, other than he seemed to be disclosing some counter-transference to me and that we needed to now examine what's going on with that.

I then said, "let me get this straight...you think I'm somehow acting in such a way that's making you behave like my father?"

He said, "no, not quite."

I then said, "or it's making me experience you like my father?"

Again he said, "no, that's not quite it either."

He then went on to talk about what he thinks might be going on but honestly, I was so foggy-headed and freaked out that I don't remember what he said other than it was totally confusing.

Now I feel like there's something about me as a person or my character that made my father reject me, and now I'm MAKING my therapist to do it, too. It's like I'm infecting this man with some disease that makes him be an asshole to me, like my father was. WTF???

So now I've got yet another baffling, disturbing thing to figure out, and meanwhile I remain stuck in the same shitty place I've been for 2.5 years. It's like I'm in hell and I'm just presented with one confounding riddle after another, and working to figure them out is supposed to help me somehow.

I don't get it. I don't get anything right now.

Russ

Oh Russ,

That session sounded so awful. It's not you. I don't know why he would say something so important but not be sure you were following him???? He should have realized you were so blown away. Can you call him to clarify or will you just wait till next session? OR is it the next session that he's away?

Hi Russ... I'm so sorry you have been left in this horrible state of mind. It sounds to me like you were dissociating in your session quite a bit. Whenever your T started talking about something that sounded dangerous or threatening to you you just zoned out and could not hear him. I do this quite frequently.

Of course, without asking your T again what he was saying we cannot be sure. But I do wonder... and I could be very wrong... if he hesitates to tell you about his vacations because of your reaction to that news and so he delays it until the last moment. And hear me... this is HIS ISSUE not yours. You are allowed to be angry and feel abandoned and kick your feet like a 3 year old in therapy. That is okay to do. But your T needs to be more forthright and open about his plans and give you more notice. My old T would never tell me openly what he was planning until the last moment and last Christmas this created a real problem in our sessions. My new T says he gives his clients at least a month's notice that he is going away and he is prepared for them to be angry and feel abandoned. He is fine with discussing it. I think the counter-transference he mentioned could be HIS reaction to your reaction to his going away.

There is nothing about you or about how you are that should have caused your Dad to reject you. You are a good person. It was his problem. And your T is not rejecting you at all.. he is just recognizing that there are some feelings in the room that need to be explored. Better this than what my T did... he ran from all the feelings and truly rejected and abandoned me.

Hang in there Russ. I'm thinking of you.

TN

I'm sorry you had such a confusing session, Russ. I hate it when I miss key point, and key parts in the sentence, and am left with my guesses about what was said or how it went...nothing sucks more. Do you record sessions? I thought I read somewhere that you did, but if I'm wrong forgive me...I was just wondering. Obviously if you were feeling barave enough and had a recording, you could play it back to see if the sesion makes more sense.
I wonder what your T meant by, he seems to have fallen into the father role with you??? Very interesting, annoying...??

Please know that although it might be tempting to feel that way, I do not think that your T is rejecting you by not reporting his absesnces in a timely and respectable fashion...I think it's like he is saying that he is is picking up on something that you expect from him and giving it to you, accidentally- because you have a paternal transference? But this would no mean that you infect him with wanting to reject you...no, Russ, it's something you learned as a child, if it's true, and, it's not your fault, and if T is picking up on it in some odd way, then...*he* is the one who needs to change...because he's picking up on the "little boy" vibes you are sending, the ones from your childhood...ie.- "oh, no, he's going to reject/dismiss me..." Just as your father was the one who needed to change when you are a boy, your T needs to change, now. IfI am understanding correctly...if not, please don;t take it in. None of this stuff is your fault, Russ. But it does need looking at and working through, of course, which you are already doing... keep us posted.

BB

Dear Russ,

This sounds confusing and upsetting, but also like a bit of a breakthrough. Your T is admitting to some countertransference. He's admitting that he's acting in ways that make you feel rejected and dismissed, so in some way he is taking some responsibility. He's certainly taking the responsibility of bringing this into focus in the therapy, and admitting that he has been participating in the dynamic in unconscious ways. It seems to me that that could be a *really* productive thing. I only hope he can be very clear that he is bringing his stuff into this too, and you are not the only actor in this "arrangement".

Good luck.

Hi Liese,

I'm going to wait until I see him next week. I think I need to sit with it a while and try to work on it myself. Thanks for your thoughts.

TN,

I'm still not entirely sure what is and what isn't dissociation, but it's not really that I totally "checked out" when he was talking. A more accurate description of what happens in moments like this is that he'll say something, and I'll pause in my mind to think about what he has said, but then I miss what he says after that - during that space when I'm thinking about what he said at the start of his comments. Is this your experience too?

Still, there's no question that I tend to not hang on to ideas or thoughts that are too uncomfortable. So that plays role in it, too. No doubt.

The last two times this has happened, it's been when he's taking TWO breaks, with maybe a session or two in between. So for example, he'll have a few days off in a couple of weeks coming up, and then a few days off maybe the following week. So, what has happened is he's told me about the *first* break, but not the second, but he thinks he's told me about both. I don't know what this means, but that's been the scenario the last two times...he tells me about the first part of the break, but then not the second.

I honestly think that my T is unconsciously forgetting to tell me. He's extremely professional and conscientious and respectful toward me, and while his telling me this has freaked me out, a part of me appreciates that he told me about it, and that he told me about it in a very measured yet thoughtful way. Also, he framed the entire thing as an opportunity, so that's good, too.

Thanks for your feedback on this, TN. I know things are still awful for you, but I hope things with newT become better, somehow, someway. I'm thinking of you, too.

Hi BB,

I don't record sessions. I did bring up the idea, but when I saw my T hesitate, I never followed up. He made it clear that he wasn't crazy about the idea, for whatever reason, and we never talked about it again. I have mixed feelings about it myself. I know it would be helpful, but I'm also not sure I'm ready to hear myself in therapy yet. But, maybe I should use this as an opportunity to bring up the idea again.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
I think it's like he is saying that he is is picking up on something that you expect from him and giving it to you, accidentally- because you have a paternal transference?

I think this is correct. He has said many times that I expect him to treat me like my father did. This expectation is so strong that it sees right past the fact that my T he never dismissed a word I've said, never disrespected my experience, my words or my feelings. In fact, he's been incredibly accepting and patient. All things my father was not, and still, I expect to be dismissed.

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
This sounds confusing and upsetting, but also like a bit of a breakthrough. Your T is admitting to some countertransference. He's admitting that he's acting in ways that make you feel rejected and dismissed, so in some way he is taking some responsibility. He's certainly taking the responsibility of bringing this into focus in the therapy, and admitting that he has been participating in the dynamic in unconscious ways. It seems to me that that could be a *really* productive thing. I only hope he can be very clear that he is bringing his stuff into this too, and you are not the only actor in this "arrangement".

Jones, thanks so much for this. This is such a positive take on it, and probably more accurate than mine.

He *was* very clear that he has become aware that something is going on between us in this very particular way, although he's not entirely sure exactly what the mechanics are for himself. Even tho it freaked me out, I did appreciate the fact that he said he was aware of it, and also that he obviously checked with all of his other clients to see if he'd neglected to tell any of them, specifically to see if I was the only one, and I was.

At the same time - no doubt largely because it's the holidays - I am once again experiencing intense - and I mean really intense - feelings of hatred and anger toward my father. I mean, my anger at him defies description. It's to the point where I can't even look at him, let alone be near him. When I hear his voice, my blood boils. And you know what? I hate him for making me feel this way toward him, so clearly there's also a part of me that isn't totally OK with feeling this way.

Still, the rejection that I experienced at the hands of my dad is clearly a key factor in my troubles, but I still don't know what exactly to do with all of it, and I still don't have much focus around the specific feelings of memories of the rejection. But, the resulting feelings are there, big time. I mean, it's a kind of anger that I can't seem to work with. But, maybe this new development with my T will somehow open up a new path for moving somewhere with it instead of just being stuck in this pit of anger.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I really, truly, and deeply appreciate it. Thanks so much.

Russ

((((RUSS))))

Thinking of you today. Hope you feel a little better.

Thanks, Liese. I've really just been sitting around, trying to envision what exactly it is inside me that's causing me so much pain...trying to piece together how it's working.

I have a hard time bringing direct focus to feelings and memories. Instead, I experience a terribly frightening and painful head fog, and I usually just end up crying about all of it and feeling terrorized by the fear that it will never end, that I'll never get to the other side of this experience and be free of it and, finally, healthy.

Russ

Russ,

I know about the frightening and painful head fog. Do you ask your T about the other side of it? I'm going to. They should be able to provide some kind of answer. I am just starting to be able to make the emotional connections. And, then, I guess I will be better able to identify my "triggers". We haven't gotten that far in my therapy yet but I'm sensing we're getting there since I'm just starting to be able to make the connections. Have you talked to your T about not being able to make the connections?

I feel like my emotions have just been a big big blur for the past 3 years (well my whole life, but I'm only counting since i've been in therapy). Sometimes I think that the pain is hard to see clearly, like I'm protecting myself from myself. And it's only been lately that maybe I was strong enough to face the pain?

Maybe you're getting close, Russ, but just not quite ready. It's so brutal, huh? You sound very frustrated.

Liese,

I'm starting to realize that my T doesn't have any single answer that will "cure" me. He can't reach inside my head and sort out all the emotions and re-wire my neural pathways. Instead, I think the answer(s) is/are inside me, and my T is really just there as a guide. And if I'm lucky, my relationship with him will somehow open a pathway for me to get to those things that need to be felt, faced, processed, remembered, or whatever.

My T does have some very definite ideas about what's causing my problems, but, as he's said many times, what he thinks and understands doesn't mean much if I don't see it, understand it and, most importantly, feel it.

Yes, my T and I often talk about missed connections, or as he puts it, "linkages." There are all sorts of things that are strikingly clear to him that are, at best, vague notions to me.

So, part of the work is getting me to make those connections and linkages, but there's only so much he can do. Somehow, I have to find a way to do a lot of this stuff myself, with him as my guide.

quote:

Originally posted by Liese:
Sometimes I think that the pain is hard to see clearly, like I'm protecting myself from myself.

You are by no means alone here. Here's where the discussion about defenses comes in. Here's an example.

Let's say that a part of you that you're not really aware of is attempting to experience a particular feeling that you're also not very aware of; maybe a painful feeling from the past. If that particular feeling - hurt, shame, whatever - is unacceptable and/or incongruent to your ego - meaning the part of you that you are aware of, the "you" that you see in the mirror and that know yourself as - then that part of you will automatically throw up a defense against that...or maybe even a complex set of defenses, depending on how objectionable the feeling might be to your ego consciousness.

So, in that sense we do "protect" ourselves, but of course, it's a double-edged sword in a lot of cases because it may be that the price you pay for not feeling that feeling is some other symptom...depression, anxiety, OCD, etc.

Best,

Russ

Emerald,

I am so sorry that we hijacked this thread. Last conversation and then we can take it somewhere else.

Russ,

That's interesting that you can't see the links. So your T actually points them out to you? I do think and my t would never admit this andI know this sounds paranoid but I do think my T shifts things in our relationship a little, just a little, to get me to SEE/FEEL things. I also think the way he runs his office can bring up a lot of issues. So he kind of uses the setting of his office to work on things - so that stuff seems natural and just kind of occurring in nature. I'll give you an example. When I was first seeing him, I saw him every week but then i wasn't sure he liked me so I suggested I come every other week. And, he said, that's fine, I like independence, come every other week. But I hadn't really come to a definite decision and I was upset that he wasn't giving me what I wanted, which was that I was welcome to stay every week and of course, he liked me. So then, he had his secretary call me three times before my next appointment and she kept asking me if I was going to drop down to every other week because she needed to know. I was really pissed off well, because you know why I was pissed off ... because I didn't mean it and I felt pushed out. I was fishing for something else. And, I was pissed off because I knew that he knew I was fishing for something else and felt it was a breach of our relationship that he told he secretary to call me. But I could never articulate that to him. And still haven't. Anyway, I do remember getting really upset and I think I must have called to speak with him and he called me on the phone and told me I should call him if I get upset in between sessions. I really wasn't sure what his angle was with the whole thing. I just kind of assumed he wanted me to know that I could call him in between sessions. And I tend to mostly give him the benefit of the doubt, that if he is jerking me a little here and there, it's to help me. Maybe he was trying to get me to be more direct about what I was asking for. That if I do that kind of stuff out there in the real world, people are going to respond to what I say and that I'll very often wind up feeling frustrated because I'm not asking for what I want and not getting what I need.


But that scenario probably happened 2 1/2 years ago and we're just getting to the "you need to be more direct" converssation. Therapy is an interesting journey, huh?

My last T was definitely doing things on purpose to get reactions out of me. I think my current T said she "created situations" .... I probably shouldn't be talking about this because everyone will start getting paranoid. But my last T made comments about things, like not being able to get reactions out of me, etc., ... and she was a really bad actress and gave a lot away non-verbally so I never really felt like the relationship was genuine. Current T knows all about her and promises that he won't do anything like that but I just think he's better and more subtle than she was. And, as he said, "You hired me to help you".

I know we've strayed from the transference/countertransference topic. So sorry again, Emerald.

Here's a thought on the countertransference. One time I thought he was using it to get me to see something that was bothering me. For example, I'm not sure he was really experiencing countertransference or if he was pretending to. I Thought he was really experiencing it at the time. But afterwards, decided he was pretending to. Anyway, he mentioned the word frustrated. And, so then a week or so later, I went in and asked if he got frustrated with me. And, he said, no never. It's all on my time. My pace. However fast or slow I want to go. So, now what do I believe? Either he was really frustrated with me and was not being honest with me two weeks later. Or he knew what I was experiencing and didn't want to come right out and tell me, so he kind of acted frustrated, threw the word in there and waited for me to come back to him with it. And, so is that a trust issue? Should I ask him, well you said you were frustrated two weeks ago? And, now you're saying you're never frustrated with me? So, in which instance were you not telling me the truth? Or do I really need to know that. Is the important thing that he never gets frustrated with me? As long as I can believe it?