(((((JONES))))))

I'm sorry that the couples session was so awful and that you won't be able to contact Manatee until Thursday. Can I ask what it is that you need to find out from Manatee that you don't know how to do?

My only comment is that I'd tend to give Manatee the benefit of the doubt here only because I am making a big assumption here this is the first time he met your H? Whereas your H's old T really had the advantage here, having worked with your H and knowing how he would react to your boundary setting. And also knowing how to work with your H. And, so, I can't say off the bat that your H's ex-T is any better than Manatee. At this point, he only has more experience with your H on his side.

It sounds like you also need to focus on what happened in the session the night before the couples session and sort out with Manatee why you felt abandoned by him.

xoxoxo

Liese

Hi Liese,

Thank you sweetie. Manatee's met H a few times in co-therapy sessions and had an individual session once. But the other T does know him better. I guess Manatee was trying to look out for me but it backfired. I tried to warn him beforehand but I was so pissed off with the whole thing by the time we got to the couple session that I had a bit of a crash'n'burn attitude.

There's a lot of stuff that I feel like I need from Manatee at this point that I don't know how to broach or I don't trust myself to broach. What we're doing and how and why. It all seems to evaporate when I get in the room. Now I also need to talk about how angry I am at what happened, and how I felt abandoned on Friday night. I'm going to try writing it down to hold it till then but I'm scared that will just mean I process it on my own.

Love,
Jones

((((Jones))))

I don't have a lot to offer than some hugs and to say that sometimes, things get worse before they get better. I'm guessing that T touched a nerve with your H,but sometimes when this happens, change follows. I know you are mad at T for doing this, but maybe someday you will be able to look back at it as a favor that he did for you and your marriage.

(((((Jones)))) hope it gets better soon.

(((((JONES)))))

I know how awful it feels when the trust gets shaky. You're probably right. He was probably trying to take care of you. He probably feels quite protective of you, which obviously came into the room and wasn't terribly helpful. As they say, working through the transference and the countertransference can be the most productive part of therapy, if you can hang in there and try to be brave and talk to him about all the things on your mind.

I've made it my business to hide my anger towards my T from my T and I don't think that has been very helpful to my therapy. I think I'm just secure enough now to start processing some of my anger towards him with him and he is welcoming it. It's a sign of growth. I hope you find that Manatee will welcome your anger.


For what it's worth, my T and I seem to have the biggest ruptures right before his vacations. I don't know why that is. I don't know if he has anxiety about going away and so just makes a mess of everything. (I just like to blame him for all the ruptures.) I just don't know.

It doesn't sound like it was a good idea to have a session on one evening and then a couples session the next day just as he was stepping out to go on a vacation. From the sounds of the session, I'm sure he is not having a good time. He probably knows he screwed the whole thing up and that the other T saved the day. Maybe he was anxious about the other T being in the room? Maybe he decided to be more aggressive with your H than usual because the other T was in the room and felt your H would have an ally? Maybe he wanted the other T to hear and experience your side of the story? Who knows what was going on unconscioulsy in his head. But, I bet he's beating himself up now about it all.

I read your other post on the say anything thread about your concerns about your T being materialistic. I had similar fears about my T. In my head, if he valued money, that meant he wasn't caring. My T lives far from me but one day I was on business near his house and I drove by. He didn't live in a mansion and I was so relieved. Just a nice, normal house. In other ways, too, I have come to learn that he is not driven by making money, all of which I find comforting in a T. I know he doesn't charge for certain things that other T's charge for. He's also told me that if money becomes an issue for me, that it's not for him and that he wants me to continue coming in even if I can't pay him and we'll work it all out later. It's the little things that tell me that he cares about me and about what he does for a living.

By contrast, I went on a consult to a T in the village near my house. The village is affluent. The sense I got from that T was completely different. He didn't even take insurance. And I don't think I could ever go to him. Is it fair to believe that T's shouldn't be concerned about making a decent amount of money? I just know for me that my T seems to be on the same page as me in that he cares about being comfortable and having enough money to travel a bit, go out to dinner and a movie and hopefully enough to retire. But he's not driven to make money for the sake of making money. I actually think he's driven to help people. His basic values, his caring values are in place and that comes through loud and clear.

So I hope you can somehow find a way to sort this through with Manatee. Of course, I didn't. I just drove by his house. But the answers have come over time as well from comments like the one above that let me know who he is at his core. I hope you will find that Manatee does care about you. And I hope Thursday comes really fast.

xoxoxo

Liese

P.S. I hope things with you and H have calmed down and everything is okay.

Hi Jonesy

So sorry to hear of your session and the rupture with Manatee, aw that must have really thrown you. Couples work is so hard (((Jonesy))), loyalties get stretched and boundaries waver sometimes.

How hard too that he is off on a trip, even thoug it is a short one, this is when you need to talk to him, I understand that. I would also echo Liese's observation that breaks seem to throw up all sorts of problems. I really hope your might be resolved and Manatee can go back to being the steady support that he has been for you.

starfishy

(((Jones))) I'm short on wisdom, but still thinking of you and hoping Manatee is able to understand your feelings and frustrations to work through this rupture with you. I'm sorry it has so negatively impacted your H's feelings about therapy. That is really hard.

(((Jones)))

I'm short on words and wisdom right now, but I wanted you to know that I hope that everything can be worked out and I'm sorry you are going through this.

Hi Jones,

I'm not sure I understand what happened except that you somehow lost faith and trust in Manatee and you are left feeling sort of abandoned by him. You say you feel he is a shallow, empty materialistic life-styler and although I have no idea what he did to make you see him that way, I do hope you can repair this with him. Sometimes huge progress is made after a bad disruption. In any event, I hope you can journal some of your feelings to share with him when he gets back from his trip. I am sorry this has impacted your couples therapy in such a negative way. Wish I could offer some wise words to you but I am short on them these days.

Sending you lots of warm hugs.


TN

Dearest Jones, I am so sorry to hear how totally crummy the couples session ended up, and that Manatee has disappointed and failed you. I'm so sorry to hear that your H will no longer be willing to come to couples sessions because of his screw-up. And I'm sorry that you are left holding the bag, on your own, feeling abandoned while Manatee waltzes off on vacation, on his merry way. Please give yourself a big hug from me, and know how much I am thinking of you and sending you love and care as you navigate this painfully difficult situation. I think it sucks that there is a no out-of-session contact policy for stuff like this. When things are fresh and in the moment- that is the time to discuss them, not days later when so much has happened, been resolved or processed already. It is one of the biggest weaknesses of therapy, I believe, that inevitably things cannot be talked through at the time and the moment that they need to be talked through. So I hope that you don't put undue pressure on yourself to "save it" until Thursday, since processing it by then is somewhat inevitable anyway. I'm not saying, take a defeatest approach about it, but I am saying that you might not be able to control that anyway, even if you try really hard. It's always that way with therapy. I find it (at times) useless unless something *just* happened- and I happen to be able to talk about it right then. To my mind, the no out of session contact policy, shows a lack of commitment on the part of the firm, or the T if it is his personal policy across the board, because of the neccessity to be able to get that reassurance until you can process it with the T in session. But I also understand the necessity to accept it, the way it is. still. it sucks.

I hope you will be able to navigate through this without too many road blocks, and that you will find out that Manatee has more to offer than it feels like he does right now after the sucky session. I'm glad you are going to talk to him about all of this. Good for you. I admire your resolve.

xoxoxoxox,

baby bird

Thank you so much everyone. Liese, Starfish, Monte, STRM, TN, BB. ((((((hugs))))))

The thing about him being materialistic is just a combination of subtle things about the way he presents himself, and stuff I know from googling. Nothing major. I guess it sort of supports this idea of him as fundamentally not too interested in the moment-to-moment deeper experience, more attracted to the surface. For ages I have been in a state of just feeling trusting of him and the work we have been doing, so it seemed different (like, ok, he's efficient and goal-oriented). Now I feel untrusting and I am kind of reconstructing that other narrative. I'm not sure whether to try to work it out and reinvest the trust or whether to try to pull out.

If I were to say what is most honest it's that I am not sure if we should keep working together but I would like to talk it through with him.

TN, my trust is really shaken because on Friday he asked me about various angles of my relationship - could I live with things the way they are and be happy if they never changed? I said basically things are *ok*, I guess, I can live with it.... I was ambivalent but also feeling hopeless about the possibility of changing anything. Rather than challenging me he said 'well, if things are ok then I guess you can live with it the way they are and be contented." and that was pretty much the end of the session. I felt this real backlash of anger about that, the other side of my ambivalence, felt abandoned by him (like why don't you care if it's only ok? what about the rest of me?) but also know that it's my job to care, not his. Before that in my ambivalence he had been suggesting I needed more boundaries/consequences with my husband. So the next day H copped the boundaries/consequences all wrapped up with the anger and abandonment too.

In fact when I did start talking consequences on Saturday H's T told me (very gently and sweetly, she gets away with this stuff) that that was childish and unconstructive. She knows I can hear stuff like that without freaking out (i.e. anyone can get childish and unconstructive under pressure, so I don't take it personally), but it still left me feeling confused about what is the appropriate way. Yeah, too many cooks spoiling the broth perhaps.

Anyway, the upshot is no more therapy of any kind for H. But actually I knew he was heading in that direction anyway and had kind of already decided that. So I sort of had a crash and burn attitude too.

Part of me, though, feels like Manatee just should have been able to do something about all this. And I do feel like he wasn't on form in some important ways, and I do have big, big doubts about whether he could really work the way I'd need to get anything out of going forward with our individual work.

Love to all,
Jones

(((((JONES)))))

Was wondering how manatee felt when that other T suggested that the consequences and boundaries were childish and unconstructive. Not that it should matter but the four of you were in the room together and it might have had an impact on him keeping or losing his equilibrium.

I'm sure you know the expression, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. That's exactly what I was thinking when you described your Friday night session. It sounds to me like he does care whether or not you are happy but was using reverse psychology on you. It also sounds like you are really starting to care about manatee but you are scared.

My T and I stayed surface for a long time until I was able to get into the transference issues. It was a wall we couldn't get passed until all that stuff was out in the open. I worried too that he wouldn't be able to go as deep as I wanted. The truth is that I was afraid to go deeper.

But some T's just aren't capable of doing the deep work. And that you need to know before you invest any more time and money into the relationship. Remember when manatee told you that some people come to therapy for help for one problem and others stay in therapy for quality of life? My guess from that statement is that he does the deep work. But only he can tell you. Sometimes the hardest conversations turn out to be the best and might bring you closer to him.

Only 2 more days!

(((JONES))))

Liese

((((((Liese))))) Thank you for this lovely message - it's really kind of comforting. Also not, because I know I still need to do the hard work of that conversation! And to face the possibility that really he may not be able to help me.

The other part of that conversation we had about how long I could stay in therapy was that he said he knew of a woman who stayed in therapy with another therapist for 15 years. He said it like that was some kind of marvel or oddity. But it's not odd to me, because I know lots of lovely people who have been in therapy for that long, including my own mum. So I ended up feeling after that conversation like - he can say it's up to me but he still has his preferred style of working and his own assessment of my needs and my 'vibe' of both of those is short-term.

Regardless, I have thought about you and your T a few times in relation to this. I used to think your T wasn't into long-term work too, and it's really nice that he is. It makes me think that maybe what I'm assuming about Manatee isn't so certain.

love,
Jones

(((((JONES)))))

Yes you are right. Things HAVE been rocky with my T and I for the past year but we've really worked through some difficult stuff. (IT WAS REALLY HARD!) I now know that he believes that the relationship IS the therapy. I had so many fears of intimacy that caused me NOT to open up to him, he was having a hard time reading me and so many wires got crossed. He knows I love him deeply (I'm with him now almost 4 years) and our relationship actually only deepened since I revealed that. I was so afraid to tell him, so afraid of the rejection. Instead, he's just been amazingly caring and open and warm. But I suppose it could have turned out the other way as well. (Thank god it didn't!!!) However, even though it has been hard and there were times that I wanted to leave, he always told me there was more work to do - which encouraged me to stay.

But he took my cues. When I wanted distance, he gave me distance. When I wanted closeness, he gave me closeness. He just didn't give me closeness. (I probably would have run if he had.) But I also have to say that I feel as though my T "hid" his caring side from me for a long time. This is a conversation I still need to have with him. But I can see only now just how caring and dedicated he is. Instead of asking, do you care about me and I need you to care about me, I was taking cues from the way he dressed (very nice dresser) and other things and coming to conclusions about him based on preconceived notions. I had an idea in my head that he basically had to neglect himself in order to prove that he was a caring person. If he takes such good care of himself, surely he has to be self-absorbed and materialistic and selfish and narcissistic and all the rest. It's laughable now to see how far that is from the truth of who he is.



I've been reading Attachment in Psychotherapy by David Wallin. It's fascinating because it talks a lot about the therapists attachment style, something I hadn't given thought to before. And how the attachment styles of the therapist interact with the different attachment styles of the client. And the countertransference to pay attention to, depending upon the different attachment styles. Something like that could be going on between you and manatee. You just don't know. Of course, the therapist is supposed to be on top of it but according to Wallin, it's often extremely hard for therapists to be on top of their own unconscious crap. But that the countertransference often helps the client grow when the T becomes aware of it and can break the cycle of the "enactment".

And, so, yes, it is possible you could be reading manatee wrong. And you haven't even been with him for a year yet, have you? There is a huge difference between say being in therapy for 1 year vs. being in therapy for 15 years. You may not need or want 15 years of therapy. Maybe you'll want 4 years or 10 years. Maybe you just need to know that you can stay as long as you want and that it will be your choice when you leave. And maybe you have to find out just who manatee is vs. who you think he is. I haven't known you that long but since I've been on the forum, it seems as though you and manatee have been working really well together. It's worth putting in the time and effort (read - scary) to find out if your fears are justified or if they are just that, fears.

When I read your whole scenario, it reminded me of an episode of In Treatment that I just watched. Paul and his wife were talking to his therapist and his therapist apparently put words into his wife's mouth. Paul got really upset and said to his wife, while scolding his therapist, "you know what she's doing don't you? She's putting thoughts in your head that could take years to get to in therapy." And then he turned to the therapist and said something like, "you're not respecting the process." I thought of that in relation to how your session ended Friday night and perhaps you wanting manatee to say something more, give you something me and you feeling abandoned. Maybe he was pulling back to let you come to the conclusion on your own???

Sorry if this is so convoluted and disorganized. Hope things get better for you.

xoxo

Liese

Liese, I really appreciate this message. Thank you. Curse those snappy dressers. I totally take 'messages' from that too. Like - how can I relate to you when you own really stylish sunglasses? What kind of person ARE you? :P

Yeah, I'm not sure how long I've been with Manatee. Less than a year I think but I'm not sure. Actually it was after Christmas so must be only 8 months or so. A lot of it has been good but I'm convinced he prefers short term and is basically done with me. And to be honest I'm not sure what I have left to do - I don't have a store of traumas waiting to be explored at this stage. I just feel like I want him there.

Anyway, I will try to ask him tonight. And I will try to explain how I felt Friday and Saturday. Once again, though, I feel ok now and it is hard to know what to say. I will try.

It's weird thinking of them having their own attachment/counter-transference stuff. Sometimes I really see him react - usually he has a strong opinion about some social stuff that I do (where I have to make ethical decisions in my job etc) and then he pulls himself back. Or he gets sheepish about something, not knowing some general knowledge thing or having to fill his coffee cup up before the session and I think what? Why do you care what I think? And why would I have an opinion about that?

I'll let you know how it goes.

Love,
jones

quote:

A lot of it has been good but I'm convinced he prefers short term and is basically done with me. And to be honest I'm not sure what I have left to do - I don't have a store of traumas waiting to be explored at this stage. I just feel like I want him there.

Dear Jones, I feel very much like this. I may well have a store of trauma to be explored (I don't really know about that, though) but I *feel* like this. And I'm not sure that it's ok, in my case, although I am certain that it's perfectly ok in yours. I do not think it was ok with guru T, and I think that is where we hit a wall. Wouldn't it be great if you could say, just this, to Manatee. It's quite possible that while trauma may have been explored, you may have a lot more of real true attachment injury than any T has really recognized and been willing to truly help with. It requires a great deal of painful humility to admit that we are needy...in deep, painful, vulnerable emotional need. I have spent a lifetime avoiding the admission of this! I'm still not able to open it up. Not really. Not with my spouse where it really counts, day-to-day. Or with my family or close friends, where it might make a difference in my and their happiness and level of contentment from relationship with me. In the end it's all about love, I'm finding...and trying to discover wth love really is. Is love...love for self? Or is love putting *me* on the line for someone else? Or...is love found somewhere in between all of that...that is probably the right answer. So I ask myself, how does my relationship with cowboy help me to grow in love? So far the answer seems to be, that I feel just a bit more secure just because "he's there" and it gives me the courage to have difficult conversations with the people who are in my everyday life, and to make connections with them...even though they are painful. I know there is somebody there that I can go to with the painful, day-to-day interaction that happen...he's there. It helps to think..."maybe I'll tell him about this- or that." It helps. I feel less alone, and that is really important to my survival. I think it is very valuable to just "need him there." When we have a difficult life, or a difficult relationship- day-to-day- it is important to have someone to process things with, who cares about us unconditionally. And...it is possible to find that. Truly it is. Whether with the T you are with, or another T, or a friend, or a spouse or a pastor. the T relationship is the most constant and supposed to be the most reliably "yours" though. That's why it works, I suppose, especially if there are not judgements about when we are "supposed" to leave. I worry about that with Cowboy, too, even though not experiencing transference or attachment with him.

I just think...what about the everyday trauma of living and having relationships that cause us pain in unmet needs? ...aren't we allowed to have feelings about that...aren't we allowed to need someone there to help with that trauma?

Keep talking~ love to you,

Beebs

(((((JONES)))))

Thinking of you today and hoping everything turns out the way you want it.

Liese

happy jones. great session. heaps of love beebs and liese - (((((((((((hugs both))))))))))).

will try to update tomorrow.

xxxx

((((((((((Jones)))))) hooray!

((((JONES)))))

So happy for you. Will be looking for that update. Also just wanted to tell you that I had my session today. My T was looking a little too snazzy and I was having a tough time getting past it. LOl!! It made me think of you and the conversations we've been having. And then I fall prey to it today after all my preaching. Grrrrr.

Very happy for Happy Jones!!!

Can't wait to hear the update! Sleep well, Jonesy

SG

Aww, thanks you guys, you are the sweetest!!

Soooo... by the time my session rolled around I was feeling a lot more philosophical about the whole thing. I guess I got to the point where I could see that actually H really didn't want to be in therapy *at all*, and it was going to go this way sooner or later no matter what happened. So I didn't feel like they had messed up on Saturday, or that I had messed up by trying to set boundaries or talking in a VERY straightforward way with H. And then over the last few days H has been much more forthcoming with the communication and stuff that I had been asking of him - I don't know how long it will last, but I can see he is really trying to make an effort, and does want to meet my needs, he just was so locked by the fact that he DIDN'T want to be in therapy and felt forced and had to resist. So I don't feel too despairing at the moment that this is no longer an option - I never wanted to force him. Things have improved so much for us over the last couple of years that maybe this is ok for now, and perhaps things will just keep getting better anyway.

So I went in yesterday and Manatee gave me this big rueful grin and said 'Sooo... things didn't go quite as we had hoped on Saturday!' and we had a laugh together. I told him the stuff above, that H and I had been ok after the session despite everything, and that I was actually feeling quite positive now. He asked if there was anything I felt I wanted to say about it, things that perhaps I felt should have been handled better in the session? And I said not really, I didn't think it would have made any difference, but I had been upset at the time and I had been really pissed off on Friday.

Well, this just kind of slipped out because I was feeling really comfortable in the conversation at that point. He asked what I had been angry about, and suddenly I felt like I was Donald Duck who had just sauntered off the edge of a cliff, only to look down and notice there was nothing under my feet!!

I choked a bit and looked away at that point, and he said "It's okay to say whatever you were feeling." So I started to say that although a lot of things in the relationship were okay, I didn't really want a life that was just okay, but I didn't know what to do about it, because I knew when I tried to change things they would end up like on Saturday. He said 'so you were mad... at yourself? At H?' I took a deep breath and said when he and I talked about this on Friday and I was saying it was okay, and he was saying, 'okay, then it's okay' - well, at that point I just didn't know where to go from there, and it made me mad because I know it is my life and my problem, but still I don't know how to fix it, and I didn't know where to turn. He said 'ahh, I get it now. And you were mad that I didn't challenge that?' and I said YES.

He explained that he assumes that when people come to see him they want to be happy, not just okay, and so if someone is saying things are just okay and then he would sometimes say 'well, okay' as a way of challenging that. And he was concerned that if we went in to the couples session with me saying everything was okay, then H would just take it that everything was okay, and there was nothing he needed to change.

It was so good to be understood on this, and to know that he wasn't trying to leave me there on my own with my same old problems. And from there he understood how I got so angry at H, too.

After that he asked if there was more to say on the session. He said that he and H's T have really different approaches, and that actually the chemistry wasn't so great between them and maybe that hadn't helped either. He also said he had got a bit aggressive with H at one point because he was frustrated that he wasn't hearing any of us and he wasn't hearing me, and he wondered if I was upset at that. I said no, because I knew how H was in that state, and how frustrating it is, and how nothing makes any difference.

So after we'd talked that out, and more of the positive relationship-stuff that had emerged since the session, he said a couple of things about H and then asked where I wanted to go from there. Whether I wanted to keep trying to work on the relationship without the couples' counselling, or just focus on my stuff. I said I wanted to focus on my stuff for now, but then I foundered when he asked what. I said this was a real difficulty for me, because I didn't know where there was to go from here and I couldn't see the way forward, or where we had been. I said I didn't feel like we had been wasting time, but that I couldn't get a sense of overview or direction.

The session from there was great, because in fact I have needed that overview for a long, long while, and have not known how to ask for it. We revisited some of the key stuff in the therapy so far, and talked about where I am now in relation to each part. His memory is better than mine on some of it! We talked about the EMDR targets we've worked on, and how I felt about them now (fine about the incidents, better in the symptoms, but with one big relapse). We also talked about my creative work and how it is easier now, but that it still gets pushed aside whenever something comes up in my life, so I figured out that one of my goals now is to get to the point where it is a constant in my life and doesn't get pushed aside.

And then he asked me about this intense session we'd had a few months ago, where he told me he wanted to change our communication. He had told me that he was no longer going to give me responses unless he was sure that I was really wanting a response - apparently I was talking so quietly and trailing off that he wasn't even sure I was talking TO him half the time. He asked me what that session was like for me and we talked about it for quite a while. That it was scary at first, unsafe and unfamiliar. He asked if that was because we had been cruising along and then he suddenly was making demands of me? I agreed it was partly that, but partly also that I felt like I had been doing something wrong. But then it also immediately changed my sense of HIM. That there was then this blanket invitation to speak, a kind of welcome. I couldn't believe that he hadn't KNOWN that I wanted his response and realised I had to really project that. (There's more to say about this that I didn't get to at the time - that I was also really scared of *losing* his response, and so I really stepped up).

He told me all about why he did that - that it was something he was thinking about since our first session, because he was trying to figure out why I was so quiet, where my voice was, because he thought it was maybe connected to my creative voice disappearing in my life. He wanted do know - Did I HAVE a voice? Did I want to be in therapy? What would I do if he challenged me like that? And he was really happy to find out that I DID have one and I could use it and that I DID want to be there, and that I could step up like that. And that I had been incredibly clear and eloquent that day, and he wrote down almost every word I said (that part is true - he read some of it out to me the next week). So he was glad he did that. I said I was glad too because it felt really free, but it's hard to hold on to that.

I then took a risk and said that I had felt that same freedom when we first started talking about me sharing my creative work with him, and I felt that same sense of invitation and welcome, and I had this incredibly productive period for a while. This was a risky thing to mention because it didn't work out so well. When I ended up sharing it with him I felt really shut down again for a number of reasons to do with his response, and we never talked about that. So by bringing it up I knew we might go there. Sure enough he said straight away 'And how was it to share it, was there anything missing in the response?'

We were getting close to the end of the session so I didn't want to go into this in too much depth but I managed to actually speak and say 'I guess I had wanted to talk about it more.' He said he liked to read my work and that he assumed given various things in my life I didn't actually need his critique or his praise, and he wasn't going to read as a critic anyway, but for the meaning for me. I said that was what I'd wanted and he said that we could certainly incorporate it more, make it part of our working process. I said I knew it was difficult time-wise, and that I didn't want to push it on him because if he happened to not like my style then it would be incredibly arduous to read. He asked again if there was anything in his response that was lacking. And then I got brave and went right to the very sensitive part - I said 'I don't know what you actually said, but I felt like it wasn't wanted.'

I kind of choked as I said it but it was so good to say it and have it out there. He didn't respond directly but he really heard it, I know. And he kind of sat back and told me that he likes to write too, and he has no idea how to go about certain things. It was an interesting thing to share right then. I didn't feel like he was shifting the topic but maybe telling me a bit about what was going on between us around this. That he has a personal interest in this too, and maybe that is part of the dynamic that is a bit weird here.

AND THEN THAT WAS THE END OF THE SESSION! Ha, I know, you thought it was going on forever....

I feel soooo much better. I feel like he is real, he exists, and I exist too, and we still have things to work on, and he has been present this whole time and we have made progress and it has been real. And he's not throwing me out next week lol. I feel like I still have things I need to raise - like this feeling that I am going to have to finish any minute - but it really feels much safer again and like I have more room to talk about some of those things now.

THANK YOU everyone for your lovely support. It has been difficult this little while and it is so good to have friends here to talk to about the hard stuff.

Love to everyone,
Jones

(((((Jones)))))
That was SO wonderful to read, thank you for sharing that with us. I am so glad that you were able to speak so openly with Manatee and directly address the relationship. There is a palpable sense of relief shining through every word. You were very courageous in seeing this through and being open about how you felt. I am so glad that manatee was able to hear you and that you came away with such a strong sense of progress and hope.

Yea you!!

AG

Yay, Jones! I am so glad to read this, what a great session! It just sounds like the communication between you was so open. Doesn't it feel great to really say what is going on and then...be met there? I love it. You did really, really good work, and it's clear that Manatee is in this for you and wants to be your T...hooray! I really get the sense from reading, especially about his response to your creative work and how he has questions about his own writing...that the relationship is real and that he is being so honest. I like that..but I also like that he is taking care of you in certain ways. Like being willing to incorporate your stuff into the sessions. I doubt very much that he would find your work arduous to read...I really, really do doubt that.

Thanks so much for sharing!

Love, and hugs,

BB

(((((JONES)))))

I started to read your lastest post this morning but had to leave the house before I could finish. And I just have a spare moment now. I'm so happy that you were able to say some difficult things and that you were able to get what you wanted out of the sesion. I'm also glad manatee seemed to really get you. That's the best of all.

I wish I could comment more but I absolutely have to go to bed now. ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

xoxo

Liese

My dear AG, BB, SG, DF, Liese, and everyone,

Thanks for being happy with me! I don't quite know what has changed, just that I was really really protecting some of that information hard - the stuff about sharing things with him, and had been for months. Now the relief at having it out there is lovely - I feel closer and a little more secure, and a sort of a sense of wonder at what might come next.

Beebles I wonder if you are right about this:

quote:

It's quite possible that while trauma may have been explored, you may have a lot more of real true attachment injury than any T has really recognized and been willing to truly help with.

It's something I'd like to explore in time, and while I don't think Manatee would use those words with me - I'm starting to feel more comfortable moving near that stuff, to find out his thoughts.

I'm so glad, Bebe, that you have Cowboy *there* for you now. I know it takes such a long time to draw close. There's no rush though. And as you say -

quote:

I just think...what about the everyday trauma of living and having relationships that cause us pain in unmet needs? ...aren't we allowed to have feelings about that...aren't we allowed to need someone there to help with that trauma?

Yes, I think. Yes. Thank you honey for being there. I have no idea how the sharing-of-creative-stuff is going to work out, but at least I know we can work on it together now.

Aglet, lovely cheer squad!! Somehow it did take a lot of preparation and readiness to be open when the opportunity came up - to just take those steps off the cliff. I'm so glad there was a feather bed at the bottom! I hope you know you are my role model for courage. You are a constant advocate for the benefits of being open in therapy, and it is HARD to go that way so often, but when I do I find again that your guidance and wisdom has been so sound, and that the payoffs are so great. *Thank you*.

Liese, thank you too for those words before sleep! And for helping me through this one, it was hard to pull myself in there but knowing and remembering about your situation really helped me get a different perspective on this, and to feel like it was worth exploring further instead of pulling away. I hope you had a super restful sleep.

xxxJones

((((Jones)))) Just wanted to say I am SO glad and thank you very much for sharing how your session went with Manatee.

Thanks Yaku! ((((Yaku))))

(((Jones))) Thank you so much for what you said, I am incredibly honored that you would see me that way as you have so much wisdom of your own. It means so much to me to think that my experience was of help to you; it was very generous of you to say so. My hope is that you continue to experience freedom in your therapy that leads to healing.

much love,
Aglet