You really are in a tough place. You lose either way at the end of the day. Personally I am not going to therapy because mine was termintated, and what I was going to I could afford, but it wasn't proper therapy with a qualified therapist because I couldn't afford that. So now in a nutshell I can't go to therapy because I can't afford it. It was VERY DIFFICULT at first and I'm not saying it is easy now, because it is not, but lets just say I am coping in my own way. We all have different problems so it is difficult for me to sit here and speculate what is best for you and your family. Only you and your T will know what the best solution out of this very difficult situation is. Perhaps you could go to therapy less frequently, or perhaps your T will allow you to communicate with her via mail for a little less than what you are paying now? I am not sure if your T is a psychologist or just a counsellor. Counsellors charge less, so if she is a psychologist that might be an option? Support groups might be an option to consider? None of these options are the ideal but they might just be necessary for the moment? It is a difficult one to answer because you do need to take care of yourself so that you can take care of your family. Kind of like when you are flying and the flight attendant is giving a safety demonstration, they always say...."the mask will drop out from above, grab hold of the mask, and breathe the oxygen before giving oxygen to the children" (something like that anyway). That is because we need to take care of ourselves in order to be there for our children. I wish I had a clean cut answer for you. I do sympathise and hope it all works out one way or another. Sometimes we are a lot stronger than we realise.

((yaku))

Finances are always so difficult to manage and I can't imagine how difficult this is and how much it hurts. I tie a lot of security to where I live too, like your H but kids can and do survive moves - I know I had a couple growing up and bounced back and your H can adjust too.

For some reason I had thought you said a while ago that your T was willing to see you for free/no co-pay? Is that no longer the case? I know that would be hard to accept but if both you and your T know it would render you nonfunctional to leave it would be an option you'd have to take even if it felt bad (and I could understand it would). Sorry if I'd understood wrong. Or is it the time thing that you cannot hold down a job right now? (I can barely too, I get it!)

I guess if I were in the same conflict I'd do hmmm... it is hard because what is best for you is what is best for your family. I know I go to therapy despite the considerable almost impossible to manage financial strain. I unfortunately live alone, but also fortunately do not have child to worry about too. I think I would take what was offered to me, if anything. Ask for help, I guess.. if possible... from church? I don't know. Is there any way your T could meet with both of you about what to do? Or to meet with a financial planner? I guess I can't really answer what I'd do because I'd do all those other things before I'd concede and I think that is what you are trying to do and I hope you can find something, it ISN'T your fault.

I think it is heartbreaking that so many medical decisions are made not based on what is best but rather based on money. It's horrific. My life doesn't have a monetary value; my health doesn't either... but... it does. It's awful and I'm so sorry.

It's not your fault - this stuff is hard and unfortunately... money is a stressful reality of life It sucks and I'm very sorry about where you're at right now. It sounds like a rock and a hard place.

(((all))) Thanks! Just knowing you guys are thinking of me means a lot right now.

Cat - to clarify. T said he would still see me if I lost insurance, but we'd scale back. I think he has a legal obligation to collect the copay or something. But, when he thanked me for my check Monday, I made a joke about how if I didn't pay, I'd be forcing him to do more work to harrass me about it and he said he doesn't do that. So, I guess, if I just stopped paying him, he would say/do nothing about it and just trust God to take care of his needs. But, ugh, how yucky would that be to just stop paying him without saying anything, 'cause if it were an actual "agreement," it would violate some sort of contract with the insurance company or maybe I misunderstood that part. I talked to T about it today and he was just emphasizing the not being my fault stuff. We should get together, the three of us, and talk about it. H just had me pay the mortgage today and wait, cross our fingers that he gets a huge raise, because they just basically put him in charge of a new thing at work. I also just applied to two part-time child-care jobs that might interfere with therapy a little, but also don't require driving except to/from their place.

Ugh, I feel like I have the reverse Midas touch right now. Not only do I destroy the things I touch, but instead of turning to gold, they turn to debt or something.

But, in the end, you know, I don't care at all about the money, just my family. I just want to do my best to give Boo especially what she deserves and for H to feel like he isn't working for nothing. Then again, on some level, I just don't get how paying into a place that won't recover its value for 10-15 years (while we have a giant balloon payment on two "silent" subordinate loans accruing interest at the end of 30) makes him feel more secure than renting...

I'm not even really that stressed. I just feel like I know what the right thing to do is, both from a fiscal and a health standpoint...but the "right" thing is unimaginably painful to someone I love and I don't want to force it, since it feels like (as I always have made 1/2 of what he does or less), not my money to decide about.

(((Yaku)))

I'm so sorry that you're having to face this unimaginable decision. I don't have much I can offer, but I will say that my T and I made an agreement about paying without insurance a while ago. It's in my father's name, and one time she brought up how she was uncomfortable using his insurance because of everything. So she offered me a super low fee per session (something that nearly anyone, regardless of income, could afford). We had to talk about it for a while (and over a few sessions) because I felt really uncomfortable at first. And I still often feel uncomfortable, but I'm also really appreciative that she was willing to do such a kind thing. She said that a therapist of hers a long time ago did the same thing for her, so she described it as paying it forward.

I'm saying this because I want you to know that our Ts do care, and anything your T offers you to help keep up your sessions is genuine. Having your Ts support will be important no matter what decision you have to make. If you think that your T would agree to going without payment (or maybe reducing the fee drastically), then definitely have a frank talk with him about it beforehand. And keep in mind, that your T will be honest with you, and whatever he offers you will honestly be because he wants to and because he knows he can manage it financially.

So sorry you're having to face this.

aw, Yaku...how hard! I don't know what to say, except that when push comes to shove, we usually find a way somehow, to make things work out as best we can. This will work out too. Money issues are so difficult, and- when you are in need and your needs being met depends on money- is very triggering stuff, at least for me. T's ethically have to collect fees, I think, or it becomes a boundary violation- someone correct me if I am dead wrong, which I may well be- but I'm certain that you and your T will be able to work something out about it that will be making it possible to not move in order to stay in therapy. I hope! You must be pretty scared right now. (((((Yaku))))

It doesn't seem like a good option to use dissociation just to function, though. I mean, that's a pretty conscious choice, and I don't personally think it would be possible to be a "good enough" parent if you were making conscious choices to dissociate severely to cope. So there has to be another option than that, and hopefully- in a worst case scenario where you really did have to quit for awhile- it would be a situation where you and T came up with solid options to help you while you and H get your finances together.

The other thing, is that preschool- IMHO- is a luxury item, and not necessary for a child with parents who care and are present for her. So it seems to me that Boo would do quite well at home with you, her loving mommy- and that may help you to be able to stay in therapy in order to find ways to be more present for her. A loving choice, not at all selfish- who do children need more, than mommy? Certainly not preschool. controversial thing to say maybe- but it's how I feel. You can find many wonderful programs that will help her learn to read, write, and know all her early learning skills for kindergarten right from home, in a loving connected environment that will be very healthy for her- with a functional mom.

Please understand- this is a very black pot giving advice to a pretty shiny one, so- take with a grain of salt!

Love,

Beebs

Hugs,

BB

Thanks for the continued support, you guys. I am feeling ok about it. I actually want out of the losing investment...but H just had me pay this month as he wants to wait until July and see if he gets a miracle raise. My thought is, even if he does, we'll be paying $500 to $700 more a month between mortvgage and HOA than we would be renting and paying extra taxes. If he got a raise, we could put into savings then. Staying here, we just stay underwater and lose the money when we finally try to sell. It's basically renting at a much higher than market rate. It makes no logical sense to not at least try the shortsale. If this were a commitment to our contract, I could kind of understand, but we pay PMI, so the mortgager is covered for any money they lose due to short sale or foreclosure. It is purely based on H liking our home and wanting the security of knowing someone can't tell him to move. Is that worth $6000 a year? Sigh. It doesn't make sense and he flipflops on wait and see and let's start preparing to move. He had me pay the dang thing and then two hours later was talking about calling a real estate agent. WTF? If we're leaving, we should have saved that money for a deposit. When I told them before we'd just mail them the keys as soon as we stopped paying, THEY told me to just stop paying and go through the foreclosure process as normal.

As far as Boo and preschool, she actually cognitively has no problems, but needs the experience in social and structured environments. Most her friends outside school are younger and so she is used to playing down to their level. She is scheduled to go into Kindergarten as one of the youngest in her year (one week before the new cutoff in our state), so I want to give her as much chance as possible to succeed. Plus, she loves school, even if she makes a fuss for 30 seconds when I drop her off. If not school or some other paid activity, I can only offer her structured play at church once a week. I know it's not the end of the world, but it's definitely a priority for me (and gives me some time to myself that I don't get otherwise, I won't lie). Anyway, if we had to cut it, I would, but I would cut therapy first.

In the end, I'm not so much "Ahhh, I'm trapped," as I am sick of being in limbo about this while we continue to go further into debt. I want a decision made, so I can start acting on it. I don't want to indefinitely wait and see. We're not going to be homeless or starving, we'll be together...I just want to start living with a sensical budget ASAP. Planning to go negative every month if I can't work has me stressed out. I don't get how H can prefer that to having to move...well, I do, but I just get into "do what we gotta do" mode...maybe I need to slow down.

(((YAKU))))

Such a difficult decision to make. I feel for you. In my opinion the therapy would be a priority because that will give you the security and emotional stability for BOO. I don't know about where you live but in my area the local bar association is giving free legal advice re: mortgage foreclosure assistance. I went the other night just to observe and the attorney I sat with was actually advising the people in your position to stop paying on the house and put that money into a bank account, that the foreclosure proceedings take up to two years and then use the cash you've saved to buy a new house.

I wasn't really sure I liked his advice but I just wanted to throw it out there to you to give you something to think about. But also to let you know that you might be able to get some free legal advice that can help you sort through your problems. In addition to the real estate lawyer I was sitting with, they had housing counselors and bankruptcy attorneys present and people were going from one to the other.

As a homeowner, I always say that home ownership is highly overrated. I'm also someone whose own parents never moved and my Mom still lives in the same house I was born in. And I have difficulty adjusting to new situations. I'm not sure what the experts would say about it but I do think some change is good and being able to adjust to change is a skill/resource that will be an asset in getting through life.

Can you have T talk to H about his own fears? Maybe once H works through whatever it is that's holding him back, he'll be more open to looking for alternatives.



Liese

Oh Yaku, I am sorry you are having to make this decision. Only you can decide what is best for you and your family. I support whatever decision you make and understand that no matter what route you take, it was a difficult choice.

(((Liese))) Thanks. I know staying in therapy is best for our family, but I also know that H sinking into a deep depression over losing the condo is not.

We would at least try to short sale (although H is determined he won't go out of his way to make the place pristine--yeah, realtors are totally going to want to work with us), because he really doesn't care if they end up foreclosing. We won't try to drag anything out, but we would probably stop paying (maybe as of June) and start just SPAM-ing our debt and hope that the hit to our credit doesn't make it hard for us to rent. It's ridiculous out here, lots of competition, such that even renting a two bedroom apartment will set you back $2000 a month.

We definitely couldn't save enough to buy a new house here during the foreclosure process, but we could pay off at least one major debt to reduce our monthly costs. My only fear is that I am wrong that the market won't rebound enough for us to recover our losses in the next five years and then H will feel like I basically sabotaged our future by convincing him to get rid of this place.

I talked to H about talking to our T (who has just done a shortsale) and our pastor (who is in the middle of one) about this, both as people who understand what he's going through and as safe people to share all the past stuff it brings up for him. He said he's talked about this stuff with friends and family before and talking doesn't change anything. He also said that he feels God isn't rewarding us for the hard work we've done and the trust we've placed in Him. So, basically, I'm trying really hard to not feel as if my therapy and struggling to make enough money is destroying his faith. Even H said that's between him and God and to stay out of it, but it just feels so yucky to see him defeated.

I've basically convinced him, "Hey, our goal is to be saving up for eventually buying a better place. Do you see us meeting that goal with how far underwater we are here, fighting not to go further into debt while we wait for the market to come up?" He admitted no, but he already gave up "his" truck and now he is giving up "his" house and "his" sense that he can provide stability for his family, even with a very good salary. So, he feels like he is making all these sacrifices, because I wanted to stay in this area years ago when we had the opportunity to relocate. And the "deal" for us staying here was that I was going to have to work and now I can't, so he is also talking about relocating us, which (attachment to T, of course) freaks me the f--- out.

Anyway, sorry, that is a lot, but that's where I am at with it tonight. It just feels like it would be a lot easier for me to give up T and keep others happy than to deal with the conflict of prioritizing my needs and knowing it requires accommodation from others for once. That is such a yucky feeling. I'd rather do almost anything else.

LG - Thanks for coming to support me here. It feels good, as simple as it is, to hear that no matter what I do, it's OK. Thanks so much.


to you all. I'm sorry I haven't been great at individual replies, but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate all the comments. I'm just really overwhelmed at the hugeness of these sort of decisions. Basically, H has now said, call the realtor, get it over with. I wish he had done that before we paid the May bill, but oh well. I dunno. He goes back and forth so often that even if he knows this is the "best" decision, he might be so distraught over it that we continue to delay, try to find other options, like we have been for the last year.

Yaku, this is so hard, I'm sorry. All the more reason to stick with your T. He sounds flexible and eager to continue. Are you sure he wouldn't accommodate a drastically lower fee?

effed - I'm paying a $30 copay for him to do double sessions with me (sometimes longer). He gets paid $95 by my insurance company and they cover 75 minutes. His usual (non-discounted) fee is $150 per hour. So, I am getting 2+ hours for $125, three times a week. For H's sessions (which go through my single case agreement), he only gets paid $100 for a single hour. Also, sometimes the Skype sessions haven't been charged for (though I didn't know at the time and kept paying as if they were), because he was afraid of running out of sessions on the single case agreement. He also does all the texting and reading of emails for free. Per his contract with the insurance company, he has to charge for the copays (though if I just said nothing and didn't pay, he probably would do nothing--but yuck!). So, all I could ask him to do is not charge for some of the sessions. In the end, the biggest thing is that our situation is unsustainable, because we're basically renting, since our equity is so negative. I'm at peace with it, if only it didn't hurt my H so much.