MH,

FWIW, I have experienced all the conflicting feelings your talking about. I think was is surfacing is the horrible bind you experienced even BEFORE you're capability for speech, logical reasoning or explicit memories. This is exactly the conflict you experienced that got laid down on such a deep level as implicit memory. (The stuff we know how to do without being able to remember how we learned it. Think tying your shoe, or being able to read.)

You were caught between two life and death imperitives. The first is the biologically driven, deeply instinctive drive in a human being to stay close to their attachment figure. But when that attachment figure was a source of pain, we form an equally strong belief, also life and death to our limbic system, to stay AWAY from the source of danger. It is a hellish bind and puts a child in an unspeakably impossible position. Which is why so many of us develop such extreme behaviors (such as disassociation, eating disorder, addictions, etc) in order to cope with it.

So here you are, trying to move closer to an attachment figure and OF COURSE these feelings are being evoked. Have you ever gone back to visit a place that you have good memories of, and the sights and sounds brought back those good feelings? This is the same thing, you've walked back into a familiar situation, one that has deep unconscious roots and its evoking very deep feelings. Many of which were unprocessed at the time because your AF was supposed to help you deal with them and wasn't there to help you. Another part of these injuries that makes them so egregious.

One of the things that my T was very consistent about and I found very healing was that he was REALLY comfortable with my doubts and not being able to hold on to his presence. His explicit reason for his generous contact policy was based on exactly this. He understood completely why I would struggle so much to trust him, to be terrified of being abandoned and terrified of staying. That dynamic played out again and again throughout our work. It was one of the last issues I talked to him about as I left.
But he never took it personally. His allowing me that space and time to get where I needed was very important to me, as was his trust in the process, that if he just allowed me to continue to express all these feelings and be heard and understood, the end result was that I could come to trust him. Happily enough, he turned out to be right.

But he also told me a number of times that it would take however long it would take and aside from not wanting to see me in pain, it was perfectly ok to take as long as I needed to. I believe that your T cares very deeply for you and is striving to do her best for you, but I do worry that her understanding of attachment and what it looks like to heal from these injuries is not all it could be and that she's pushing you which is probably having the opposite effect she wishes, which is to prolong you working through these feelings and coming to understand that although at one time, they made total sense and were a reasonable reaction, they aren't true anymore, you can trust her.

I am so sorry for the terrible pain you're in.

AG

((((((((MH)))))))))

I'm so sorry for the awful confusion and chaos of that place you are in. Hang in there...it does get better at times, but seems like an eternity, waiting. ((((MH))))) I just wanted to offer my support. I think the progress, since what you are dealing with from the past, is just slower. I wish sometimes that T's would never, ever, say the word "should." I guess it would be hard for them to eliminate that word from their use of the language, but still, I can wish, can't I?

BB

quote:

maybe it is impossible for me to achieve trust, to decipher reality accurately and let go of suspicion.

When I read this and then looked at your post I thought to myself, “Well, it’s obviously not impossible because she’s already half way there.” I look at the good and bad side as like 50/50… and as you keep working hard, and giving it time, the bad side will gain less and less control. I was telling my T last session that I feel like I’m at that in between point. Sometimes I honestly believe that he has my best interest in mind, he would never do anything to hurt me, and he is there for me when I need him. Then other times I honestly believe that he is out to get me, he’s trying to change who I am, and he’s trying to convert me. But I know that I’m half way there because in the beginning I didn’t have any of the trust or positive feels about him. So the part of you that says “no wait, please don’t go!” IS progress. And it will feel like its taking FOREVER, but then all of a sudden you’ll look back and realize that those negative voices have drowned out for good by the positive ones.

quote:

my T tells me i should be at a point by now where i can hold onto a soothing image of her between sessions.

Oh gosh, this worries me!! There is noooo “should”. My T is constantly reminding me of this. WHATEVER you are feeling is the RIGHT way to feel.

MH,
I just wanted to offer my support. I'm sorry you are feeling so much pain. I know it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. My hope is for you to see it and experience it soon so you can start to live without so much pain. You deserve that so much.

PG

I just wanted to add that I am sorry that you are experiencing these feelings MH, I know hard and right off balance having this inner conflict can make you feel. I have no solutions or advice but wanted to send you support,

starfish

Mad Hatter- jumping in late here too- i wanted the first time i saw this thread to reply, because i was so impressed by the way you pointed out these true paradox-feelings... this conflicts is indeed hard, especially because such feelings seem to keep on "fighting" non stop. I think i understand how tired you must feel being invadated by these confusing intens feelings directed towards your T. i have more than once (ok, maybe 20 times) tried to explained my T how everything- all my issues and feelings-seems to always be directed against him. I still dont get that, why that is...

I am glad to see that AG (again) have explained some of this wisely to you. Mad Hatter, i dont think this "push and pull" dynamic will last forever, and i like to send you lots of support and creds to you for be able to put this struggle so good into words. Recognizing these paradoxes might help to gain some sense of "controll" and over-view when the conflicting feelings strikes in...?
Good luck with next session also!

MH I wondered how you are doing - have you seen your T since you posted this thread?

I just wanted to add my piece about that comment by your T where she says that by now you should be at a point where you are able to hold onto a soothing image of her between sessions. While that’s undoubtedly a desirable part of the therapeutic process, what bothers me is that in saying that she is invalidating and not hearing what’s really going on for and in you. By saying that’s what she expects you to be able to do, she’s telling you that what you ARE doing is somehow ‘wrong’ or ‘incorrect’.

If you’re shuttling between such extreme opposite feelings and thoughts then that’s where you’re at - part of the whole healing thing is to be able to sit with and learn it’s ok to have contradictory and conflicting feelings at the same time. So one moment you love her and it should be ok to go into that feeling, and the next moment you hate her and it should be just as ok to go into that feeling, and her to stay with you throughout both poles.

I fall over myself all the time because I am totally unable to deal with feeling two contradictory feelings for the same object (say liking and resentment) - the one always cancels the other and I’m left feeling totally screwed and not knowing what the hell I’m supposed to feel or think. I’m counting on a T to let themselves be the object of my conflicting feelings, needs and thoughts - and stay constant throughout it all, so I get a sense of it’s being ok.

I really hope you can get that with your T - I know you’ve been having a hard time with her lately - hope you can come to a place where she at least tries to understand what’s happening for you without the apparent expectations and shoulds she’s been placing on you.

LL

Hello Mad Hatter
We've not officially met!! Sometimes I feel like a voyeur coz I've read as many threads and posts that I can keep up with and some of yours! Seems to me that you've put the questions/queries to your T and she's come up trumps!! MH, I think she's THERE with you, UNDERSTANDS you and CARES for you!! That seems pretty good - now maybe YOU can FEEL it, TRUST it and RELAX with it!! What do I know? Take care
Morgs

MH that's great! Bit by bit you're making yourself known to T and from the sounds of it she really is there for you and does know what she's doing. Good to hear she understands attachment. In retrospect her comment that you 'should' be accessing a good image of her between sessions makes sense - in that that's one of the goals of the therapy, rather than telling you you're supposed to already be able to do that.

Oh that's quite scary about the phases of attachment! Almost sounds like ok stage one you get all this unconditional love and attention but boy you'd better watch out at stage two because all these draconian boundaries will come into force lol. That's just me freaking out applying it to myself. It must be hard for a T to get the right balance between caring and boundaries though.

I'm so glad you talked to her about it and are feeling in a better place now. Good for you for being brave enough to show her the thread. Glad it turned out so well.

LL

MH,
So glad to hear that you were able to be so open with your T and hear her clarify what she meant by "should." Glad to know she thought I had it right and please convey to her I stand corrected about her comprehension of attachment issues and healing from them. (I hope she wasn't offended! Please tell her I was just being concerned for you!).

Pat yourself on the back several times for me please. This is NOT easy stuff to do, and you're being very courageous to continue to walk in and be so open with your T about all this. I am so glad that you are getting what you need.

AG

Hi, MH...sorry to hear you are having a rough night and can't sleep...(me too ) I'm sorry it hurts so badly. It sounds like you and your T are connecting really well...I am glad that she's explaining a bit more for you...I think that helps a bit, just to know, that they know what they are doing...y'know?

Oh, MH, I totally understand about the texts...because I do the same exact thing with emails...it's sooooo hard to stop, because T allows it. But I know it might end up freaking me completely out wondering what the heck he is thinking or if he is thinking anything anyway- for the rest of the week if I send him an email and get no reply! I always end up freaked out badly when that happens, and supress it and can't figure out what the heck is wrong with me- and yet, I still do send the emails even though..!! Because sometimes he does respond, so just right and it is very healing and helpful when that happens, isn't it? To feel you matter and your counselor understands you, in those scary moments of pain or anxiety.

It's sooooo hard to have one hour out of 168, with someone you need so much- how I can sympathise...I've taken to crying when session are over..gosh I'm like a baby...and to feel one minute like you love T and the next like they are not even meaning a word they say...or will never see you again...it's just crazy making stuff. Go easy on yourself...you are making great strides.. just slowly, MH...no rush...you are on the timetable you should be on, here...truly. Oh, I know that is so hard to accept, we want to be pleasing to the T and not need them too much and so on. that's all just stuff from the past...your T doesn't mind if you need her, for long time, or how often...I am sure she wants you to ask, to reach out and ask for connection when you need it, in positive ways...but it is very hard to keep doing that, and there are lots of pitfalls, as you know.

I guess I just wanted to offer my support, MH, and say I understand where you are at.

((((MH))))))

Love,

BB

You can make it...but it will just hurt...ugh, I know. My T says the same exact things as yours, about that email is too hard to connect by, (text in your case) and that I can easily misinterpret, there are misunderstandings that happen and so on.. and, even though I can totally see and accept the logic of what he is saying, and recognize fully that he is coorect, I am stopped up by the fact that what is "good for me" (not communicating via email, but wait for sessions) also inevitable makes life a whole helluva lot more convenient for him too, in not having to take the time to deal with me between sessions. I suspect that this is the *real* reason why I email. To see, will he make the time for me? When he doesn't/can't it kills me, and when he does I'm on cloud nine. What a terrible risk I take when I email him. But I can't seem to stop, except at those times when I am feeling really, really secure about his care for me. I hope this won't trigger you, but when T told me that he likes to hear from me...that helped a lot. I wonder if there is a way to find out, if your T *doesn't mind* or even *likes* to hear from you via text? Might help. (Sorry if you already posted about this question and I missed it )

big huge hug, MH,

BB

Having had him write that to me, has helped, because I remember the words- but yes, MH, I really do question it...I think he is just saying that because he "has to" or as some kind of professional manoever, or whatever. Rationally I can't accept it because I know my T would never initiate contact with me- or something like that- except to ask questions about billing, or schedule. ugh. So you are right...I need to hear it over and over- just as you do. I also struggle with the feelings that my T is secretly rolling his eyes every time he sees a message from me in his inbox, or disgusted with me for being so open with him, etc., and etc... I'm doubting him *a lot* less than I used to lately though. Something has really shifted, I'm not sure what or why, but I begin to think he really does care and like me, more often than I think he does not. It does get better with enough repetition, I guess.

BB

ps, the more open I've gotten with him, the better it has gotten for example one possible interaction could go like this:

Me: "T, I really think that you are just saying that you like to hear from me as some kind of professional manoever..."

T: says...lots of reassuring words...that don't really connect somehow

Next thing is that this works even better when I own it as my own feelings, i.e:

Me: "T, even though I know you are a caring T intellectually, I'm still afraid that you are just saying that you like to hear from me as a professional manoever."

Now, mind you, I recognize that my T is human, and a recent, *huge* revelation is that stuff I say affects him (!!!) like, that I have the ability to hurt his feelings (!!!) by supposing or inferring that he is so uncaring a T. (!!!) So, *in my case* and I really want to draw that distinction, because it's probably not true for everyone- his defensiveness -whether perceived or real- and , if it is real it's very subtle and I just happened to pick up on it, which just happened to be helpful for me- has been a huge help for me in just learning that I can actually have an effect on people, and this is carrying over into my other relationships. oh, the realization that what I say or how I perceive others, what I do, or don't do- can hurt them and damage the relationship. This has been a really important lesson for me, since I grew up in a vacuum where nothing I said or did made any difference whatsoever. But everyone is different, and I know that it is crucial for so many that their T have no reactions at all. My T doesn't cry salty tears, I just don't get *as caring* a reaction from him when I assume that he doesn't care...and that is just something that I have picked up on. I still have a lot to learn, because I don't want to end up using this information to manipulate my T with my good feelings about him, into "caring about me." So, it becomes a huge excercise in authenticity, which is the basic thing my T has been trying to teach me all along.

ok, MH...off the soapbox I get...but I hope some of this helps...it's soooo hard, just a painful struggle to figure out how to be in relationship, and you really are doing that work, beautifully, I might add.

(((MH))))

BB

Hello MH I’m sorry you’ve dropped into what you call your old pattern - it must be so hard having had a great session and then find yourself filled with doubts all over again.

I want to say though that to me this sounds perfectly normal. Lol yeah ok maybe not for everyone in the world, but it certainly resonates with me.

Can I draw a parallel with my own experience that might give you a different perspective on what you’re going through?

I found with most recent T that I was spending huge amounts of time in between sessions getting really angry about his coldness and emotional unresponsiveness and what I experienced as his not understanding me at all. After a while I came to realize that my needing connection with him and my anger and frustration and doubts and fears were the issue, rather than what he was or wasn’t doing - and that constantly bringing up these feelings and demands (I experienced them as demands) with him was the therapy. So that when he continued to not fulfil my wants and expectations, that was ok because I was able to experience how it made me feel and TELL HIM ABOUT IT, and he accepted it without either ‘giving in’ to my demands or telling me that I had to stop demanding.

Up till then I thought the opposite, that the way I felt and what I expected of him were getting in the way of the therapy, but actually - because he constantly reassured me that that was the ‘work’ I needed to do - I felt incredibly freed to just go with all these awful feelings and experiences without having to change them or do something about them or fear that he was taking it all personally, and without his having to do anything about it either.

So ok it all fell apart with him because (I suspect) he couldn’t deal with my strong negative feelings towards him - but I learnt so much - most importantly that the very wants needs demands expectations, and the feelings - anger, frustration, pain, fear - that I assumed were ‘wrong’ and getting in the way of healing therapy - were in fact the therapy. Does that make any sense? I’m not sure I’m explaining it very well.

If you’ve followed my ramble so far, the point I’m trying to make (finally!) is that how you are feeling and the profound need you have to be sure of your Ts sincerity and for ongoing connection with her via the texts - is the stuff you need to be working on with her in sessions. That she doesn’t always respond to your texts, that she doesn’t seem to take seriously just how important it is to you - is what you need to be bringing up over and over and over again regardless of whether she changes her patterns of communicating with you or not.

If she’s a good T, then she won’t judge you or dismiss your wants and feelings, and won’t set new boundaries or get exasperated - she ought to be able to listen to you over and over again while you work through these needs and fears and doubts in safety and acceptance.

Well that’s the theory anyway.

Sorry this has turned out to be quite long - I hope it makes some sort of sense because the way you are describing what is happening for you reminds me so much of what I was going through with my T.

Oh and I wanted to add - you’re not pathetic! This is important stuff coming up for you and probably quite central to your therapeutic work - so not to be trivialized or dismissed

Good luck with the session tomorrow - let us know how it goes?

(((( MH )))))

LL

p.s. just read your reply on Beebs’ thread and you’ve said in three words what I’ve been struggling (probably unsuccessfully) to say in about three thousand - ‘rinse and repeat’. I think i'm trying to tell you what you already know - sorry!

Aw, MH, thanks for sharing this powerful thing with us...that is love, isn't it?

Blackbird...