Hi all, forgive me if this topic has been discussed elsewhere...I've been trying to read all of the threads but haven't gotten around to all of them...anyway, I suddenly have this worry that I will/am becoming too dependant on my therapist. This fear is preventing me from letting myself go and feeling more trust with her...which makes me sad because I feel like I love and respect her very much! Perhaps, Shrinklady, you could help with this issue too? How much dependancy is too much? Has anyone else struggled with this? What constitutes dependancy anyway? Is dependancy good or "bad"? I'm feeling very confused right now and I do plan on discussing this issue with my T but I was wondering what others thought?
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Hi mlc!
It's good to hear from you again! I've been wondering how you're doing.
Your question is a really good one. There is an article recommended by AG in another thread that addresses all the questions you asked. It is kind of technical, though, and I don't know if you like reading technical papers.
The whole article is about dependency in therapy. It describes what dependency is, the difference between secure and insecure dependency, active and passive dependency, how it relates to attachment, how it can be beneficial and even necessary to healing, and how it can become negative or "too much". It also emphasizes how important it is for the therapist to keep their balance in all of this so as not to cause more harm. And it also emphasizes that "too much" dependency needs to be defined specifically for each patient-therapist relationship.
You said that your fear is preventing you from trusting your T. One point this article makes is that too little healthy dependency can get in the way of progress just as much as too much, or unhealthy, dependency. So it is good that you're going to discuss this with your T.
Here is the link to the article:
Dependency in the Treatment of Complex Posttraumatic Stress Disorder & Dissociative Disorders
This article is also near and dear to my heart because it helps me understand what possibly happened in the relationship with my former T. I think he was trying to practice these principles, in that he didn't want my dependency to become an "obstacle".
It is reassuring to see that I had (and still have) all the "beneficial manifestations" of dependency (cooperation, active help-seeking, and positive attachment to the therapist) and none of the "negative manifestations" (a sense of entitlement, extreme demanding behavior, and high degree of neediness that cannot be processed or contained).
But the article also says "If the therapist responds erratically or with detachment or enmeshment, dependency will increase further rather than resolve, since unpredictable responsiveness prolongs dependency."
My former T was SO erratic and detached, and unpredictable. I believe it was because he was SO afraid that I would develop these negative manifestations of dependency. This made me fearful and prolonged my insecure dependency, which for me manifests itself in excessive independency. For some reason he couldn't see that I had all the positive (and none of the negative) manifestations. I don't know why. But it helps me to let go of what happened because I can see that he was just trying to do the right thing. And walking this fine line has got to be really, really tough for the therapist because each person is different. What works for one won't necessarily work for the next.
Here are some excerpts from the paper that describe the principles I just referred to, so you can see them in context (in case I'm misinterpreting them - I'm always afraid of that). I've bolded the sentences that seem to address your question so they stand out a little more, especially "beneficial manifestations" and "negative manifestations" of active dependency, and "positive aspects" and "negative aspects" of passive dependency.
A Working Definition of Dependency
"...Dependency is not confined to a particular developmental phase, but changes in nature and expression from cradle to grave. It varies in intensity and manifestations according to situational and interpersonal factors, and to alterations in the individual's capacity for higher levels of integrative activity that normally promote balanced levels of interdependency, intimacy, and autonomy. Insecure dependency tends to be expressed as excessive dependency or excessive independency. Dissociative patients will often exhibit a mix of the two types.
Dependency may be active or passive (Bornstein, 1995). Beneficial manifestations of active dependency in therapy include cooperation, active help-seeking, and positive attachment to the therapist; this may be true of both secure and insecure dependency. Negative manifestations include a sense of entitlement, extreme demanding behavior, and high degree of neediness that cannot be processed or contained. These behaviors are considered negative because they are not adaptive, generally creating a situation in which attachment figures withdraw. Such negative behaviors are indications of insecure attachment, and thus indicative of the need for secure attachment. Passive dependency includes helplessness, positive or negative submissive behaviors, passivity, indecision, and general suggestibility (although the type of suggestibility has not been specifically defined in the literature, and may be an important factor to consider in treatment of dependency). Positive aspects include compliance and positive suggestibility. Negative aspects of passive dependency include inability to act, indecision, and global suggestibility. We propose that both active and passive dependency are designed to attain secure attachment that promotes activation and balance of the daily life emotional systems of the individual, and are especially activated when an important relationship with a care taking figure seems threatened (Bornstein, 1995), or when separation anxiety otherwise occurs, inducing panic and a subsequent separation call (Panksepp, 1998)."
Caveats Regarding Dependency in Psychotherapy
"Although we attempt to normalize the concept of dependency in this paper, we are mindful of the extraordinary difficulties that may arise in managing the extreme and maladaptive dependency behaviors sometimes displayed by chronically traumatized patients. There are valid caveats reported in the literature regarding dependency: most of them are directed toward excessive dependency, but they may also apply to excessive independency. Management of dependency requires an exquisite and skilled balance of maintaining maladaptive dependent behaviors within a therapeutic window of tolerance for the therapist and patient. If this does not occur, there are a number of potentially disastrous outcomes. For example, Balint (1968), who supported regression in therapy for deeply troubled patients, wisely questioned "how much dependency constitutes a good starting point for successful therapy, and when does it turn into an obstacle?" (p. 40). Janet (1897/98) also indicated there must be a balance of dependency on the therapist, with the therapist initially taking a more active role in guidance, and gradually decreasing it as the patient is ready. In fact, this principle guides many forms of directive therapy.
Excessive dependency or counterdependency sometimes has the potential to heighten disruptions and maladaptive behaviors both in and out of therapy. They create a high possibility for suicide, especially if the therapist does not properly accept and deal with the patient's insecure dependency (Modestin, 1987; Gunderson, 1996). The patient may experience severe deterioration in functioning, self-destructive acts, and disintegration (Gunderson, 1996; Linehan, 1993; Modell, 1985; Van Sweden, 1995). Too much reliance (and "too much" should be defined therapeutically for each patient/therapist dyad) can lead to an increase in insecure dependency behaviors (Birthnell, 1997; Bornstein, 1994; 1995; 1998a, b; Klein, 1937/75), and temporary or no gains in treatment (Gunderson, 1996; Janet, 1897/98; Steele & Van der Hart, 1997; Van der Hart & Friedman, 1989). On the other hand, a patient who cannot depend on the therapist at all is not likely to progress either. The activation of dependency means increased demands on the therapist by the patient, sometimes for immediate gratification, leading to strong countertransference pressures (Van Sweden, 1995). If the therapist responds erratically or with detachment or enmeshment, dependency will increase further rather than resolve, since unpredictable responsiveness prolongs dependency (Main, 1990). Finally, the therapist must be aware that at times dependency and counterdependency can serve as a resistance to grieving and working through (Kernberg, 1975, 1984; Stark, 1995; Van Sweden, 1995)."
It's good to hear from you again! I've been wondering how you're doing.
Your question is a really good one. There is an article recommended by AG in another thread that addresses all the questions you asked. It is kind of technical, though, and I don't know if you like reading technical papers.
The whole article is about dependency in therapy. It describes what dependency is, the difference between secure and insecure dependency, active and passive dependency, how it relates to attachment, how it can be beneficial and even necessary to healing, and how it can become negative or "too much". It also emphasizes how important it is for the therapist to keep their balance in all of this so as not to cause more harm. And it also emphasizes that "too much" dependency needs to be defined specifically for each patient-therapist relationship.
You said that your fear is preventing you from trusting your T. One point this article makes is that too little healthy dependency can get in the way of progress just as much as too much, or unhealthy, dependency. So it is good that you're going to discuss this with your T.
Here is the link to the article:
Dependency in the Treatment of Complex Posttraumatic Stress Disorder & Dissociative Disorders
This article is also near and dear to my heart because it helps me understand what possibly happened in the relationship with my former T. I think he was trying to practice these principles, in that he didn't want my dependency to become an "obstacle".
It is reassuring to see that I had (and still have) all the "beneficial manifestations" of dependency (cooperation, active help-seeking, and positive attachment to the therapist) and none of the "negative manifestations" (a sense of entitlement, extreme demanding behavior, and high degree of neediness that cannot be processed or contained).
But the article also says "If the therapist responds erratically or with detachment or enmeshment, dependency will increase further rather than resolve, since unpredictable responsiveness prolongs dependency."
My former T was SO erratic and detached, and unpredictable. I believe it was because he was SO afraid that I would develop these negative manifestations of dependency. This made me fearful and prolonged my insecure dependency, which for me manifests itself in excessive independency. For some reason he couldn't see that I had all the positive (and none of the negative) manifestations. I don't know why. But it helps me to let go of what happened because I can see that he was just trying to do the right thing. And walking this fine line has got to be really, really tough for the therapist because each person is different. What works for one won't necessarily work for the next.
Here are some excerpts from the paper that describe the principles I just referred to, so you can see them in context (in case I'm misinterpreting them - I'm always afraid of that). I've bolded the sentences that seem to address your question so they stand out a little more, especially "beneficial manifestations" and "negative manifestations" of active dependency, and "positive aspects" and "negative aspects" of passive dependency.
A Working Definition of Dependency
"...Dependency is not confined to a particular developmental phase, but changes in nature and expression from cradle to grave. It varies in intensity and manifestations according to situational and interpersonal factors, and to alterations in the individual's capacity for higher levels of integrative activity that normally promote balanced levels of interdependency, intimacy, and autonomy. Insecure dependency tends to be expressed as excessive dependency or excessive independency. Dissociative patients will often exhibit a mix of the two types.
Dependency may be active or passive (Bornstein, 1995). Beneficial manifestations of active dependency in therapy include cooperation, active help-seeking, and positive attachment to the therapist; this may be true of both secure and insecure dependency. Negative manifestations include a sense of entitlement, extreme demanding behavior, and high degree of neediness that cannot be processed or contained. These behaviors are considered negative because they are not adaptive, generally creating a situation in which attachment figures withdraw. Such negative behaviors are indications of insecure attachment, and thus indicative of the need for secure attachment. Passive dependency includes helplessness, positive or negative submissive behaviors, passivity, indecision, and general suggestibility (although the type of suggestibility has not been specifically defined in the literature, and may be an important factor to consider in treatment of dependency). Positive aspects include compliance and positive suggestibility. Negative aspects of passive dependency include inability to act, indecision, and global suggestibility. We propose that both active and passive dependency are designed to attain secure attachment that promotes activation and balance of the daily life emotional systems of the individual, and are especially activated when an important relationship with a care taking figure seems threatened (Bornstein, 1995), or when separation anxiety otherwise occurs, inducing panic and a subsequent separation call (Panksepp, 1998)."
Caveats Regarding Dependency in Psychotherapy
"Although we attempt to normalize the concept of dependency in this paper, we are mindful of the extraordinary difficulties that may arise in managing the extreme and maladaptive dependency behaviors sometimes displayed by chronically traumatized patients. There are valid caveats reported in the literature regarding dependency: most of them are directed toward excessive dependency, but they may also apply to excessive independency. Management of dependency requires an exquisite and skilled balance of maintaining maladaptive dependent behaviors within a therapeutic window of tolerance for the therapist and patient. If this does not occur, there are a number of potentially disastrous outcomes. For example, Balint (1968), who supported regression in therapy for deeply troubled patients, wisely questioned "how much dependency constitutes a good starting point for successful therapy, and when does it turn into an obstacle?" (p. 40). Janet (1897/98) also indicated there must be a balance of dependency on the therapist, with the therapist initially taking a more active role in guidance, and gradually decreasing it as the patient is ready. In fact, this principle guides many forms of directive therapy.
Excessive dependency or counterdependency sometimes has the potential to heighten disruptions and maladaptive behaviors both in and out of therapy. They create a high possibility for suicide, especially if the therapist does not properly accept and deal with the patient's insecure dependency (Modestin, 1987; Gunderson, 1996). The patient may experience severe deterioration in functioning, self-destructive acts, and disintegration (Gunderson, 1996; Linehan, 1993; Modell, 1985; Van Sweden, 1995). Too much reliance (and "too much" should be defined therapeutically for each patient/therapist dyad) can lead to an increase in insecure dependency behaviors (Birthnell, 1997; Bornstein, 1994; 1995; 1998a, b; Klein, 1937/75), and temporary or no gains in treatment (Gunderson, 1996; Janet, 1897/98; Steele & Van der Hart, 1997; Van der Hart & Friedman, 1989). On the other hand, a patient who cannot depend on the therapist at all is not likely to progress either. The activation of dependency means increased demands on the therapist by the patient, sometimes for immediate gratification, leading to strong countertransference pressures (Van Sweden, 1995). If the therapist responds erratically or with detachment or enmeshment, dependency will increase further rather than resolve, since unpredictable responsiveness prolongs dependency (Main, 1990). Finally, the therapist must be aware that at times dependency and counterdependency can serve as a resistance to grieving and working through (Kernberg, 1975, 1984; Stark, 1995; Van Sweden, 1995)."
Hi MLC,
Good to hear from you! SG gave you a very thorough answer but I just wanted to add a few things. First off, I want to tell you that I seriously struggled with being dependent on my T and needing him so much at the beginning. It terrified me down to my toes. When I was struggling with all of those feelings, I found the book The General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis et al, I talk about this book so much that the authors should seriously pay me a commission. But the book discusses attachment and its centrality to human development. The truth is that in order for a human being to become independent (or interdependent as my T likes to say because we never stop needing other people its just that we also learn to be on the giving end) they must first be dependent on a wiser, stronger other, an attachment figure who teaches them to regulate their emotions, identify their needs and learn how to get them met. There's a passage from the book I posted in another thread which directly addresses the issue of dependency, I've provided a link below. I would highly recommend reading the book, it's very well written and very accessible.
therapy relationship question?
AG
Good to hear from you! SG gave you a very thorough answer but I just wanted to add a few things. First off, I want to tell you that I seriously struggled with being dependent on my T and needing him so much at the beginning. It terrified me down to my toes. When I was struggling with all of those feelings, I found the book The General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis et al, I talk about this book so much that the authors should seriously pay me a commission. But the book discusses attachment and its centrality to human development. The truth is that in order for a human being to become independent (or interdependent as my T likes to say because we never stop needing other people its just that we also learn to be on the giving end) they must first be dependent on a wiser, stronger other, an attachment figure who teaches them to regulate their emotions, identify their needs and learn how to get them met. There's a passage from the book I posted in another thread which directly addresses the issue of dependency, I've provided a link below. I would highly recommend reading the book, it's very well written and very accessible.
therapy relationship question?
AG
Thank You so much SG and AG!! You both have given me so much to think about and your answers have really helped me--also, thanks for saying 'good to hear from you'...made me feel warm....mlc
Hi summer, I'm curious--why is it that you say you were 'too needy'? What does being 'needy' mean or look like for you? mlc
quote:The truth is that in order for a human being to become independent (or interdependent as my T likes to say because we never stop needing other people its just that we also learn to be on the giving end) they must first be dependent on a wiser, stronger other, an attachment figure who teaches them to regulate their emotions, identify their needs and learn how to get them met.
My T said that I'm giving him (as well as other men unfortunately) a lot of power. I actually told him that I want him to have that power, for some time at least. I'm not sure if this is good, cause he didn't really said anything in reply, or I don't remember. I told him that I need him and I want to be dependent on him. So could it be that I am on the right track?
But if I am on the right track I'm afraid I will... heal/grow too quickly... and... I don't want that.
quote:also struggled a great deal with not wanting to be too dependent on my P while in therapy. I enjoyed seeing him and always enjoyed talking to him, BUT I didn't want to need him so much.
...and I am actually afraid of not needing my T any more, not loving him any more. I think that then I would stop enjoying seeing him, I would feel nothing, be empty inside. I think it has something to do with the fact that as I child I felt that I have to rely on myself only, I had the idea that I'm taking care of myself somehow. I had to separate emotionally myself from my father because loving him was too painful, he was unavailble to me, so loving him and wanting him must have been unbearable. So could it be that I'm afraid of being independent rather then dependent?
I think you're right. I want to be dependent so much and I'm afraid of it. I'm afraid he will fail, that there will be something that I will have to deal on my own with, and sort out on my own and try again step by step to get closer to him again. I don't know what could it be that he would fail with? Not handling my feelings properly, not understanding, being cold or defensive? It's like I would see something in him that would put me away, something I would not understand, something... something weak, lack of confidence, lack of strength. These thoughts are running through my head now and I feel that I'm struggling with this thing... The only thing that really comes to my head is that I saw that in my parents and that left me feeling so lonely. The thing I don't understand... my father drunk and I would not know what is it? what's wrong?
Summer, I'm so sorry you went through that with your P, it would just hurt SO much. I wonder, when you say you "don't feel the need or desire to be that dependent on anyone again" - does it feel like that is shut down inside you or like you were able somehow to complete that part of your need? I'm sorry if this is too 'pointy' as a question - I was just really struck by the power of that relief you write about.
I have just woken up into a difficult day - no energy in my body and I feel like crying. I don't know what this is, except that it's connected with my session yesterday and with this topic. Ordinarily I get a couple of days of feeling good after session, but this time I just feel like it's not enough, and I really really want to be back there, closer to her!
It's a hard feeling to manage on my own. I know others here have been there and come through that, and somehow it helps.
Take care all.
I have just woken up into a difficult day - no energy in my body and I feel like crying. I don't know what this is, except that it's connected with my session yesterday and with this topic. Ordinarily I get a couple of days of feeling good after session, but this time I just feel like it's not enough, and I really really want to be back there, closer to her!
It's a hard feeling to manage on my own. I know others here have been there and come through that, and somehow it helps.
Take care all.
To all the posters on November 26th: I have been really interested in this dependancy issue. I wrote last year about this time, saying that I had been in therapy for Post Traumatic Stress, and had a therapist for 10 years that retired last year. This left me with finding a new therspist...which I did a year ago. Now, she is leaving her practice for health reasons and I have only two more sessions. I still miss my old therapist and now I am faced with losing another important figure in my life. I don't really feel up to telling my story to yet another T. I just keep adding to this string of people I have depended on through the years--my pattern, always. I have broached the subject of my attachments to people in authority and not one of them has helped me with this--what to do. Thanks for listening. Luna
Hi Luna. I can relate to your situation. My P died - and I got no closure at all. The P that I saw immediately following that incident retired soon after. A very lost feeling. I moved and found a wonderful T, to whom I became very attached; that relationship was very intense and lasted 2 years, but I had to move yet again, and it didn't end all that well. I tried twice more to restart, but abandoned the idea.
Nearly a year ago, I had emergency open heart surgery, for a congenital defect, and nearly didn't see 2009; and I decided to seek counseling yet again. I had already been diagnosed with PTSD and now had another trauma under my belt. What had been holding me back was starting from scratch, telling my story, with new additions, all over again; it's such a pain. It was daunting. But my PCP had put me on anti-depressants and going back to work was incredibly difficult; I was overwhelmed.
I say all this to encourage you not to give up on therapy. I found a new T, with whom I have found a therapeutic relationship unlike any other I've experienced. He listens and interprets so differently that I don't feel like I'm starting over - it's a whole new approach and view; he is also a trauma victim which deepens the connection. I talk more and get more than ever before. I've told him things I've never told another living soul. And I'm starting to understand why. It hasn't been that long, but I have gotten farther. If you buy into the idea that everything happens for a reason - maybe there is someone even better out there for you. It's tempting to take a totally negative spin on this, but I challenge you to think differently about it.
I'm surprised at my attitude in responding to you, because I seldom think of myself as anything but chronically clinically depressed. But I am hopeful. And hopeful for you.
Nearly a year ago, I had emergency open heart surgery, for a congenital defect, and nearly didn't see 2009; and I decided to seek counseling yet again. I had already been diagnosed with PTSD and now had another trauma under my belt. What had been holding me back was starting from scratch, telling my story, with new additions, all over again; it's such a pain. It was daunting. But my PCP had put me on anti-depressants and going back to work was incredibly difficult; I was overwhelmed.
I say all this to encourage you not to give up on therapy. I found a new T, with whom I have found a therapeutic relationship unlike any other I've experienced. He listens and interprets so differently that I don't feel like I'm starting over - it's a whole new approach and view; he is also a trauma victim which deepens the connection. I talk more and get more than ever before. I've told him things I've never told another living soul. And I'm starting to understand why. It hasn't been that long, but I have gotten farther. If you buy into the idea that everything happens for a reason - maybe there is someone even better out there for you. It's tempting to take a totally negative spin on this, but I challenge you to think differently about it.
I'm surprised at my attitude in responding to you, because I seldom think of myself as anything but chronically clinically depressed. But I am hopeful. And hopeful for you.
Hi Lunabright - I am sorry you are looking at having to start over yet again. I can relate to the feeling of "adding to this string of people I have depended on" and wondering if it's worth it to try again. Please keep us posted as to how you are doing as you go through this transition. My heart goes out to you.
Freudian Slip - Welcome to the forum! Thank you so much for sharing what you've been through. Your response to Lunabright encouraged me too. I especially liked how you said that the connection with your current T is so different than the others that it doesn't feel like starting over. I'm so glad you found someone that you have such an awesome connection with and I'm glad you're here (p.s. I love the name).
Summer - Your post echos so many of my own thoughts and feelings. I also have the longing to be dependent for a while with an intense fear of rejection. I hope, if nothing else, that you are able to work out at least a satisfactory closure with the new T. It would also be pretty wonderful if you could find a new T with whom you have the kind of connection that Freudian Slip describes.
SG
Freudian Slip - Welcome to the forum! Thank you so much for sharing what you've been through. Your response to Lunabright encouraged me too. I especially liked how you said that the connection with your current T is so different than the others that it doesn't feel like starting over. I'm so glad you found someone that you have such an awesome connection with and I'm glad you're here (p.s. I love the name).
Summer - Your post echos so many of my own thoughts and feelings. I also have the longing to be dependent for a while with an intense fear of rejection. I hope, if nothing else, that you are able to work out at least a satisfactory closure with the new T. It would also be pretty wonderful if you could find a new T with whom you have the kind of connection that Freudian Slip describes.
SG
I am new to this board but this topic hit home for me and I wanted to share my story. I have been seeing my T for three and a half years now and I have struggled with dependency issues for quite some time, I'm not sure how long though. At one point, I flat out asked her not to give up on me, I was really going through a rough patch at the time. Lately though, I'm feeling this creep up on me again. I have some issues I need to address pertaining to my therapy and I am so scared to do this. I fear she might discharge me because of extreme instability, which I really hope wouldn't happen but I tend to over react and obsess. I feel like I need her so much and don't want her to be upset with what I need to address which is mainly about us not connecting lately and how I feel like she isn't understanding where I am in regards to my ability to move forward in therapy. I've been so anxious about this for a few weeks now and it just gets worse as time goes on.
I just want her to be ok with my concerns and want to work through them. I don't want her to be upset with me.
Dependent? Very much so...
I just want her to be ok with my concerns and want to work through them. I don't want her to be upset with me.
Dependent? Very much so...
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