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I had a fairly major crisis with my T the week before I went on vacation at the beginning of the month. In the session before I left I admitted to him how much I needed him and how scared I was that I was too much for him and he would quit. He told me he wouldn't.

Since I've been back we've been talking about how I feel about him and how I doubt that I can trust him and how he feels about me. That has been a painful and fruitful topic. Over my week away I became convinced that my T would decide I was too much for him when I returned. Even though I realized the feelings weren't based in anything he had said or done they were still overwhelming and I was so anxious I wasn't able to talk at all. At some point he asked me if I was afraid he was going to quit and I choked out a yes. He said that his financial planner had told him he had to work 12 more years before retirement and he wasn't planning on stopping working with me. I was so hurt that his initial comment had to do with his retirement that I could barely feel the reassurance. I told him how hurt I was later in the session, by email, and into the next session.

Next I asked him how he expressed his care for me because I often don't feel that he likes and cares for me and I struggle with believing it. He spent some time telling me that he expressed his care by his listening to his clients, the quality of his attention, his empathy. I got upset because I felt like he wasn't talking about me it was some generalized information about how he did therapy with all clients. Finally on the third session he told me he cared for and about me in words. He followed it up quickly by asking me if the words made me feel it. I said not at that moment and he said that was because the words were meaningless without the actions.

I told him I felt like the words were meaningless because I had worked so hard to get them to say them. He rarely expresses care or like or emotions verbally. He is always there ready to engage with me in whatever I bring to the conversation. He hasn't gotten angry at me or shown frustration. He has gone out of his way many times over the last 4 years to respond to my emails and calls and allowed contact during his vacations even having a phone session with me while he was away one particularly difficult summer. It occurred to me that he wasn't able to give me the verbal reassurance that I wanted because of some feature of his own personality or of his therapist persona. I actually felt relieved kind of comparing it to the idea that if I wanted to do EMDR I wouldn't spend session after session asking him to attend training to do EMDR instead I would find an EMDR therapist. Same as the fact that I would like a T that allows emergency phone calls on evenings or weekends but I value my T more so I haven't looked for one.

So last night my T starts to explain to me that he expresses his caring by listening and he understood that was difficult for me because when I shut down and don't talk it doesn't feel the same. He does care and he is listening but it is different. He also said that he felt like that way of caring was within the therapeutic relationship and talking about care and listening was less effective than listening and caring. He also said that he wouldn't feel comfortable expressing his caring in a different way that felt outside of the therapeutic relationship. It actually sounded a lot like my boundary idea but instead of relief at the time all I said was that I understood what he was saying but it didn't feel like enough.

I spent the second half of the session feeling sad about it. I told him I didn't think there was anything else to talk about. That it wasn't fair to keep trying to get him to express his caring differently. I thought but didn't say that it isn't fair to me to never get to feel that he cares or to feel safe in the relationship. I told him I recognized that I might hit the same wall with any therapist but I didn't know that. I didn't know if there was something missing in me so I couldn't feel safe or if I would experience things differently with another therapist. I feel like I've decided to end therapy and I'm sad but I'm not panic striken. I agreed that I wasn't going to end suddenly and I was willing to meet to continue talking about it but we weren't clear on how many meetings or what we would talk about.

I feel sad and numb. I'm not planning to start seeing consult T because even though she is very different and more verbal I think I doubt what she says for different reasons (she doesn't know me well enough to say she likes me or feels a connection). I don't want to get attached like this with another therapist and then hit the same wall in a year. So maybe I'm thinking of stopping because I'm afraid I'm too damaged and I'm never going to work through this.

I would appreciate any thoughts from people who've felt like this. Did you quit? Did your feelings change? Did you stay? Was it the right decision? It feels odd to me because at first I thought he didn't care and know I believe he cares he just doesn't express it in a way I can take in when I'm feeling vulnerable. I can believe he cares when I'm calm and rational like know but that doesn't last.
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quote:
Finally on the third session he told me he cared for and about me in words. He followed it up quickly by asking me if the words made me feel it. I said not at that moment and he said that was because the words were meaningless without the actions.

I told him I felt like the words were meaningless because I had worked so hard to get them to say them. He rarely expresses care or like or emotions verbally. He is always there ready to engage with me in whatever I bring to the conversation. He hasn't gotten angry at me or shown frustration. He has gone out of his way many times over the last 4 years to respond to my emails and calls and allowed contact during his vacations even having a phone session with me while he was away one particularly difficult summer.


Hi incognito....

There is so much I can speak to in your post. Unfortunately, I have to run to eat dinner now but I will be back. In the few minutes I have I just wanted to say that the first part of your quote...above....

Your T is exactly right. The words ARE meaningless without the actions. It by us experiencing the care that we come to feel it. Not by words. I do think that you have such huge and strong defenses that you are not allowing the care to get through where you CAN feel it. But that does not mean you are too damanged or worthless or hopeless... just that it will take more time and effort and a small step on your part to drop them slightly so you can FEEL what your T is doing for you.

In the next part of your quote you list all the things he does for you which ARE proof of his caring for and about you. Believe me... T's do NOT have to do all of that and most don't. Of course it's really nice to hear the words but at least for me, I am learning to appreciate and acknowledge the actions more than the words.

The comment about retirement was his feeble attempt at humor. It was not that he was only seeing you because of his financial situation. My T tells me I'm a pain in the ass at times but I know he does not mean it and I tease him about it. It does not hurt me because I can weigh it against what he does for me.

My oldT expressed in words how much he cared for me and he would say that he missed me and thought about me. And then... he abused and abandoned me and my son too. The words were empty and meaningless because his behavior did not support those words. He told me to trust him and he behaved erratically and inconsistently and made me feel that I was incapable of trust because I could not accept that he was "human".

Be back later

Hugs
TN
thanks TN,

I know his comment about retirement was a joke because rationally I'm only 2 hours in his week and he could easily fill those hours. I know he responds to most of my emails but occasionally he doesn't. For example, last weekend I had an incredibly painful experience where my eldest daughter (14 years) told me that I wasn't like the other mother's. I was too fat, I didn't dress well or look good. She also was upset that I couldn't control myself and I cried after she insulted me. My T isn't available outside of office hours generally but he has given me an email address that he uses with his cell phone for emergencies. I wrote him about what had happened, told him how upset I was, and asked him whether he thought I should talk to my younger daughter. He responded and I found the response helpful.

Later saturday afternoon I sent him another email because I was in so much pain (it was like waves and reminded me so much of how critical my mother is; I was horrified to think I had spent the first 20 years of my life being criticized by my mother and now I am going to be criticized by my daughter). He didn't respond to that email at all. On sunday I sent an angry email to his office saying that I understood his limits were reasonable but I was still hurt and angry because I couldn't talk to him. So monday morning he responds to my angry email telling me that he was sorry my weekend continued to be so difficult and he would see me later. Do you (or anyone in this situation) just accept that he has hurt you while knowing that he didn't not respond to hurt me but instead because he was taking care of himself. I hate shades of grey, I want one of us to be wrong, either him for not responding or me for sending him a second email followed by an angry email.

I think I've gotten off topic.
thanks for understanding BLT

I think he thinks he has a consistent email policy. He always answers emails when he is in his office during the morning or lunch hour so if I send something after lunch he often doesn't respond until the next morning. Usually I write at night after processing the session and he responds the next morning. Outside of the office he doesn't guarantee a response and I rarely use that email address. Usually I would use it to contact him while he was on vacation after asking him if it was okay. I have less frequently used it like this weekend because I've been overwhelmed and he usually responds like he did this time at first. He has told me that he won't guarantee a response because at times he likes to be unplugged so he might not carry his phone or read his email so he wanted me to be sure I understood there was no guarantee. But I still feel hurt even though I understand the rules rationally.
Hey COGS,

I hear you on the "it just doesn't feel safe enough" feeling. I think it's worth exploring because maybe there is something your T can do and IS comfortable with that will help make you feel safer. Maybe he is making a big assumption here that what you want and need is outside of the therapeutic boundaries. Maybe your T is seeing what you need as a boundary issue but
just maybe it's not.


Maybe (lots of maybes here) you need to be "held" on an emotional level? In the sense that he's not providing a safe enough environment for you and it feels as if there is no container? Does that make any sense? I told my T I needed him to hold me tight and to push me to grow at the same time. I needed to feel "held" emotionally, like he wasn't going to let me run away even if I tried.

Your T has said he might sit next to you, hasn't he? Maybe that's an option for when you feel bad and not connected?

As far as what happened over the weekend when you were in a lot of pain, I understand how painful it must have been that he didn't respond the second time and how selfish it must have felt to you. I don't know about you but I have a difficult time when it feels like my T is ignoring my pain. It triggers a lot of stuff for me.

All good stuff to talk about, COGS. I'm glad you are not going to quit right away but are going to give it some time.

xoxo

Liese
Sorry Cogs - kids can just do this to us. I have been reduced to tears many times - it hurts for so many reasons.

I really get your frustration and pain about him not responding to that 2nd email. He knew already that you were in a very difficult situation and you had already emailed and it was flagged as 'an emergency'.

But....wasn't he following the rules he set down?? He was being consistent wasn't he? Or did i misunderstand it? he answered the first one - he probably didn't think to do the 2nd one.

So I then read this as you feeling very distraught and reaching out to your T and needing him to help you regulate and him not being there for you when you needed him. if that is the case - that majorly triggers me and sets me off the deep end.

I have had a few experiences of this - especially over weekends. Usually my T has promised to contact and has forgotten, OR I have had a terrible experience and asked for her and she hasn't got the message. I then shut down and shut off. When eventually she contacts me - we have world war 3. Each time this has happened we then renegotiate the contact out of hours. T and I will talk thru the issues and will admit blame where it is and I can explain how it has made me feel. this is all really difficult.

Each time we have renegotiated - I always have "won". My T has given me more and more contact. it has evolved into a pattern of contact that really helps me.

I also have text contact and I could call her if i REALLY needed to, but I wouldn't. I would text probably and she would decide whether she would call me. Knowing that I can contact T by Text during out of hours - really helps me and I am very lucky - I rarely do it. I think this has alleviated a large amount of my issues and makes me feel safe.

Think about what you need from your T and why and tell him. It is difficult but it has helped me enormously. You just never know. I never dreamt that I could contact T at ALL when i first started with her.

Somedays
quote:
I think he thinks he has a consistent email policy. He always answers emails when he is in his office during the morning or lunch hour so if I send something after lunch he often doesn't respond until the next morning. Usually I write at night after processing the session and he responds the next morning. Outside of the office he doesn't guarantee a response and I rarely use that email address. Usually I would use it to contact him while he was on vacation after asking him if it was okay. I have less frequently used it like this weekend because I've been overwhelmed and he usually responds like he did this time at first. He has told me that he won't guarantee a response because at times he likes to be unplugged so he might not carry his phone or read his email so he wanted me to be sure I understood there was no guarantee. But I still feel hurt even though I understand the rules rationally.


incognito... your T does sound like he has a clear email/contact policy and you sound like you understand what it is. Yet, you end up feeling hurt when he does not respond at a time when he has never promised that you would get a response. You also mentioned that what he gives feels like it's not enough. I think this goes back to your childhood when it truly never WAS enough. When you were a child and ALL your needs should have been anticipated and met, leaving you secure and feeling cared for. Even though therapy is the closest thing to a re-do of the parental relationship it is not and never can be exactly what it should have been for us as children. There IS a trade-off with regard to contact and how much time we can be with our T/parent. I think what you need to work on with T is that when he does not respond on a weekend because he is unplugged for that time period, that it does not mean that he does not care for you or want to be there for you. He is just unplugged that is all. This has no bearing on how much or little he cares for you. Even the best parent cannot be there all the time for their child. You have multiple children I know and I'm sure you are not everywhere all the time for each one of them. Does this mean you love one child less or that you don't care for the child you cannot be with?

My T does have liberal contact policy. I am very fortunate in that. Yet I have only paged him once after-hours (regarding an oldT situation) and he did call me back. I have never paged him on a weekend. It would have to be deadly serious for me to do that. And yes, I have emailed him on vaction twice but that is because he insisted on it. My T only responds to email in the morning so I am not left waiting for a response. He has missed responding a few times but I think that this is easier to deal with now because I am and have been building up a supply of good responses to balance things out.

I'm really glad you are staying to continue to work things out. Each of these experiences and discussions should bring you closer and closer to him and hopefully you will begin to allow him past your defensive walls. Hang in there, incognito. Try listening to you rational self (that is your adult self) a bit more and to comfort the scared inner child who needs to contact T.

Hugs
TN
Liese,

I`m sorry that you know the "it just doesn't feel safe enough" feelings. I've tried exploring it. I do feel like T was ignoring my pain and that is an awful feeling. I also feel like it is my fault that he did so because I must not have been clear enough. I guess it is easier to blame myself than admit that he just didn't respond.

SD,

My T was being consistent in this case because he has always told me that he won't respond consistently when he was at work. I think it is very brave of you to tell your T what you need. I've been struggling to tell my T what I feel and been failing miserably. I just want to be able to say that I'm angry that he didn't respond and that I'm hurt and it makes me feel like I can't count on him. I can't say it in person. I've hinted at those feelings, admitted that they are irrational, written him emails and he hasn't responded to those comments. I don't know if he thinks that there is nothing to respond to or that I understand the rules so we don't have to discuss how I feel about them.

TN,
Thanks for the support. You are a very smart and brave woman and reading about how you have overcome some of your own struggles with trust has been so helpful and inspiring. I wish the experiences and discussions I have been having with T would help. Instead I think they reinforce my belief that there is something fundamentally wrong with me and if I share my feelings with T they will make him angry.

I had two sessions this week where we talked around this subject. Last night at about 10 minutes before the session ended I told him I felt too tired. I was tired of what the next 48 hours would be like. I told him that after struggling for the whole session I would finally say something I had been trying to say for a long time with 5 min to go. He wouldn't understand fully and he wouldn't be able to respond or clarify. I would leave wishing I could talk more about it and leave him angry voicemails or emails because I would think he was avoiding things. Then I would spend 2 days processing what made me angry and either decide I had worked through it and didn't have to tell T about it or decide that I should say it right at the beginning of the session so we had time to deal with it. Then I would hopeful about the next session until I sat down and was unable to talk. I would spend 45 min. struggling with how irrational my feelings are and arguing with myself about whether I should speak and what I should say until the session was almost over and start the cycle all over. We talked a little bit about that and the session ended with T telling me that I wasn't helping myself because I was so sure that he would respond negatively, not understand, get angry etc. so I never spoke and never got to experience his actual response and see what it was. He said that meant I just got left alone with my pain. I agreed and then I left because the session was over.

I came home and felt so stupid and hopeless. I understand what I should do from reading this board and others like it but I cannot do it. I'm constantly aware of failing.
((((((COGS)))))

quote:
I'm constantly aware of failing.


Yeah, I know. Me too. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if at least some of my trust issues come from me trying to switch things up or keep things interesting because if T knew the real me, he wouldn't want to help me or he'd lose hope. If I really showed him how hopeless I get and how often those feelings arise, he'd agree with me because I often feel beyond repair.

Sorry. I'm probably not helping to boost you up right now. Feeling a little low myself.



Liese
Hi Incognito,
I hope you don't mind me commenting but I felt really sad when you wrote that you were constantly failing. From what I've read, I would describe what you're doing as constantly striving. Striving to connect, to support yourself, to change your ways of being and thinking and feeling. I don't think that can be described as failing.

I understand why you feel as you do, though, and have had countless similar sessions where I have waited and waited to get through the door and be a certain way or take a risk, only to be unable to speak for the entire session and then have to leave feeling devastated.
Somehow, it's got better. Fleetingly, I have moments of clarity where all that I know about myself, the process of therapy, psychology all come together and I can see that no amount of trying really hard on my part, knowing what I have to do, none of that will make me do it. It's feeling safe enough to take a risk that's allowed me to move forward a tiny bit (and then feeling scared that I've ruined everything that's meant I've retreated again!).
It's ok that it's hard and not your fault. It just is hard. And you have a tremendous amount of courage to keep going with it.
Sometimes, after I'd had a really frustrating session which left me feeling hopeless, my only goal for the next session was for it to be different. And I know myself better now, so anticipatin that I was going to be putting a huge amount of pressure on myself to make the session different and that as a result I probably wouldn't be able to speak, I'd write down the one thing that I needed before I left. Last time, it was that my T knew and understood how painful it was for me when she wasn't available. I also sent her a text to ask her to ask me for what I'd written at the start of the session, so it was out there. Just knowing she knew what I really needed her to know and sitting with her was different. For the moment, it feels a little less scary.
I hope you get to an easier place soon. It's exhausting when it's hard, so let yourself rest and acknowledge the huge effort you are making.


Iris xx
quote:
Striving to connect, to support yourself, to change your ways of being and thinking and feeling. I don't think that can be described as failing.


Iris makes some really good points.

I also have felt that frustration in not being able to say what I wanted to say in session and leaving upset that another session felt "wasted". But it is never wasted because each session builds on the relationship and the trust until it gets easier to tell T what you need to. Like Iris, I also would make a decision to make the next session different... better... Eventually, it happens. Maybe you need to go back to the puzzle work. Sometimes, I need to go back to sitting on the floor. Whatever works. I truly think it's all a matter of trust and time. But at some point you need to look at your T, evaluate rationally if he is worthy of your trust and then made the decision to begin to trust him. I am NOT saying everyone should just take a leap to trust somebody in their lives. The person has to prove themselves and earn the trust. Only you can decide if your T has earned your trust.

I think I have made some good progress lately because I have come to a point where (for the most part) my T has not failed me, not been inconsistent, not hurt me, and has been responsive to my needs while behaving ethically. All of this has contributed to my taking bigger steps to trust him. And in trusting him I am able to tell him things and talk about some sensitive issues.

incognito... you can do it too but you are on your own time schedule. You have made progress so don't give up now.

Hugs
TN
((Liese))

I`m sorry you are feeling now too. I tell my T how hopeless and broken I feel often but when he disagrees I don`t believe him. I am feeling a little better today and I`m grateful for that little upswing.

Iris, I appreciate the comment. It means a lot that you would take the time to write and tell me why you don`t think I`m failing. I actually felt a shift where I could see myself and my struggles a little differently when you described them. Hearing someone calling what I do striving even when I can`t wholeheartedly agree made a difference and allowed me to listen for some other voice than the super critical one that was screaming at me. Thank you for that.

(((TN))) thanks for the hugs and encouragement. I hope you will understand if I say I hate the idea of my own schedule. I want to be able to change because I know I should. I should trust my T, I want to trust my T, my rational mind trusts my T. I guess the good thing is that I have another opportunity soon.
((((COGS)))))

Just checking in and hoping you are still on that upswing. I love what Iris said about seeing you striving because she is so right. You are in more pain on a constant basis than probably anyone I know and the easy thing to do would be to quit, to give up. But you don't. You keep trying, hoping something will give, something will break. And it will. All that hard work and determination will pay off. You know, those neurons form a little more slowly (okay, maybe a lot) at our age.

I have been thinking lately about just loving myself the way I am. What if I'm always going to be sad? What if that's just going to be the way I am? I have to learn to love me this way. And part of it, part of wanting to succeed in therapy is wanting T to like me too, for T to approve of me. I get scared that if he doesn't see me making progress, he'll just kick my butt right out the door. But I'm paying for my therapy. And if I hide how often and how much I'm in pain, he won't be able to help me.

So maybe it's just all okay, how fast you are moving or how fast you are not moving. He's there for you, week after week. So what if you aren't able to say what you want in one particular session. Why the pressure? You can always do it in the next. I'm not trying to minimize your pain around the issue. But it sounds like you put so much pressure on yourself and then beat yourself up mercilessly when you don't do what you wanted to do. Beating yourself up isn't going to get you anywhere. It's just going to perpetuate the pressure/guilt cycle.

Just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you. I bought a new laptop today. So I might be around a bit more. That's if there is anyone to talk to. Eeker It's been so quiet. I hope that means everyone is feeling good.



Liese

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