Hi TN,

I'm glad you had such a meaningful discussion about attachment with your T. I'm finally beginning to understand the value of openly admitting attachment and having a T/P accept it, actually embrace it as your T did.

When I first went to my P to overcome the pain of an unresolved attachment, or rather abandonment, by my exP, I fought any sort of attachment with new P. It felt scary because I believed it would make me dependent upon him which would make me very vulnerable and feel out of control in the relationship.

We've never actually used the word attachment in my therapy with him and he's never told me that I need to feel attached to him in order to learn to trust again. Instead he's let me work it out through fighting the attachment initially, pushing him away while he patiently awaited for me to come back and choose to open up again.

I recently talked about my need to see him and my feelings of anxiety if scheduling preventing me from seeing him as often. He was just so accepting of these feelings that I felt a release of the anxiety and now feel as if I can deal with longer breaks between sessions.

Now I finally realize that my admission of my need for him, which I really see as attachment, and his acceptance and acknowledgment of his desire to continue working with me, which I think I could probably view as attachment on his part, has actually left me feeling very secure in the relationship.

I feel that I carry him with me now which has given me a great sense of peace.

I'm not really sure if this is how attachment works, but whatever has changed with my P, I'll take it and see it as a very positive step forward!

Summer

TN, this is something I am just now acknowledging to myself. As I have noted on other posts, I have seen the same T, off and on, for a long long time. I am terribly attached to her, but have never had the guts to ever bring it up. She doesn't bring it up either, but she has to know, doesn't she?

I am extremely embarrassed by this. Not at all comfortable. Letting people I know, know how I feel about them, has never come easy for me. Hell, I just avoid it. Why don't you think she brings it up? Maybe she knows I couldn't handle it. I know when she trys to move in closer to me, I scatter super fast. I think I know her pretty well and I can't believe she is uncomfortable with it.

It sounds like you have a pretty awesome T. You are very lucky. Any words of wisdom back at me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the thought provoking post.

TN: It sounds like you are making great progress with your T. He continues to be very steady and accepting and I love that. I'm so happy for you.

I was very attached to my old T and she accepted it for the most part, though once it went bad it went really bad (as you know). Unfortunately I think she over-encouraged the attachment and then had an "oh shit" moment and was trying desperately to back out of it. I know that I was because I knew and felt that it was unhealthy. (this is unique to my situation and not attachment to T's in general).

I'm not attached to my new T. I like her. We work really well together and I trust her as much as I'm going to trust anyone, but I wouldn't say I'm attached. I rarely think about her between sessions other than a passing thought. Typically I don't even know when my next session is unless I look in my schedule. Oddly, I'm doing way better with her than I ever did with my old T.

At the same time that I'm not attached to my new T, I'm much more attached to myself if that makes sense.

TN i am terrified of any attachment i may have with my T. i am so scared that the feelings and safety i would get from that wouldnt be real at all.not much else i could say about it

I love that your T explains that his attachment to you keeps you safe. It's very true, isn't it? It sounds a lot like what's going on with my T and me right now! We recently broached the subject of attachment (to her) for the first time in the nearly 2 1/2 years I've been seeing her. We didn't even discuss it very in depth, but it was still probably one of the better sessions we've had.

That being said, I am deathly afraid of being attached to her. It took me a LONG time to attach to her to any extent. For a while I felt like I "needed" her, but it was different than real attachment. The discussion about attachment started when I finally admitted that I'm connected to her. Of course, I meant attachment, but I wasn't about to use that word! She immediately knew where the conversation was going though and seemed so glad that we were finally having "that" discussion. This was right before a 3 week break, too, and she told me that if for some reason her plane falls out of the sky or something and she doesn't come back, she wanted me to continue this work with another therapist.

It was really great to see how accepting she was of my attachment to her but also see how she understands that it's very hard for me to not only be attached to her but admit to it as well. That being said, in the 2 sessions since this conversation, I've tried to keep her at arm's length and I've avoided talking about attachment. I think we talked some about it last week, but I was sick and so loaded up on medication that I honestly barely remember the session (I insisted to her at the time that I was fine, but now I'm going to apologize at our next session, because I don't even know how I formed any thoughts). But I think it was the medication that lowered my inhibitions and allowed me to talk more about attachment.

Anyway, I'm really rambling here, but the bottom line is that, yes, my T is very accepting of attachment, and yes, it does feel dangerous to attach and even more so to admit to it. I explained to T last week that it felt shameful to be attached to her. It makes me human, with feelings and all, and it also makes me vulnerable, and it makes all of these things visible - and that's what makes me ashamed. I hope that I can someday get past those feelings of shame and allow myself to experience the attachment and be comforted by that connection to my safe T.

Thanks for sharing your experience with your T and attachment.

I feel like my attachment to T is very multifaceted. There are positive and negative elements, and while I feel the connection is strong, it is laced with insecurity. I regress a lot in therapy and that is when the attachment feels best, very cozy and trusting (on my end). My adult self is more inclined to be mocking and belittling of my dependency on T. In fact she (adult self) would deny it altogether if she could.

My T is comfortable with my attachment, and knew of it long before I did, and just smiled when I finally acknowledged it and asked if it was okay. He's psychodynamic, though, so that's part of his approach. (he's not so comfortable with ET, though- ha! Poor guy...!)

I don't trust attachments in general, whether with friends or relatives, etc.; and hate feeling vulnerable - all of which he understands, so although this has been a difficult area at times, I'm learning!

Starry

I guess I feel safest saying (both here and to my T) that parts of me are attached to my T. Our focus in recent weeks, as it was a block, has been for me to work out connecting to those feelings and my own attachment. I have a sort of panic about having any relational needs and try to protect others from them. So, I guess I am practicing that stuff with him right now, where it is safe, because even though I'm frequently scared, I have had enough experiences over our (almost anniversary!) nearly two years together to objectively know he is trustworthy.

I finally wrote about, and we discussed last night, the confusion I'm experiencing by finally allowing (pushing?) myself to acknowledge and experience the attachment, the terror of being confused by the boundaries in the therapeutic relationship. Not intellectually confused, but on a feeling level, how difficult it is to get that my second most intimate relationship (in terms of allowing myself to be seen, cared about, etc.) exists in a sort of fishbowl. I get that the fishbowl has fostered the safety that helped build the intimacy. It's just a few ill-timed boundary jokes by T (like it would be fun to play music at a church together and then joking about losing his license, ugh) really threw in my face the reality of what I'm doing. There is this huge propaganda inside that became an inside rule so early, I don't quite know its origins, but basically, it's like "Never again!" when it comes to attachment. I'm defying that rule right now and that is kind of terrifying...but at the same time, I KNOW it is safe. Sometimes, it feels so unsafe I have to fight for an hour to be able to even talk to him about anything to do with MY attachment needs/feelings, sense of connection, fear of invading his boundaries or losing the relationship because of them. Dissociated attachment stuff from inside kids is easy to talk about, because it's "not me."

Anyway, I'm rambling a lot here. What strikes me more than anything is how T expresses his sense of the connection, his genuine, positive feelings about it. He has even admitted that it can be "scary" for him to, as it is with anyone to get close in that way, that he has the same ambivalence that I avoid feeling by dissociating attachment and avoidance into different parts. I often forget that me being attached to him, working so deeply together over two years, means there are very real feelings on his side to, as TN's T has described, an attachment as well. I forget that means he is taking the same risk I am, though having done his own work, his trust isn't in quite the state of disrepair that mine is. I forget that by connecting with me so deeply, he has made himself vulnerable. That I could hurt him...especially the sensitive issues type stuff I struggle with or even just my giving up on the process while I'm still in so much pain. Or just the professional vulnerabilities he has from how we work. So often, I think of it as such a one way street, but it really goes both ways. The only difference is he works through his ambivalence, his fears of vulnerability, kind of out of my sight, because it's my therapy. Even though he is super-disclosure guy, we very rarely talk about his own feelings. I find it surprising, however, the few times he has done so to help me normalize the ambivalence/conflict I feel (i.e. it won't ACTUALLY kill me), how soothing it is to know that the experience can go both ways.

quote:

I feel that I carry him with me now which has given me a great sense of peace.

It's great reading all of your experiences with attachment or struggling with attachment. Summer what you wrote above in the quote I think it the goal and most important part of attachment. To be able to fully internalize your T, to maintain that special connection is what brings us that feeling of peace. It is what many of us have been looking for all of our lives.

I'd like to say that not everyone requires this attachment in therapy to do what they need to. But I do believe it's necessary for those of us with trauma and abuse backgrounds because in almost all of these situations, there was never a secure attachment with our parents/caregivers when we were children/babies. This is the key that has been missing from our lives and what causes so much difficulty in relationships and in regulating our emotions.

Summer it does sound like your P is exhibiting an attachment to you. I am so glad you are feeling so secure in the attachment on both sides of the dyad.

Becca my only words of wisdom would be to go and talk to your T about it. You can keep the topic more neutral by just asking her "so what do you know about attachment?" This way you can find out some of what she knows and understands. She may not necessarily "know" about your attachment if she is not trained that way. Is she a CBT T or does she work in psychodynamic therapy? I find those T's are the most knowledgeable about attachment. I think you need to explore WHY needing someone or being attached to someone feels shameful or scary to you. Part of the work we do in therapy is to learn how to have close intimate relationships with others and if we keep people away from us because of fear of attaching then we lose out on so much. I struggle with this too and it's a large part of the work I do with my T. What I am discovering is that pushing him away and denying my attachment (and warm, affectionate feelings) for him is not keeping me safe and instead it deprives me of what I need and what feels good.

I am not saying to attach to anyone... we need to learn how to spot people who are not capable of sustaining their own consistent attachment to us. I.e, that they have enough of their own secure attachment status to be able to feel comfortable with us being attached to them (if that makes sense?)

STRM... great to see you here and to know that your therapy is going well with your new T. You may have reached a point after your last therapy that you don't have a need for that therapeutic attachment... you have have your own EARNED secure attachment within yourself right now. I think part of that is not having those anxious feelings about T or needing to see her often and having constant thoughts about her. I think your oldT was not able to maintain a consistent attachment with you and did some push-pull stuff that my oldT did with me.

I do find that my attachment with this T is not of the anxious type. I am not really anxious that he will disappear, or suddenly change, or push ME away. I am much better about his vacations... yeah I miss him but it's not the fearful missing I had with oldT. I am better able to maintain the connection to him (even though I have tried to deny this at times).

granite... I'm sorry this all scares you so much. When I have questioned this with my T he asks me if I think he is "faking" his feelings for me. I know he is not. When you work with someone so intimately for so long the feelings become real feelings on the T's part too. They are human. Maybe if you could talk about attachment with your T then later you would feel safe enough to talk about all the other stuff you have been finding difficulty in telling her.

Kashley... hic... and Starry.... I loved your comments but I will have to come back later to finish this.

I hope to see more people chiming in here with their own attachment thoughts, feelings and struggles.

Hugs to all
TN

hi,

i'm not very evolved when it comes to attachment, at least in terms of acknowledging it! i am actually very attached to my T, which is very distressing for me and very hard to admit. i am getting better i guess, i am starting to admit it to myself, but i havent been able to talk about it with my T.

in terms of HER attachment to me ?!... that seems like a foreign concept to me! i generally think she wouldnt really care if i stopped coming or that she would be relieved. at best, i guess i feel some sort of acceptance and concern from her (which i write off as 'professional duty').

good stuff to think about, thanks!

puppet

I'm with you puppet.

I am attached to my T and very needy. I've progressed from insisting I wasn't attached, to admitting it to myself, to admitting it to others, and finally admitting it to T. Usually be saying something like if you knew how much I need you it would be a problem. He is very accepting about attachment and depencdence.

I don't think he is attached to me. He certainly hasn't said anything about being attached or connected to me. TN, I think it is amazing how your T talks about being attached to you. It is very heartwarming. I have read a few different blogs written by therapists who talk about caring for and being attached to their clients. Here are two of my favourite posts if you haven't read them.
What a Shrink Thinks - Unspoken (http://whatashrinkthinks.com/2012/05/01/unspoken/) and After Psychotherapy - Attachment Theory and the Healing Psychotherapy (www.afterpsychotherapy.com/attachment-theory-psychotherapy-relationship)
Sometimes reading about other therapists gives me hope that my T does care about me. Other times I just feel sad for what is missing in our relationship.

Aaaah .....attachment. I think before even explaining my attachment to my T's or in terms of the lastest T, lack thereof, it probably makes sense to explain what I see attachment as.

I think for my entire life I have always attached to people. I have connected with them that they would be able to attach to me and be completely open with me (and they have been), but the part of attachment that concerns me exposing my vulnerability to someone else, well that part of attachment I have always failed in. You see I think that there are different levels of attachment and they are not only based on the brains ability to connect with another person (I always had that), but they are based on trust. So for me, Ex T was the first person I ever confided completely in, and I trusted her with my life, and over the months (18mths) I tried to explain that attachment to her by telling her things like...."you mean the world to me"...."I need you"...."I thank God for you every day"....I even told her that I loved her, but her entire focus was on boundaries and to be honest, still today I don't understand how a person can attach if boundaries are the priority. All I ever wanted was for her to let me love her (I don't mean in a sexual way in case you were wondering but rather in a caring way). I wanted to be allowed to say I cared for her. I wanted to be able to give her flowers to say thank you, not for anything in return, but just for her to know that I appreciated her. I wanted to be able to be nice to her as a repayment for her listening to me. I knew she would never love me the same as I loved her, but I just wanted to be able to love her - to show my gratitude. At the same time as all of that was going on, I felt unworthy of her love - I wanted her to care about me, but I felt unworthy, like I had to do something for her in order to get it. She was everything in my world, but I felt like a drain in hers. Anyway it didn't end well. She terminated my therapy with no explanation and my heart was broken (still is)

Enter new T: As I said above I have always had the ability to connect on different levels with people but the trust part in me being able to expose my vulnerabilities - well that part is now destroyed! Why on earth would I ever want to experience that sort of pain again? So now there is absolutely no attachment and it is all "clinical like" and my appointments go along the lines of... "I don't want to ever connect with you, because while you say I can trust you today the truth is things change" "I cannot deal with that pain again" "I need to learn from my mistakes" "I just need you to make these feelings go away so that I can cope with life" "I can't talk about that" - NO connection. NO attachment. NO trust. NO touching apart from our very first meeting when I shook her hand once. Honsetly I don't know where to from here and all I want to do is give up. My appointments are not subsidised or free - I pay for each of them and I pay full price and I just think I am wasting my time and money right now.


If all of those thoughts sound "wishy washy" that is because my brain is "wishy washy" right now and I probably have no right to even comment on this link.

B2W

I don't really know what my attachment is like... or if I have it??? Who knows.

I have two Ts and... both really help me regulate, and both are safe in general but I feel like I play out my attachment dynamics with T1 and I think T2 doesn't work with that as much but I'm not objective enough to know for sure.

T1 stresses our connections from both ends - not just me to her or anything but words like "us" or "our" are used. When there is a problem with "us" it's different than other sorts of problems. She's very okay with checking in, and knowing the connection helps and she'll remind me ways it's still there, etc or that basically our work is mostly just connecting and that will sort of reorganize things in the background. She's not psychodynamic but I'm sure she uses some of that in her approach. She's very open and honest which makes it easier for me (they both are).

It's complicated with two therapists sometimes because I get something different from each of them and I am attached in a general way to both of them. I trust them both the same, depending on the subject matter I will bring up stuff with one first over the other one depending on what I think I'll need in the moment. T2 and I don't really rupture/repair - not as dramatically as I do with T1 I put us through WW3 to forge a relationship there.

I dunno it's hard to talk about them as separate because it's sort of one unified T force that I'm attached to. It would be weird without either one of them. So I'm very attached to the dynamic, like if something is wrong with one then something is wrong with both. I will use them to help me solve issues with the other half and that in itself is corrective/healing.

Anyway, I'd say finally I'm a little bit better attached in that I can use them effectively and they make me feel better. I'd say I started therapy disorganized but heavy on the dismissive... now I'm sort of disorganized like I go forward and then retreat...then when things are bad I get scared they will go away because as I've learned to move forward it also freaks me out when what I'm moving forward to does any thing different. My attachment style is cat? Like I am curious, I'll go towards stuff but I'm totally willing to run and hide under the bed, but then I get nervous under the bed so I come back out and look, etc. So if there is a cat type, that's my type.

Hi Anon I think we cross-posted. I am glad to know you are taking small steps towards a full attachment to your T. You make a point that because they are also allowing themselves to attach to us they are a bit vulnerable and can be hurt as well. My T says that yes, I can hurt him because he cares about me... yet not to worry about that with him because he understands where I'm coming from in that regard. He says he knows me well enough to know I'm not a vicious or mean person and most times it's the transference not him. I am sad when I hurt him even through the transference because I do care about him and don't want to be mean to him... he does not deserve it.

puppet...we all pride ourselves on being so hypervigilent and noticing the smallest thing about our Ts so don't you think you would pick up on your T if she was being insincere in her care for you? Why would her actions towards you be only a professional duty? Is she incapable of having real, true feelings about someone she works so closely and intimately with? I'm sure she would care very much if you stopped going to see her. Maybe if you could try to discuss it with her the attachment would become less distressing to you.

incognito...ditto what I said to puppet. I AM glad that you have talked about this with T and can admit and recognize the attachment. I hope things get better with you. I know sometimes we get into the cycle of therapy is not enough... it's never enough. And you are right because even therapy cannot go back to when we were children to fix the hurts. But it's the best thing we have to work through that stuff and grieve what we missed out on.

I have read (and re-read) those blog posts you reference and they have been very helpful to me in realizing what is happening on the other side of the couch. It really confirms what my T tells me. I am working towward sharing those blogs with T now.

B2W... of course you have every right to comment on this thread and what you say is not wishy washy. I will comment more later... out of time now...

Cat... thanks. I'll be back to comment when I get some time.

Thanks all
TN

HI TN,

You ask so many good questions.

quote:

Do you feel that you have attached to your T? Do you feel like it's dangerous to attach? Do you feel like your T understands and is comfortable with attachment? What does it feel like when you acknowledge that there is an attachment?

I am definitely attached to my T. But you know he had problems accepting my attachment and so, yes, it did feel dangerous to attach to him.

He accepts it now and it doesn't feel dangerous anymore. He's not as verbal as your T about his attachment to me. I've had to quote your T in session just to get him to open up a little more to me about what he feels on his side of the couch.

Even if he told me he loved me, however, it probably wouldn't be enough to make me "feel" loved and feel safe. What makes me feel cared for is the things he does for me. He's made himself available to me 24/7. I think he's available to everyone 24/7 but he doesn't advertise it. He's read every article I've brought to him and 2 books. He graciously accepts my Friday (his day off after a long week) phone calls, for as long as I needed them. I haven't needed to call him on a Friday for several months now. When I've left distressing messages and then we get into phone tags, he has called me multiple times in order to make sure we talk.

In the spring, I had a difficult session and he called that night to let me know he knew it was hard and he was thinking of me. Recently I had to cancel an appointment and that was hard for me. I left a transitional object for him with his secretary. He called me right before my session would have taken place to let me know that he got the transitional object, that he liked it but that for him, it wasn't necessary because we are always connected.

So it's all the things he does for me that let me know he cares and is attached. He's been willing to change and become a better therapist. He's been willing to change to meet my needs.

What does it feel like to be attached? It is amazing. For the first time in my life, I feel calm inside. I don't feel tortured. I didn't know how often (all the time) my nervous system was on high alert (code blue) until I had something to compare it to. I feel like I am building some emotional strength. I finally have a deeper understanding of why I always felt the way I did. It all makes sense now.

I am taking little steps away from him because I know he's there for me. It feels like he's there for me emotionally the way a parent should be there for their child. I'm not going to call him if I get a flat tire but if I'm in distress, I know I can call him.

I think I finally feel connected to him in a positive way all the time. And he's on my mind in some way practically all the time but it's different now. I know he's a part of my life and so I don't have to *think* about him constantly in order to hold onto him. Sometimes it's more of a feeling, that warm positive feeling that I get from my relationship with him.

It was all a process and it takes time to get there. Your T has proven himself time and again and I know you will get there. Acknowledging your attachment to him was such a huge step towards just feeling safely attached all the time.

It's always great to read about your sessions and your T. I hope you will keep us updated.

Liese... that was a great post that not only explains how your T has been showing you HIS attachment behaviors but also to see how well you both have worked together and how you have progressed in your therapy! This is just awesome!

Isn't it true how this works...that when they are willing to give you what you need as far as contact and connection then you don't need it as much any more? But when they deny you outside contact and have really strict rules about that it causes your connection anxiety to rise and get out of control and you need the connection even more. This is what my T has always talked about and what he teaches his interns... allow the dependency and attachment and it will naturally develop that the patient outgrows the need for it.

I like the way you describe this part (and I still don't know how to do the quote thingy in the middle of a post!)...

Quote by Liese: "What does it feel like to be attached? It is amazing. For the first time in my life, I feel calm inside. I don't feel tortured. I didn't know how often (all the time) my nervous system was on high alert (code blue) until I had something to compare it to. I feel like I am building some emotional strength. I finally have a deeper understanding of why I always felt the way I did. It all makes sense now.

My nervous system was always on high alert with oldT because while I was attached, he was unable to allow the attachment and kept pushing me away causing horrible anxiety and it just made me feel more clingy which then made him push away even more. My thoughts of him then became more intense and overwhelming and separation was agony.

It's not like that any longer. I do miss my T when he goes on vacation but it's not that desperate, terrified feeling. Nor do I feel that I disappear from HIS mind when we are apart. He often tells me he thinks of me when he looks at my gifts that I gave him (which sit on his bookshelf). There is object permanancy on both sides LOL.

Thanks for your post, Liese. It's a perfect example of all the good that comes when the attachment is accepted and really working on both sides of the room.

Hugs
TN

((((((TN))))))

So glad you liked my post. I was a little afraid to put it up there. I know that everyone is at different stages with their T's and I didn't want to trigger anyone. As you know, I'm with my current T for almost 5 years now and he and I have both worked very hard to get where we are now.

quote:

it just made me feel more clingy which then made him push away even more. My thoughts of him then became more intense and overwhelming and separation was agony.

That broke my heart to read but I understand it because that's how I felt before my T accepted my attachment. It's an awful place to be.

quote:

It's not like that any longer. I do miss my T when he goes on vacation but it's not that desperate, terrified feeling.

So glad you don't feel like that any longer.

quote:

This is what my T has always talked about and what he teaches his interns... allow the dependency and attachment and it will naturally develop that the patient outgrows the need for it.

I came across something recently called the Dependency Paradox, an idea studied by Brooke Feeney.

quote:

Carnegie Mellon Psychologist's "Dependency Paradox"
Captures Academic Prize From Britain's Mind Gym
PITTSBURGH—A study published by Brooke Feeney, an associate professor of psychology at Carnegie Mellon University, has earned her first prize at the inaugural Mind Gym Academic Awards in London. Mind Gym is a British organization devoted to helping people succeed by teaching them to be better thinkers, based on rigorous psychological research.

Feeney is a social psychologist whose research focuses on relationships among couples. She received the Mind Gym Award based on a paper that appeared in February in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. This paper consisted of two studies, one of 115 couples and another with 165 couples, which revealed that people can cultivate a greater sense of independence in their relationship partners by providing support to the partner — and accepting their dependence — when needed. Over time, the partner grows more independent and willing to take healthy risks, knowing they have someone to rely on for support and encouragement. Feeney dubbed this discovery the "dependency paradox," and she believes it could have important applications for couples' counseling.

Hey Liese... thanks for getting back to me. I will read more about the dependency paradox. It is exactly what we have been discussing in therapy. I'd like to share it with T. I'm so glad things are better with you and your T.

I think the whole attachment area is a fascinating topic. What makes me sad is so many T's and patients who are scared or unable to look at the attachment to see how helpful it can be. So many patients long for it and so many T's misunderstand those feelings.

I look forward to keeping this thread going for those who want to share their attachment or longed for attachment and how they experience it.

TN

quote:

And so I am curious as to what attachment means to each of you who have attachment issues. Do you feel that you have attached to your T? Do you feel like it's dangerous to attach? Do you feel like your T understands and is comfortable with attachment? What does it feel like when you acknowledge that there is an attachment?

Well, this is not an easy topic for me to write about, partly because I'm half in denial over having any attachment issues to begin with, but I've been inspired by what others wrote so here it goes.

I know I am attached to my T, mostly because I think about her when I am distressed. When I returned home from vacation recently, I had an impulse to email her and tell her I got back OK. That was funny because when she went on vacation, she emailed me to let me know when she got back and I reacted by being furious at her. Ha!

T knows that I am attached to her and very much accepts it. Attachment is an area that she understands very well and likes to talk about it. I'm actually the one who usually hates to talk about it. One time when she said the word "attachment" and I wasn't expecting it, I actually physically recoiled about a foot, which made both of us laugh.

I have mixed feelings about my attachment to my T. On one hand it's a pretty safe thing because I feel that unlike oldT she knows how to handle it well. She has made herself very available (so I don't get separation panic) and yet she doesn't push connection too hard (so I don't freak out about her getting too close.) The part I don't like about it is feeling that it's just a temporary relationship. I have what to me seems like a very "light" or "generic" diagnosis (adjustment disorder with mixed mood features) and few obvious symptoms at this point. As a result, I have a hard time justifying to myself why I need to be in therapy much longer (it's been around 10 months so far). So of course it's like, why get attached when I'll just have to move on so quickly? But at this point the only person pressuring me to leave is me, so...

My T hasn't told me that she is attached to me, but I think she is to some extent, based on her behavior. Just little things like the way she looks at me or how she emailed me to say she was back after her trip. I am OK with that as long as she is not too obvious about it. I've found that I can't take in too much support or connection at one time. I only tolerate it in tiny bits. Recently I emailed her to say I'd tried three times to leave a message on her VM but couldn't because I was afraid my reason for calling wasn't good enough. She emailed back to say that just needing some contact (I hate that word!) or connection was reason enough. My immediate reaction was to get mad and go kick some cushions. So...yeah.

Thanks to everyone else who has posted. I've enjoyed reading it.

quote:

I know he's a part of my life and so I don't have to *think* about him constantly in order to hold onto him. Sometimes it's more of a feeling, that warm positive feeling that I get from my relationship with him.

Liese,

I'm glad you expressed it this way because now I think I understand why I was caught up in a cycle of constantly thinking about my P and our conversations. I've been able to let go of that recently, yet I feel him with me in a more positive way. I think I've let go of the anxiety by allowing myself to accept attachment. I never realized it would make so much difference until it actually happened.

I wanted to finish commenting to those I neglected last time around (sorry ) and also to keep the conversation going on this topic.

Today when I was leaving my session with T he reminded me to hold onto the attachment and to use it to make me stronger. He said "it's not going anywhere" and then he smiled and said "it CAN'T go anywhere" no matter what I tell him or what I say. He then asked me if my attachment to my son would end because of something he told me. And we know of course it would not. My T is really good about having me experience the attachment from the side of being a parent who loves her child.

And sooooo.... if I talk to my T about abuse and trauma and give him more of my history... it won't change the way he feels about me. The attachment will remain true and strong. He will still be there and be my stronger wiser other. I am really beginning to feel secure in this relationship. Not because T said a bunch of words to me about trust... but because he lives that trust experience with me each time we are together. And we both live the attachment.

Hi BLT... it was good to hear that we have inspired you to talk about attachment even when it makes you uncomfortable. It does sound like your T, by her behavior, is aware of attachment issues and is very comfortable with it. Sometimes the kindness and care from our T is harder to take in and accept than being treated badly. I think your plan of taking it slowly in tiny steps is a good way to go. The most important thing about the attachment is having that secure base to turn to in times of distress, illness or fear. It seems that you already do this. I have been doing this while telling my T I'm not attached LOL. Of course he knew I was "nicely attached" to him as he put it.

Kashley I am so glad to hear you are now beginning a dialogue with your T about attachment. That is great. And to realize it was one of your better sessions really says something. If we can get past that initial fear of attaching/connecting then we find that the attachment is a really positive thing, giving us strength, courage and inspiration to grow and heal. Yes, being attached can seem like it makes us vulnerable and human (well we are human) but it really makes us stronger. I hope you continue to talk to T about this.

hic... it seems like your inner child is longing for the attachment she needs and you the adult are preventing her from having it. That only perpetuates the deprivation she may have experienced. What do you think the positive elements are? Just curious.

Hey Starry... glad to know that you have an accepting T regarding attachment. He was probably waiting for you to bring it up. If your T has shown himself to be consistent and steady and honest, then perhaps it's not dangerous to trust in the attachment with him. Have you had discussions about ET? My T is funny when I try to talk about ET (I don't feel that I have that with him, maybe oldT) he says that is love. Eros is love. It's just a kind of love. I used to flinch when he said the "L" word but I've gotten better about it LOL.

B2W... the hardest thing to do is to form a new attachment after being abandoned by an oldT. Trusting again seems impossible. I know. I've been there too. Especially when the oldT was someone who you worked hard to trust and then when you did, you were betrayed. You description sounds like a small child who wanted to bring flowers and was rejected. The image is so sad. I have, in fact, brought flowers to my oldT. I used to tell him it was to celebrate spring and would bring him yellow tulips. It made me happy to do that because I felt I had to earn his love.

How long have you been with your new T? I am with my current T now almost 2 years. It took a long time to feel any attachment feelings for him. I was so hurt and traumatized I couldn't even "see" him for months. But... I am attached now and although it feels different than the attachment to the oldT, it's more wonderful because there is no anxiety connected to it. It just feels good and safe too.

Hey Cat... I love reading about how you interact with both of your T's. I do think you have attachment with both of them in different ways. You have different types of relationships with both but they are complementary. I have seen you grow so much in these relationships. I do think that you test T1 way more than T2 but she has always come through. and because she has been so steady, you have come to trust the attachment a little more. You are doing what you are supposed to do. You will get there. It's hellish to go through but it's so worth it in the end.

Hugs to all
TN

I have a lot to say on this topic as my T and I talk about it all the time. It is my favourite topic.

But I am not strong enough to post for a while. Today is the anniversary of being terminated and I am suffering. My T - wonderful, amazing T - who cares for me has helped me and will be there over the next few days.

I will come back another day
Somedays.

(((Somedays)))

Thinking of you today.

I guess I will post this here because it fits.

I had such a hard session today but yes we ended up talking about the "a" word and I think we actually got somewhere.

I went in hating myself for having made an extra appointment this week, and feeling totally anxious. But finally after she had given me her weighted blanket, teddy bear, AND slinkie to play with, I managed to actually start talking. Ha!

I wound up talking about the part of myself that is like a parentified child, who is very protective of the littler parts and quite leery of grownups. This part had a few "demands" about how T should behave in order to make things safe, and amazingly, although there was a lot of anxiety around it, she did finally allow me to explain them to T. The main ones were that T was not in charge of what had to happen, that she couldn't have a hidden agenda, and that she wasn't allowed to mess with the "little guys." I explained the littler ones had been very attached to oldT and it turned out badly, but that they didn't learn from experience and all they knew how to do was keep pulling for attachment.

T was very respectful with all of it, even though I found it really awkward to talk about "parts" and kept laughing at myself. She said she would much rather work with that protective part of me than against it, and that she knew that part knew a lot more than she did about many things. She basically agreed to all of the demands. She also said that in talking about the different parts, I'd "beautifully" described the push-pull dynamic in my attachment style. At that point I asked if I had really told her anything she didn't already know. She said not really, but that I'd told her directly and it was significant for me to do that.

At that point I said part of the issue was that I saw her as a temporary figure in my life and so it was like "what's the point." I got a little raw at that point because my protective part was basically talking, and said, "What's the point in getting attached to you if you're just going to hand me off like everyone else." She looked straight at me and said, "Well BLT, I don't have any plans of handing you off." I guess that's just a statement of fact, but the way she said it also somehow said "you matter to me" and I felt that part of me soften a little...

I can't believe I'm like 7 months into therapy with her and we're still working on this kind of thing. Sometimes I compare myself to those of you with more trauma than me and am in awe of how you keep persevering. But I guess maybe this kind of stuff just takes a while...I try not to hate myself too much about it.

BLT.. I'm in a rush but thank you so much for sharing that with us. Seven months is not long at all to work on the relationship. You had a prior unsuccessful therapy which makes it a bit more complicated as well. I'm coming on TWO YEARS with my T and we are still working on trust. You will get there. This was a huge step for you. You did great work today!

TN

(((BLT)))

I'm so glad you asked for a session and, even though the session was difficult, your T sounds incredibly trustworthy. Maybe your trauma isn't as bad as the trauma of others here but it could just be that most of the harm slipped by you unnoticed because it involved interactions that were normal for you, etc. You know, the relational kind of trauma. And, if you could fix it, why not become the best you you can become? Why judge the merits of your decision to be in therapy? You deserve it. You deserve to have a nice, caring relationship with your therapist. Thanks for sharing with us.

quote:

hic... it seems like your inner child is longing for the attachment she needs and you the adult are preventing her from having it. That only perpetuates the deprivation she may have experienced. What do you think the positive elements are? Just curious.

You are probably right. I have a tendency to be somewhat vicious towards the inner kid. Maybe somewhere along the line I internalized the belief that that is what she deserves. I'm working on being more gentle with her, with myself. The relationship with T and the mixed feelings surrounding it do provide an awesome opportunity for that.

So, hmm, positive elements in the attachment. I have to confess I am feeling a bit mad with T at the moment so it's probably good for me to think about and answer this question now, lol. I believe one of the most important parts of the attachment is the contrast it creates with other significant relationships in my life. The gentleness in T's voice when I share a thought or a feeling with her, the acceptance and kindness in her eyes, the affection and playfulness in her smile, the quickness of a nimble intellect that meets me throughout meandering conversations about things that can be difficult to express-- it's all so different from the looks of derision, scorn, and skepticism that I've often been met with when I try to open up to others in my life about things they are apparently uncomfortable with. By being so different, T not only creates a world where I can feel seen and more real, but models a way that I might consider being towards myself.

Also (hope no one minds me waxing rather religious here), I've had some significant religious/spiritual abuse in my past. I end up projecting a lot of that onto the Lord God Almighty. I've tried not believing in God, but it doesn't work for me, instead I end up somewhat despairingly assuming an indifferent, absent, perhaps malevolent deity. It is kind of awful how those kinds of experiences can screw with your soul. Somehow working with T has been emotionally healing in a way that has positively affected my wounded spirituality as well. And since she addresses spiritual issues as part of her T work (or is at least willing to do so with clients who choose to go there) it's worked out rather nicely and been very cool.

Hmm, I don't know if all this babbling is straying somewhat from the original import of your question , but those are the positive elements of the attachment, at least as it appears to me today.

BLT - I am nearly two years into "treatment" or, more like two years into developing a relationship with my T, because the word treatment seems to sterilize the reality of the work...and I am still struggling with those things, working them out. About once every couple of months, I still have to go back to the confusion that, as I said before, this very close relationship exists in a fishbowl and once the fishbowl is gone (e.g. the office where we meet disappears due to retirement), I will no longer have access to that relationship. Sure, I can send an email or something, but it's not likely I could say, "Hey, I really feel the need to get together," and have it happen. I get why inside kids are freaked out by it and protectors go into "What's the point" detachment. Wish I knew when or how it will get worked through.

HIC - I'm so sorry that past experiences have colored the way you perceive God. I had a JW upbringing from an extended family member that tends to give me the same perceptions of God. It's so hard when the one who should feel safest, most loving in the world is seen as someone out to get you. Working with my T has started to address a lot of that (just him modeling it and labeling it for me), but there are parts really stuck in a very confused perception of what "God's love" means. For example, there is one part who is convinced God hates her, that she is "betraying" and angering God for having feelings of safety/connection/need surrounding T and He will punish her by taking him (or anyone) away if she allows herself to get too close. Anyway, that's just one of the ways it manifests, but it's kind of crazy-making, because T is describing this God who is so central to the love and safety of our work and she is constantly "seeing" another God, who is night-and-day different from how T talks about Him. I never thought of attaching to T and attaching to or connecting with God as directly interrelated...kind of an interesting concept.

I went to my session this week and talked about how I feel like my T is not okay with me as I am. I told him that I felt like there is something missing in our relationship. He told me there was something missing, something that doesn’t get transacted between us. Then he said that “we both” keep chipping away to try and uncover ways of interacting that will help convey what is missing. It meant a lot to me that he said “we” and talked about continuing to work through my feeling that something is missing. After that I told him a couple of things that I have been agonizing over for the last couple of weeks during our vacations.
I am not clear on what this has to do with attachment. I think what is missing for me is a belief that he is attached or connected to me.

TN, you asked me on my blog what I would feel like if I accepted that he was attached to me. I’m not sure but one thing I noticed was that after my session I felt extremely hopeful about therapy and our relationship. I didn’t obsess over what I had disclosed and what he thought of me. The next morning I woke up feeling very emotional and longing to talk to my T again. So even though I felt we were okay I still felt sad because I couldn’t talk to him more. Maybe that is one of the things I am guarding against by not feeling the connection. Maybe I find it “easier” to worry about what I’ve done and what he is thinking or feeling about me than to miss him.

quote:

TN, you asked me on my blog what I would feel like if I accepted that he was attached to me. I’m not sure but one thing I noticed was that after my session I felt extremely hopeful about therapy and our relationship. I didn’t obsess over what I had disclosed and what he thought of me.

Hi incognito... this is a good step forward. Accepting the attachment, although we really want it is still really hard because it feels scary and like we then will have something to lose or it can then be taken back. Even though I am feeling the attachment I still miss my T. Especially the next day. The next day some of the warmth wears off and then I want some contact with him. Sometimes I email him just to say thanks for the great session. He will write back... glad it helped. It's a simple connection but it gets me to my next appointment. Thankfully, I see him twice a week. I think you do too.

As for feeling like something is missing... well I have always struggled with my current T because I felt that his empathy was missing. It was SO hard to keep going back and pouring out my heart to someone who I felt did not feel any empathy and if he did then he certainly didn't show it!! I would yell at him all the time how he had no empathy and how could I tell him things when he was so cold and unfeeling. Boy I threw a lot of stuff at him in the beginning. He later told me that no one had ever accused him of that before LOL. Part of the problem was that I had no idea what empathy looked like. My old T gave me a skewed version of what I "thought" was his empathy. Aside from not understanding what it was... I was so scared and in so much pain whatever was really there was just NOT getting through to me. My defenses were blocking any empathy and also I was so afraid he WOULD feel something and then leave me as oldT did, that I would just shut out anything resembling his care or empathy and refused to see it for a long time. I guess until it felt safe enough and my trauma had subsided enough. But we talked about it A LOT. He still teases me about the whole empathy thing and he even has a button he can wear that says "This is me being empathetic" courtesy of a good friend of mine who I complained about him to all the time.

So maybe nothing is missing you are just not seeing it? If what you think is missing is his verbal acknowledgement of his care for you then you need to be blunt and tell him. Many T's won't tell you they care or how much but they will show it in their actions. I will say here that your T is kinda non-direct. Not ever having a sure and concrete answer on anything would probably make me a bit crazy. I like direct answers to my questions, even if I don't like the answer. Your T seem to always throw the question back in your court. I can understand how this would be frustrating. But hey, that is another topic to discuss. Why he just cannot give you a straight answer once in awhile?

Hang in there incognito...you are moving forward.

Hugs
TN

"And so I am curious as to what attachment means to each of you who have attachment issues. Do you feel that you have attached to your T? Do you feel like it's dangerous to attach? Do you feel like your T understands and is comfortable with attachment? What does it feel like when you acknowledge that there is an attachment?"

I have been fighting the whole attachment thing since day one. I was very up front with him about this from the very beginning, that I would come in and do the work but in no way was I going to allow myself to become attached to him.

The Therapist is comfortable with attachment, he deals with this all of the time.

I definitely feel that it is dangerous to attach, in essence, I feel that I am betraying myself to do so.

When I sense I am becoming attached, I tend to back away, as I said, I do not want to betray myself in becoming attached only to be abandoned or rejected. I won't do it.

quote:

B2W... the hardest thing to do is to form a new attachment after being abandoned by an oldT. Trusting again seems impossible. I know. I've been there too. Especially when the oldT was someone who you worked hard to trust and then when you did, you were betrayed. You description sounds like a small child who wanted to bring flowers and was rejected. The image is so sad. I have, in fact, brought flowers to my oldT. I used to tell him it was to celebrate spring and would bring him yellow tulips. It made me happy to do that because I felt I had to earn his love.

How long have you been with your new T? I am with my current T now almost 2 years. It took a long time to feel any attachment feelings for him. I was so hurt and traumatized I couldn't even "see" him for months. But... I am attached now and although it feels different than the attachment to the oldT, it's more wonderful because there is no anxiety connected to it. It just feels good and safe too.

In response to what you wrote to me...

I used to give her flowers sometimes with a thank you card that I always wrote from my heart,but I'd drop them off at the door without seeing her. She never acknowledged the flowers but I felt good giving her things. Well in truth I felt good giving them to her but wondered why she never said thank you - not even on a mail, so that part used to hurt. Bitter sweet experience I suppose, but still today I sometimes drop things off at her door. I know it sounds pathetic but I love her, and I don't know when and how that is going to change. If I could have one wish in this whole world it wouldn't be to win the lotto, it would be for her to forgive me and let me love her. Told you it was pathetic! I always thought I didn't deserve her so I really have no idea why it came as such a shock when she left me. The anxiety that you spoke of used to constantly run through my veins.

NewT: I have only been with her since May/June 2012 and my visits are once every 3-4 weeks so really not long at all. Now it seems I have no capacity to trust and I'm almost waiting for her to say I can't help you, you are too stuffed up. She knows how hurt I am about ExT, well as much as anyone can understand who hasn't been through it. It is not necessarily only about trusting her but also about my own view that life has shown me - where people come and go in your life and maybe I just don't deserve that transparent relationship that allows me the right to reveal who I am and still be cared for. Maybe it's just my path to know what it feels like to walk alone. It sounds depressing, but maybe it is just about me further developing my inner strength and leaning in toward the faith I have always had.

Not sure.

TN, thanks for understanding and for your individual responses, it means a lot.

B2W

Hi xoxo... I'm so glad you decided to contribute to the thread and talk about how you view your relationship with your T. I think you describe it beautifully and knowing how accepting and even indulgent your T is with this is so special. I wonder though if you did other work with other T's before seeing your current T? Those experiences may have prepared you for such a lovely relationship with this T. That is not to say that you are both just a very well-matched dyad and work well together.

I wonder if it's that younger inner child who feels like Daddy's little girl and the older adult you that has the fantasy of being married to him? It is really wonderful that you can say that you love him and that you can revel in the wonderful feelings that are evoked in this relationship and it's even better that you can feel his affection and care for you too.

I do agree that you have been doing some good work together. I can see the changes in you since you have joined the Board and I think that is great. I think what you have with your T is something that many of us aspire to.

Thank you for sharing that.

TN

quote:

I have been fighting the whole attachment thing since day one. I was very up front with him about this from the very beginning, that I would come in and do the work but in no way was I going to allow myself to become attached to him.

TAS... sorry I missed your post earlier....

I truly believe that without trust, without the relationship and without attaching when you have a prior earlier attachment injury ... you won't heal. I really do believe this. This is only my opinion but I have seen that those who have suffered deprivation and attachment injury have disrupted development and in order to go back and do it correctly, you need to have an attachment figure in your life (in place of the earlier abusive or non-present caregiver).

Others may argue this but it's what I believe and my T would back me up on this through his own years of experience.

It takes more energy, I find, to fight the attachment than to use it to help me heal and grow.

Keep talking it through with your T. It takes lots of time to get there.

TN

Talking about attachment with my T is one of my favourite things - it is out in the open and I enjoy talking about it, her and I and our relationship and it helps me make sense of what is happening. I love it that I can say to her "i need you badly right now" or "F... off, i hate you" and anything in between.

I cheated in our therapy a bit because I have known her for over 10 years and have been to therapy with her a number of times and we had a working relationship many years ago. We knew each other in different capacities. So i knew a lot about her and some of the attachment could be fastracked a bit. That makes things harder in a way though because it is hard to define our therapy relationship as we can't deny the past we have had together - we don't fit into the 'rules'. It is different and very flexible.

I have a very avoidant style and that then becomes very disorganised when I am challenged or triggered. I am very evasive and withdraw quickly. I am able to 'fool' my T (despite her knowing me very well) and get her off the 'scent' when she gets too close - but because we have a great relationship - I always confess and tell her how I evaded her questions or what I did or how it affected me. She says she has trouble reading me at times.

I say to her a lot 'you are smothering me, you have too much control, the feelings coming up are too strong, I hate you asking me that, you are scaring me, I don't want you, I don't need you' etc. Tons of things like that. They are difficult for me to say - but I can now say them to her and I know I will not be punished, told off, she won't be disappointed or angry etc. I actually need her NOT to back off when I am telling her she is smothering me - that is the exact time that I need her to come closer and to remind me that everything is ok and she is there for me.

I always give my T feedback - about her, about me, about us, about our therapy, about each session. I send her information and we talk about info and stories from books, the internet and other people's therapy journeys. Talking about attachment and feeling the attachment is what builds the trust for me.

I think we have a lovely relationship. I appreciate her each and every day and try to thank her often.

The strength of our relationship keeps me going back to her each week and gives me hope that I will learn now to be independent one day. Until then I am terrifyingly dependent on her to help me learn and to keep regulated.

I will write more as it comes up.
SD

Thank you for your reply True North.

I am running out of 'valid' reasons to push him away. I have exhausted every reason for pushing him away. I have tried to make him hate me, quit on me, tell me I am too much and yet, I can't seem to shake him loose.

Not that I don't have anymore reasons...I am now thinking I am going to up and quit because I CAN'T push him away.

It seems that it would be comforting that he couldn't be pushed away. I texted him the other day just to be sure he was still 'here.' Two days later I am telling him I am not coming in because I am just better off by myself (me pushing him away).

I get confused over this whole thing. I understand that it is linked to my childhood...but I am confused as to how it is playing out in the here and now and WHY it is playing out in the here and now.

I do thank you for your reply. Believe me, I am listening, even if it may not seem like it.

Thank you so much,
T.

Incog: I love the What a Shrink THinks blog you posted. The essay is beautiful. I just subscribed to the blog. Thanks for posting the link.

quote:

Originally posted by incognito:
I'm with you puppet.

I am attached to my T and very needy. I've progressed from insisting I wasn't attached, to admitting it to myself, to admitting it to others, and finally admitting it to T. Usually be saying something like if you knew how much I need you it would be a problem. He is very accepting about attachment and depencdence.

I don't think he is attached to me. He certainly hasn't said anything about being attached or connected to me. TN, I think it is amazing how your T talks about being attached to you. It is very heartwarming. I have read a few different blogs written by therapists who talk about caring for and being attached to their clients. Here are two of my favourite posts if you haven't read them.
What a Shrink Thinks - Unspoken (http://whatashrinkthinks.com/2012/05/01/unspoken/) and After Psychotherapy - Attachment Theory and the Healing Psychotherapy (www.afterpsychotherapy.com/attachment-theory-psychotherapy-relationship)
Sometimes reading about other therapists gives me hope that my T does care about me. Other times I just feel sad for what is missing in our relationship.

I am VERY attached. I have told my T I sometimes just want to be with her, near her, or sit at the foot of her chair, or just sit on her couch while she does paperwork at her desk, even be her cat so I could sit on her lap and she could pet me, or a puppy jumping up on her ankles. I imagine going to coffee or lunch with her, talking on the phone, asking countless questions. I want to know her whole life story. I even fantasize with her. ( I also have an intense eroticized transference to her.) At times I think I am pathetic feeling so needy, but this is the truth of the matter and I have told her this. She never returns any of these feelings and will often just listen and ask the occasional question. I prefer she not return any of my feelings, I would be extremely uncomfortable if she did, plus it would only give me false hope. She once said she had a special place in her heart for me and I wanted to believe her, but I was to afraid. I actually became irritated.

Attachment-hmmmm...I feel like I have had this powerful connection with my T since the very beginning. I was in crisis mode when I first met her, so I was desperate for help and was able to tell her just about anything. Over the years we've had some issues in our relationship and I did my usual shut down and retreat into myself thing.
At times I feel incredibly connected to her. I get a mind buzz when I'm talking with her on occasion. Sometimes it's like psychic moments. I asked her in a dream to do something for me and I was floored that the next time I was in her office the very thing that was in my dream was in her waiting room waiting there for me! I was surprised, elated and a bit scared that some how we were on the same wavelength. Also, for four sessions in a row we wore the same color and almost the same type of outfit.

I almost feel like I'm in love with her sometimes and I just can't see her enough (not sexual...just human connection). Other times those feelings aren't strong and I want to back away because it's too scary to get that close. Also, I know that this is a business type of relationship that is going to end soon. Once in a while she seems very cold and snippy toward me and I'm sure I'm cold too at times.

I hope we have a great connection this week. I need it. I woke up at 3 this morning with a bad dream that T just ended our sessions with two relaxation techniques and said that was it and we were done! Blah!
Even after T and I end our therapeutic relationship I hope I see her around at professional meetings or community events. Seeing as I'm in T training school I will eventually be going to conferences or volunteering at events where my T might be as well.