I don't know about technical definitions of enmeshment, but the way I think of it is that enmeshment is a sort of loss of yourself as you are absorbed into the other person where you lose all sense of yourself and who you are as a person without the other.

I think it's very easy, and even natural, for anyone who did not grow up with secure attachment to struggle with this line between attachment and enmeshment because we didn't get to experience all of the good parts of attachment before and now we can't get enough of it. It's like a chocolate lover being deprived of chocolate for years and years and then suddenly walking into Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory. Can you imagine!?

So, I don't necessarily think it's "bad" to be enmeshed with a therapist, as long as they are safe and are working to help you find who you are. We are literally changing the way we think about the world and ourselves and how we fit into all of it.... So how can we not become enmeshed with this seemingly safe person who is serving as our guide in this scary new adventure in the world? It's like clinging to a life raft in choppy waters because you've suddenly realized you've been using all the wrong muscles to swim and now you can't hold yourself up without some help. I imagine that we could not get through some of the hardest parts of therapy if we didn't have them to hold onto.

Then, as we start to grow and develop those muscles a little more, we can start to swim on our own. And moving out of the metaphor - we can start to define who we are and the line between us and our therapists can become a little clearer.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents on the matter. Every therapist in the world might disagree with me and say you should never be enmeshed...but I just don't see how anyone who has never had a safe attachment figure can get through therapy and not have periods of enmeshment because the relationship with a safe T is like nothing else we've ever experienced.

quote:

Rosenberg shared these signs, which are indicative of enmeshed relationships.

You neglect other relationships because of a preoccupation or compulsion to be in the relationship.
Your happiness or contentment relies on your relationship.
Your self-esteem is contingent upon this relationship.
When there’s a conflict or disagreement in your relationship, you feel extreme anxiety or fear or a compulsion to fix the problem.
When you’re not around this person or can’t talk to them, “a feeling of loneliness pervades [your] psyche. Without that connection, the loneliness will increase to the point of creating irrational desires to reconnect.”
There’s a “symbiotic emotional connection.” If they’re angry, anxious or depressed, you’re also angry, anxious or depressed. “You absorb those feelings and are drawn to remediate them.”

Have you noticed that this describes the kind of relationship young children have with their caregivers? People aren't born with a capacity for interdependent, non-enmeshed, adult relationships. They develop this capacity over time in the context of attuned relationships with attachment figures. Saying you're "doing it wrong" is like saying you are running wrong when you haven't even finished learning to crawl yet. You need to keep doing what you are doing, and eventually you will get there

P.S. I am in the same place, more or less. T took more than 24 hours to answer one of my emails last week, and it was progress because I just felt empty and hopeless, but called her to find out what was going on, instead of spiraling out of control into SI and self-hatred. It might sound pathetic but I will take the progress I can get!

sorry i wrote a random story about my session at the bottom too.


((draggers)) you're not stuffed lol it's not a good or bad thing to me, i'm trying to figure it out. i can never tell when stuff is 'right' or not 'right' even if it can't be either. i always beat myself up for not trying harder or something and i think i'm afraid because i have so much of my sense of self wrapped up in wanting to be a certain way, and follow certain mandated systemic internal rules.

((kashley)) I loved what you wrote here… i've had my ts say something similar, in a way. i just can't figure out where the fine line is… and maybe i don't need to know. i really want to have good relationships… my life is changing so much and so fast that i need/want to find new connections and it's like i won't allow myself unless i can be 'good enough' on the outset. i'm terrified that my t doesn't understand me. she encourages and draws me out, and the same time talking about enmeshment (so i therefore assume that is a pervasive problem or roadblock or defense, then she will say it's not and it makes no sense). i'm not saying that some re-do development stuff isn't essential i just wish.. i knew what part is some of attachment and what isn't. but i guess it is really interconnected. thank you for your wisdom here… and,

sorry if i'm being confusing???? there was a lot more going on in my brain when i wrote, but maybe i make sense, so i'm going to leave it all there for now. your analogy with the muscle stuff helped. i feel so much so so so much shame in need, and especially more in gratification. i'm not sure what's worse. receiving or wanting.

((BLT)) thank you for your wisdom, too. your analogy with crawling makes sense, and the list does sound like what infants do. i'm so confused as to which stages or stuff i'm ready to work on. i often feel like… i see other people 'running' so i want to run too. the crawling, the balance, the walking… those are just stepping stones that i want to plow through while i keep my eye solely focused on the end. i do that with so much in my life. thank you also for talking about your personal story… it helped to read.


i think it may be just the word i find triggering? that enmeshment *is* part of attachment… not some separate evil thing and while attachment is this wonderful 'goal'. i am just trying to understand myself and set my goals and it's so hard when i encounter something i don't understand. i really do not want enmeshed relationships in my life… and with t even talking about the subject today about something else… i suddenly started going through my head reevaluating everything i ever do. i hate that i put myself through this. i still can't figure it out… even reading this stuff which has been so helpful. i still feel like… well, incase something happens or incase i 'do it wrong' either in therapy or with others as i acquire them… that i shouldn't bother.

it is so complicated to have a relationship, any relationship. it takes maintenance, and all this emotional bull… for what end? i'm still desperately trying to see what it is… and maybe while i'm looking i am taking too much, or expecting too much or something. i've got no clue and no clue what t is talking about.


sorry to be long winded…

i did leave a message for t this afternoon updating her on how i was and letting her know that what i was upset about today - which i don't think i told you guys because well, i feel like anything going on in my therapy is just unimportant right now. i need a level of emotional support i don't even want to go within 40ft of asking for. let's just say… as we were talking today i broke down and was badly triggered and it spiraled out of control. my t was silent most of the time… it wasn't her and i wasn't focused on her but it was what happens sometimes… a slow agonizing crawl down in to the deep pits of my shame. when that happens lately my t has felt cold, and far away. even today she said 'we have to ground you' not in a nice way, just in a factual like… check box on a checklist. i calmed myself down, mostly my internal little self because i was out of control with emotion yet had so few thoughts, i was dissociated. i told myself how much i would hurt her when i got home, how she had to calm down, shut up and i would deal with her late. my father's voice. and i was quiet…

anyhow… t left a message and said she knew that it wasn't our relationship, and i wasn't blaming her for anything, and that she was sorry i was so upset… but she said rather plainly… she couldn't figure out what happened. she said she was confused what was going on. that she couldn't figure it out, or what to do… and said when i 'get to that place' where i am cascading down inside of myself there is nothing she can do.

it worried she's exasperated?

she said she would throw me a lifeline and try to think of stuff to help (I'm assuming this is being with me, sitting close, saying gentle things, saying anything at all actually…) but that it triggers me so badly she's sort of stuck.

so what is that, then? attachment issue? i don't know. enmeshment issue? don't know… but she's right. anything she says when i'm like that… i don't and can't respond. she said she couldn't figure out what i was feeling. she knew there was a lot of self hatred… but no idea why.

sorry, i made this sort of about my session along with this confusion. i just know it triggered me badly, but i'm not sure why, what i need, or what i need to understand.

Just wondering, can you ask yourself what you would really want or need at those times? I mean just imagine - if she would do anything, what at that moment would help? (try not to judge yourself for whatever comes to mind).

It's horrible being triggered and feeling so totally alone - especially during a therapy session when there is suposed to be someone there who can help.

Thinking of you,

SB

SB I don't really know what I need. That is a good question. It depends a lot on where I am coming from, and T reads that sorta well. Sometimes she will push more than I can tolerate. There are times I want to sit with her, or want her to talk gently. If I want her company I ask, sometimes she will offer and I check on with myself to see.

Other times... There really is nothing I want from her. I will want to disappear, or cannot tolerate the presence of another person. It makes things profoundly worse because I am in crisis or trauma and trapped in a room with something equally terrifying.

It's excessive demands I put on me. I want very specific things from myself and have rigid expectations. So I flip in to this internal dialogue... And I feel unmitigated horror unless I calm myself down myself.

Long story short.. It changes. That is sometimes where my T is just... Being there incase I need something she can give and try not to trigger me in the meanwhile. Sometimes I really wish she would coax out the part of me triggered or upset but she can't get there, I can't get there.

I'm not sure if that made even a penny of sense.

I'm hearing you. I think I have felt similar things at times... it kind of depends what part of me is triggered. so, there isn't one answer.

I figure there is a reason I am this way - it wasn't a choice, I am because of what has happened to me. You too. And your T knows this. No one would choose to feel that conflict and pain and desparation.

SB

(((SB)))

Definitely not a choice. I don't know what really happened with me. But when I have talked to my Ts about it... I've felt never welcomed in to the world. Even after I was conceived my mother's body was sick - she was in the hospital for a while because of me. When I was born I don't have a sense of being cherished, or celebrated - I probably was, I just mean on a heart level - and then from there... I know I've felt unwelcomed and I unwelcome myself, too. I often have described myself as feral.. I have a hard time knowing what to do with people. I get the biological stuff after a lot of touch/somatic therapy but bringing the rest on board is crazy. I don't think anyone would choose attachment problems

((Cat)) I'm so sorry you feel like a feral. I know this is online and not in person, but I have never gotten the feeling you don't know how to interact with others here. And also, you are definitely cherished here for your kind soul and supportive and warm heart. You make a difference here.

Whilst you might feel feral at times you are definitely good at interacting.

You are the way you are for a reason - even if you don't understand why/what happened.

Attachment problems are really painful - I'm working on mine too. It messes up everything doesn't it?

SB