Hi Liese. I completely understand where you are coming from. I am working with a therapist right now who puts herself behind the most sterile wall possible. Only bits and pieces of her life/authentic self emerge. I'm not saying her positivity isn't authentic - it's just not the full picture and that is rather obvious.

What I realized was that I was wanting something of her - a deeper connection - and I was disappointed because she didn't deliver. But, how could she? I never asked! So, I told her that it is hard for me to trust her because I feel like I barely know her, and things are starting to change. I know why she never had children, I know about her hobbies and family, and I feel like I actually do trust her a lot more.

I think what was most important was that, when I hear her self-disclose, I look her in the eyes so that she knows it is helpful, and then I thank her on and off for helping foster the therapeutic relationship a bit more, because I am honestly appreciative . . . and because I know the request was not comfortable for her. Our therapists want to be there for us, but have so many rule books in their way. Sometimes, they need a little direction and support in order give us the direction and support we crave - and I'm not saying she oversteps her boundaries with too much disclosure (I've experienced that and it can be traumatic to the client); she just says enough to make it feel like she is a full person.

Generally what's helped me is through my professional life I've had to study and use them, so I have an easier time with them than I would if I hadn't. One thing that might be helpful is researching the living heck out of therapeutic boundaries. Do it until your eyes feel like they're going to fall out! If you have a diagnosis, research common boundaries specific to that diagnosis. And definitely voice your feelings to your T. Let him know how you feel about him not providing an explanation. Let him know you don't need specifics, but would like a general reason. Challenge him...ask him why he doesn't tell you. Talk to him about how you're feeling......you might uncover something you need to know that will help make accepting the boundaries a bit easier for you.

Hope that helps.

((((rissy))))((((MusicBoy))))

Hey thank you both so much. You both answered me in such a way that I don't feel ashamed of having a difficult time with this.

I feel stuck because I get that he might have a boundary and I need to respect it BUT I feel like I have a genuine need and that his non-disclosure actually hurts me sometimes and causes more problems for both of us because of what I fill in. He just kind of wants me to blindly trust him that he would never think negative things about me when I reach out to him.

He wants me to stay and work it out but I don't want to if I can't get my needs met or if he will feel resentment meeting my needs when he doesn't want to. He said that's the point of trying to talk it out so that we can come to some common middle ground.

I just feel awful about NOT accepting who he is and wanting something more than he might want to give. He told me he's a private person. Why can't I accept that and still feel close to him? Would that be hard for most everyone?

I did find this article which I thought was interesting:

nature of intimacy in psychology

(((Liese)))

I saw this thread earlier, and wanted to come back and reply after I had a chance to read the article you posted, because I read just the first few paragraphs and it looks so good-- alas I have not really had an opportunity to sit down and ponder it yet (I hate to just skim read those things because then I never really take anything in).

I am really sorry you are having such a difficult time with the boundaries and all right now, though. Wanted to at least say that. I don't know that I have any good advice for accepting them. I think the one boundary I struggled with with my T was learning to tolerate her random approach to schedules. I think the way I got used to it was just-- freak out, reach out, get soothed (somewhat)-- over and over until the cycle stopped repeating itself. I'm not sure if I would recommend that or not, lol. T has maybe improved a little with consisitency as well, so it might not even all be that I'm over those issues. . .

quote:

I just feel awful about NOT accepting who he is and wanting something more than he might want to give. He told me he's a private person. Why can't I accept that and still feel close to him? Would that be hard for most everyone?

Did he say he was a private person in response to your wish that he would disclose more, or is that something he just said randomly and you connected the two? I think of myself as a private person, too, but I doubt that would prevent me from sharing some generic information with a client if I was a T and had reason to believe it would help.

You say "he might have a boundary I need to respect" and speak of "wanting something more than he might want to give". This might tells me that you aren't really sure yet, but are scared to find out? It *is* tough to take those risks because getting a no can feel so rejecting and annihilating. But maybe it's worth doing if you trust your T enough to help contain you even if there is a no?

Just some thoughts.

(((HELD)))

Thanks for the reply. I'm heading off to work but will be back later.

(((HELD)))

Yes, he did tell me he was a private person in reference to our boundary discussion. I'm okay with that but I need to know that it doesn't have anything to do with me. The conversation isn't over yet.

That leads into the second part of your question quite nicely as to whether or not I know there is a boundary there. So, yes, I do know that he is not a big sharer. Whenever I ask him what do I reveal about my past to new people I meet who are becoming friends, he always answers: "very slowly". I think he tends to be cautious by nature.

The research I've done seems to indicate that non-disclosure can lead to clients projecting more - all consistent with blank slate theory and practice. The problem with me is that, in the past, in my most intimate relationships, when someone didn't respond to me, it always meant the relationship was over. I don't have any positive stories in there to fall back on. To me, it feels like T is trying to get rid of me and doesn't want to work with me anymore. It doesn't matter if he says he wants to work with me 10 million times, I still feel like a burden, a bother.

I also think that he doesn't want to disclose because he doesn't want me to think he feels closer to me than he is, etc. etc. I come up with all kinds of negative reasons for why he doesn't disclose. He doesn't disclose why he doesn't disclose except to say that he's a private person.

I've been with him for a long time now and all I see is a face. I have nothing to attach to it outside of his office. It's kind of weird honestly. Sometimes I feel like I could just walk away and not care anything about him at all because I am not invested in his story, kwim? I HATE that feeling. I don't like not caring about people who have helped me, especially for so long.

He's not giving up on me and we will continue the conversation.

quote:

The research I've done seems to indicate that non-disclosure can lead to clients projecting more - all consistent with blank slate theory and practice.

But maybe that causes problems because his theoretical orientation hasn't specifically prepared him for working with projections and all the other stuff that comes up in a blank slate-y relationship? Probably there is a way to use all this to your advantage, if he could manage it.

Sorry if I seem critical of your T. You know I've run into similar issues.

(((HELD)))
You aren't being critical. It's probably one of the only areas where I feel he is weak. He thinks counter transference has to deal with feelings from the past and can't be bothered examining his feelings. We had a discussion this week and I told him that its really Any feeling they have in reaction to us. Present or past-based. It can be frustrating at times to feel like he just doesn't care about this stuff but I think he thinks its more complicated than it really is. He probably doesn't have to pay much attention to that type of thing with many other clients since I am doing a much more intense therapy with him than most.

It would help a lot if he got a handle on it but in the meantime we limp along. There are positives to this difficult time though in that I can see my child part more clearly than ever. I think she is healing finally.

((Liese))

I also haven't had time to read the article but I hope to soon. I have said the same thing so many times about "wanting something more than he might want to give" about my own T. I will share what my T discussed with me this week even though it was only the beginning of a discussion. He told me he thinks that I see things only in terms of right and wrong. So either he's wrong for not disclosing more or I'm wrong for not being able to accept that he doesn't disclose as much as I want. (Just to be clear I used disclose because it pertains to you, my T does disclose). I tend to think that there is someone wrong (not terrible or evil) if I am asking for something that the other person doesn't want to give me. I also think I must be doing things wrong to be in so much pain and to struggle so much. So I didn't embrace the there is no right or wrong here concept but I offer it to you in case it helps.

Liese, what kind of things do you wish your T would disclose. My T discloses appropriately I think. I've been seeing him for five years and I know about his family and where he goes on vacations and things like that. However, my T would never disclose what he thought about me when I reach out to him unless I asked him very specifically. He doesn't expect me to blindly trust him but he never volunteers reassuring things because if I don't ask him a specific question like "did you see my email and not respond until the end of the day because you were tired of me (trying to avoid a discussion etc)" If I ask a question like that then he might tell me he had an unusual day and tell me why he didn't read my email until the end of the day.

I am not sure this will be helpful, or anything, just wanted to point out with the others the importance of the theoretical orientation of your T to understand his use of disclosure. It probably cannot change your gut-feelings about it, but it may help rationalizing it?

My childhood T (I saw her from 8 to 18 years old) was the most blankest slate I've ever seen. I think if she had been able to do so, she would have worn a blank mask to make sure I could not see her face, you know, in case I could read anything on it. Though... she stayed with me for 10 years, saved my life, and did care for me (in a... blank-slate way). In 10 years of therapy, I think that the most I learned was her first name when she changed her office and got a new mail box with her name on it... Her orientation was psychoanalytical and Freudian (and that, I will never do again, not because it doesn't help, but because it is just ideologically incompatible with my current views), so the blank slate thing made sense and was part of the process and did not mean she did not care, even if... I struggled with it a lot (and still struggle with it retrospectively, so I am not saying at all that your feeling is not justified).

(after 10 years of that, disclosure scares me even more, but that's just my problem!)

So, I just wanted to mention that blank slates had good sides too?

((((COGS))))(((ABOUT)))

Thanks for sharing your experiences. About, your first T sounds amazing. I'm so glad she was so helpful. I think I will always struggle with certain aspects of the therapeutic relationship. It's a horse of a different color, isn't it?

Cogs, there was something going on in my T's life and it was affecting our relationship. He would often come to work with bags under his eyes. I kept asking him if he was tired of me but insisted that he wasn't. Then there were some out of contact stuff that he didn't respond to nearly as quickly as he usually does.

At first my T was taking the stance that I had to fit into his mold and he was sort of blaming me for my feelings of insecurity. He felt like we've been working so long together and he worked so hard to build trust with me that he couldn't understand why a couple of mistakes out of years of good therapy would shake me up like it did. That was the hard part. He got a bit defensive and was kind of like, Liese, I'm having a hard time right now. I've told you I'm having a hard time. I've told you it has nothing to do with you and so you should just trust me. But when someone isn't there for you in the same way they had been, it's hard to interpret, at least for me.

I had to point out to him that I wasn't necessarily so unusual and that non-disclosure can heighten negative projections. And that's how the non-disclosure issues came up. I will admit that I'm insecure but his non-disclosure doesn't help either. I just didn't want him to blame me for the entire way I was feeling because the relationship is co-created. We both give different things at different times and there were definitely changes on his side going on that were hard for me to interpret because of his non-disclosure. Does that make sense?

So we kind of got side-tracked on the non-disclosure issues when that isn't what started the whole conversation. If he had simply validated my insecurity and reacted a little more sensitively to it, we probably wouldn't have gotten there. I don't know how present he has been with me these past few months because he has been going through a difficult time.

(((Liese))) Sorry the lack of disclosure is triggering. I did read the article, but I couldn't really relate it much to my own experience in therapy and some minor irritation at the style of writing.

The amount of disclosure you're describing from your therapists sounds just about what I'd like, lol. Enough reassurance to know it's not about me, but not too many details. My T disclosures a LOT. I like it when it is just about him as a person, in general, as it fosters closeness/attachment. I don't mind it when it is about what's going on in his life, even. However, when it is about what is going on in his life as it relates to his interactions with me, his responsiveness, or lack thereof, it freaks me out!

In fact, we have just been texting about this again today. When someone explains something to me, it feels like they think I have these high expectations of them that are being failed or let down...and that feels hugely triggering. So, if someone explains/justifies something, I start to feel like they're being burdened/threatened by some imagined need of mine and get really stressed and afraid. I don't know whether my parents had to justify denying things I needed or how much I was forced to justify things that has made me so freaked out about it.

On top of that, sometimes the content of what my T shares is triggering. For instance, he didn't respond to two things I asked for/need a reply on this weekend. Each time, I hadn't heard back the next day, so I sent another text just being clear, "Hey, I need an answer on this," and did my own little justification thing about why. Then, when T replied, he apologized for the delay, explained exactly how/why he was busy and didn't reply, the, answered my question.

The first explanation was that one of his sons was in town, the first time he'd seen him in six months, and so he was distracted/busy all day. I think the purpose was so I wouldn't project his non-response was about me, disliking me, etc. Exactly what you are asking for, basically. Instead, I felt incredibly freaked out about the details provided, as if he thought I was demanding an instant reply (I wasn't, just making sure to be more clear about what I needed). Then, incredibly guilty for disrupting his time with his son, when he gets so little. Then, horrible that I get to see him four hours a week when his son sees him for a weekend only once every six months or so, and I was managing to interrupt that time.

The next time was this morning, when I hadn't heard back again, and he explained that "all the kids" (grandkids) were over for a birthday party, and he was very busy all day. So, more guilt, and a sudden reminder that he was in the middle of something I never really got to experience and never will. I will never have safe parents who remembered, were there for, participated in my birthday. It was very occasionally even celebrated in my childhood. Boo will never have grandparents, at least from my side of the family, who are (relationally) close to her. So, I was hit with a massive wave of unbelonging, not because I don't get to belong to T, since we have a unique relationship and I belong to him in a way I appreciate...but just because I never get to have that...ever...

Anyway, his disclosures this weekend ended up causing me a lot of stress (fear he thought I had these unreasonable expectations about his replying within a certain timeframe on his days off) and distress (guilt, grief, etc.). It all becomes good therapy content, obviously, but I would have just as soon he just told me generically that he was busy all weekend or that he had some family commitments than to give details in that way.

I think he tried to do it for my sake, and if that's the case, I'd just as soon he not. I told him so. But, I also told him that if it's just him naturally sharing details in the way he just feels comfortable doing, I don't want him censoring himself there either, because the only thing more painful than being reminded of of not belonging would be to have this sense of withholding from him, where he was being inauthentic in order to avoid triggering me. The fact that my T just is who he is, very sincerely, is one of the reasons I feel so safe with him.

Anyway, I get what you're saying, that without details, it's hard for you to imagine and trust it isn't about you. But, I guess I feel safe enough myself with the general reassurance, "Sorry, just busy and worn out. Everything is still good with us." I'm still not to the point that I can work through the projection without that reassurance, but when I ask him specific questions about what I fear (he's tired of me, is going to leave, is mad, etc.), just him saying it's not true seems to work best.

I also am on the receiving end of my T's incredulousness that I don't trust him yet, after everything we've been through. That was painful, because it felt like I'd failed him. But, we worked through that and he doesn't take it personally when I project, even if he can't understand how I would get those messages from our interactions.

Lately, he has just been really sweet and cute in his replies, letting me know that those worries are far from true (to the point of ridiculous), but without any sense that my fears are burdensome to him. In fact, sometimes he specifically identifies that he's not wanting to come across as invalidating how real those fears are to me. But, for example, when I was freaked out and asked if he was mad, he sent back a smiley emoticon and then, "You're a delight, silly." I mean, his usual reply is a standard, "All is well, nothing has changed," but lately, I get more of the...emphasis that he really can't relate at all to the thoughts/feelings I am projecting on him, because he feels so differently about me? Once, recently, in session, he said, "Silly, you know I'm not mad," and I stopped and realized, you know what...I DO know he's not mad! He's never actually SEEMED mad at me. Anyway, it feels really safe (though embarrassing) when he does it like that. So, I can really believe him he doesn't feel how I fear, but also don't feel guilty like my projecting has insulted him...

Sorry this was so long. It's just something I'm working through myself right now and have kind of an alternative preference in my case that works better for me. I realize we have different things we struggle with, so for me, knowing more details would be problematic, whereas for you, it might provide relief.

(((YAKU)))

I really appreciate your perspective. I tend to think that I probably would have problems also if he did disclose more like your T does on occasion and would think the same types of things you do. Before I started to email him, I only called him once or twice a month in between sessions and so I could think whatever I wanted to in between. But now that we email, his tone seems so different via email and sometimes very clinical that I don't think that's helping either. I'm going to try to stop emailing.

I HAVE to let the disclosure issue drop because he's not comfortable with it. I only brought it up in the first place to defend myself because of yes, my T's incredulousness that I don't trust him yet after everything we have been through.

We had an awful session today but a nice phone chat tonight. We both decided that we are focusing too much on these issues and everything is getting convoluted so we are going to try to drop it and focus on something else. Famous last words.

I can't help but wonder if it's really all about accessing that rage that I felt as a child when my parents failed me and not so much about him taking that pain away?

Liese,

I've been thinking about the kind of disclosure that you want from your T and I think Yake has already described the difficulties in knowing too many details. My T has shared some difficult things he has been through when I have asked him specific questions, however, my questions weren't related to how he was acting with me. As an example this summer my T told me he was going to a certain place to visit his sister and a few weeks later he told me he was going back to the same spot. I said I hope your sister is okay and he told me his sister had died. It was difficult for me because I felt so sorry for him. I also felt like I had nothing important enough to say when he was working through his own pain and loss. My T assured me that he was working through his pain and that he was capable of being present with me right now. He showed me that after we spent some time discussing my feelings about his loss.

I think what is most difficult for you might not be the lack of self-disclosure. Instead I think the fact you can see that he is struggling right now is painful. I think being afraid that he isn't fully present for you is very difficult and perhaps is the real issue between you both. Just my thoughts Liese and I hope things get better with your T soon.

((((COGS))))

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, the fact that is not infallible hit me kind of hard. I wasn't quite ready to lose that image of him yet but what can you do?

It's been a very difficult few months. We had an awful session yesterday but talked by phone last night. We both agreed that we were focusing too much on the issue and getting sidetracked.

It's very hard for me to think that he can be loving by denying me things I think I need. I am struggling with that now. I'm also struggling with the fact that I have tended to be a people pleaser and he's asking me to fit into his comfort zone. I don't know how to respect myself for doing that. Am I staying just because of my feelings for him? Or am I staying because it's better for me and I will have to face countless boundaries in the future from many people?

Maybe I can respect myself because I am choosing to stay and respect his boundaries and that's really what relationship building is all about, right?

hi liese,

it sounds like you're in a difficult place, i'm sorry to hear that maybe like cogs said, its not necessarily the self disclosure or not, its more the fact that you see that something is wrong, he is struggling with something.

i experienced this with my previous T who wasnt very self disclosing, only ocasionally and if i asked (but a lot more than my current T who is more of a blank slate type). anyway, she had to go away at short notice and i sort of knew it was something really bad for her just by looking at her, she told me a family member was sick and later on i found out it was her father who eventually passed away. it was very hard to do therapy during that time (now i sound really selfish) as i felt like i shouldnt be coming to her with my crap, and because i knew about it, i kept thinking about it and felt bad for her, felt bad for being selfish, tried not to bother her with too much etc. i'm not sure if i would have felt better if she hadnt told me, because i would have seen that something wasnt right anyway. she didnt say too much and i didn ask too much, but it was on my mind a lot. by disclosing, by starting it, it can become a bigger thing that will be on your mind even more. so maybe that's what your T is trying to do, trying to let it pass while he deals with whatever it is, and not making it any bigger than it needs to be.

not sure if that was any help at all... i hope this wont make you worry even more about your T. you have enough to worry about - yourself, and you're not really the one to help him with his problems anyway. i hope that soon he will be back to his old self again.

puppet

(((PUPPET)))

My T seems to be doing better. I asked him if he had cancer and he said no. I asked him if he would tell me if he had cancer and he said he would when it got to the point where it was interfering with his work.

So, he really does want to handle all this stuff on his own. On an emotional level, it's a difficult spot to be in.

Actually, I think it was so sweet (and human) of you to be concerned for your T. I know in theory, it's not supposed to be that way but we are human and they are human. How could you NOT have empathy for her? In what other relationship do we only think about ourselves and not care about the other person at all? I'm not always sure this relationship is entirely healthy.

Did you eventually get past not wanting to burden her?

LIESE) I'm so glad your T is doing better. I understand that it is really difficult to turn off any and all feelings, when our T's have human problems just like all of us do. Its so normal to feel empathy for someone we care about, and how can we shut off those feelings, just because there are "Boundary Rules" in the "Therapy World". I understand there has to be boundaries, and they're important to have, but I guess we have a connection with our T's and yes, sometimes we just feel "compassion and empathy" with our T's. For me, its just a matter of knowing "how much" empathy I can handle, before I am worrying to much about my T's issues, and I think that he is has a good balance about what he's going to tell his patients, so we don't get too worried and take on his load. So I'm thinking maybe your T is taking good care of you, by not telling you to much, because he cares about you. Its just a thought.

((((EME))))

I'm just getting to the point emotionally where I can possibly see another "truth" besides my own. I am beginning to believe what you said is true, that he is not disclosing because he cares about me. Thanks.

((liese))

i hope your T and therefore you are doing better.

in answer to your question, it got easier eventually, but i think we should have talked more about it, about how it affected me, and then it really would have been easier. i think you're doing great, bringing this up with your T, keep talking about it if its affecting you or its still on your mind.

puppet

((((PUPPET))))

Thanks for asking. We are doing okay. He's committed to me and thinks we can work through this. Step by step. I asked him to help me with my feelings that I'm being a doormat by staying.

I think it's inevitable that their lives are going to affect ours especially as long term clients. It really is more of a relationship then. If it's a short-term gig, I could see these types of things not affecting the therapy relationship much but .. still.

For instance, I told my T on Monday that I wasn't going to come in on Thursday. He said he would hold it for me anyway. I told him not to, that I didn't want it hanging over my head all week, "do I want to go to therapy?" or "do I not want to go to therapy?". I just wanted to leave with a clear head and focus on other things.

AFter I left, I felt awful. I think I had some separation issues going on and I emailed him to see if my spot was still available on Thursday. It wasn't. He offered me a spot on Wednesday (tomorrow) but it was after the kids would be home from school and I have a lot going on tomorrow - and I wasn't sure I'd be in the right frame of mind to reconnect with him - which is what I felt I needed to do.

Before I could reply to him about Wednesday, he emailed me back and said, if Wednesday didn't work, he could see me at 9:45 a.m. on Thursday. Now, I know he doesn't start until 10:30 a.m. I also know he looked tired already on Monday. By the time we had this discussion, we had emailed back and forth quite a bit and the separation stuff had eased and I felt much better. So, keeping that in mind as well as the fact that he'd have a much longer day if he came in early to see me, I told him that the gesture was appreciated but that I was doing better and I thought I'd be okay not coming in. He still left the offer out there just in case but unless I am in terrible crisis, I just can't see myself "making" him start his day earlier than normal.

I wouldn't know all that stuff about his schedule unless I was a long-term client. I also probably wouldn't have noticed that he looked more tired than usual on Monday. But, IDK, I feel since I was the one who cancelled and was emphatic about cancelling, unless I was in crisis I just wouldn't feel good about him coming in early to see me. Maybe I'm taking care of him and I shouldn't be but this just feels right to me. I got what I needed from our emails and I'm doing better.

Hi Liese,

I'm glad you got what you needed from the emails to calm you and make you less anxious. I also get that terrible separation anxiety as soon as I walk out the door. It is the worst for the first few hours after I leave T. Then it eases. Yet other times I feel nothing and those are the times when I go numb. That is usually a worse indication than the separation anxiety.

I know it is difficult to put aside the urge to take care of our T's. I took care of oldT and it did not turn out very well. My current T is very strict about my not doing that with him. I wondered recently if he was okay because he seemed tired and off his game but I think he just needed a vacation.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It helps to feel less alone.

TN

Hi Liese, hi TN,

I am glad you could work through some of the anxiety and... thank you for sharing. I don't dare to reply much because I don't feel I have any useful insight, but I am reading, and grateful for your posts.

I'll try not to hijack the post, I was just wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on what you said, TN (or via PM if it disturbs the thread)?

quote:

I'm glad you got what you needed from the emails to calm you and make you less anxious. I also get that terrible separation anxiety as soon as I walk out the door. It is the worst for the first few hours after I leave T. Then it eases. Yet other times I feel nothing and those are the times when I go numb. That is usually a worse indication than the separation anxiety.

I am not always sure I understand what "separation anxiety" is, I am trying to identify what I feel, and... those words are "tempting", but I feel they refer to something specific, so I would not want to misunderstand them? So... any chance you could elaborate on them? (because the "anxiety or numbness" state after each session is quite exactly like I feel, and... having words, reading that "no, I'm not the only one" helps to make sense of the therapy experience.)

Sorry for intruding.

Take care

((((TN))))

I think when I separate, I go right to that painful place of disconnection. It's awful. Sometimes worse than others. I think if I get angry, I go to disconnection because in the past anger was unsafe so if I wanted to save myself I had to disconnect. I don't know if I'm making any sense, even to myself. But I think it has to do with anger and perceived powerlessness and power struggles. My mother was a big one on power struggles and unfortunately, I wound up having difficulty with them.

((((ABOUT))))

No problem intruding. Glad you posted!

Liese,

I'm glad that talking to your T has helped ease your separation anxiety. I am glad there is someone else who has a similar cancel/don't cancel cycle with their T. My T also always says I will leave the session open for you (unless I tell him I'm cancelling because I have a conflict). If I'm upset he says I'll leave it open and so far I've always gone. I've also told him I hate when you leave it open because then I have to keep thinking about it. I went through it again today.