CT I'm so sorry you are suffering. I have felt exactly as you describe at times. I never feel like I have enough time with my T to say everything that I need to. Sometimes there is so much on my mind that I have to write it down and prioritize. This last session I ran overtime by 20 minutes and still left with more to say (I guess I just like to talk LOL). Aside from that...losing the connection is hard to deal with. I've been struggling with it too lately and we have both been working things out to get it back. We had a disruption last week and things have just not felt right since then. Sometimes I think when we are too stressed and busy with life there is no room to focus on the internal voice of our Ts. It just gets lost in the everyday BS we have to deal with.

When you are not being nice to yourself you need to stop and try to understand why you feel the need to punish yourself. I do this quite often and if I stop and think about it I realize I am punishing myself because my mom is no longer around to do it for me. I do it because it is what I think I deserve. We are our own worst judges and critics. And just because I have a little insight as to why I behave this way does not mean I have any answers for you. I'm still searching for the answer myself.

I understand the powerful attachment you feel w/your T and that you want to be her little girl so you can recreate the perfect childhood. I want to live with my T too but not as his daughter ...

So although I have no solutions for you I just wanted to say that I understand how you feel. I'm glad you were able to post about it... sometimes that alone will help. The other thing I would say is to print this out and take it to therapy so you can tell your T how you have been feeling. That should get therapy off to a running start again.

Be well,
TN

TN- Thank you for you insightful reply. It means a lot to hear a voice of reason- and to know that I am not the only one who feels this way.

I had the worst session of my life today. I am actually in shock about how awful it was. I was going in to talk about the stuff I wrote about in this post, and as I gave her my letter, I laid down on the couch like normal. Before she read the letter, she said, "I want to talk to you about this- Will you please sit up?" Long, painful story short, she thinks that me laying down during the session is regressive and destructive. I sat up and she went on to read my letter but I was instantly upset and I shutdown. I don't understand why she wants to take away my sense of safety. She says she doesn't want my safety to depend on her or her couch. The little girl in me is SOOOOO hurt right now. I mean, I look forward to laying on her couch every week, it's as close as I can get to my t and laying down with my face in pillows is what allows me the protection I need to be really vulnerable with my t.

After my t read my letter, she tried to talk to me about something I had written, but I told her I didn't want to talk. She kept asking what was wrong and I just kept saying I don't want to talk about it. She tried and tried but I wouldn't talk and just kept deflecting and trying to change the subject. I talked some in the last few minutes and told her I was embarrassed and felt stupid for ever letting myself be comfortable and that I felt like cutting/hurting myself. I don't even remember what all was said. I just know that one line really bothers me- she said, "this is my office, not my house." What does that mean? What does her house have to do with anything?

I really feel like this is the equivalent of taking a kids blankie away all the sudden. I mean... wow, I wasn't expecting this at all. And what's worse, is there are two very distinct aspects of this situation that read the same way my relationship with my mother (not the same intent, but the same feelings): 1) I finally had something good so she wanted to be sure and take it away... how many times did THAT play out with my mom? and 2) After last weeks session, I found out I had pink eye and called my t to tell her cause I had just finished crying on her pillows and thought she might want to wash them. I find it REALLY convenient that this week she all the sudden doesn't want me to lay on her pillows... she really just reiterated the message my mom gave me over and over and over that I am disgusting and need to be kept at a distance.

I don't know what to do... I mean the little girl in me DOES NOT TRUST my t right now and I don't blame her. She feels SO rejected again and i feel like this is just another time that I should have protected her from the people that are SUPPOSED to protect her. I can't believe this... I'm in shock...

CT,
Your session sounds so painful. Your first entry talks about feeling regressed and having fantasies of being your T's "kid". So, I can only imagine how it felt to be reminded you are in her "office". T's are suppose to stir things up inside. But they typically stand by us while we figure out why it hurts so bad. And from my experience with T's, there is usually a "method to their madness" and it comes from a loving place with our well being in mind. Your little one is lucky to have you as a protector and a voice for her while the confusion gets sorted out. I hope you're able to tell your T or write to your T about the similarities between your last session and your little one's life experiences, (without shutting down ).

I think you're brave to be able to share such raw emotions. Thank you for sharing them.

Q

quote:

Originally posted by Chronically Transferred:
I don't know what to do... I mean the little girl in me DOES NOT TRUST my t right now and I don't blame her. She feels SO rejected again and i feel like this is just another time that I should have protected her from the people that are SUPPOSED to protect her. I can't believe this... I'm in shock...

CT,
I don't blame her either. I would think that your big girl wouldn't be able to trust your T right now either.

I'm sorry this happened. I can imagine how rejected you must feel.

I'm actually pretty angry for you. Sometimes on this site, I'm completely dumbfounded by what some peoples' Ts do. This is one of those times. I don't remotely understand why she thinks that you shouldn't be in a position in which you feel safe. If it's regression, then maybe that's what you need right now. What's wrong with that? Maybe you need to keep going to that place over and over in order to heal that part of you. I don't get it at all. What she did was definitely a way to get you to shut down. If someone had a particular chair that they liked to sit in, would she take it away from them? Or if someone liked to sit on the floor, would she not let them? No! She'd probably respect that. So, I don't understand why she did this to you. It makes no sense to me. Maybe she has her reasons, but whatever they are, I don't agree with them. On top of all of that, this was a time when you really needed her support, and she didn't give it to you.

I hope that you talk to her about it and tell her how painful it was.

catgirl

Thanks Questing and CG. I appreciate the support and understanding.

I talked to my t yesterday on the phone and I am going in tomorrow for an extra session. The adult in me understands why she wants me to sit up. She says I talk more and interact with her more that way, which I see. I also understand that she doesn't want me to think that i can ONLY be safe when i am with her, laying on her couch. The request itself doesn't bother me because I understand her reasoning and trust her (even though I don't agree with her).

I guess it bothered me so much because I was already laying down and in a vulnerable state. In the moment it felt like I tried to crawl into her lap and she just pushed me away- coldly and nonchalantly. That sense of rejection is what stings and is so dreadfully familiar. I truly don't think she knew how deeply this would affect me and I think if she had, she would have brought it up more proactively. Even she said on the phone yesterday that maybe she should have mentioned her concern about my dependence on this position all along... umm, YEAH!

I guess another thing is that is seemed so flippant-- and like I had NO choice or say in the matter whatsoever. She decided it and that was it... I mean, she listened to my protests and all but her mind was made up and I feel like I'm just supposed to get over it. The whole thing just felt so shaming because i thought I was doing a good thing by trying to get myself in a position to open up but it apparently wasn't a good thing after all. And I hate being called out or rebuked like that. I feel so stupid for even trying and it makes me not want to try anymore. I was really getting to the point where I thought she would always be gentle with me and this felt SO abrupt. I feel tricked... like she got me to trust her just so she can f*** with me.

What sucks is i understand her intentions were not to hurt me- that she has my best long term interest in mind. But she recreated so many past experiences all at once: I thought I was safe/okay but I really wasn't, I tried to connect and was pushed away, I was too disgusting to be accepted, my feelings didn't matter, someone who was supposed to protect me hurt me, the other shoe always drops, I finally had something good and it was arbitrarily taken away from me just because, relying on other people is too unpredictable and scary and being vulnerable will only lead to pain and rejection. And of course all of my old tapes are playing non-stop: you don't deserve to be safe, you're stupid for trying, you never should have believed that she cared about you, people who are supposed to be safe really want to hurt you, you can't do anything (not even therapy) right, you are too disgusting to be loved, you never should have let your guard down, boundaries are just her excuse for not having to be near you, you're a dumbass for letting yourself get comfortable, you deserve to be punished for misbehaving, etc.

Hopefully something productive will come from this. I just wish she had been more careful with me. I hope i can talk tomorrow without shutting down, and I hope that this is a repairable disruption. I'm scared to be vulnerable again though- I fear I will do something else wrong and she'll call me out again. Maybe I'm not supposed to be comfortable with her... I don't know. Right now I'm not even sure i want to risk being close to her anymore... it didn't really serve me all that well. I think i might ask for a referral tomorrow.

-CT

Hi CT

I hope you are feeling a bit better. Your post made me hurt too...and I do understand your pain.

I did have a little bit of a different "take" on the actions of your T. I think she wanted to make sure she was talking to your adult self and asked you to sit up to facilitate that interaction. Sometimes laying down with your T is seen as seductive and perhaps she is feeling somewhat seduced by you and wanted to interrupt that process? I think she could have explained this to you....but you know how T's are. They don't want to "show" you or illustrate anything to you...they want you to discover that "insight" into yourself. Ya know?
Laying down does put you in a vulnerable position but not necessarily in a good way. It is possible, that she was trying to be protective by asking you to sit up.

Anyway...it was just another thought on what might have been happening in your session. Good luck with your session tomorrow. Ask her what her intention was....she may not give you the answer...but she cannot stop you from asking the question....eh?

SD

Hi CT,
Everyone's right - i am not suprised you're confused and hurt by what your T said and did. How can she just all of a sudden decide you can't lay on the couch and expect you to be ok with that? It's something that should have been discussed and maybe you could have slowly started to sit up more, etc. But she can't just snap her fingers and expect you to do what you're told... She doesn't have that right. Feeling safe in therapy is essential to getting anywhere and she has to know that... If she had concerns she should have brought them up and worked through the reasons you need to be in that position, and provide an alternative way for you to feel safe.

quote:

I guess another thing is that is seemed so flippant-- and like I had NO choice or say in the matter whatsoever. She decided it and that was it... I mean, she listened to my protests and all but her mind was made up and I feel like I'm just supposed to get over it.

Yeah i hate that. They pull out the whole "I am the professional here" and it comes out of nowhere!!! It's like they got up that day and decided ok, i need to change this, this, this with these people and *wham* you're like where did that come from!?

Can you talk to her about why you need to feel safe. I understand her desire to talk to you while you are sitting up but your feelings of security have to come before her desire to connect. My T knows if I need to talk to her about something hard, i won't make eye contact the whole time, even when she is responding. If she tried to force eye contact i'd shut down. Simple as that.

I hope today is a better session and you can work through some of these feelings.

LTF

CT,
You and I have discussed this before, so I didn't mention it before, but now, I want to. I lay down the entire session for all of my sessions. When I walk in for my session, my T has a pillow and blanket and stuffed animal on the ground for me, because she knows that that's where I want to be. Most of the time, my head is covered by my jacket. I'm also often sort of scrunched up under a chair. My T has always said that it doesn't bother her. She has never tried to get me to be in any other position. In fact, she never even comments on it unless I do first. That's why it's so hard for me to get how why your T did/said this to you. I've grown so much, and experienced so much healing, and none of it was done sitting in a chair across from my T looking into her face.

I hope that you're able to work it out with her.

catgirl

Hi all... Thanks SD and CG for you support and opinions. It's really nice to have a place to find objective ideas and thoughts!

I had my extra session with my t yesterday and it went really well. Difficult... but productive. I managed not to shut down... for the most part... and we talked through a lot of stuff. I don't want to give a blow-by-blow, but i would like to share how it went.

First thing i think i should mention is that i haven't always laid down in my sessions (which, CG, i think is one of the main differences between what you describe doing with your t and what i have been doing... am i correct in assuming you have almost always laid down in your sessions regardless of the topic?). It's something for me that really came about when we started addressing and tapping into some very deep, childlike emotions and areas in me. Well, when my t said she thought this was regressive, i thought she meant in the context of this somehow undoing the progress i have been making... that I was regressing. However, when we were talking yesterday, she said something about me being an adult and i said "i don't wanna be a grown up... i wanna be a kid and get all the stuff i was supposed to get then from you." She said "i know that is what you want and i understand that. However, we can't go back and redo your childhood, but we can have corrective experiences throughout our relationship." At that moment i realized what she meant by regressive... that by laying down i was trying become/act childlike to redo/reinact how things were for me as a child. What she continued to explain, and what "In Session" talks about at some point, is that if i try to become a child again with her, i am extremely vulnerable- and i am only safe as long as she decides not to take advantage of/exploit me. Plus, wanting her to treat me as a child discredits all of the experiences i have had and knowledge i have gained as an adult... it isn't a wholistic, appropriate approach. So it is in this context that she doesn't want my safety to depend so heavily on her and her actions... not that i am not supposed to be safe with her which is what it felt like the other day.

The other thing about this whole scenario that took place was that i hate being noticed and called out for a behavior... in my head i am supposed to pick up on something i am doing "wrong" ahead of time and adjust before someone ever has to say anything. When i was a kid, if my behavior ever had to be corrected, it meant that something was seriously f***ed up. Needless to say, i felt bad and stupid and awful and ashamed when she had to say something to me about my behavior. She asked how i thought she should bring things like this to my attention and i told her that she should write me a note and/or hint around it like i'm used to people doing (mind you i said this half-joking because i am aware that it is dysfunctional). She told me that she will never operate with me like that- in indirect, passive ways. She said she is going to be direct with me and that her being direct doesn't mean what it feels like to me... that nothing has changed and she doesn't think i am bad or stupid because she had to ask me to change something. I told her that i feel like i should have been able to adjust before she had to say anything... essentially that i should have the answer before her... and she said then why are you here? (to which she quickly added "and i am not saying that to be confrontational and get you to quit therapy!... hehe she knows me TOO well).

Another thing i asked her was "if i can't lay down, how am i supposed to hide from you?" She said "i don't want you to hide" to which i said, "well duh, but i want to!" She then suprised me by saying "no... you don't really want to. you feel like you need to but from what you tell me, you don't want to. And I'm not going to willingly reinforce your belief that you have to hide when to talk to me. It isn't true." Wow... still swallowing that one. She also asked me something else that i am still digesting... she asked if i am at all struck by the fact that all the ways in which i say are my attempts to connect with her seem to accomplish the opposite..." food for thought...

thanks for listening... sorry i wrote a book.

-CT

Since the session detailed above, I haven't been in a very good place. Things have been very inconsistent and all over the place for me. There is a big wall up between me and my t... barely talked at all in my last session... and i hate feeling so far away from her. Plus, I've been vascillating between loving her and hating her... at each extreme.

I have written to her some the past few days and she called yesterday and left me a really nice message that helped me not to feel so rejected about the whole "laying down" business... basically she said that she thinks we should talk about how the younger, less developed parts of me can still get their needs met while i function as an adult (sitting up, talking to her like i do when we talk about other things).......... well, that just seems like an oxymoron to me. To me, functioning as an adult has always meant disregarding and ignoring the childish needs and wants and emotions I still have and that I should be independent/self-sufficient... I guess I'm just confused about this whole thing. How do I access the more vulnerable parts of me without reverting to the childlike mindset (hence the laying down)? I know she doesn't want me trying to relive/recreate the situation... but I don't know how to do this without going there... I can't even fathom it. And what do the needs of a figurative emotional five year old look like, anyway? How do we meet those needs without feeling like a little kid? Or how do I function as an adult and feel the things the little girl in me feels? Any thoughts here? Am I making this too hard?

-CT

Hi CT

quote:

functioning as an adult has always meant disregarding and ignoring the childish needs and wants and emotions I still have and that I should be independent/self-sufficient... I guess I'm just confused about this whole thing. How do I access the more vulnerable parts of me without reverting to the childlike mindset (hence the laying down)? I know she doesn't want me trying to relive/recreate the situation... but I don't know how to do this without going there... I can't even fathom it. And what do the needs of a figurative emotional five year old look like, anyway? How do we meet those needs without feeling like a little kid? Or how do I function as an adult and feel the things the little girl in me feels?

Holy, this is SO one of my dilemmas. I'm going to be watching this thread to see if I can learn the answers to your questions too. I find it so frustrating that I can't get 'there' and I think that the frustration I feel in regards to it is something that causes great hurt for me, and is damaging my progress, such as it is.
I feel all the time that I'm making this harder than it has to be, but I just don't 'get' it! either.

I hope that someone has some good insight for you

Holly

Thanks for the response Holly. I hate not understanding and feeling like I'm going in circles.

HB-

quote:

CT i completely missed your post on the 16th May and am sorry i did not reply so at least you knew you were not alone. It was such a huge session and i can only imagine what impact it has had on you.

Thanks HB. I know everyone is really busy these days, but it is nice to know I'm not alone. I always appreciate your (and everyone's for that matter) responses.

quote:

what happened is that i started to identify more with the adult part of me than with the child.

This seems SO hard for me to even think about. For so long I was a kid identifying as an adult... and I still feel like that sometimes... like I'm just pretending to be an adult. It's just that now, I'm acknowledging the kid part of me for the first time ever. And I want to be a kid. I want to be young and dependent on my t. I don't want to be an adult at all. It just feels so bad. Before you could identify with your adult part, did you go through a time where you didn't want to function as an adult?

quote:

It is holding those needs gently and kindly instead of denying and rejecting such an important part of yourself. It is opening up to feeling and yet remembering that there is so much more to you today than then when you were tiny.

I understand what you're saying here, and I agree with you wholeheartedly, but part of me thinks this is really backwards... that I have resented and ignored my little girls needs... ever since I was a little girl and could have actually done something about them... and now, I can't go back and recreate/relive/redo them, but I'm supposed to be nice and gentle with them????? That's really unnatural... I feel like since I can't do anything about them, I should just ignore them... it shouldn't matter because I'm not a kid and I can't get those kid needs met.

quote:

the confusion is such an amazing sign of growth and hope.

I wish it felt like it now... I feel so stupid and dense, but thanks for you encouragement.

-CT

I've been doing some thinking and writing since my last post... I'm really angry. I don’t understand this shit anymore… and I don’t understand why I am supposed to tap into this childish shit just to look at it and long for it but not indulge in it. It’s like torture… like my t's saying:

“hey, you, dysfunctional pseudo adult… yeah, you with the thousands of dollars to blow on several years worth of weekly appointments… take a long hard look at this really f***ing big thing you want… this childhood you have always wanted-deep down- but don’t touch it… it wasn’t meant for you. You can’t have it and you will never get it but I really just want you to know first-hand what you are missing... cause it makes for good entertainment… Seriously, go ahead- see it and know it but don’t go there and experience it… learn to express your want for it but don’t hope you’ll ever get it and don’t try to get it from me… I don’t want to go there with you... mmmhmmm, yeah... oh, our time’s up for today”

-CT

CT,

I want to say something encouraging to you, but this whole thing goes against my experience. In an earlier post, you asked if I've always laid down in therapy. Yes, since about the 4th visit or so. In doing so, I am fully accessing my child self. Somehow, when I walk in to her office, a feeling hits me. Sometimes, I'm able to hang on for about 5 minutes or so, then the feeling hits me. Shame or something. I go under my jacket and the blanket, and I don't come back out. I don't care if she told me to, I wouldn't be able to come out. She has so been able to meet me where I am. Just the other day, I was commenting on how I was able to stay "out" for about 10 minutes, then she asked a question that brought me to my child state, and I "went under" (went under my jacket). She asked, "Are you need to access your child?" I said "I don't know." She asked, "Are you wanting to feel like an adult?" Anyway, I'm saying this to say that she understands why I need to go under. She doesn't ask me to stay out. If she did, the shame would be so big that I'd literally RUN out of there.

The adult thing. . . Somehow, even though I access my child in therapy, I'm growing up outside of therapy. I'm 37, and I'm finally beginning to feel and act like an adult. I know what you meant by saying that you felt like you were pretending to be an adult. I'm no longer pretending! It has to do with the attachment that I have with my therapist, and the security that I'm experiencing for the first time in my life. This attachment has developed, because she is capable of meeting me where I am. I lay down, cover up, and she rubs my back as if I'm a child EVERY TIME that I see her, and still I'm growing up, I'm learning who I am, and I'm learning to like that person.

So, I don't quite understand your therapist's point of view, because it is the opposite of my experience. I'm not sure if I'm the right person to be talking to you, because it's hard for me to be objective on this one.

I think about your issues that your going through with your T a lot. How are things now? Did you see her yet this week?

catgirl

HB- Thanks for your response here...

quote:

I started to realise that i did not have to choose one or the other, it was not black and white or particularly clear. I did not have to decide which one i wanted to be, child or adult? I discovered it was really only the judgementalness that was causing the problem, not the feeling or any person or the past or present, it was me judging my feelings and needs as wrong that was the heart of the problem.

...still trying to swallow this one. Thanks for the information and for shariing your experience with me.

CG- Thanks for your support. I sure can imagine that this is difficult for you to sympathize with and comprehend because it goes in a completely different direction than your positive experiences with your t. It's situations like these that remind me that therapy, while similar, is different for all of us.

I had a session today with my t... and I was very angry and sarcastic and pissed off in general. Things are still pretty rough and rocky... but I do see where she is coming from. It has to do- partially- with always having to express my feelings (when I was growing up) in indirect, non-connected, under-the-table ways. I would hide to play or feel safe and would get my needs met while meeting my mother's needs (thus, indirectly). Since the laying down only comes into play for me when I am trying to express or access my childlike self, she said she doesn't want to recreate an environment where I have to try and indirectly get my needs met (by laying on her couch, not really talking and just trying to have her presence make me feel good). She said doing that would be the same as telling me that I have to hide when I talk to her and that isn't true. I may want to hide and feel like I have to hide... but that feeling/fear is old... and it's different with her. She doesn't manipulate or abuse or shy away from intimacy or live in denial... she wants me to learn to directly get my needs me and in the mean time, doesn't want to support something that isn't headed in that direction.

The part that has been really tripping me up as of late is HOW this is supposed to work... how I am supposed to express the feelings and emotions of my little girl while functioning as an adult... well, naturally, it's not as concrete as I thought it was when she first mentioned this whole thing to me. The goal is for all of the child parts of me and the adult parts to move through appropriate emotional development- experiencing a feeling, naming a feeling, delaying reaction to a feeling and verbalizing/expressing the feeling and choosing how to react to it. So basically, instead of experiencing a feeling/thought/emotion in a session and laying down on the couch, sitting with it and being silent she would like me to experience it, be able to name it and describe it and then choose how to react to it (is any of this making sense... it's all knew to me and I have no idea if I am making sense to anyone but me right now).

The biggest problem in the last few weeks is however is that I have built this HUGE wall between my and my t... I won't let her in at all. I'm still very hurt/embarrassed that she ever had to say anything to me about laying down... I feel defensive, like every suggestion she makes is her way of telling me that what I'm doing isn't good enough. It's really annoying but that part of me that learned to protect me by being angry and mean is standing firmly between my t and i.

Thanks for reading and being here for me guys!
-CT

Hi HB. I just wanted to let you know that I always appreciate your support, help and inspiration.

Things have remained pretty rough this week... imagine that, therapy being rough! I caught myself, while writing a letter to my t, saying "I just want to go back to when it felt good to come here!" But then I realized that I don't pay her to make me feel good... I pay her to make me work and to help me get through all of this crap. *sigh*

There is something, however, that I wanted to post about... just to get some thoughts from everyone. In my writing, I've come across a new concept for me... that my t might actually WANT to connect with me. I mean, I've always understood that she wants me to open up and trust her and blah blah blah... but I mean it in the sense that she ACTUALLY has something invested in this whole thing... that it really matters to her if I connect with her or not. I mean, up til now, I've just never questioned my belief that she doesn't give a crap what I do in my sessions as long as I seem to be working...???

What do you guys think? Do you think your t's and/or p's have something invested? Have they seemed to want you to reach the point where you can really, deeply connect with them?

Thanks.
-CT

Hi CT,

In answer to your question, I honestly don't know; but, my gut tells me that T's do love us to some extent--I just can't imagine working with someone for years at such an intimate level with the goal of having it be a healing experience w/out the desire for a genuine connection on some level(some deep level). My T tells me she loves me(in the 'good' way--I do have trouble believing her sometimes, though) and so I do think that she is 'invested' in our relationship. I hope my reply helps...mlc

By the way, I think the posts in this thread are sooo full of information and insights for me, that I want to 'digest' every one of them--I found them all amazingly deep, honest, and raw--you all have an amazing understanding of the issues at hand!!! mlc

quote:

Originally posted by Chronically Transferred:
What do you guys think? Do you think your t's and/or p's have something invested? Have they seemed to want you to reach the point where you can really, deeply connect with them?

I think my T has been putting his heart into me and my healing for quite some time before I came around to figuring that out. For a long time, I would talk about our relationship as being "fake" or "not real" in the sense that it only existed during the sessions themselves. Each and every time he told me that wasn't true. He said that this is his life, he doesn't have some "other life" outside of his work.

He told me: "Our relationship is as real as any other in my view; it has its constraints like all other relationships, but these constraints give it a kind of limitless power in its own domain. ... I get a chance (and have the challenge) to grow with you."

I'm sure that it's different with different people, but I can tell you for sure that it happens and is possible.

(edited to add those pesky paragraph things)

CT or anyone interested for that matter,

Do you feel like the only safe way to get your needs met or the only way you deserve any needs at all is as a child(besides being indirect)? I was reading your posts re accessing and meeting needs, etc. when I thought of this question. For me, the answer would be yes--my adult self deserves nothing--too angry, dirty, etc and my child self is much more 'innocent' and clean so she 'deserves' more(although, she is very needy herself,...) mlc

Hi CT

I think that any 'good' T or P is going to have some kind of connection with you as a person because they need to be able to have that to 'know' you so they can give you the tools you need to help yourself. I asked a T once "What happens if you don't like a patient?" She simply said that she would let them know that she didn't feel she was able to give them the help they were looking for (she said it better than that though ) and refer them to someone else. My guess is that most P/T's are like that, and it would make sense to me that if they didn't have some kind of vested interest in the patient, they couldn't possibly be attuned to them.
I believe my P when she tells me that she cares and that she wants to help me through all this crap. It's the first time I've trusted someone like this, this much and when she gets upset with me because I am being difficult, it's because she knows I can do better and I can be 'there' with her.

My guess is your T is 'there' with you CT, she's just waiting for you to get 'there' too Keep writing your letter .. it sounds like it's answering to all of your fears (b/n you and your T).

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Z-

quote:

"Our relationship is as real as any other in my view; it has its constraints like all other relationships, but these constraints give it a kind of limitless power in its own domain. ... I get a chance (and have the challenge) to grow with you."

I love this! Thank you for sharing it with me.

mlc- I'm glad you're benefitting from this thread. And you asked very good question... you're making me think here!

quote:

Do you feel like the only safe way to get your needs met or the only way you deserve any needs at all is as a child(besides being indirect)?

I don't feel like the only safe way to meet my needs is as a child... it's more like all the needs I feel like I have are child-like; like I don't recognize any "adult" needs (or can't tell the difference). But I don't think of it like the adult me doesn't deserve anything either... i guess I just feel like the childlike needs are more important, more apparent... and that might just be because she (the child part of me) throws bigger fits...?!?!?

I find your answer interesting... that the child you is worthy and the adult isn't. Do you know why that is (if you don't mind my asking)?

SO!- Thanks for sharing your thoughts and for telling me that t's response to your question. I really appreciate it...

I'll be working on my letter some more tonight!

-CT

quote:

What do you guys think? Do you think your t's and/or p's have something invested? Have they seemed to want you to reach the point where you can really, deeply connect with them?

My T has said (and I'm putting it in my own words) that this relationship is not for her personal benefit. She loves me, and she appreciates the love that I give her, but her role with me is like that of a mother (that was her word), to help me to continue to grow and develop so that some day I'm on my own and I don't need her anymore. I asked if it makes her sad when this happens. She said that it makes her very happy, and it's very rewarding. If it can feel so rewarding and happy when clients move on successfully, then it makes sense that the relationship is not for her personal benefit, which isn't to say that she has no personal investment in it.

So, my point with that is to say that I don't think my therapist wants me to deeply connect with her for her benefit.

However, I think she definitely wants to connect with me on a deep level. I think she wants this for my benefit, though. From a lot of the books I've read about therapy, a huge percentage of the success rate has to do with the relationship. It's very important in therapy. I can see how connecting deeply can help heal some of the wounds that many of us carry around.

So, do therapists want us to connect deeply? IMO, absolutely! It helps us to grow and heal, and it helps them to do their job more successfully.

cat

Oh yeah, I forgot to say that it probably depends on the type of therapy, too.

This all makes me think of Shrinklady's writings about right brain therapy. It's through this right brain to right brain connection that healing comes. (I think I got it right, did I Karie?)

cat

mlc,

quote:

Do you feel like the only safe way to get your needs met or the only way you deserve any needs at all is as a child(besides being indirect)? I was reading your posts re accessing and meeting needs, etc. when I thought of this question. For me, the answer would be yes--my adult self deserves nothing--too angry, dirty, etc and my child self is much more 'innocent' and clean so she 'deserves' more(although, she is very needy herself,...)

Through work with my T I am developing a new relationship with both my adult self and my child self. I'll speak of the old relationship that I had. I did feel like the only way to get my needs met were as a child. I felt needy and whiny, and like that was the only way to get my needs met, which is strange, because it NEVER got my needs met. In fact, usually the opposite happened. My child pushed people away by her neediness. She caused rejection, and then she rejected herself. When my child was running the show, which was almost always, I hated myself. I felt like she deserved nothing, because she was bad and wrong. I never felt like she was innocent and deserving. My adult didn't remotely know how to take care of my child. She stayed in hiding most of the time, because she didn't know what to do. The needs of the child were too big, and the feelings of self-hatred were too strong.

Now, I relate much differently with my child and adult. Of course, there are times when the old feelings pop up. I truly care about my child. I would even go so far as to say that I cherish her. I try to take care of her and protect her. I try to not let her come out unless it's safe. I see that the adult me is responsible for meeting her needs, not other people. The adult me is becoming stronger, and beginning to grow up. She's beginning to feel capable of taking care of my child. I am very fond of the adult me. When the adult me comes out, I feel comfortable and safe.

Even though my adult me is growing so much, I am still VERY dependent on my T. I see her twice a week, and talk to her on the phone once a week. I also call her and leave messages for her on the days that I don't talk to her. When I'm with her, I feel my needy child come out more. It's her willingness to meet my needs combined with all of the work that we've been doing that has helped me to come to this place. Another important factor is her care. She truly cares about me. She loves me. Through her care about me, I am learning that I'm worth caring and loving.

So, anyway, that's how my adult and child relate to needs. We'll see if it changes more over time.

cat

Hi CT and CG,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question. CT, to answer your question re: why my adult self doesn't deserve to have needs and why accessing my child self is the safest way to get my needs met...I honestly don't know why...I sorta feel confused with myself right now! I think that as I was becoming an adult, I was becoming more and more invisible in my family(or rather it was safer for me to become invisible the older I got--to minimize abuse, etc). The older I got, I felt I also became more and more untouchable to my big sister(she seemed to not give me hugs anymmore, etc) who was essentially the nurturing figure in my life, certainly not my mother...and, speaking of my mother, the older I got, the colder/angrier I grew at her(the more I became aware at how unnurturing she was), ...and the guiltier I grew...Also, the older I grew, the more episodes of my father and mother not talking to either me or each other occurred....so...with all these events going on with age...I came to feel less deserving, more afraid, and, consequently, less aware of my needs....these are some of my ideas for now... mlc

mlc- I think you made a lot of sense. Of course your child self feels more worthy... that's what you were taught. No one seemed to validate you as you grew into an adult... so I think it's reasonable that you don't know how to value that part of you.

I may be way off base here, so ignore me if I am... but if i were a betting woman, I'd guess there is resentment, too (within your child, directed at the adult part of you)... i.e.- the adult part doesn't get to get her needs met because "everything was going fine until she came along." I don't say that to imply that things WERE FINE... not at all... but as a child who internalized the rejection she was receiving, I think that would be a logical response. Anywho, just a thought.

-CT

Hi CT--I think maybe your idea explains some of my rage... I have soooo much rage within me whenever I think about taking care of myself...and I think this rage blinds me....Thank You so much for your insights...mlc

mlc-

Sorry for not responding... I missed this somehow!

I'm sorry that you find your rage blinding... do you think it helps to name the rage? Like, to separate it yet and say "okay, this is the rage I feel because of x, y or z." It's a hard thing to do- to be able to name it in the moment- but it's something that I've found that can take the power of the hands of my little girl... it kinda lets her know she's been heard and says, internally, "I know your angry and I hear you but it's not okay to try and hurt me."

The thing is the rage is secondary to the heart of the issue... something comes before it and the rage is how that little girl part of you knows to respond. She had good reason to respond that way when you were little, to protect you, but it isn't something she needs to do anymore and that it hard to change.

I'm hope you're doing okay.

-CT

CT--

Thanks for your reply re rage, etc...I was wondering about how your therapy is going, specifically if you are trusting that your T wants to connect with you and how you are thinking your T feels about you now--do you believe your T loves/loved/likes/liked you? I am curious because I learn from seeing how other people resolve issues with their T's and because I am currently having trouble believing my T loves/likes me or if I'm just a patient,etc.(and I wanted to see what others/you believe re: their T's feelings)...(am I making sense?) mlc

Hi mlc. Thanks for asking about my therapy... it's going really well for me right now!

First of all, yes you are making sense. It's quite normal to wonder how our t's see us and if we are a paycheck or something more. I guess I'll answer your question by telling you what's been going down with me and my t lately... sorry if this is gonna be too much info, but it's the best way I can answer you!

A few weeks back, i was talking to my t about how I didn't feel like I could sit there and talk to her about some of the things I was struggling with... I feel this need to hide while I talk (see my earlier posts in this thread for more info). Well, the precursor to me asking the question about what ppl think their t's think of them was something my t said in session. I forget what exactly I said, but she responded with "You don't trust that i can meet your needs this way (sitting across from her, looking at her)- what you want is right in front of you but that's where we differ. You seem to think that you can only be close to me/safe in that one way (laying down)." (that sounds harsh in writing but it wasn't at all in session).

Well, all i knew was I felt really sad when she said the line about me not trusting her... it was almost like she was hurt (for me, not for her). It was then that I got this glimpse that it matters to her if I progress or feel safe... it matters to her that I can trust her... something about the way she talked that one day made me really see that she is trying with me, not just existing in the same room I happen to be in.

I thought about that all week and wrote her a letter about it. I told her exactly what I just wrote and she said "well, you're right, I do care. I am sad, not for me but for you and what you're missing out on."

We then talked about reassurance and why I need so much from her and we got into some really deep stuff- and I started crying. Here's the breakdown, I'm paraphrasing, but my words are in [] and my t's in <>:

[but I want you to tell me that you still like me and that you haven't decided to just not care anymore... I need to hear it from you.] <I give you some sort of praise almost every session.> [Yeah, but that's only once a week. I want it EVERY DAY otherwise your feelings could have expired because of something I've done or said.] <I know you want it more often and that strengthens my notion that the kind of reassurance you want doesn't last very long. The kind I'm talking about lasts much longer> [But isn't it subject to change?] <No. Think about it hypothetically in terms of me being a mother (this was not a stretch for me!)... as a child, if I sing your praises all the time and tell you that you're the best at everything and the prettiest and the smartest, you'll end up always needing to hear that from me in order to feel reassured. But, if I tell you all of those things AND I talk to you about why someone doesn't want to be your friend or about things that are difficult, then you can KNOW that no matter what, as someone who cares about you and wants the best for you, I'll always be in your corner. That is true reassurance and that doesn't change.>

Time was almost up at this point. It was quiet for a minute and I knew I was about to have to get up... but I've had this nagging question that I have REALLY been wanting to ask her for the last several weeks, but I haven't let myself. Finally I was really vulnerable and I just said, "can I ask you one more question?" and she said "sure." I could barely get it out because it was so hard to ask... but I did it, I said "do you love me?" I could tell she was looking right at me... it was quiet for a sec and she said, real softly, "Yeah, I do."

Needless to say I was in shock after this session (the good kind of shock this time). I've done some writing and thinking and this is what I have determined... this is part of what's in the letter I'll give my t this week:

I have been feeling closer to you the last few weeks… not afraid you are going to leave me anymore, but like you really are invested in me and care about me. In fact- and this is the part that I RREEEAAAALLLLYYY don’t want to tell you because I’m afraid you’ll take it back or tell me I’m crazy or that you have no recollection of saying this- I actually felt like you meant it when you said you love me.

Do you know what all that changes for me??? I know nothing about YOU has changed… and I know that love in this context is different than most other love I will experience… but it changes things completely for me. Gone is the fear that you will simply banish me or give up on me… and gone is the threat that I will spill my entire life- my thoughts, fears, passions and flaws- in front of you while remaining meaningless in your eyes.

You know, my mother used to tell me she loved me a lot. She’d tell me in a very needy, clingy way… or she’d tell me she loved me when she really wanted to say thank you… or she’d use it to motivate or punish me. For a long time, like most other things, I’ve lived off of her definition of love… that if I didn’t experience love in the way she taught me to, then it wasn’t really love. But it feels SO amazingly different with you. You aren’t trying to extract good deeds from me or fill yourself up based on what I give back to you. As hokey and corny as this sounds… I feel like you’re teaching me what maternal love is really supposed to feel like. And I believe that is the way in which you love me. And the mere THOUGHT that you think I am worth it… that I deserve your attention… well, it makes me cry. It makes me happy because I have you and it stings because she couldn’t give it to me.

I hope this helps mlc. I hope this not only helps you feel that your t is invested in you, but I hope that you have the courage to ask her. I waited and wondered for a long time... if she'd care if I just randomly died or if she was going to give up in me or if I was no different than everyone else in her office. But what I'm learning is all the stuff that tells me I am worthless... all the awful things I'm afraid she's thinking... those are just really the things I really fear and think about myself. Plus, remember that our t's are human and not impervious. They keep themselves in check (hopefully), but just because they don't show us how they feel the way others do doesn't mean they don't feel for us. A certain level of care/love has to come from them for us to even connect- they have to be open to the connection for it to really work.

Let me know if this helps.

-CT

OMG CT, How absolutely amazing! You put yourself right out there, you were completely vulnerable and your T cradled that vulnerability in her arms when she said she did love you... I am so so happy for you, and even more that it sounds like you totally understand how this matters, why it matters, and the opportunities it's given you to strengthen your relationship with your T and for self-growth. Sorry this is kind of rambling but it really is beautiful.

LTF

HB and LTF-

I'm happy to know that my experience with my t has touched you. I really appreciate your responses... it means a lot to me to know that this seems as good to others as it feels to me. It's amazing the difference it makes to know that she truly cares for me. Now I can look back at all the other things I've questioned or debated in my head about her intentions and see where the love was all along.

That's just it- it's been there... it was just that I wouldn't trust it or hold on to it.

-CT

CT--Thank You sooo very much for sharing this with me...it helps me a great deal to read about what you felt and how you handled your feelings(and how they changed)!!! Your post brought me to tears...for the thoughtfulness, vulnerability, and beauty of it....mlc