(((((((((((TN)))))))))))

TN - I'm sorry. That must have been terribly triggering and upsetting. Sometimes it takes only a single word or tone or familiar situation for the gravity of our past to pull us back down into that dark planet of pain. I hope you will find a way to talk to NewT about this when the time is right for you. Perhaps try rereading his email a few times over the next few days. Sometimes when I am triggered, I cannot "hear" the care in the messages T sends me. Eventually, if I reread them at the right moment, they break through the armor the original, painful reaction caused me to put on...just a thought. Thank you so much for sharing. I have been thinking about you!

((TN)),
I am so sorry to hear about the rupture with your T. I'm sure it feels like a huge let down after all you have been through. I know it must hurt terribly especially with all that is being triggered.

Can I say though, that I am glad you have been able to feel closer to him in the past weeks? I know it hurts, but without having the recent closeness, could this rupture be feeling even worse? Sorry if you want to hit me right now. But it was the first thing that I thought of while reading your post. Well, actually the second....the first was - OOOOH NOOOO!!!
I HATE when they have to cancel - I know how hard that is when you really need them, TN and it sounds like you are needing him right now.
I am sure not having a reason for the cancellation makes things even harder. My T did not disclose a reason to avoid making things about her the first time she cancelled my session and then very quickly learned that it was helpful for me know she was sick, etc. and that it had nothing to do with me. Still difficult, but a little bit of an explanation eases the pain some - at least for me. Maybe you could ask him if he would be willing??? If that would be helpful for you.
I also am really glad you sent the email to him and he responded so kindly even if you aren't able to take it in. Of course it is difficult to take in!! You have been through soooo much with old T!! I am sure he will bring it up in session so you won't have to. Can you talk about it if he does?
Finally, I want to validate the fact the stats is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE thing!! Hated it!! AND.....you said you submitted your assignment just in time.....but TN, you submitted your assignment on time!! That is an accomplishment with all you are dealing with.
I am really sorry you are hurting......I really hope you feel some relief soon! Please keep posting and let us know how your session goes on Thursday.
seablue

(((((((TN))))))

I am so glad you felt you could share with us. I have been with my T for 3 plus years and he has never cancelled on me. I've often thought about it, worried about, angsted about it. Oh what if today is the day his office calls and cancels on me??? It's really only now that I almost feel like I could handle it. And so I totally empathize with how much this is affecting you.

Even though T has never cancelled on me, we've had other ruptures (you know all about those) and going back and talking to him about it has made my relationship with him even stronger. I know you are hurt. And, I know it FEELS like you can't trust him. But my gut tells that you may be learning, if you talk to him about how it may you feel, how to trust someone who is actually trustworthy. And it's going to hurt sometimes and feel different. But from everything you have told us about your T, he IS trustworthy.

(((HUGS)))))

Liese

P.S. I know how much it feels like the abandonment with Old T.

TN,

I am sorry you are experiencing this rupture with T. I know how much it can hurt when a T cancels an appointment with you.

After reading about this, I am thinking that this is actually a good thing. Now I'm sure you are wondering I would say that and here is why: I think a few months ago, had this happened, it wouldn't have been such a big deal to you because you hadn't formed such an attachment to him. I'm not saying it would have been a non-event, but I don't think you would have been as hurt by this. The fact that you are so deeply affected to me means that you have opened your heart to newT....something that at one time, you didn't think you would be able to after it was ripped out and stomped on by oldT.

of course opening your heart also means making yourself vulnerable to hurt feelings and feelings of rejection, abandonment, etc. and that is scary as hell!!!!

However, after reading all that you have written here, I really don't think newT has done anything wrong....but I think it is simply transference you experiencing from your past experience with oldT. Given the traumatic nature of that relationship, specifically the termination, it is to be expected that something as simple as a cancellation due to Ts schedule could be so triggering.

I do hope that you are able to talk about this with him on Thursday as I think there is a lot to be learned from this and it could possibly strengthen your relationship with him.

In the meantime, I hope you know how much we care and I hope that you are kind to yourself.

(((((TN)))))

Can't reply much to this TN, but I do want to send you hugs.

(((((((TN))))))))

TN, I'm so sorry that his cancellation has triggered all this stuff for you. I hope that you are feeling a little bit better tomorrow. I'm so impressed that you managed to get your homework done in the middle of this. Way to go, girl! I know it doesn't feel like it right now, but that is a really big accomplishment.

I'm very glad that you heard back from your T. I hope your session will be ok, and will allow you to feel alright telling him about your feelings around this, and why the way he put certain things felt so bad. Remember that your T offered you may call- that is because he cares, about that the eamil can be taken wrong way. He wants you to be able to hear the care and compassion in his voice, that's why he offered that. But it's ok if you can't right now. Remember how your T told you to tell him if he ever says or does anything that hurts you or makes you feel sad or bad? Well, now is one of those times. I know it is really really hard. But when it feels right you will be able to tell him how this has affected you.

Hugs, TN... lots of them.

BB

TN - this man is good
1. you can call him if you want to, he is happy with that.
2. you can tell him ALL of this and that is good too, he is happy with that.
3. he genuinely cares about you and truly wants to know a)how you are feeling and b) how upset you are c) and any upset around him and what he does or does not do.
4. He is NOT going to terminate with you. He is too professional and has too much integrity and he is the real mackoy. (do you have such a phrase?)

I know you know all this but I thought I would spell it out.

Also, I really felt my heart hurt when I read your post as of course I could imagine how it would feel for you and I am so sorry it has happened and Thursday does of course feel like an age away so I would just phone him and be kind to yourself.
hugs.

TN,
I know it's going to seem like forever, but Thursday will get here. It's completely understandable that you reacted this way to the cancellation and that it triggered the fears it did. One more reason I'd like to track down your OldT and slap him into next week.

BUT, I know that your T is a different man, who is putting your needs first and when you see him face to face, you'll be able to re-connect. Keep coming here for support to get you through.

((((((TN)))))))

love, AG

TN,

I'm sorry your T had to cancel and even more sorry that it sent you back into the dark place though it is completely understandable. I hope you are doing okay and the waiting is getting easier.

I don't know if you have to talk about your feelings about the cancellation on Thursday but if you decide to I'm sure your T will be acccepting and understanding about your feelings.

Hugs,
Di

Thinking of you TN. One more full day and then Thursday will be here. (((hugs)))

Thank you all so much. I'm touched by all your supportive responses.

I didn't respond earlier because I needed some time to sit with the feelings and emotions that were triggered by his email and the cancellation. I am coming to realize that this is not so much about my T as about my oldT who hurt me so badly by his betrayal. I know a large part of this is transference and the fear that my T will also some day for no identifiable reason send me an email saying "go away". The hurt and damage oldT caused me was just added on top of the pain of my childhood. I know I'm reacting to both but the feelings can be so intense it's hard to separate what is here and now and what it the past.

Jones...thanks for the hugs!

Yaku... you are so right. Sometimes just a word or familiar phrase or action can trigger so much pain from past experiences. That played in big part in my reaction. I've been rereading T's email over the past two days and I do hear more caring in it now. He really paid attention to everything I wrote in my email and he addressed each point I made. He reminded me that our relationship is "absolutely good" and we are solid and "connected" and it was his fault and he was sorry for triggering pain and anxiety. He said everything I needed to hear. The problem was being able TO hear it. I can hear and feel it better now.

PF... I'm not going to force myself to talk about it if I cannot. And it sounds good to just be able to go in there and sit down and absorb the safety of the office and in him. And you are right... oldT would have sent a much different email and probably have been very defensive and detached when I went back to see him in person. Maybe I'm fearing that when I go in because that is what I usually got from oldT... he would be closed and defensive and it became about him and not me.

SB... I would NEVER want to hit you and I thank you for pointing out some good things to me. And thank you for responding when I know you are feeling so down about your T. Yeah it's hard when you can't know why they cancelled. Because it was Sunday I was also afraid he was sick or had some family emergency. I'm not sure he will tell me because we have never hit this boundary before. My gut feeling is that he had to go to court, as he does some forensic work and these things come up suddenly (he has told me this much... that lawyers have no respect for his schedule). Unfortunately, I was so activated that I just went from okay to freaked out w/o being able to reason. And thanks for the sympathy over Stat HW!

Liese...WOW in three years no cancellation? That's amazing. OldT cancelled and moved us around frequently. Used to really piss me off at times, especially when he gave such little notice (like 3 hours). I do know what you mean about mending the disruption and how it can make the relationship seem stronger and safer. I need to remember that. I'm sure we will repair this. I'm not letting him get away THAT easy!

LG... you are absolutely correct. If there was no attachment to my T then it would not matter that he cancelled beyond maybe a mild annoyance. But I have opened my heart to him and allowed him access to it and it is quite scary to acknowledge that. Aside from the fact that I truly never thought it would be possible after as you say oldT ripped out my heart and stomped on it. And as you say this will be a good learning experience and a reason for discussion... if I can get past my fears. As you can probably figure out, any time I think I displease my T I'm afraid it will end up in abandonment. It may take awhile to actually be able to accept that he is not going to leave me. Thanks for your kind words.

R2G... thanks for the hugs. I can always use some hugs!

DF.... yeah it seems that emails about certain things are triggering for me. Maybe I can ask him to call me when he has to cancel. Even if he just leaves me a vm on my cell phone (which would actually be a bonus to have one... I don't have any vm's from him). I think hearing his voice sounding warm and/or apologetic would help me. Thanks for the loving thoughts.

Beebs...I don't know how I got the HW done either LOL. Maybe it was a good distraction. Thank you for reminding me that he said I could call him and that I need to tell him how this makes me feel. He really is good about hearing me. Thanks for the hugs.

Monte...yeah this transference is hell. You don't sound dismissive at all to my pain over this and I think I can almost believe you that my T will make lemonade out of lemons... in that each disrution with him becomes a wonderfully healing experience once I can get to the point of discussion with him. He is damn good with this stuff.

Sadly... you are right, he is the real McCoy. And he keeps telling me he needs to hear about what upsets me and he knows that he will at some point upset me because he is human but that we can talk it over and repair it. Two more sleeps and I will see him again.

Draggers!!......so lovely to hear from you and thank you for those special Dragonfly hugs. Thank you for those kind words and for reminding me that T will look after me. He has done a great job so far...hugs back to you

AG thank you so much and also for wanting to slap oldT into next week LOL. Thank you for hanging in with me through all of this trauma. I know it will be okay... just need to get to Thursday. Hugs to you.

incognito... it is getting easier because I can take in some of the care my T expressed in his email to me. I'm sure we will talk about it... as I can't see him allowing me to get away with avoiding the topic LOL. He can really push at times.

Once again, thanks everyone for the support. It really means alot.

TN

((((TN))))

I'm so glad that you've had time to figure out that this is more about oldT (may the fleas of one thousand camels infest his armpits) than really about *your* T.

I know you are still hurting, but at least you seem a little bit more grounded and less panicy.
Two more sleeps, is it?

BB

TN, glad his email is sounding more comforting as time goes by. I hope you have a good session and are able to really feel the strength of the connection T is talking about.

((((TN))))

you sound like you are in a much better place. Only one more day now, right? It is pretty amazing that I've been with him for this long and there have been no cancellations. He only went away once for two weeks in all that time and that was before I would admit that I was attached to him. Maybe he's had to cancel other people, I don't know.

Just glad for you that Thursday is close and you sound much better.

xoxoxo

Liese

(((TN)))
So good to see your post. I hope you have a good session tomorrow and feel better after seeing him. I know he will be wonderful, as usual.
seablue

Thanks guys... I am feeling better and less freaked out with the transference stuff.

Right now I feel like when I see my T I want to launch myself into his arms for a hug. Of course I won't do that...

The anger has dissipated. Now I just miss him.

Seems like you all have a lot of faith in his ability to handle this and heal me. Thanks for the belief. I'll let you all know what happens tomorrow.

TN

quote:

I'm so glad that you've had time to figure out that this is more about oldT (may the fleas of one thousand camels infest his armpits) than really about *your* T.

Oh Beebs... that really cracked me up. I needed the laugh. Thanks.

One more sleep...

TN

Yep - only one more sleep.
This time tomorrow -
look forward to hearing how it goes
with hugs, S

Hey TN,

Hopefully tomorrow comes very quickly for you. I'm sorry his email triggered you so much, but like the others, I have complete faith in his ability to handle this. He seems so utterly competent. And I also completely sympathize with you on your Stats homework. I just suffered through that class last semester, with a horrible professor to boot. Kudos to you for getting it done in the midst of all of this, as I know that was hard.

(((TN)))

TN,

I'm so relieved to hear that you are feeling better about the situation with T and that you are missing him again although I'm sorry that you miss him. I hope that tomorrow comes quickly for you!! Please update when/if you feel able.

(((TN)))
Thanking of you today. Let us know how it goes.
Seablue

I was just thinking about your session. Hope it goes well. I've somehow become obsessed with everyone else's sessions, as well as my own.

I am just feeling so warm and held right now. Not only because I had a wonderful, deep and connecting session with my T but also because of all of you here who care about what happens to me and who have offered such kind support. Thank you.

Okay... I was really nervous when I got there. It was like I was dying to get there to see him and wanted to flee at the same time. My lovely disorganized attachment kicking in full strength but I was mindful enough to keep in mind all the other times I was upset about something and my T came through. He came out and shook my hand and smiled at me and told me to go in. I saw he had the blinds closed and my blanket on my chair for me, which I immediately clutched to me while thinking that he was so thoughtful to remember this for me.

So he came in and asked how I was doing and I said ... okay... not very enthusiastically... oh and let me add here that he had on my favorite grey sweater which makes him seem even more warm and fuzzy. It was really cold here this morning and I was hoping he'd wear it LOL.

And so he sat down and looked at me and said ... okay, let's talk about what happened and what we need to do to repair this. That made me smile and I said to him... you don't waste time do you? He laughed and acknowledged that. I like that he is so direct. It sure saves time and I get a lot more accomplished in therapy that way. And so I began to tell him how I felt about the cancellation and he told me that he "hated" having to cancel me for a few reasons. One is that he likes meeting with me and didn't want to cancel (okay that had me feeling all warm and fuzzy) and then he said he knew I would be upset and he gave a lot of thought as to how to handle it. He said he tried to give me as much notice as possible and he made sure to tell me that he looked forward very much to seeing me on Thursday. Unfortunately, that echoed an email from oldT just before our horrible termination meeting. My T would have no idea about that and he acknowledged that we would be walking through the mine field that my old T left with me for awhile. Then he said at least 3 times that he was really happy that I sent him that email telling him how I felt. How that was such a good thing to do and that it was very easy to respond to since I was so specific about what had triggered me. So I told him smiling that I knew that most of it had nothing to do with him but that I was obviously having a negative transference reaction to getting that email. He smiled at me and teased me ... saying very very few patients would tell him that in those terms and even be brave enough or smart enough to really understand what that meant. He said he wanted me to hear that he was thinking of me and how I would react and he debated and took time on deciding how to tell me about the cancellation and he was fully aware of the effect it would have and he was very prepared to speak honestly about it today.

I got quiet then and he asked me where I was and told me to come back. I told him I was thinking of something but it was too scary to tell him. He poked at me a bit and I finally told him that I was thinking that maybe next time a phone call would be better... even if he just left a message on my vm. He said that he had considered that but was afraid I would hear nervousness in his voice and take it the wrong way and get even more upset if he could only leave a vm and not get me live on the phone. I asked him why he would be nervous... and he said because he knew he was forced to do something that would upset me. I was very appreciative of his very appropriate self-disclosure and it made me feel very cared for. He said that he would have been more worried if I didn't react to the cancellation.

I then asked him about attachment and if he thought it would be more effective and better for a patient to be directed to use their spouse as an attachment figure instead of the T. He said no because it's too complicated. His first point was that attachment injury happens because of development gone awry in childhood and the patient needs to go back to being that child and would have to make the spouse a parental figure and that would not be appropriate or easy at all. Then he added that it would also be hard for the spouse to deny their own needs to focus only on the patient. I asked about ... what happens if the spouse does not have their own secure attachment how can you earn your own by attaching to someone who is unhealthy and he said.. well it cannot be done. HE then made mention to me that T's who direct their patients to a spouse for an AF are doing it because they fear the attachment themselves and fear dependency and that this is the wrong tack to take. He said if a T denies the attachment/dependency needs then the patient just gets worse. They become more clingy, more needful, more frantic to connect. So then we launched into a conversation about Kohut and Kernberg and the old model of PA therapy. I love talking to him about this stuff. This is a man who clearly LOVES psychology and I soak it all up.

From here we discussed again the trauma from my termination on that horrible day when my oldT called the police and how awful it was for me. He moved in closer and ran and got me a new box of tissues. He is so gentle and caring. After that we talked about some new action I want to take next week with regard to contacting my lawyer.

At the end of the session he shook my hand and I said to him "thank you for making up with me" and he said he's glad that we did and then he paused and said... if you told this to oldT it would have freaked him out and I nodded and said that's true and then added... but isn't it nice I can say this to you. He said yes it's nice and then he patted my arm which I love.

I just feel really good and happy right now. He did give a lot of thought to me and it made me feel that I really AM his patient and that I belong there with him and that he didn't cancel me lightly at all. I love his honesty and his openness and he never gets defensive. We both realized and openly acknowledged that most of this was from what happened with oldT but some of it was between us. And that it was okay to talk about.

That's about it. I feel so much lighter now and I look forward to seeing him on Monday.

TN

TN, getting warm fuzzies myself just from reading this. I love the sound of your T every time I read about him. Thanks for asking the AF question for us all here. His answer makes perfect sense to me. What I wouldn't give for a handshake or pat on the arm from my T. The whole session sounds so connecting. SO happy for you!!!

Thanks Yaku. Your T does not shake hands? Did you ever discuss it? Have you talked about touch in therapy at all? Just wondering. It took me a full year to shake hands with oldT. I was the one who got enough courage to extend my hand the day before Christmas. He he was celebrating Chunakah and I was celebrating Christmas and he was also going in for some surgery which I was very nervous about and I was compelled to touch him before the long break. And so I extended my hand and he took it warmly and graciously and we shook for what seemed like a long time. In fact, it was more like he was "holding" my hand than shaking it. And so now you know.......why my avatar is the handshake one. It was a truly pivotal moment for me in therapy.

I was glad I could ask the AF question because it truly was on my mind and I sort of fretted about maybe steering people wrong on here about it so I needed to clarify with a professional.

Thanks for your comments.
TN

I don't know if he doesn't do handshakes. I'm sure I must have shook his hand when I met him for the first time (when I attended one of H's sessions). However, no, the only physical contact I can ever remember is him tapping my shoulder when I had my iPod turned up and my eyes closed to drown out the anxiety the lobby gives me. The last two sessions, he has sat on the floor with me, but he purposefully moves to the other side of the room from me when he does that. So, it feels like a chess match. I'm moving closer and he moves away. We haven't talked about these things in person, but from my journal entries, he knows that he is stirring up a desire for safe physical closeness and how it made me feel when he went to the other side of the room...but he still did it again a few days after he read about it. Maybe he didn't remember, maybe he wants me to ASK or maybe that is just a very real boundary for him (especially with a woman who has just started connecting with some trauma and feeling very unsafe about it). It would hurt me too much to ask and be rejected. It is my own fault, though, because I know he is not willing/able to answer questions unless they are asked very directly and usually in person. It's making me feel very untouchable, though. Like I've said, I've told him that revealing my wanting physical contact is incredibly scary, because I feel so certain of rejection and I wonder what I've done to be reliving that same neglect (literally have no memories of affection/physical contact with my mom during childhood and my dad was hello/goodbye hugs and playing sports) again and again. So, I don't feel like I can have courage to ask that from him, because "No, I can't," would hurt too much right now. I'm such a coward.

PS - Sorry, did not mean to make this about me. That probably would have been better in a PM. Please ignore it, just clarifying that it's my issue, not T's.

Yaku you are not a coward at all. Not a bit. I see you approaching your therapy and the trauma with huge courage. I think a lot of Ts are very careful with patients with trauma histories. It's hard for them to know when touch feels safe or threatening or may be triggering. With oldT we eventually progressed to hugs the last year I was with him... but we discussed it and I let him know how I felt about it and where I stood with it and what it meant to me.

Finally experiencing safe touch was extrememly healing for me. It made me feel less "untouchable" and toxic. I remember after one very difficult session where we spoke about abuse, he hugged me at the end and it made such a difference in containing the emotions and the fallout from that. He also told me while hugging me that I was very brave and to never underestimate myself.

My current T shook hands from the moment we met and he shakes once upon arriving and then when I leave, sometimes adding the arm pat or rub. The first time we shook hands I asked him "are we allowed to do this?" and he laughed and said "of course, and please call me (first name). I was so nervous and shell shocked during that time period from the termination that it was a hugely important thing he told me because I was deeply in self-hate mode and aside from that felt I'd never find another T who would touch me, considering what happened with oldT.

This is a really complicated subject and is different for each dyad. As AG will tell you, she had to be prepared to hear a "no" whenever she asked for something hugely important and I think that is a good rule to follow. Of course, hearing a no should be followed by a thorough discussion on why it is a no and the T should allow you to share your feelings about it too.

TN

TN,

Thanks for sharing your session with us. I wish you lived in my neck of the woods and I could see your T, too!

Thanks for asking him about AFs and getting his clarification on it. I was afraid of what he was going to say, and don't especially like his answer, because I think it is what I've known and felt to be true from the start. Sort of a hard pill to swallow, I guess you might say. I don't know how my T would react to that answer, but I need to know her honest opinion and will do my best to find out tomorrow.

Thanks again! Enjoy the good feelings from your session.

MTF

((((TN)))))

So glad things turned out so well but from what you tell us about your T, I am not surprised. I am just so amazed that you are handling all this so well. You, IMO, have made so much progress in such a short time really, in terms of OldT.

TN,

Amazing. You and your T both. I'm so happy to hear that it went well and that you feel such a connection to your T again.

Totally agree with him on the AF issue. My T agrees with him as well.

TN,
Could not be more pleased for you. Soak it up. You deserve all of his care and all of the warmth it brings. Thanks for sharing your session.
seablue

Oh, it's so nice to read about how kind and understanding your T is...you deserve all of that and more, and I'm so glad you're getting it. Please don't ever hesitate to post about your sessions, because I think it's supplementing my own therapy (even though I love my T).

So pleased for you, TN.

this is lovely to read TN. Happy for you. Thank you for so generously using your time with your T to ask the question about spouses as attachment figures. I think a person would have to have a spouse that is a living saint, already totally affirmed, and able to lovingly put all of their own needs aside- in order for that concept to work. I don't think there are too many people alive who would be capable of the kind of self-sacrifice that would entail.
It's so kind of you to ask the question for those of us who are struggling with T's who seem to promote this concept, or parts of it. I think it is a very idealistic view for a T to take, and not allowing for human weakness and need. I do wonder about, if it is more that they want the H to be supportive of the process- and trying to do their own work- rather than to become the AF... there is where I get confused.

I like your T. Thanks for sharing.

Love you,

BB

Dear TN,

Thank you for sharing this lovely rupture-repair work with us - it is really a wonderful thing to see and absorb. I know with Curly-T that I got incredible growth out of our work, not because she was especially steady as a T, or well-fitted to me, she wasn't especially though she was good enough that she wasn't damaging to me. But she was GREAT at the repairs, and that was something I don't think I ever had experienced that way before. It has stayed with me and been a really big part of my growth - because I am no longer as afraid of ruptures of any kind.

Of course I want to join in on this conversation about spouses and attachment. And to thank you too, for bringing this up for your T's perspective.

quote:

I then asked him about attachment and if he thought it would be more effective and better for a patient to be directed to use their spouse as an attachment figure instead of the T. He said no because it's too complicated. His first point was that attachment injury happens because of development gone awry in childhood and the patient needs to go back to being that child and would have to make the spouse a parental figure and that would not be appropriate or easy at all. Then he added that it would also be hard for the spouse to deny their own needs to focus only on the patient. I asked about ... what happens if the spouse does not have their own secure attachment how can you earn your own by attaching to someone who is unhealthy and he said.. well it cannot be done. HE then made mention to me that T's who direct their patients to a spouse for an AF are doing it because they fear the attachment themselves and fear dependency and that this is the wrong tack to take. He said if a T denies the attachment/dependency needs then the patient just gets worse.

I think all of what your T says here makes a lot of sense *in certain contexts*. But I want to suggest that we need to be really careful about what we draw from this. For a start, not everyone has the same degree or kind of attachment difficulty.

But more importantly, if we pick up the problems someone might be having from a relationship therapy angle, or even from an individual therapy angle where the relationship is causing active difficulties, there are many situations where it will be counterproductive to ignore the relationship, or to leave the relationship alone until the partners have sorted out their attachment issues separately with their therapists (assuming they both have them - which is not often the case). So while I don't think you are saying 'ignore the relationship', I also think there are many important reasons a therapist will say 'hey, it's time to look at the relationship', and there are many complex things that happen inside clients when they do say that - including our avoidant attachment patterns.

I take the point that a partner is not an attachment figure in the same way as a therapist is. At the same time, though, *we are attached to our partners*. One way or another. And the proof of this is that *we play our attachment patterns out with them*, just as they play theirs out with us.

A big moment for me in my therapy, and my relationship, was realizing that I was 'switched off' from my husband. That a lot of the time it seemed like he didn't even exist in my inner world. And that that was because I was afraid of the relationship. Whenever he did something that hurt me, I switched off. Whenever I felt abandoned or in danger of being abandoned, I switched off. It didn't *feel* like attachment, it felt like nothingness - because it was the flip side of the anxious attachment I do with my conscious attachment figures. It was/is avoidant, and it protected me from feeling hurt by him, longing for him or missing him - this person who is in practical terms in *every part of my life*, yet seemed to not exist. My therapists have gently guided (are gently guiding) me to attend to this kind of thing, and although my H has his own strong attachment issues, this work has altered our relationship, considerably, for the better - because we are now not both running from each other all the time. There is a sense in which we have had to allow ourselves to be attached, or to recognise the attachment, and accept the risk (yes, it's a risk) and to move closer, rather than further away.

Gotta go, but I hope these thoughts are all just grist for the discussion mill. This is important stuff that affects so many of us, and I am glad we can talk about it from our different perspectives.

love,
Jones

quote:

not everyone has the same degree or kind of attachment difficulty.

You are correct here Jones. And I guess I should say that in my case, it was my attachment issues that were causing the problem and there are not any really big problems on my dh's end of things. What has happened in my therapy with oldT (and my current T agrees with me) was that as I was healing my attachment injury I was also opening up more and sharing more within my marriage and less fearful of the closeness with my dh. He was not pulling away or shutting down on me I was doing that to him. As I was feeling more self-esteem, more secure in myself I was able to move closer to my dh and we were enjoying this new closeness and sharing and began to do more things together, even with my son.

I can see where in some marriages if there are issues on both side and both are either pulling away or shutting down and closed off from the relation it would probably be a good idea to focus on that as well as the attachment healing within therapy. My T did say that attachment does come into play when we select our romantic partners and that in some capacity they do function as part of the attachment process. But I think to turn away a patient from attaching to the T at all and to only focus on the marriage and the spouse to heal attachment is not the answer either. And I wonder what is to be done when the patient "already" has the attachment to the T? Rejection of this attachment seem like it would be hurtful and damaging to the patient by reenacting a deprived childhood.

I honestly don't know what the answer is and perhaps the answer is that there are different answers for different situations. Maybe this is a judgement call on the part of the T depending on the state of the relationship between spouses? What do you do if the spouse refuses therapy but has issues? Do you try to attach to someone who has their own attachment injury?

So many facets to this situation. Thanks, Jones, for making me think further on this. I guess the bottom line is how each of us personally feels about how our therapy is conducted. If it feels good then chances are it's the right choice, if it feels wrong and we are suffering and not making progress then maybe it's time for a reevaluation.

TN

Jones,

Very good points. I agree that my spouse is definitely someone that I'm attached to and my attachment issues play out in our relationship. I cannot however use him as my AF in the sense of healing the child parts of me and relying on him to be my therapist and help to heal me. That wouldn't work, but being able to attach to him and rely on him as a spouse certainly helps me in my healing and is also being helped by my healing that I'm doing in T.

Jones: "I also think there are many important reasons a therapist will say 'hey, it's time to look at the relationship', and there are many complex things that happen inside clients when they do say that - including our avoidant attachment patterns."

I think this applies to my situation. It helps to have words on it.

Excellent points, Jones and TN and STRMS- You guys know that I'm dealing with this kind of issue in my therapy right now. My take has been that it's just not the same for every person. My path is just different because, my T says that my H's baggage is just as bad as mine, and we are in a situation where neither of us has *anything* to give emotionally. I wish I could describe how bad it is. There is *nothing* between us, except for like- two acquaintances who can have an interesting conversation once in awhile.

1. I am not attached to my spouse in any way, shape, or form- I would leave him tomorrow if I could without feeling much of anything, except relief at not having to carry him emotionally anymore- and fear- how will I provide for my kids. There is really nobody there for me to love. Clearly this is *not* a good situation for either of us to be in every day, and expect to make progress in therapy. My h doesn't love me, either, though he is convinced that he does, and that I am a horrible person.

2. I do not draw on him as a means of emotional support and do not share my inner world with him at all, nor does he share his- at all- except on the purely intellectual level.

3. My H is in very serious need of therapy himself, yet he won't go "without me." I function as a parent to him, myself- but a very dysfunctional parent, as I have my own attachment problem.

So- if my threads have added to the confusion- well, I'll just say that I am thoroughly confused on the issue myself! My own T wants me to practice learning how to give feedback to my H, by doing it with him, first. Maybe the kind of emotional healing I need isn't going to be possible for me, unless I leave my H. I'm not willing to do that though- I just can't, though I'll admit I'm severely tempted.

oh dear- I really hope this is adding to the conversation, and not hijacking!